Sorry, I wasn't trying to be comical or ridiculous. I was just saying that my experience doesn't have to reflect interaction with my environment. I have long had a recurring dream about a house that opens up into another house. Though I've experienced being in this weird house multiple times, it doesn't exist. My environment at the time was my bedroom. It appears that experience was generated by my brain.

The conclusion is just that interaction with the environment isn't necessary for experience. If it was, I wouldn't be able to have that dream. I wasn't trying to argue that a brain in a void can have experiences. There was a fair amount of what you said that I could have engaged, I just didn't want to do one of those posts where I'm responding to each sentence you wrote. That kind of discussion gets complex and off topic.

I guess it would help me to go back to what your point was. Were you saying that body and environment are logically necessary to experience? If by that you mean that a brain needs a power source in order to function, then that's fairly uncontroversial. If your point was that experience can't take place without bodily interaction with the environment, that doesn't appear to be true. It happens every time you dream, it's happening to people who have received chemical paralytic drugs, it's happening to people who are locked in. The burden would be on you to show that bodily interaction is necessary to consciousness.

I have yet to see a good argument why color is "mental precept" all the way down, but presumably shape and size are not. — Count Timothy von Icarus

It's got the weight of science behind it. The brain generates experience out of a flood of diverse data. Do you have an opposing version of that story?

The point was that you don't need a biological body. In the case of the supporting apparatus, it would be right to say it's necessary for the life of the brain. It's providing the brain's power source. It's not part of what the brain is doing, though. If you think it is, how? How is it part of consciousness?

In English it's pretty common to apparently directly equate them, as when we say the tea is cold. But in other languages, it would be that the tea has coldness, or that the coldness is upon the tea

I am not t sure how these are supposed to be counter examples. They still ascribe the property to the thing. Is there a language that does not ascribe color, heat, tone, or taste to things but only to subjects? I am not aware of one. — Count Timothy von Icarus

They describe a relationship between the property and the thing. That allows us talk about a property like redness as something separate from an object. When we notice that the red apple is black under a red light, we realize that this property belongs to the whole setting that includes the object. And it turns out that the story of redness also includes functions of consciousness and experience. I think you were touching on that with the Perl quote, that it appears that experience is a holistic symphony that we subsequently analyze, dissect, placing the pieces on a table like a dismantled clock.

The danger here is to take pieces of the dismantled clock and imagine that we're grasping a firm foundation from which to philosophize. As long as we remember that, we can divide the symphony up however we like. It's legit to concentrate on experience itself. That's what a large chunk of phenomenology is doing. Experience is what we know directly. All else is dubious. It's one way to approach the issue, right?

What experiences will someone on ketamine have if they are instantly teleported to the bottom of the sea, the void of space, or the surface of a star? Little to none, their body and brain will be destroyed virtually instantly in the first and last case. The environment always matters. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Right. If John is dead, John won't be experiencing anything. Does this mean we can't talk about the experiences John's brain creates while he's still with us?

Or suppose the building they are in collapses and a support beam runs through their chest but their brain is left pretty much unharmed? Same thing. Without the body and the enviornment the brain cannot produce experiences — Count Timothy von Icarus

We'll rush John to the hospital and put him on ECMO. He actually doesn't need a heart, lungs, or kidneys now. We'll provide a kind of IV feed so he doesn't need a digestive system. We'll just float his nervous system in a gel. We don't do this because it would just be a short term horror movie, but we could. And the brain would create experiences because that's just what it does. It doesn't need anything from the outside.

The brain doesn't produce experience "on its own," or "alone." Producing experience requires a constant flow of information, causation, matter, and energy across the boundaries of the brain and body. — Count Timothy von Icarus

That's not true. You don't need a body, as previously described.

No, I think I get it. You said that movies cannot be funny, the lemons are not sour, and that apples cannot be red. Presumably waterfalls cannot be sublime, sunsets beautiful, noises shrill, voices deep, etc. This is precisely what Lewis is talking about.

I just don't think this separation makes any sense. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Sorry to butt in, but I think if you're approaching this from ordinary language, you should keep in mind that languages vary in how they express the relationship between objects and their properties. In English it's pretty common to apparently directly equate them, as when we say the tea is cold. But in other languages, it would be that the tea has coldness, or that the coldness is upon the tea. It's native to English to treat properties as transient and objects as permanent, but that just doesn't show up as overtly as, say, in Spanish.

Experience only emerges from brains in properly functioning bodies in a narrow range of environments and abstracting the environment away so as to locate these physical processes solely "in" brains or "brain states," is simply bad reasoning. — Count Timothy von Icarus

What about the experiences of people on say, ketamine? Their experiences are in some way "in the language" of earthly life, but they're definitely not reflecting anything in the person's environment. Those experiences appear to be created by the brain alone.

They were. four shootings and several alleged sexual assaults in the span of weeks. — NOS4A2

Plus they looted several Walmarts, sneaking away with large amounts of baby diapers.

Trump killed 14 people in South Dakota.

Their constituents took over entire cities, and burned many to the ground, including laying siege to the whitehouse — NOS4A2

That's because Democrats are always heavily armed.

Bad faith can only get you so far. — NOS4A2

Ain't that the truth?

The Trumpsters are pretending that it is a matter of fairness — Fooloso4

Maybe. NOS is really good at evasion. I'm trying to learn how he does it so I can do it. The first step is to reject something obvious, like the meaning of "rigging.". Then when your opponent hands you a definition of the word, you pick up something extraneous in the definition. The goal is to drag the victim into the weeds, puzzling over stuff that has nothing to do with the original issue. Then you ask them a question about what they think. "Do you think it's fair that cats are so dependent on humans? I mean, do you?"

Cool stuff.

I already stated why so think it was unfair. — NOS4A2

Ok, I missed it. Tell me again why you think there was cheating.

That’s wrong. The question at the end of the sentance indicates I was asking you a question. — NOS4A2

So you have no evidence of unfair practices, rigging, or cheating. Why did you assert it? Did you dream that there was some cheating?

Who lied, and about what? Give us facts we can check.

He probably was sharp when Schumer said that. 80 y.o. dudes don't go into dementia like falling off a cliff. Even those closest to him might just suspect at first.

Do you think it’s fair to the millions who voted for Biden in the primaries? — NOS4A2

So let me get this straight. The primary voters chose Biden, then Biden said he wasn't going to run. Now you're verklempt over the disappointment the voters must feel about that. Is that correct?

Do you think it’s fair to lie about Biden’s abilities up until the moment they couldn’t lie about it any more? — NOS4A2

Who lied, and about what? Give us facts we can check.

It’s unfair to replace a candidate from a race because you’re losing, especially against the will of the voters, and it’s dishonest and fraudulent to say you’ve done so for any other reason as Joe Biden and his surrogates did. — NOS4A2

It would be unfair if the Republican party wasn't capable of doing exactly the same thing if they so chose. Since the parties are following the same rules, it's fair.

Those words do not imply rules have been broken. You’re starting to spread disinfo now. — NOS4A2

To rig:
"Manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person."

To cheat:
"act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage"

So we need some fraud, some dishonesty, or unfair dealings. It appears none of that exists.

Where is the rigging and cheating? Those words imply rules that have been broken. There's no cheating.

Not purposefully. Can you give me an example? — NOS4A2

Well, you said this:

I know they’re going to win the election. The rigging and cheating has already begun. Not a single person has voted for Harris and she’s already the nominee. — NOS4A2

What rigging and cheating?

Like what, for example? — NOS4A2

So you're saying you never intentionally post stuff that's wrong? You'd have to be delusional if that's true. C'mon.

What have I posted that is wrong? — NOS4A2

You do it all the time. I thought you were doing it on purpose. No?

The judge’s daughter owns a company that helps Joe Biden and Kamala Harris win elections. The judge donated to democrats against ethics code. The DA ran on prosecuting Trump. The prosecutor was Biden’s top 3rd man in the Department of Justice. Are you just ignorant of all these things? — NOS4A2

This is the effect of misinformation: you post so much stuff that's obviously wrong that I don't make any assessment of your posts. Does freedom of speech require this sacrifice? That your communication approaches meaninglessness because its truth is dubious? I'm just asking.

His campaign specifically wanted to increase his support among blacks from 12% to 20%. I don't think he accomplished that.

At a certain point on the spectrum, red starts to become orange looking. It becomes more and more orange, eventually becoming a shade of “orange” rather than a shade of “red.” What draws that line? — Mp202020

We do, don't we? I agree with you that it's ok that "red" refers to a range of frequencies (that might vary per setting.). But when it starts changing to reddish orange, or purple (bluish red) or burnt sienna (reddish brown), these terms come from shared human experience, right?

More great news for the climate:

New 4th generation nuclear power plant goes into construction in Tennessee

You're right on both counts. It highlights the way Harris is normal compared to Trump and Vance. And it's catchy. Trump is probably secretly applauding it. It's something he'd be proud of.

went with calling their opponents “weird” — NOS4A2

I think that one works. It doesn't come off as bullying because Trump is such a bully himself. Plus it's true, Trump and JD are weird.

Did you know the eye has evolved independently about 50 times on earth? Crazy.

Another example of how colours are social conventions. — javi2541997

I mean, the name is a social convention and being able to pick it out might be a matter of cultural norms, but the color itself probably has to do with our biology, right?

It is probably the other way around. The main threat to good healthcare is the lack of religion. If you are not motivated, if you are depressed, if you are in fact in your own mind already a lost case, the best healthcare in the world won't make a difference. The doctor will simply say, "The patient is not fighting. He has given up already." You need motivation to succeed. You need it even when trying to get better. Good healthcare is simply wasted on people who actually don't want to live. — Tarskian

Some religions foster resignation and acceptance, though.

Nothingness was abhorrent — jgill

Yea.

That’s a good take, thanks. — NOS4A2

Could you explain how misinformation works? Is it supposed to be picked up by bots? Is it supposed to become part of a cloud of misinformation so that people don't trust anything anymore?

:grin: Do you know why the ancient Greeks never developed the idea of zero? (Without asking an AI) :lol:

I’m just kidding, frank. What do you think about Biden’s proposal? — NOS4A2

Well, having no term limits on the SCOTUS means that it reflects the way Americans have been voting over the span of a generation or so. That's the reason the Court is now so conservative, because Americans have leaned conservative for several decades. Historically, it works for us to have that temporal anchor. Democracy can be flighty, so it's nice to have built-in drags on the mob.

I wouldn't change it just because we're irritated by where we landed with the court. For democracy to work, you need to have a little faith in it.

That's also true with trading. Once you settle on a strategy, you need to have the discipline to let your strategy work. Sometimes you lose, even with a good strategy. You have to accept that and think about the long term

t means you’re approaching stalker territory. — NOS4A2

Sorry. I was just bored.

I have no idea what that means

Cat lady.

Still, just because one field of study uses another field of study doesn't mean the first field always "describes" the second field, does it? — flannel jesus

I guess not. But if a field is bound to logic, it will be a demonstration of logic, won't it? Couldn't describing and demonstrating both be kinds of showing?

I was not expecting this reply. I thank you for humbling me. — flannel jesus

Didn't mean to!

This sounds like something a cat lady would say. Do you have a cat?

But why would that justify thinking physics should "describe logic"? — flannel jesus

Yea, I guess I'm using to describe and to express to mean the same thing. Maybe it's more that if you've seen the expression, the description has been conveyed to you? Like if you see a model of the earth's electromagnetic dynamo, you're seeing the principles involved in making the model expressed, so you're also receiving a description of those principles. Or you could pull a description out of the expression. Is that not true?

Accounting uses math, does the study of accountancy "describe math"? — flannel jesus

Math originally came from accounting, believe it or not. The number zero came from a Babylonian device that was kind of like an abacus. Writing down the configuration on the abacus is where a symbol for zero came from. Zero's place in the human mind was cemented by practical issues surrounding trade. Math as an abstract domain comes from the invention of non-commodity money. Wherever the use of money spread, a tendency to think in mathematical abstraction followed.

Sorry, favorite topic. :grimace:

One of those possibly pseudo-questions which may be sophistry; but, in your opinion do you think physics describes logic? — Shawn

Yes. Since physicists insist on using logic, the whole of physics is an expression of logic.

but our personal experience of the color red may very well differ from the actual experience of the same light wavelength another may have, which we’ve all agreed to call “red.” I am speaking solely on the subjective experience of “redness.” — Mp202020

This is interesting because this issue generalizes. It may be that there is no such thing as agreement in anything. Yes, we assume that there is, but what if we're wrong? What if the thing we're calling agreement is really just a matter of behavior and speech?

On the one hand, this lays the whole issue of abstract objects to rest, because that idea emerges from a foundation of supposed agreement between thinkers. We're thinking of the same number, or the same proposition. That's where the idea of abstract objects comes from. But what if there's nothing but utterances programmed by biology? Like birds in a yard, if you hear a certain tonal sequence, you respond with another to address the problem, whatever that may be.

At first glance, it looks like the intellect itself becomes an odd sort of... illusion. You can't even agree with yourself from one moment to the next. There's no continuity that would allow for concepts or universals. Food for pondering would be: is that even possible?