For the purposes of this discussion, we're talking about classical physics before quantum mechanics and relativity. Before knowledge of an expanding universe. — Clarky

I just read this one. Ok, so my number 9 suggestion (which I think should have been 11, (I am at p3 in reading through the thread)) is moot. I am about 15 years out based on your 1905 in the OP. I made a ‘Hubble slip.’
I seem to be too impatient to not post a response until I had read all 5 pages of responses! :roll: :halo: Aw well, back to p3!

[2] There does not seem to be any other serious candidate for basic substance, — Janus

What about ‘spacial extent?’ Is space itself made of a substance? I have always envisaged the Big Bang singularity to be an ‘incredibly small concentration of energy,’ mass or matter came later.
@Clarky, @Wayfarer
So is the fundamental substance in the physicalist universe not ‘energy?’ And is there not also a ‘container?’ An extent, we call ‘space?.’

I am entering late as I wanted to read the philosophical heavyweight contributors first. Not read every post in this thread yet but I am enjoying the exchanges so far.
What about:
9. The universe is expanding in 3D but it is not expanding into anything.

Ok!

No. I make no apologies for taking joy in dead Nazis and don't need to tip toe around the point. — Streetlight

So you obfuscate rather than answer my questions directly. I did not ask you to repeat your opinion of dead nazis.
If you are just a ‘sledgehammer,’ then you are of limited use to those who are trying to make real change for the better of all, to happen asap.
I am sure you will be useful, anytime a blunt tool is required. I have found some of your posts insightful and accurate but you can employ very skewed logic as well.
I am sure your opinion of my posts are not exactly revelational either. It takes all kinds to make a world.
Very large variety in a vast number of combinations, makes anomalies common.

Then those people are part of the problem. — Streetlight

Always ‘those people’? Never you?

It depends how good you are at using ridicule.
If you use it like an uncontrolled sledgehammer instead of a precisely controlled scalpel then most people with categorise you as being part of the same problem as those you target.

I like when we murder Nazis — Streetlight

It’s interesting to me that you chose to use the term ‘murder’ nazis as opposed to kill or even ‘justly execute.’
We’re those who killed nazis, murderers?

What you're describing is epistemic egoism. It's the ideal of epistemic autonomy.
Given that we're not living in a vacuum, epistemic autonomy is not possible. — baker

Ego is an undeniable aspect of being human so it’s no surprise that it will influence personal beliefs.
If an individual is nefarious and they have power and influence then they can insist their personal beliefs are more important than the beliefs of some alternate mass or group of people with less power and influence. But, all tyrants are eventually overthrown, even those who seem to have total power. The combined belief of a large majority that they are not being treated in an acceptable way that makes their lives worth living is often the reason why those who think their beliefs/legacy will ‘stand for a thousand years,’ gets overthrown relatively quickly.

In this area there seems to be a moral imperative to ‘hold a conviction to be true’. — praxis

I agree, I see ‘hold a conviction to be true,’ and believing a proposal to be true to be almost synonymous.

If I did not find your original comment bad then I would not have posted my opinion against it, so obviously I considered it ambiguous at least if I already labelled it bad. My opinion has not changed and I think your attempts to explain have been poor and leave me with the opinion that you can be a mere ‘shit stirrer,’ at times just because being like that is a ‘buzz,’ for your, at times, skewed character.

Your streetlight can flicker at times. Flaw in your machine?

Was there a tech during WW2 I never knew about.
The bomb that only kills nazis?

Probably not. I'm not sure what it would mean to be a Nazi baby though. — Streetlight

Good, I am glad you struggle with the concept. It will help you understand that many good German people died in WW2 as well. All those killed by the actions of the allies were not guilty nazis. I hope for all our sakes that most were but perhaps you will see why your comment about bombing Germany was a bad one.

Fine. But I do not consider science to tell philosophy what is real. — Jackson

I rely on science more than philosophy to evidence what is real.

I think it does. Why do you think otherwise? — Jackson

Because I perceive the concept of ‘outside of spacetime,’ to be fallacious.

If we’re not sure about something why would we need to hold it to be true? — praxis

I am 99.9% sure gods don’t exist and I hold there nonexistence to be true but It would be highly unlikely that I would kill other humans over the issue.
It would depend on what the theists were threatening me with and those I consider innocents, with.
I would kill theists who threaten to kill others in the name of their theism.
I would also kill those who I believed were 99.9% fascist and were engaged in killing others as happened In WW2.
In general I would probably try to kill someone who was trying to kill me or those I care about.
But I would not have much belief in a concept such as ‘the only good German is a dead German,’ A little fact checking would soon provide strong evidence that there are many good Germans, even during WW2.
So we need to believe certain things are true if we are willing to kill based on it being true.

Would you include the German babies killed during the allied bombings of Germany under your;

Killing Nazis is a good. There is nothing controversial about this. — Streetlight

comment?

What is outside the universe? Nothing. I think that is a meaningful idea. — Jackson

I don’t think it is meaningful to try to objectify ‘outside’ of everything that exists.

Which is the problem. I think Hegel makes a good point, that the negation of being is nonbeing, but that is a fallacy. — Jackson

But that which exists can stop existing in its current form. A human can stop existing as a human by dying.
Mass can stop existing as mass by getting converted into energy but all existence cannot become nonexistent it can only return to its most fundamental form which seems to be energy or spatial extent/dimensionality.
Even the Penrose bounce does not suggest a previous Universe becomes nothing before a new ‘Big Bang.’

Bad comment :down:

I agree in general but I would refuse to use BS titles of nobility. No matter if it was based on the vile UK honours system or a family inheritance.
I would not bow to the queen or refer to a moron like Alan Sugar, as Lord Sugar. I would respect a title such as judge, professor, doctor etc but not ever king, queen, lord, pope etc or Sir something. I would use sir but not Sir Alan or such.

Isn’t fact checking or verification the alternative to belief? If you’re opposed to holding something to be true then, if it matters, you must be for verifying that it’s true. — praxis

I’m not against holding something to be true but I am advocating for some rigorous background checking to make sure YOUR conviction or belief it’s true is justified to YOU and you can cite your sources and also cite why your sources are reliable and rational. Fact checking is a way to support personal beliefs.

Hmm... not sure how did you come to such conclusion. — M777

Both rich and control massive powerful organisations.
Both influence the lives of millions.
Both have access to very powerful tech.
Both can influence global politics
Both are narcissistic b*******

Stalin/Chavez/PolPot/Mao/kimjonun, — M777

I personally would not have included Chavez in your group of villains but all the others are totalitarians and always were. They are NOT or EVER were socialist.
The Russian and Chinese revolutions did have socialist beginnings but there was no serious attempt in either example to set up a socialist system.
These are not ‘attempts at a socialist system,’ it’s just mostly western propaganda to suggest they were.
It’s a similar claim to the theistic claim that such systems are also ‘what happens when the atheists are in charge.’
Total BS.

Btw, nice papal garb in your icon!
Is that you favourite weekend costume? — universeness

SORRY! I clicked on your icon and saw it was a jesters garb! A good reminder for me to check carefully before commenting. I thought it was a cardinal sitting in a chair!
Made me assume you were a devoted theist.
Even if you are, I apologise anyway!
:blush:

Pretty much sums it up. Nobody likes oligarchs, bet replacing Soros with Stalin certainly won't be a step in the right direction. — M777

If you replace with an identical then you will get the same result. I see little difference between a western billionaire or an eastern one who also happens to be a Russian dictator. I am sure Putin and Elon Musk would find they had a lot in common if they chatted for long enough.

But as far as I can tell charity and helping isn’t common to the domain of socialism — NOS4A2

That’s not my experience. I find humanists and socialists share many goals.

Btw, nice papal garb in your icon!
Is that you favourite weekend costume?

Watched some of the link you offered. The narrator sounded Irish to me not Scottish and his rhetoric was a bit too evangelical, in style for me. How many times can one narrator say ‘soul,’ during a 35 min clip?

Many of us do not want your help. — NOS4A2

You will not be surprised to read that I tend to gravitate towards those who welcome help.
If it’s not wanted then I will withdraw it from such individuals. Perhaps they will be honourable enough to show gratitude if they benefit from the work that socialists do.

Not every understandable what you mean. — M777

What??

It has to do with culture and experience. So a 20 year old kid attending gender studies in UCLA has a slightly different experience from his Ukrainian counterpart, firing Javelins into Russian tanks. — M777

I am Scottish, we have a bloody history just like most nations. I would fight against any invader of my country just like the Ukrainians are doing.

:smile: Your streetlight offers illumination for all those walking around in the darkness of the night time streets.

From my point of view, you seem as a good person, who wants the best for people, unfortunately you are so blinded by this wish that you completely ignore any limitations imposed by reality. — M777

That is kind of you to say. I don’t think I am the naive neophyte you suggest. I have been politically active since my teenage years. I am also 58 and I consider learning about and contributing to, the struggle for a ‘better life,’ for all humans and improved stewardship of Earth, to be the most honourable goal there is. If I die or I am killed in pursuit of such then others will easily replace me.
Be part of the solutions not part of the problems.
Places like TPF at least allow us to debate about what the solutions are and I (and I hope you to) enjoy doing that.

For what it’s worth, I agree with many of the words you type and I understand why you use angry words at times but you don’t really need them as you often make very good points without the angry words.
I use angry words myself sometimes.

I think people in both Poland and Ukraine are very tough and self-reliant — M777

There are tough resilient humans everywhere, it’s got very little to do with nationality.

Interpreting anybody you don't like as Goebbels — M777

Really? That’s your projection of what I typed. Such projection borders on the irrational!

Ok, can you explain how you see it in practice? — M777

Yes I can but not on this thread. I would reserve that for a PM exchange between us if you wish.
Unless you want to start a new thread on the doctrine of true socialism. There is a political category on TPF but I think the idea is to discuss the philosophical aspects of politics. A PM exchange would probably be preferred by those here who prefer ‘philosophic discourse,’ to be the mainstay on TPF.

Have you listened to the Bezmenov interview? — M777

The opposition don’t intimidate me with such bleatings from their favourite sheep, financed for public consumption. They do infect and cow some but socialists can combat their propaganda very well.
Fringe right wing freaks have always been around.
Look what happened to the more extreme examples such as Lord Haw Haw or Joseph Gobbels.

Sounds nice in theory, but assuming it would work in practice, or at least not end in a disaster, is way too optimistic. — M777

You mean it’s too optimistic for YOU!

I think the west is pretty much doomed in the long run. A new civilization might come out of Poland/Ukraine. Of course it won't be socialist, yet very hard to imagine how exactly would it be formed. — M777

Is that because you live there or nearby?

Again, the problem is that when socialism is tried in real life, the 'good' socialists are used as pawns and than eliminated by very nasty people. So you believe that you will bring good to humanity, but in reality you just pave the way for the likes of Stalin, who will immediately kill you, once you have done your job. — M777

Socialists can learn and are born into each new generation. We will learn the lessons of history.
The methodologies employed by the nefarious are becoming more and more familiar over the era’s.
They can and will be stopped or be diluted towards mere itches.

I don't believe in unlimited/unrestricted individual freedom and expression, and I don't think many do. — Michael

I completely agree. You cannot have the freedom to incite violence nor can you have the freedom to compromise the freedom of others!
How can an individual have total individual freedom when they share space with others?

In not an all-powerful government, who will ensure the oligarchs don't get to power? I mean socialism without such government would fall apart in a month, with such government it would turn into a gulag. So, nice idea in theory, but won't work in real life. — M777

A rather misanthropic, defeatist viewpoint imo.
You can surrender to the dictates of the oligarchs if you want to. Meantime, we socialists will try to save you from your despondent hellish vision of ‘real life.’

Well, that's how attempts to install socialism always end up. — M777

It will succeed or the human race is doomed.
I think the human race is not doomed.
I think nefarious, narcissists are doomed.