The dual connotations of the end of the world have to do with the dual meanings of the word itself - "end". In Greek, this is telos - as a field, it's teleology - which is purpose-oriented inquiry. This connection comes up in all kinds of ways. It's not merely semantic - if you are willing to adopt the eschatological view, the end doesn't result in the purpose, the end is completely identified with the purpose.

The end of the road is necessarily where the road is headed, or the purpose of the road. I don't really undestand the idea that it's "only the journey that matters." - isn't the destination integral to that journey? How can one possibly enjoy a journey to a miserable end?

Well, here are a few logs for the fire that may help to shine some light on the logical architecture of the end of the world. References are easily searchable but included here for easy reference.

One of the axioms that guide this thread is "as above, so below"[1] that there are powerful, even determinative correlations between micro and macro.

Another is MLK Jr's famous line, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" [2]- that regarding certain universals, its presence or absence in any part qualitatively affects the whole.

The final one is this, from Talmud: Why was man created alone? Is it not true that the creator could have created the whole of humanity? But man was created alone to teach you that whoever kills one life kills the world entire, and whoever saves one life saves the world entire.[3]

You may not agree with any of the above, but each of these axioms has an admirable pedigree. Add mortality to any or all of them, and you get eschatology - which - like all fields of inquiry - presumes the existence of the subject. Those of you, like Philosophym, who equate end times with unicorns, will be unhappy here, or maybe just want to be contentious, thinking that contention leads to enlightenment. That's not how I read great philosophers - they build on foundations, posit further axioms, and develop them in concert with others. Argument means logical structure, not necessarily conflict. Ask a geometer to prove that points exist, and you miss the whole science and art. It's similar with eschatology.

But it's also *really* different. Say, "I'm dying", and it's common to get expressions of sympathy, or at least interest*. Say, "The world is dying", and it's common to get "speak for yourself."(See above). You might remember Cassandra, cursed with perfect knowledge of the future and universal incredullity. So, a good question is: What good does it do, even if true, to discuss how things change at the end of the world?

I believe a world of good, but that's what we're here to find out, and I think it's quite doable. Let's start. For example, one of the things that happen at the end of the world is a routine violation of basic human rights. One true story that sticks with me is a feverish man in a German camp that reaches out from his barracks to get an icicle from the overhang to quench his thirst. The guard, seeing this, knocks the icicle into the snowbank. The man, near his end, asks the guard "Why?" The German says in response, "Why? There is no why here."

If there is a "why" to common human decency that matters to us now, if similar encounters await us, how will we survive the loss of it? Or do you have a "why" that you believe will endure, and keep you a decent human?


*unless everyone around you is dying, when they will likely say "Shut up about it already" There's a memorable Simpsons episode where the family has all been turned into delicious treats with bites out of them, sitting in the fridge. Bart asks, "Am I the only one here in horrible pain?" Homer says, "No, but you're the only one who won't shut up about it."
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_above,_so_below#:~:text=%22As%20above%2C%20so%20it%20is,visible%20or%20invisible%20to%20astronomers . (fascinating history there)
[2]https://tssw.tulane.edu/news/injustice-anywhere-threat-justice-everywhere
[3]https://www.ushmm.org/remember/holocaust-reflections-testimonies/echoes-of-memory/to-save-the-world-entire

Perhaps, Joshs, that's true. Some people do have a perverse desire to see harm inflicted on anyone else, whether or not they deserve it. But wouldn't you agree, that in principle, justice requires that people who have inlficted suffering on others have suffering inflicted on them?

Perhaps the apocalypse satisfies that need. It also may satisfy a need not for justice, but for mere simplicity, and the end of perplexity.

Question for you, though - do you think that all apocalyptic views were developed for personal psychological needs or self-justification? How can one tell genuine eschatological prophetic views* from "doom porn"?

*For the purposes of this conversation let's provisionally agree they exist - say someone last Thursday night in Mayfield, Kentucky had nightmarish views of the future

Interesting question, John - is the end of the world the end (as in purpose) of religion? Or is it the other way around - is it the end of religion that some see as the end (as in purpose) of the world?

This is why for a conversation, acceptance of my premise is so necessary - that the end of the world is here. "The end" - as in completion or final state - of anything is deeply connected to the purpose of that thing. This is why apocalypse has the multiple meanings of "final moment" as well as "unveiling". Deep contradiction there - if it's veiled, how is it ending? Has it even begun? And what is over and done with, exactly, except the covering?

I wish I could answer it - but which ends which is one to ponder. Does the world end the religious viewpoint, or does the religious viewpoint rest on the end of the world?

I don't quite understand though what book you meant...

Please see above for the numerous invitations to those who disagree to follow other threads. . For those who know, no evidence for my premise is needed, For those who don't, no evidence for my premise will help. As great as your appetite seems to be, I didn't post here merely to disagree with others regarding with my reasons for posting here.

Last thought for the night: Has anyone read Timothy Morton? My wife studied him and there seem to be some resonance between his work and the work I was looking to start. Anyone read him and could help me understand him? See below if you want a quick intro.

https://biotoopia.ee/timothy-morton-and-the-end-of-the-world/

Seriously, Tom? I only gave diagnoses when asked, and even then, I didn't do it for free. Among philosophers, let's keep this a diagnosis free zone. I'll assume you're writing in good faith - I just ask you return the courtesy.

I didn't mention burning people just for shock value - my grandfather died fighting those who burned millions - including much of my extended Jewish family. It's not hyperbole, and if you want to research the frequency of people burning when an empire, or Reich, or teikoku, falls, please - be my guest. Cities on fire is the insignia of the Fall. It's what happens.

That said, I'm a firefighter and as a clinical counselor spent several months on various disaster relief deployments - mostly hurricanes. Believe me, I'm not writing to dramatize. It's just wise to remember the fires are real - and imagine, if you haven't experienced it - what collapse actually smells like.

I've often heard of it - and was tempted to take a loo. A child of the 80's, I was a bit skittish about watching another The Day After, but I should be able to handle it now. Now I just need to find the time away from my 6 year old :)

Agreed, CM - what is your understanding of what the recovery process from such a worldview might be?

Outlander,
The wise men I speak of were pretty distressed by the end of the world they knew, even if they were able, to make sense of their world's end- and in some ways - sow the seeds of the next one. They weren't quite as serene as whoever it is you are quoting. Here are two wise men worth listening to.

Here's Pliny the Younger, witnessing the sudden, violent destruction of Pompeii:

“In the darkness you could hear the crying of women, the wailing of infants, and the shouting of men. Some prayed for help. Others wished for death. But still more imagined that there were no Gods left, and that the universe was plunged into eternal darkness.”

And here's Kurt Vonnegut in Slaughterhouse Five, an eyewitness to the firebombing of Dresdent:

“It is so short and jumbled and jangled, Sam, because there is nothing intelligent to say about a massacre. Everybody is supposed to be dead, to never say anything or want anything ever again. Everything is supposed to be very quiet after a massacre, and it always is, except for the birds. And what do the birds say? All there is to say about a massacre, things like "Poo-tee-weet?”

In your defense, the "all things come and pass" view was one the main character of that novel, Billy Pilgrim, ultimately seemed forced to take, wtih the inhuman Tralfamadoreans (sp?), but it seemed to cost him his sanity, and his freedom. While the aliens may represent the embodiment of eternal wisdom, Billy himself, war-damaged survivor that he was, became a pet in their alien zoo.

Wise men who have seen even "mere" cities end seem to be far more affected by events similar to the unreal things we may soon be forced to see than we might anticipate. Does no-one remember the the rain of falling people from the twin towers? How might we also be affected by the repetition of these scenes across countless cities?

When worlds end, worldviews go with them - doubtless, in no small part due to the images burning in the minds of those who saw things they never wish to tell, but cannot unsee. So, while it's day, shouldn't we be collecting, testing, and distilling durable meaning, instead of arguing over whether or not we believe it will ever get dark?

John27,

As much as I do appreciate your offer to receive a story of my own, here at the end of the line, my storylines are - for the time being - at their end as well. I wonder if all stories end here, the way dreams end at waking. Unless sleep catches up with us, of course. If stories are dreams, and waking from these stories is life, that second sleep is death. So, perhaps arriving at the end of the line awake and alive is also learning to live between storylines - as risky as that can be.

I have no new tales to tell, just a desire to see the darkness for what it is, and some companions to share in the light.

I do have the stories that were told me - some are asking to be told - but not yet - they’re not ready, I’m not ready, and their time is - you probably guessed it - not yet. As you can tell from the comments above, there are many itching ears, but not much hunger for the truth. Good stories, the best stories, need some time and some quiet before they can be heard.

Right now, I'm just looking for new arrivals.

It appears from the comments above that most of you don't think it's winter. If it's "summer down there," please, eat, drink, be merry. You obviously have better places to be.

I'm 51, a classics professor and counselor for many years, training to become a Jewish chaplain. I have seen countless clients end their worlds in many ways, and have come to the end of my own. In my admittedly limited read of classics for the last 30 years, I have seen many sing songs of ending. A third of the Old Testament consists of warnings and hope. Odysseus and Aeneas both, though commissioned and favored by the gods - for most, including their crews and companions and hosts, were harbingers of doom. Dante, while guiding his readers onward, understood that the way to Paradise was through the basement of Hell. This is why I'm writing.

For some of you, talk of the end seems childish. And so it should - as St. Exupery knew, often it takes a child to see and state the obvious. In modern times, most adults have learned not to talk about the obvious, although they re-enact the fall of the culture in countless personal ways. If it seems childish and not worth your time, you can move along. No one is keeping you here.

Even for those who might think our ad infinitum progress has essentially ended "the end of the world," and that apocolyptic is a paleolithic perspective, life stage, or psychological syndrome, you may want to ask why apocalyptic visions have been so carefully preserved for millennia, presumably by those who found them valuable. If you don't find them necessary, as I said, you are invited to steer by other stars and sail on. In the words of L. Cohen, "You wouldn't like it here. There ain't no entertainment, and the judgments are severe."

Perhaps you'll remember you had this chance to talk it out when the death tolls rise and rise, but then again, probably not. For those of you who've read Jenkinson, you know most fight the reality of death until their last breath, perhaps because - like you said, Mad Fool, they've been dying for a long time, and maintaining appearances is all they have left.

For those who *are* here, who don't see Winter as nihilism or the end of the world as a psychological disorder, have a seat. The modes of cultural winter are different, and that matters. Most are still thinking summer, planting seed corn in snowbanks, apparently thinking snow is just the new dirt. Up here in Maine, we know how to prep for winter - but prepping for the "big winter", since it's beyond living memory, takes some doing. The forest is not a big park, and the ocean is not a big lake. They are deeply different. And the hour is late.

In physical winter, food and heat, and light, matter, a lot. In civilizational winter, it's choice, and hope, and enduring meaning - among other things - that matter, a lot. So, collecting wisdom that we can hold on to in desperate times, that's what I was hoping to find a few folks for.

We're in the early weeks when we are letting our search algorithms keep us from troublesome truths. I imagine when civilizational winter really hits, people will get serious and start burning books, and perhaps, people. It's happened every century - with the last one being the worst yet. In the meantime, let's share them - both books, and people. What writers have you found that have kept you going, and you believe might help others?

The suggestion is appreciated - however, as you mentioned, I've title *is* what the post is about, although it does take a few short paragraphs to arrive. As for those who tire before reaching that point, this probably isn't their thread. Most roads take a bit to get where they are going.

One way of looking at the topic that may be more interesting to you is that the word "end" has multiple meanings, similar to the Greek word *telos*. The reason I am so consumed by the topic is that I have found the discussion of the end of the world is deeply bound to the discussion of the intent(s), purpose(s) and meaning(s) of the world (all connected t that term telos), which seems like it should concern everybody - or at least, most.

Can we at least agree the topics are related?

Hi Joshs,
I understand the sentiment, but this wasn't intended to be a thread convincing people it was the end of the world. People come to a fire because they want heat, light and company - not to be convinced that they are cold, in the dark and lonely.

A better approach might be - could you tell me in what way the world as you know it is ending, or already ended?

If you dispute the premise, I understand, but this probably isn't your thread.