When judges are not primarily appointed to and don't act to serve justice or a constitution, but to deliver for political ideologies, it's an obvious weak point in a democracy. And when, in addition, crimes they allegedly commit, such as perjury, are investigated or not investigated, or are considered important or unimportant for purely partisan reasons, there's very little confidence to be had in the institutions they are purportedly an integral part of.

That goes for Presidents too. If Clinton was found to have perjured himself, he should have been removed from office (as Republicans insisted). If Kavanaugh perjured, he should not be allowed to be a judge at any level. If you can't establish some reasonable standard of ethical requirements for political or judicial appointees that applies to both sides then you don't have the basics of a properly functioning democracy in place.

The same goes for credible allegations of misconduct. There needs to be an objective and fair process that protects both the accuser and the accused, and a comprehensive and independent investigation should be a part of that along with a suspension of judgement (especially among politicians) until that's completed.

So, Republicans "win" this partisan fight. Democrats may "win" the next one. But as a country, America and its institutions continue to lose. That's not something anybody should be celebrating.

The bit about perjury being OK, but only for judges, won't go down too well anywhere in the developed world outside the US for sure.

:zip:

Merging doesn't actually happen that often. The recent proliferation of religion-related threads has been unusual though and called for some action.

Why, thank you m'am. :hearts: :flower:

That sounds good. I thought too that SK's side of things was fading so essentially as long as it's clear enough at the start what follows what, then Sap's discussion is still fully viable.

Ok, I'm guessing no objections forthcoming re arsewine's banning, so closing this.

Banned @aserwin for low quality.

(Ths discussion was accidentally deleted and has been restored (I hope fully). If anyone has a comment missing, please PM me.)

:D

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/kavanaugh-classmate-tears-into-him-over-drinking-denial-ive-witnessed-him-stumbling-drunk/

Brookes told Cuomo she and “a number” of her Yale colleagues were “extremely disappointed in Kavanaugh’s characterization of himself and the way that he evaded his excessive drinking questions.”

“There is no doubt in my mind that while at Yale he was a big partier, often drank to excess,” she said. “And there had to be a number of nights where he does not remember. In fact, I was witness to the night that he got tapped into that fraternity, and he was stumbling drunk in a ridiculous costume saying really dumb things. And I can almost guarantee that there’s no way that he remembers that night.”
...
At the end of the interview, Brookes accused Kavanaugh of “blatant lying.”

I generally can't stand Alan Dershowitz, but he takes a reasonable non-partisan position in this article and should be commended for that:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/09/27/alan-dershowitz-postpone-kavanaugh-confirmation-until-fbi-can-investigate-accusations-against-him.html

The American Bar Association is now calling for the nomination process to be put on hold, and for the FBI to investigate. And Alan Dershowitz, of all people, is seconding their motion. — Pierre-Normand

This is really the only way to go. Brushing this whole thing under the carpet now and "ploughing through" is just wrong. Whatever the explanation for this mess, it needs to be thoroughly searched for. I don't see how any fair-minded person could be against that. A simple "yes" or "no" without more information is going to rip the country to pieces and would be little more then a pyrrhic victory for either side.

Why doesn't that surprise me...

I don't know. I've been very interested in politics, particularly the U.S., for a long time, but the level of poisonous hatred and dishonesty out there at the moment, brought into sharp focus during these testimonies, I find increasingly disturbing. Things are in danger of becoming truly dysfunctional, and I think we need to take that very seriously and do our reconciliatory bit where possible to work against it.

Odd. Never heard of that. Innocent me...

Just want to add here, btw: Whatever anyone thinks about either of the two main protagonists in this case, the sheer scale of emotional destruction caused by this whole thing is horrible. Just on a purely human level, no matter what happens with the vote, this is not going to be a victory for anyone.

These are not incompatible beliefs — Rank Amateur

Yes, it's consistent with him being drunk and not remembering doing it. And it's consistent with her making a mistake about it being him. However, he paints a picture of himself as almost certainly not even being at that party, and she says she's 100% sure it was him. I think Mark Judge is key. If he was really in the room, it's highly unlikely he doesn't remember what happened. Refusing to subpoena him and ruling out the FBI though make it very easy for him to maintain his denials and almost impossible to fully resolve the issue. It looks most likely we'll be left in that limbo with Republicans quickly voting Kavanaugh through and the public not getting fair closure. Even more polarization and animosity to ensue.

↪Bitter Crank Sorry for calling you a shithead. — frank

New rule. It's OK to flame Karlaclaus. He probably deserves it. :fire:

I imagine the second from the left on the top row is what you look like--on a good day. — Bitter Crank

I don't have that much hair even on a good day.



Ok, so you're a cross between Karl Marx and Santa Claus. :100:

Yes. Good points.

Sen. Flake: "In the end there is likely to be as much doubt as certainty going out of this room today." "As we make decisions going forward, I hope that people will recognize that...and just have a little humility."

Looks like a pointed rebuke of Graham's hyperbolic and unjustified rant. And an indication he's going to go "no".

(None of those look as pissed off as Lindsey Graham did during his meltdown by the way.)

The second from the left on the bottom is pretty much what I envision you look like.

That's the Republican spin, but Feinstein was directed by Ford not to release the information and there's no evidence she did. Also, according to Ford, her friends knew about it and word could have got out to the media from there. She had a journalist come snooping around her house just before she went public. We don't know how it got out.

He's falling apart on the issue of an FBI investigation. He obviously doesn't want one nor do any of the Republicans. Looks bad.

Nothing beats the Fox News comments page for depravity:

"Hyphenated Ford listen up. No matter where you go, no matter where you work, no matter where you live, no matter what you do, you will always have a much deserved target on your back. You will be taken out one way or the other.."

She'll go down in history. The lowlifes who put her through this will fade into oblivion.

I need a new world that's less ugly and vile, and has more people like Christine Blasey Ford in it.

It descends into absurdity when Republican Senator Cornyn says her testimony is "fine" but there are no corroborating witnesses... Would that be, for example, because you and your team refused to subpoena Mark Judge, who was in the room at the time, to testify, by any chance?

Unsurprising that he's not taking one then.

Decency is winning.

On the positive side when even Fox News can now say this:

Chris Wallace: "This was extremely emotional, extremely raw, and extremely credible... This is a disaster for the Republicans."

The writing is on the wall.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/christine-blasey-ford-gives-blistering-testimony-at-hearing.html

“I have had to relive my trauma in front of the entire world, and have seen my life picked apart by people on television, in the media, and in this body who have never met me or spoken with me,” she said, before proving her strength. “Those who say that do not know me. I am a fiercely independent person and I am no one’s pawn. My motivation in coming forward was to provide the facts about how Mr. Kavanaugh’s actions have damaged my life, so that you can take that into serious consideration as you make your decision about how to proceed.”

You'll see it on Youtube later. It's brave and beautiful.

What powerful and moving testimony though. :pray: Nobody can watch this and be anything but disgusted at the way this woman has been attacked and misrepresented. :sad:

And
"The FBI should have investigated your charges as they did in the Anita Hill hearing, but they did not," Durbin said to Ford. "Mark Judge should be subpoenaed from his Bethany Beach hideaway and required to testify under oath, but he has not."

He continued: "Judge Kavanaugh, if he truly believes there's no evidence, no witnesses that can prove your case, should be joining us in demanding a thorough FBI investigation. But he has not."

Wonder why? Ans: They don't want the truth.

Blasey Ford is now speaking. Everyone should watch this.

Yes, one basic of discussing an issue is you know the basic facts concerning the issue. I have no idea why you think that's unreasonable and not knowing what happened is Ok. But fine, let's leave it at that.

But those death threats she's receiving are worth billions. And who wouldn't want to go into hiding?

Look @Jake, I'm not going to discuss this with you any further until you at least go and read Blasey Ford's letter outlining her allegations as we can't have a sensible conversation until you know what you're talking about.

Those perceptions of smear job motivation are reasonable, given the highly precise timing of the claims. — Jake

No, they're not reasonable because they are based on an ignorance of the circumstances surrounding the history of the case. Do you know why that is? Or are you going to ask me to repeat the facts that strongly mitigate against Ford's major motivation being to politically smear Kavanaugh? Because I already outlined them.