I knew a man who was mechanical and took a class in physics and failed, yet he could resolve a mechanical/physics problem that no one else in the class could figure out. I would say that is an example of tacit knowledge. It is not understanding theory which is a verbal explanation of how something works. Verbal knowledge is something the man has trouble learning but he has knowledge that is not verbal. — Athena

I would say that is an example of what tacit knowledge is all about. It means that the ability to verbalize one's reasoning is distinct from the ability to reason - the two are not the same process. Which does not mean that the ability to verbalize one's reasons does not enable more complex thinking.

My favourite example of tacit knowledge is Socrates/Plato's insistence that if one cannot define, e.g., courage, piety in words, one does not know what courage/piety may be. But it is clear that that is not the case. In fact, when we speak, we are following a set of complex set of rules that we cannot verbalize. This is a dramatic illustration of how important tacit knowledge can be.

BTW If you post image-thinking as an alternative, that is fair enough. But there is not reason to suppose that it explains tacit knowledge, because if one can sensible manipulate the images such that the product is what you imagined, then you are following rules that you cannot articulate. Image-thinking is an alternative (better, in some circumstances) to verbal thinking.

Animals in general do amazing thing without words and could label all this tacit knowledge? — Athena

Yes, I think so.

I'm glad following up tacit thinking was so productive for you. I think it is an important phenomenon. It is a shame that philosophers have seen fit to ignore it.

All notions of ‘rational’ at work here, including those that contradict each other, do rest on the same ground, which is human intelligence. The concept “rationality” is itself a human construct predicated on its intellectual capacities, from which follows any instance of it relates to no other intelligence than the one that conceived it as such. — Mww

"All notions of ‘physical’ at work here, including those that contradict each other, do rest on the same ground, which is human intelligence. The concept “physical” is itself a human construct predicated on its intellectual capacities, from which follows any instance of it relates to no other intelligence than the one that conceived it as such."
The notions we apply to the world are like a lens, through which we understand the world. There may be distortions due to our particular perspective. But that does not mean that everything we understand is false. After all, we cannot change our perspective, so we might as well make the most of what we've got.

Which gets us to coherency, insofar as given that rationality is apprehended in humans by humans regardless of behavior, — Mww

What do you mean? We can call out irrational behaviour as such. We do it all the time.

thought/belief being an entirely internal cognitive machination by definition, precludes any external access to it, which is sufficient to refuse its affirmation by an external arbiter. — Mww

That applies to both humans and animals and means that no judgement, positive or negative, is justified. But it is clear that we do make such assessments, from which it follows that thought/belief is not an entirely internal cognitive machination.

Even granting human language-less thought/belief, is not sufficient reason to grant lesser animals thought/belief because they happen to be language-less in lacking all forms of serial vocalizations. — Mww

Granting human language-less thought/belief is sufficient reason to grant animals thought/belief unless a sufficient reason for withholding language-less thought/belief from them is provided.

Which leaves us with those lesser animals considered as possessing a rudimentary form of language, judged by human standards, as to whether that form of language is a development of a commensurate form of rational thought/belief. — Mww

That would be one possibility, but it is not the argument that I would put.

Nature is, of course, rife with occasions which instill in us the notion those occasions are exemplifications of rational thought by those intelligences the internal cognitive machinations of which are inaccessible to us. — Mww

Two conclusions follow. First that animals are capable of rational action. Second, the internal cognitive machinations are accessible to us, so they are not purely internal.

It's very common for religious aplologists to engage in such propagandizing, and I'm done with biting my tongue when Wayfarer is doing it. — wonderer1

Thank you for telling me. But I think I'll make up my own mind, if you don't mind.

Is there any chance Nagel's perspective is as scientifically well informed as that of anyone here? — Patterner

If Nagel is not scientifically well informed, he is as well informed as me. In other respects also, I would very much like to be able to adopt Nagel's perspective. He's a much better philosopher than me. Yet I still disagree with many of his opinions, especially with regard to bats.

As noted, I think this distinction is resisted in contemporary culture because it's politically incorrect. There's an aversion to the Christian doctrine of mankind's sovereignty over nature as it is associated with religion and old-fashioned cultural attitudes. It's today's 'popular wisdom'.
— Wayfarer
There's also the sense that we believe Darwinism has shown that we're on a continuum with other species, and this provides the satisfaction of us being part of nature, which is consistent with philosophical naturalism.
— Wayfarer — Ludwig V

I'm never sure how much weight to put on explanations at this level. Bu there is another issue, not yet mentioned, playing in to this. I think it may be hard for philosophers in the traditions of english-speaking philosophy to accept as philosophical at all - but then, neither Christianity nor Darwin is a philosophical theory. This has its roots in European philosophy and is often deployed in sociology. My suggestion is that there is a tendency to see animals as inherently other than us, human beings, mainly on the ground that they are in what one might call the state of nature, before humans came and developed societies. It's a way of thinking that was prominent in 18th century philosophy, but the roots of it in our way of life are deeper than that. The difference is that they are now openly contested.

Why do I say that the roots are in our way of life? Because so much of our effort over generations to make ourselves more secure, better fed, better sheltered, more prosperous, we have mostly been centred on distinguishing ourselves from animals.

Because they are natural, they are a puzzle and a threat. They live in what, for a human, would be a state of abject poverty and show no evidence of trying to escape from it. These we can exploit for food and labour ("living tools"). Others show a marked inclination to destroy ourselves and all that we have struggled to build up. Of course "we" are different from "them". However, we need to change that attitude and develop a better sense of the ecosystem that we live in, not because it is moral or right, but because we are just as dependent on it as they are. Even if some of us escape to other planets, we cannot all ship out elsewhere - the first time in history that has been true.

Nagel is not pushing a religious barrow, he's an avowed atheist but one with the chutzpah to call scientific materialism into question. — Wayfarer

Thanks for the information and the link. I've secured everything but will need some time to read and think about it.
I'm not particularly offended by calling scientific materialism into question. That has been done ever since science began 1,500 years ago. Mostly, I admit, in the name of religious ideas.

As for chutzpah, don't you think your photograph is a splendid example?

Thomas Nagel is a scientific ignoramus, and doesn't have a perspective based on having a scientifically well informed perspective. Your attempts to smear scientifically informed people with Nagel's emotional issues amount to pushing propaganda on your part. — wonderer1

I don't know how much science Nagel knows, but do you really mean to say that any perspective is not scientifically well-informed is not worth having? That's a very big assumption.
There are people, you know, who find some pronouncements from people who have nothing but a scientifically well-informed perspective extremely ill-informed and annoying.
If you think that Nagel's questioning of scientific materialism is just an emotional issue, perhaps one might look for some actual arguments on the point? (But probably not right now, since they are not really relevant.)
Incidentally, I also find at least some of his arguments extremely annoying as well, but not on those grounds.

But, to be honest, I get bored in repeatedly presenting the same facts regarding lesser animal's observed behaviors -- to only find these same factual presentations repeatedly overlooked for the sake of the given counter argument. — javra

Yes. It's not restricted to this issue. People (including me, sometimes) get over-focused and can't see what they don't want to see.

It's very tempting to think that engagement with specific cases is crucial to making this argument and it's not wrong. But perhaps even more important is engagement with animals. But it's not so simple as that. What is needed is engagement of a particular kind, so that one can grasp that animals in many ways will engage with us in many (but not all) of the same ways that we engage with other people.

It's not the same as the engagement of a farmer with his stock, which is transactional and does not require the kind of empathy that is needed to understand them. (Not that farmers are necessarily incapable of empathetic engagement alongside the transactional aspects of their business.) Short story - living with animals as companions or colleagues makes a huge difference. (Aristotle makes a huge mistake when he describes animals (and slaves) as "living tools".

That's very vague, but I'm trying to gesture at the idea that this is not just a matter for abstract reason. It's about how to live with beings recognizably like us. After all, that's how we come to treat people as people and not "just" animals".

Yes, animals can act intelligently, especially higher animals like cetaceans, primates, birds, canines, etc. But they lack reason in the human sense (which, as you say above that you're 'a pedant' might be, I would have thought, a distinction a pedant would recognise ;-) ) — Wayfarer

Very neat. But I would have thought that a pedant might refuse to recognize a distinction on pedantic grounds? In any case, I'm only a pedant when I want to be - I don't claim to be any different from other pedants in that respect.

But since you grant intelligence to "higher" animals, I take you to be granting rationality in some sense to them, but then maintaining there is a different sense that is available to human beings. I don't have a clear grasp of these two different senses, much less of why the difference is important. It may be merely pedantic.

As noted, I think this distinction is resisted in contemporary culture because it's politically incorrect. There's an aversion to the Christian doctrine of mankind's sovereignty over nature as it is associated with religion and old-fashioned cultural attitudes. It's today's 'popular wisdom'. — Wayfarer

Yes, and like all popular wisdom, tends to be a bit broad-brush.

The Christian doctrine has been interpreted in certain ways that are objectionable, as justifying tyranny and cruelty. But there's another interpretation that interprets sovereignty as requiring stewardship and care (recognizing, for example, that animals are also God's creation and deserve respect for that reason, if no other). This still may (or may not) be patronizing and demeaning. Even if it is, it is better than the alternative. If it is not, then I don't see how the Christian doctrine would necessarily be objectionable.

"Politically incorrect" seems to me to mean "at variance with the consensus view". But a view is not necessarily incorrect (or correct) just because it is a consensus view. So there's something missing here.

There's also the sense that we believe Darwinism has shown that we're on a continuum with other species, and this provides the satisfaction of us being part of nature, which is consistent with philosophical naturalism. — Wayfarer

Yes. I sense a criticism there, but I don't quite see what it is. There is a further difficulty that I'm not clear just what philosophical naturalism is.

The idea that we are "just monkeys" was a major issue at the time. But I gather than many Christians are now at peace with evolution, so they must have found some resolution of the issue. For myself, I notice that we did still carry many of the basic animal behaviour patterns and that we find predecessor or proto- versions of many of our patterns of behaviour in animals (and even insects). So the idea of a radical discontinuity seems a bit implausible.

This is where I think a philosophical critique of naturalism fits in, but I won't advance it again, as it's clearly not registering. — Wayfarer

Well, if you could favour me with a link to where you have advanced your critique, I could look at it more carefully.

Anthropomorphism looms large. — creativesoul

On the one hand, anthropomorphism, on the other mechanism. No escape. Steer a careful course between the two, and be prepared to change direction as necessary.

I disagree that there is no truth to the matter of interpretation. Interpretation presupposes meaning. ... On my view, puzzle pictures are meaningless in and of themselves. — creativesoul

Yes, it is more nuanced a matter than I allowed. Interpretation is not a free for all. It has limits.
There are many examples of ambiguity in pictures and that shows that what a picture shows is not straightforwardly given. But not every picture is ambiguous and not any "interpretation" is possible for a given picture. The puzzle picture is a picture of a duck and a picture of a rabbit. This is confusing just because most pictures aren't ambiguous. It wouldn't be difficult to provide a bit of additional context that would disambiguate the picture as presented. It is certainly not a picture of a horse or a frog. If someone tried to suggest that interpretation, we would correct them.
But it is wrong to say that the picture has no meaning. It is not just a meaningless scribble. The supposedly neutral description in terms of lines on paper suggests a misleading comparison. The only truth is that the picture can be described in all three interpretations. It has multiple meanings, not none. And additional context, in a particular case, can disambiguate the picture.

In one way, actions can be interpreted in a rational or in a mechanistic framework. We are used to using language to disambiguate, but sometimes this fails us. Nevertheless, there is a question of context which often allows us to juggle the two.

But, I emphasize, the description of an action provided by the agent in language may be an important criterion for us, but it is not decisive in all circumstances. The agent may be lying or misrepresenting the action for various purposes. Or the agent may not be recognizing how we might see it - what is just banter to the agent, may be a serious slur to us. It is even possible that the agent may be wrong - deceiving themselves.

It doesn't reflect the human's accurately, either, but that doesn't matter, because a common language gives us a thumbnail picture of what is in the other's mind. We don't need every detail to understand the gist of their meaning. — Vera Mont

That's true. What I'm after is that truth is not the only criterion in play. There's also the desire to understand and to be understood. That may require slightly different ways of putting things to cater for differences in perspective. We only need enough accuracy for our actual purposes. Accurate for all purposes is not available. We can always refine things if and when the occasion arises. Philosophers are trained to ignore all that, and trip themselves up quite often.

Of course not. The feral children - and there have not been many - cannot communicate how they think, because they're inept in our language, even if they can learn it, and we have no access to theirs. — Vera Mont

Yes. I did wonder how it was possible, and lived in a wild hope.

That’s what I thought you would say, although I still say there’s a fundamental distinction you’re not recognising. — Wayfarer

Well, either I'm not recognizing the distinction, or I'm not recognizing how fundamental it is. Perhaps if you were specific, it would be possible to discern which.

Because some language less animals form, have, and/or hold rational thought, as learning how to open doors, gates, and tool invention/use clearly proves, if we accept/acknowledge and include evolutionary progression, it only follows that some rational thought existed in its entirety prior to our naming and descriptive practices. Whatever language less rational thought consists of, it is most certainly content/elements/something that is amenable to brute evolutionary progression such that it is capable of resulting in our own very complex thought and belief.

In my book, as you know, it's correlations.

Hence, the a priori bottom up approach seems to be irrevocable to this subject matter. — creativesoul

I think I mostly agree with you.

Why would they need to think exactly the same way we do in order to be considered rational? — Vera Mont

As our discussion of week-ends below shows, they don't.

And only to communicate with other people. — Vera Mont

That's true. But one feels that the version for other people is not the truth, because it doesn't represent the dog's point of view accurately. The difference may never make any difference. But it might possible, so pedants like me like to have both versions at hand to use as and when appropriate.

And they've developed a non-verbal set of symbols and patterns that work for them. — Vera Mont

I had heard of the language problem. Do you have a reference that would tell me more about the symbols and patterns that they use?

Perhaps "rational" is being equated with "the way I think"? (If only subconsciously.) — wonderer1

If you check out my comments to Vera Mont, you'll see that if you want to communicate what the dog is doing to other humans, you may have to distort how the dog is actually thinking. It's an obscure feature of the intentionality of concepts of believe and know which most people miss because they don't think things through from the point of view of speaker and audience.

Perhaps another issue worth considering in this thread is, do animals think critically? Do humans think critically? What percent of humans? — wonderer1

Those question need a good deal of teasing out with specific cases before I would venture on anwers. But they are quite capable of mistrusting people.

Is rationality the result of having culturally acquired skills that improve the reliability of one's thinking? — wonderer1

There are some skills one can acquire from the culture. But real life experience is also a great teacher. Either way, I'm sure it is learned. Though children learn to pretend and even to deceive quite early.

To think critically one first has to have abstract reasoning skills, which I don’t believe is possessed by animals, for the reasons stated. — Wayfarer

Yes. It depends whether by "critical thinking" you mean the skills in informal logic sometimes taught in schools. Many people never acquire those skills , but they're still capable of detecting falsehoods and deceptions.

If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, why would we assume it's something - anything! anything! - other than a duck? — Vera Mont

Perhaps so. But it depend whether the dog is going to generalize in the same way that we do. Most of the time, they get it right, because they understand context. But that's not a given. Actually, your next comment illustrates the point perfectly.

Not because it's the weekend; he can't think in the same terms as working and school-attending humans; he doesn't have that experience.* What he's anticipating are the events that take place at five-day intervals: family all present and relaxed, more playtime, activity, maybe the excitement of visitors or outings something of interest going on. — Vera Mont

It's not whether it is Saturday, it's whether it's been five days since the last time. Perfect. But we are not wrong to explain to our in-laws that the dog is excited because it's the week-end.

We choose our words to balance the understanding of the dog and the understanding of the people that we are speaking to. Your in-laws would likely be a bit puzzled if you told them that the dog is excited because it's been five days since the last time everyone was at home, don't you think? I realize that's not very philosophically correct, but it's a tough world if one can't be a bit incorrect occasionally.

Hum, this is the definition that Wikipedia gives-
Being a Athenian means a little more than just living in the city. — Athena

Thanks for this - and for the oath, which I have not seen before. Aristotle puts a huge emphasis on "public affairs" (which I think is closer to what he intends) as part of the good life, and says it is one of the higher good things that constitute the good life, along with friends.

You/Wikipedia are quite right. I don't necessarily trust my memory of these things, so I have double-checked. "politikos" does include what we call politics, but has a wider range and includes "public" or "municipal" and "community". The standard translation of the relevant sentence in Aristotle is "Man lives in a community".

[Oops!. I can't let this mistake go, so I'm adding an edit. That sentence should have read "Man is an animal that lives in a community/city.]

That surely involves a degree of thinking. But what is thinking without words? — Athena

Some people say they think in images. (Planning how to pack a suitcase, for example). I don't, but how could I contradict them?
Sometimes, when we are improvising, we are thinking by doing.
Then there's all the thinking that goes on that we are not aware of. This is more controversial, philosophically speaking. My favourite example is our echo-location. Phenomenologically, we just know where a sound is. But the scientists tell us that we work out where sounds are by the difference in the sound between one ear and the other - it arrives later on the side furthest from the source.
This is sometimes called "tacit knowledge". There's a lot of it about, but philosophy regards it as secondary to conscious thinking. Short story. It's a bit of a mystery.
And @Vera Mont is quite right to cite feral human children. When found, they are often completely without language, yet can clearly respond appropriately to what's going on. (They also, I understand, find it very difficult to learn language at all.) But that only demonstrates that it is possible to think unconsciously and without language. So it is important for this thread.

So, your argument is that all species are unique - after all, uniqueness is what makes them identifiable as separate species. The ability to speak, think rationally, plan, create science and technology, and so on, is unique to humans. But as uniqueness is a characteristic of every species, then our uniqueness is not unique, and so we're really no different to to other species.
Do I have that right? — Wayfarer

Sort of. To save a lot of words that may or may not be unnecessary, here's my edited version, and then you can ask about any changes that you like.

My argument is that 1) all species are unique - after all, uniqueness is what makes them identifiable as separate species and that 2) all species are similar - after all, they are all living beings. The ability to create science and technology, art and social institutions and so on, is unique to humans. But as uniqueness is a characteristic of every species, then our uniqueness is not unique, and so being unique is not unique to any species.

The unstated but critical question is whether the things that human are unique for are developments of abilities that other species have or are a radical break from all other species. My answer is the former alternative. I do not deny that radical breaks have occurred during evolution but I do not see anything that makes me think that we are such a break. (Radical breaks - eukaryotid cells, multicellular organisms, fish, plants, reptiles, mammals - off the top of my head. There could be others.)

Perhaps the point is that uniqueness is not a particularly good basis for jumping to anaturalistic conclusions? — wonderer1

I've been trying to re-direct people from what I think is a pretty fruitless debate to the question, why does it matter? It's not the distinction, it's why it matters.

I'm not sure what anaturalistic conclusions are. But there is an interesting point here. In our discussion, I think we would happily say that everything that we do is natural to us. Yet, we spend much of our time "artificially" separating ourselves from nature. That distinction - between the natural and the artificial - was popular in 18th century philosophy, and served to draw a line. But that wouldn't hold water for us now, would it?

I intended to post this after I had made some comments. So now I am adding them.

I thinking pulling oneself from flames is not rational or deliberated or reasoned or thought about at all. It's just done. — creativesoul

That doesn't mean it is not a rational response, does it? But one could argue that although it is rational qua response, it is not the animal's response and so not an action in the sense that we are talking about. (Think about that first gasp for air when you have been underwater for too long.) That is a possible view.

Believing that touching the fire caused pain is. Applied, that belief becomes operative in the sense that it stops one from doing it again. — creativesoul

That is the animal's response - something that it does. Since it is rational and something the animal does and there for an example of animal rationality.

What he's actually looking forward to is the particular event that usually takes place. Do we also know that no other animal can guage the interval at which a routine pleasant event usually occurs? To a small child, one would say: two more sleeps until Grandpa comes to dinner. For a dog who never gets to ride in the car when his human is going to work, and doesn't even ask, looks forward to weekends. — Vera Mont

There's a complication here, that how the animal thinks about it may not be how we think about it. But, if we are to understand the animal, it needs to be expressed in terms that we can understand. To a small child, one would say "Two more sleeps...", but we would report to Grandpa that the child is really looking forward to him coming for dinner on Thursday.

In the case of the dog, we would have trouble saying to anyone on Wednesday that they are looking forward to the week-end. (How would that manifest itself? I'm not saying that there couldn't be any signs, only that I can't think of any). We might say they are looking forward to the week-end by extrapolation from the enthusiasm that we see on Saturday, but that would be risky in a philosophical context.
Still, when the signs appear, there is no doubt and we well might say the dog is excited because it's the week-end, while acknowledging that that does not reflect how the dog thinks about it. It could be "the day breakfast is late" - but even then, we don't suppose that's what the dog is saying to itself. Perhaps it is more like the response to the fire. I don't think there is a clear answer to this.

Here, you've veered into what we are doing with the word "rational". I'm more inclined to critically examining whether or not any single notion of "rational" is capable of admitting that language less animals are capable of learning how to open gates, open doors, make and use tools for specific purposes, etc. — creativesoul

From another perspective, the question is what notion of "rational" enables us to explain the fact that some animals are capable of learning how to open gates, etc. I mean that the starting-point is that they can, and that stands in need of explanation.
Here's how I look at it - for what it's worth.
We know how to explain how humans learn to do these things. But humans are our paradigm (reference point) of what a rational being is. So that's what we turn to. It involves a complex conceptual structure (think of it as a game - a rule-governed activity). The obvious recourse, then, is our existing practice in explaining how people do these things. We apply those concepts to the animals that learn to do these things. Our difficulty is that animals are in many ways different from human beings, most relevantly in the respect that many of the things that human beings can routinely do, they (apparently) cannot. So some modification of our paradigm is necessary.

That's not a desperately difficult problem, but it is where the disagreements arise, though in the nature of the case, determinate answers will not be easy to arrive at. But we are already familiar with such situations, where we apply the concept of interpretation. The readiest way of explaining this is by reference to puzzle pictures, which can be seen (interpreted) in more than one way. There is no truth of the matter, just different ways of looking at the facts. So, competing (non-rational) interpretations cannot be conclusively ruled out. However, in this case, the same interpretations can be applied to human beings as well. They are found lacking because they do not recognize the kinds of relationship that we have with each other. The same lack is found with, for example, the application of mechanical (reductionist) accounts of animals.

It has nothing to do with our word use. Language less animals have none. — creativesoul

Well, it has and it hasn't. It hasn't because we are considering actions without language. But we are used to applying our concepts of action without language, since we happily explain what human beings to even when we do not have access to anything that they might say. (Foreign languages, for example) Indeed, sometimes we reject what the agent says about their own action in favour of the explanation we formulate for it. That is, agents can be deceptive or mistaken about their own actions.

The catch is that we have no recourse but to explain their actions in our language. But this is not a special difficulty. It applies whenever we explain someone else's action.

you have been participating on a philosophy forum to the tune of 1.5K posts. Surely, you've been in one or two discussions where you did not expect the other person to change their mind. — Patterner

I never expect to change anyone's mind - except possibly at the margins. Major changes of mind take a lot of time.

But I don't know why subjective judgement puts something beyond discussion. Opinions change. Tastes change. Someone can present an opposing opinion in just the right way to sway the other person. — Patterner

Oh, I was working to the usual idea that a subjective judgement is not open to objective argument. That may have been a bit of a cop-out. But I couldn't make enough sense of what your judgement was to be able to work out how to reply to it.

A concept is the meaning of a word. The meaning of a word is its use in propositions.
— Mww

I can't make sense of this.
— Ludwig V

That part attributed to me, isn’t mine. Or isn’t mine in conjunction with what came before it. I’d like to deny I ever said it, but….crap, I forget stuff so easy these days. If you would be so kind, refresh me? Or, retract the attribution? — Mww

Yes, you are right. I screwed up the formatting. I apologize. I think your original comment was this.

Expression is objectified representation of conceptions, but not necessarily of rational thought, which is a certain form of representation of its own, re: propositional. — Mww

I intended to add my comment, which was "A concept is the meaning of a word. The meaning of a word is its use in propositions." I will only add that I don't see how a word can be a representation of a concept. They exist in different categories. There can be no structural similarity between them that would justify calling the relationship a representation.

I like that the Greeks thought we are political creatures and it is fitting for this thread to question if any other life form is political. — Athena

That is a very popular quote - I'm fond of it myself. But Aristotle didn't mean by "political" what we mean by it; we took the Greek word and distorted its meaning. He meant that human beings live in cities - that's all. It's still a surprising thought for its time.

Also, I don't think we all have an agreement about what language is. I think we have agreement that animals are capable of communication but does that equal language? Even if it did equal language is that language limited to a few words and what concepts does that serve? — Athena

No, we don't. It makes this discussion much more difficult than it need be.

They'll be weighing the leap up before acting. But I don't see any justification to say that this implies they're thinking.
— Wayfarer
Then what, precisely, are they doing? If a human stood on that same bank, assessing the distance and scanning the far shore for safe landing spots, would you doubt that he's thinking?
ETA Moreover, exactly like the man, if the leap is deemed not worth risking, a cat will walk some way up and down along the bank, looking for a place where the water narrows or there is a stepping-stone. — Vera Mont

I agree with you and Wayfarer that they are weighing up the leap before acting. I agree with you that weighing up before acting is thinking - and thinking rationally to boot.

Still, I make that judgement. It's entirely subjective, after all. I think our intelligence and consciousness (I believe the two are very tightly intertwined) is the most extraordinary thing we are aware of, and capable of more wonders than we can imagine. — Patterner

Yes. I was a bit flummoxed when I wrote it - that last sentence is a mess. My problem is that you announce that your judgement is entirely subjective, which puts it beyond discussion and at the same appear to expect me to discuss it with you. I don't think that judgement is a simply objective one, but I don't think it is wholly subjective either.

Of course; not one of my contentions. Expression is objectified representation of conceptions, but not necessarily of rational thought, which is a certain form of representation of its own, re: propositional.
A concept is the meaning of a word. The meaning of a word is its use in propositions. — Mww

All that says nothing about the origin of our conceptions, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the expression of them, but is always presupposed by it, and thereby legitimizes the death of the “meaning is use” nonsense, — Mww

I can't make sense of this.

insofar as it is quite obviously the case we all, at one time or another and I wager more often than not, conceptualize….think rationally….without ever expressing even a part of it via “verbal behavior”. — Mww

So we are in agreement, after all.

Where did I say or hint at that? All representation of thought in humans is linguistic, whether vocal or otherwise. It is thought itself, that is not, in that humans think in images, THAT being my major metaphysical contention from which all else follows. — Mww

I even agree that humans sometimes think in images. I can testify from my own experience that not all humans do that, but it is quite sufficient for me that they sometimes do.

Ever considered how hard it is to express an image? Why else would there even be a language, other than to both satisfy the necessity to express, and overcome the impossibility of expressing in mere imagery? And there’s evolution for ya, writ large. — Mww

Oh, I think there's more to language than making good the deficiencies of images. Some people think that an image is worth a thousand words, so there are deficiencies in words, as well. Perhaps its a question of horses for courses.

……and I do not, not that it matters. In general, theory and logic depend on an intellect capable of constructing them. That to which each is directed, the relations in the former or the truths in the latter, may depend on our way of life, but method always antecedes product. — Mww

H'm. What precedes method? Or do we construct methods and then discover what they produce?

All people are human beings. All human beings are people. Two names for the same thing. If animals are like all human beings in certain respects, then all people are like animals in certain respects.
Makes sense. — creativesoul

I'm so glad you think so. I'm afraid it is a rather boring conclusion and so seems to be of little interest here.

What about human behaviour cannot be described in behaviourist terms? (Fortunately, that fad has faded) — Vera Mont

Nothing. That's why it was so frustrating to argue with. Strict behaviourism left out everything that made actions what they are and represented them as a series of meaningless twitches.

I'm talking about behaving according to reason. Do animals use reason to inform their actions before they act? People seem to be saying that animal behavior, like human behavior, shows evidence of being influenced by some level of that animal's thoughts. Thinking, conceptualizing, wanting and choosing leading to actions. I disagree, for many reasons. — Fire Ologist

Granted that sometimes we use reason to inform our actions before we act, we do not always do so. Sometimes, we must act without working out reasons beforehand. Otherwise there would be an infinite regress of preparation to act.

That's what we are doing when we insert rationality in animal agents. We can't explain their behavior without saying it is like our behavior, so we just say they must be doing what we are doing. But like intelligent design, saying a dog is using reason and thinking things, is not the only explanation, nor the simplest or demonstrative of the most evidence. — Fire Ologist

To describe what's going as "insert" rationality begs the question. The rationality is not an add-on or an insertion into the act. It is inherent in the act, or it is nothing.
You describe the animal as an agent, which makes their case quite different from the inference of a designer from the design. Nice argument. But the two cases are not parallel, so they don't work.
You are right that there are difficult issues about reading too much, or too little into an action. But that problem applies just as strongly to our reading of human actions, so you can't conclude from the difficulties that the way of looking at dogs, or human as agents - and therefore rational agents - is a mistake. When we recognize that animals are conscious, perceptive, creatures who have wants and desires, the only question is how far you can apply our paradigm of personhood, not whether you can apply it at all. If you question whether animals are conscious perceptive agents, then you are implictly question whether human are conscious, perceptive agents, and that makes no sense.

Philosophy of Mind. Saying my dog is communicating with me when he begs for food is placing a mind of his own in the dog. — Fire Ologist

I wouldn't say "placing", but recognizing. I think when we imagine that trees or storms have minds, we are "placing" a mind in them - otherwise known as personifying them. But that's just a way of speaking, not a metaphor. Few people nowadays that there really is a mind behind in them - though people used to.

like I place a mind in a dog to help build a rational explanation for how good he is at obtaining bowls to lick. — Fire Ologist

No, it is his skills at obtaining bowls to lick that justify recognizing that there is a mind at work there. It's like swallows and summer. There's a complex interplay between the symptoms of summer and the recognition that it is summer.

The chemical is not a living thing. The plant is not an animal. The animal is not a reasoning mind. These are all different. All with their own complexities and goods and beauties, and simplicities, bads, and uglinesses. — Fire Ologist

Oh, I can get behind that. For all my defence of animal rationality, I recognize that dogs are not people. They are like people, but that's different. Or, perhaps better, they are people, but differently. And some animals, but not all. But that position doesn't have the excitement or simplicity of the dogmatic, all-or-nothing approach.

Lastly, none of the above speaks to what reason really is. Reason happens in a mind. Minds happen in a consciousness. Animals have a consciousness. So, just like my dog, I am a conscious, sensing, perceiving being. Somewhere in the evolutionary process, animal consciousness, along with sense perception, came to include concepts and thoughts. Like the chemical became the protein, and the protein became the cell, and the cell became the animal, the human animal became "self" conscious or a thinking, reflecting thing. — Fire Ologist

Yes, self-consciousness is tempting as a distinction between animals and humans. So people have done experiments with mirrors and concluded that some animals are self-conscious because they can recognize themselves in a mirror. I think there's more to it than that. Existing as a conscious being requires a recognition of the difference between self and other. So some level of self-consciousness is inherent in consciousness. Even that may not be the end of it.

If the ability is not learned (I don't see how it could be), then it is instinctive. And it is complex. Therefore, instinctive skills are not necessarily simple. — Patterner

Oops! Typo. Will correct. Thanks.

The first point to note is that Chomsky is adamant that only humans possess language (hence the title!) — Wayfarer

Yes. Note that Chomsky and I part ways at this point. The definition begs the question whether animal communication systems count as languages. I'll let that pass for the sake of the argument.
Let's suppose that language learning is a case of human exceptionalism. I've already admitted that humans, as a distinct species, will be exceptional in some respects. One would have to show that this is an exception of more significance that the ability of Monarch butterfly to migrate back to the summer home of its ancestors without ever having been there.

For perspective, try this article from Scientific American.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-rebuts-chomsky-s-theory-of-language-learning/

Wallace believed that natural selection could not fully explain these advanced cognitive faculties because they seemed disproportionate to the practical demands of survival in hunter-gatherer societies. — Wayfarer

I wouldn't discount that possibility. But it seems normal now to allow for that situation and to posit that selections other than survival, for example sexual selection, would kick in at that point. The story of the Irish elk is of interest. (It was first identified in Ireland from the large number of remains found there, but its has been found across Western Europe to Lake Baikal in Siberia. This variety of elk grew huge antlers, far bigger than could be of use in a fight. That first though to be an example for Wallace, but now the favoured explanation is that sexual selection enabled this. But, the story goes, they grew so big that they became a hindrance in normal life. The result was the species became extinct about 7,700 years ago.

The philosophical point is that reason is able to grasp universal terms, such as 'man' or 'dog' or 'energy'. — Wayfarer

Are you suggesting that my dog does not know the difference between humans (and between men and women and children) and dogs, not to mention many other things? That one won't fly. I grant you that she probably lacks a concept of energy. But that doesn't affect the question whether she's rational or not.

Another point - I'm coming around to the view that organic life is 'intentional' from the get-go. The quotes are because it's not intentional in the sense of acting in accordance with conscious intent, as rational agents do, but that as soon as life exists, there is already a rudimentary sense of 'self' and 'other', as the first thing any living organism has to do, is maintain itself against the environment, as distinct from simply dissolving or being subsumed by whatever processes are sorrounding it. So right from the outset, living organisms can't be fully explained in terms of, or reduced to, physical and chemical laws. This is an idea I'm trying to explore through a couple of difficult books, Terrence Deacon's 'Incomplete Nature' and Evan Thompson's 'Mind in Life'. (Pretty slow going, though :yikes: ) — Wayfarer

Yes. Skipping whether intentional is the quite the right word for it, the argument is plausible, so far as it goes. Some of the models of autonomous systems that Thompson discusses are very persuasive. People often suggest that feedback loops are also not reducible to conventional causality (what that is, these days). But "reducible" has become a complex concept nowadays, so I reserve my position and watch with interest. It's all a long way from what we're discussing, though.

Try explaining the concept ‘prime number’ to her. — Wayfarer

I hope you are not suggesting that because I don't understand even calculus, I'm not rational. It's not altogether irrelevant (given that we're also discussion the "g" factor) to point out that my school streamed me as sub-calculus in mathematics at the same time as it streamed me in the advanced classes for Ancient Greek and Latin.

It was the only essay I ever failed. Served me right, too. — Wayfarer

It was a bit harsh, given that it was your first essay and nobody warned you about inter-disciplinary boundaries. That's how Kuhnian paradigms are enforced. You don't get to qualify unless you conform - at least until you've qualified in orthodoxy. Nowadays, that's a perfectly respectable issue. I suppose other people swallowed their doubts until they got an academic post and tenure.

Perhaps it is worth pointing out, that most psychologists probably strongly agree with your view on "g". — wonderer1

That's good to know. Years ago, I was part of a team that taught an interdisciplinary course for psychology students. Intelligence was part of the programme and I got to give a lecture on it. I did my best with them, but most of them stuck to the party line - I couldn't criticize them for that. But perhaps I did contribute in a small way to that change.

I know about that story - but what is the point? I've never claimed anywhere in this thread that animals are insensitive, or even that they lack intelligence. What is at issue is whether they're rational. And despite all the bluster and whataboutism, very little is being said about that by yourself or the other defenders of the view that they are. — Wayfarer

That explains a good deal that was puzzling me. I suppose that's an example of how one tends to get over-focused in these discussions. On the other hand, it may be that people felt that neither was equivalent to rationality and so left it on one side.

One of the problems about discussing intelligence is that it is not easy to grasp a definition of it that is amenable to philosophical discussion. However, I found the the following in an article on intelligence in "Psychology Today" that might provide a starting-point. "IQ" and "Giftedness" were proffered as one-word summaries. Then I found

Reading a road map upside-down, excelling at chess, and generating synonyms for "brilliant" may seem like three different skills. But each is thought to be a measurable indicator of general intelligence or "g," a construct that includes problem-solving ability, spatial manipulation, and language acquisition that is relatively stable across a person's lifetime.

For the record, I'm extremely dubious about the construct "g", but happy to think about more specific skills, with some reservations about "problem-solving ability" - surely much will depend on the kind of problem? My question is, then, what is the relationship between intelligence and rationality? It seems to me that all the skills cited involve rationality - intelligence is about the difference between being good (better than average) at these skills or not. So my next question is why you think that someone can be intelligent but not rational?

Sensitivity. I take it that you have in mind the ability to see, hear, etc, in the same ways as we do (roughly) and with all due deference to any possible sixth sense. So my dog can see (and recognize) me and respond appropriately to my return home, can hear her meal being prepared in the kitchen and present herself in good order, and so forth. Would that be fair? We can agree also that it shows intelligence (in the more generic sense of "understanding"). But what grounds are there for withholding the accolade of rationality? That she doesn't speak English? I don't think so.

I can only agree with you that it would have been helpful if someone had paid more careful attention to what you said.

Sentimentality, you mean ;-) — Wayfarer

No, I mean sensitivity, which can be excessive, just as insensitivity can be excessive.

There was a major fuss at one point in the seventies, when people realized that unsentimental scientists were testing the toxicity of certain products by dropping them into the eyes of rabbits. Their criterion for a dangerously toxic dose was that 50% of the rabbits died. Hence the test was known as "LD50". In the process, the rabbits often suffered extreme pain (or at least the scientists knew that a human would have suffered extreme pain, which was why they were testing the products on rabbits). So the rabbits screamed in agony. In an effort to be objective, they described this behaviour as vocalizing. The public thought differently, and controls on vivisection were, eventually, strengthened.

You may also like to consider:-

I started a thread a while back on something I had read that Descartes used to flay dogs alive, assuring onlookers that their cries of agony were due only to mechanical reactions, not any genuine feeling of pain. During the course of the thread, I did more research, and discovered that this was not true, and that at one point, Descartes had a pet dog which he treated with affection. However, the anecdote was not entirely devoid of fact, because students at a Dutch university who were followers of Descartes' mechanical philosophy did, in fact, perform those dreadful 'experiments', and it is true that Descartes believed that animals were automata without souls, as he identified the soul with the ability to reason. — Wayfarer

However, I do have serious trouble attributing these concepts to bacteria and amoeba. Insects also seem to me to be too mechanical to qualify - Wittgenstein says somewhere that "the concept of pain does not get a foothold in the case of a wriggling fly. Yet I also think that tearing the wings off a fly is cruel torture. Fish in general are also too alien to impact much on me, though I'm pretty sure that lobsters feel pain (partly because they have the same kind of nerve cells as the ones that register pain in human beings) and so think that the practice of boiling them alive is cruel. There are lines to be drawn here, and it's not easy.

Especially as opposed to through emotion. — Patterner

I'm afraid that opposition is under severe pressure. There's a lot of research these days into the relationship (intertwining) of them. For example:-
Cognition and Emotion Journal

Still, I make that judgement. It's entirely subjective, after all. I think our intelligence and consciousness (I believe the two are very tightly intertwined) is the most extraordinary thing we are aware of, and capable of more wonders than we can imagine. — Patterner

"Subjective" is a much more complex concept than traditional philosophies want to recognize. In particular, assessing something to be extraordinary, if it is to be meaningful, requires a context that defines what is ordinary. That is, it depends on your point of view. There are points of view that see human achievements as extraordinary (good sense) and as extraordinary (bad sense). There are points of view that see human achievements as different in kind from anything that animals can do and points of view that see human achievements as developments of what animals can do. All of these have a basis. What makes any of them "better" than the others? I'm not sure. But I think the point of view that insists on the continuities between humans and animals is more pragmatic than the others. Stalemate. Pity.

The precise point we're at right now, is whether animals, such as dogs, can form concepts in the absence of language. I'm saying that conceptual thought is dependent on language. I thought you were saying that it is not dependent, and I was questioning you on sources for that contention. — Wayfarer

I am indeed saying that conceptual thought is not solely dependent on language. The concepts we have are revealed (better, expressed) in our use of language - i.e. in verbal behaviour. So it is no great stretch to say that concepts are revealed just as surely in non-verbal behaviour as in verbal behaviour.

Dogs (I'll stick to the concrete example, if I may) have concepts, but not language. Their concepts are shown in their (non-verbal) actions - as are ours, if you recognize meaning as use. — Ludwig V

A rather bold statement, is it not? Dogs, and other lesser animals sufficiently equipped with vocalizing physiology, seem to communicate with each other, albeit quite simply, which carries the implication of a merely instinctive simple skill. — Mww

Not particularly. As I said above:- The concepts we have are revealed (better, expressed) in our use of language - i.e. in verbal behaviour. So it is no great stretch to say that concepts are revealed just as surely in non-verbal behaviour as in verbal behaviour.
Why do you assume that only vocal behaviour is linguistic?
In any case, iInstinctive skills are not necessarily simple. Someone brought up the Monarch butterflies' ability to navigate, which is clearly not learned, yet is, one would have thought, quite complex.

And with that, the notion of discursive rational thought, the construction of pure a priori logical relations as contained, theoretically, in the human intellect, falls by the wayside in those lesser, indiscernible, intellects. — Mww

To be sure, animals do not indulge in our logic games and, likely, do not engage in our theoretical practices. Nonetheless, both theory in general and logic in particulate depend on, and grew from, our way of life (if you believe Wittgenstein, and I do - but that's another argument). I also believe (though I can't claim any authority from Wittgenstein) that, since we are animals, it seems most reasonable to suppose that our way of life is a one variety of the many varieties of animal ways of life.

Differences in degree do indeed produce differences in kind. — javra

Homo Sapiens is a species of an utterly different kind than that of any other species on Earth with which we co-inhabit (most especially with all the other hominids that once existed now being extinct). — javra

There's a dissonance between those two statements - not exactly a contradiction, but close. How do you get from one to the other?

I'll hasten to add that our species is nevertheless yet tied into the tree of life via an utmost obtainment, else utmost extreme, within a current spectrum of degrees - this as, for example, concerns qualitative magnitudes of awareness, of forethought, and the like. But this in no way then contradicts that we humans are of an utterly different kind than all other living species on Earth. — javra

That looks very like trying to have your cake and eat it.

I know of more than a few anecdotes of lesser animals giving all appearances of having a sixth-sense, as it's often termed. — javra

Yes. Whether there is anything substantial behind it is an interesting question. But if they do, they are superior to us in that respect. Just as homing pigeons and other migratory species have superior navigational abilities to us (in that they don't require elaborate technologies to find their way about the globe). So why do you insist that they are lesser?

By studying the DNA we know when wild dogs became fully domestic. Dogs are not the only animals that can be domesticated — Athena

Yes. I didn't mean to suggest that we know absolutely nothing. The DNA evidence is good enough for me. So is the evidence from archaeology. But I also think that the details of how, exactly, it happened, don't have good empirical backing. Yet we can develop reasonable speculations on the basis of what we know about dogs and humans now. I'm just saying we do well to remember how thin the evidence is.

That is so interesting! When teaching bonobo how to communicate with a picture board maybe this reaction of following a point plays into the learning? Do you have more information about this? — Athena

I certainly think that the ability to (be taught to) follow a pointer is the basis for some very interesting learning/teaching opportunities, which the subject may or may not be capable of. I'm afraid you seem to have a good deal more information about empirical studies of animals than I do.

Not unlike human children, until their culture teaches them not only to tolerate but to cultivate and promote double- and triple-think. — Vera Mont

Yes, I know. Double-think is often a great nuisance and yet seems inescapable.

What counts as thinking? What counts as rational thinking? — creativesoul

The lack of clear definitions does indeed make this debate much more difficult. But there's no easy way round it. Someone who doesn't see rationality in animals will define it in one way, likely by appealing to "language", which is assumed to apply only to languages of the kind that humans speak. Someone who empathizes with animals will be more inclined to a more flexible definitions.

I don't think "rational" is about a single thing, but about the multifarious language games that a language consists of; they have different criteria of meaning and truth. "Rational" refers to thinking that gets us the right results. In some cases that's truth of some kind, in others it's actions that are successful by the relevant criteria.

So here's my answer for this context. Meaning and concepts are shown in meaningful behaviour, which includes both verbal and non-verbal applications of the relevant concepts. This means that to attribute concepts to animals is perfectly meaningful, though not capable of the formal clarity beloved of logicians.

Much is made of learning from each other. — Patterner

Yes. Not just in formal teaching/learning situations, but in everyday interaction. At that age, everything is a learning opportunity.

... because, at least in humans, language is a huge part of a culture. How can we say either lead to the other? — Patterner

We can't say either leads to the other. The ability to speak and to interact with people are intertwined with each other.

Second, many species live in groups, and many have been doing so for far longer than we have. — Patterner

Good point. And why not? you may ask. But I'm pushing the point that our way of like is developed from animal ways of life and, in my opinion, cannot be down to just one factor, but to many interacting factors. All of which may have existed independently in the animal kingdom, but "took off", so to speak, when they developed together.

And, in my opinion, the way we are special is of more value, and has greater impact, than the way any the other species is special. (Also, The Incredibles?) — Patterner

I don't see how you can possible make that judgement. Given that our specialness is as much a curse and a blessing, to the rest of the planet and ourselves as well.

I would be surprised if you think a parent in any other species has ever gone through the depth or duration of emotional pain that you have. — Patterner

One is always tempted to think that it is worse for me than anyone else. I don't believe in comparing these things - "My grief is greater/lesser than yours" does not help anybody. It was a while ago, but it is, of course, very far from forgotten.

But does anyone think without words? — Patterner

Well, I once encountered someone (on another forum) who claimed that he planned how to pack his suitcase by imagining various arrangements of the things he had to pack - visually. He said it worked for him. How could I argue with him? I can't be dogmatic about it. If he could think in images, why can't dogs? Suggestive thought - Dogs do appear to have dreams.

What I mean is, once they have it, they don't run with it. They do not use tools for new purposes, and don't apply ideas to new situations. — Patterner

There is truth in that. We have hyper-developed various capacities. But I don't think we have hyper-developed just one capacity.

No, dogs don't do math. I know many animals recognize groups of objects of certain sizes. That doesn't mean they count them, and it doesn't mean they can add and subtract. — Patterner

No they don't. So how do they catch Frisbees? Actually, since we can also catch Frisbees without doing any math, we know that math is not critical to catching Frisbees. So articulate reason is not the only rationality. On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that we can locate sounds in space because of the time and volume differences between our two ears. But we are not aware of that difference, except as implied in knowing the location of the sound. This is not a simple issue.

Nor do I think they have any concept of ethics. Does an alligator, lion, or eagle think it's wrong to kill and eat whatever its prey is? Does a fisher think it's wrong to kill someone's little dog? Have we ever seen any behavior that suggests the any animals have such thoughts? — Patterner

They don't see anything wrong with killing their prey. Most humans don't either. Sure, there are complications in this case, but it is not the whole of ethics.

Chimps, apparently, and perhaps dogs do have a sense of fair play in that if they see another chimp/dog being fed better than they are, they will protest, vigorously. Their apparent sense of outrage when the pecking order is disrupted is another example.

Substitute 'soul' with 'mind' and I think Cudworth makes a valid point. — Wayfarer

I did enjoy that. I'll always be more tolerant of platonists in future.

that they construct a conception antecedent to the inquiry, hence establishing its possibility. — Mww

Dogs (I'll stick to the concrete example, if I may) have concepts, but not language. Their concepts are shown in their (non-verbal) actions - as are ours, if you recognize meaning as use.

under what possible conditions would lesser animals be determinable as possessing it, or anything like it, insofar as the self-reflective necessity, is impossible? — Mww

Well, you can watch a dog searching for a weak spot in a fence, and getting their companion to come and help open it up. That suggests how they might solve some problems - and that's a process that we can recognize as rational - in humans and in dogs.

They may not climb mountains because they are there, (is that rational??) but they can gallop across a field because it's there and eat a snack because it's there. There are lots of different connections, which we can only ever know if we engage with them sympathetically, setting aside presuppositions so far as possible, or at least being willing to question them.

I once watched a flock of sheep in a field. One of them had found a gap in the fence, and the whole flock was queuing to get through it, all lined up in a single file, clearly politely waiting for others to get through as opposed to all making a mad dash at the same time. What did they expect to find? Greener grass, possibly, but there was nothing wrong with the grass they already had. Perhaps just because it was there. Who knows? Did they know? (I had to ring the farmer, who turned up in short order and wrecked my philosophical moment.)

Pretty silly, methinks: dog says to himself…. — Mww

Very sensible, your dog.

(Sigh) — Mww

Oh yes, I know that sigh.

Exactly the kind of relationship you can't have with an automaton. Experiencing this mutual animosity, he yet insisted that dogs don't think and feel the way we do. — Vera Mont

Yes. I know it seems crazy. And you are right that animals don't seem capable of tolerating that kind of cognitive dissonance. They do seem wonderfully simple and direct by comparison with humans.

Our culture and philosophy generally lacks the language within which to interpret the word. It is usually treated as synonymous with religious dogma and rejected on those grounds. — Wayfarer

Those are both real problems. But I don't think it is just a question of religious dogma, but of metaphysical and ethical dogma. It gets used as an attempt to bolster views that are inherently problematic without addressing the problems.

But they aren’t using reason — Fire Ologist

Humans can judge (view) the dog's reaction as rational, not that it is rational. Fire's comment went on to explain that he does not see any evidence that the dog is using reason. — L'éléphant

This is exactly right, in one way. It is a question of interpreting what is in front of us. There's a problem, however, about the distinction between seeing the dog's reaction as rational and it being rational. That suggests that It is not a question of inferring from the dog's actions to something else, such as an inner experience or brain state. That takes us straight into a morass of undecidability and metaphysical speculation. Yet there is a real issue about assigning truth or falsity to an interpretation - it's very likely not possible.

The issue is what the principle of interpretation should be. If one adopts one principle or the other, it is not a question of some fact that provides evidence one way or the other, but what conclusions the evidence in front of us justifies - and that depends on what principle of interpretation we adopt.

The difficulty is to identify how to justify the principle of interpretation independently of assessing the evidence.
You are drawing the distinction between interpreting the dog's reaction and what the dog's reaction actually is (presumably, independently of any interpretation). But when it comes to interpretation, that's a very tricky question and the answer is by no means self-evident. In other words, the question is now how to distinguish between interpretation and reality? Or maybe how to decide when interpretation is reality?

Animals don’t read reasons. Otherwise we read off of smells and visions and feelings. Like other animals. And “read” in this context is metaphor for sensation. We read reasons, Animals don’t read anything (except metaphorically). — Fire Ologist

You are very confident about that. What grounds do you have? Or is this simply a decision about how you are going to interpret what they do and what they don't do? You can jump either way. But I want to know what justifies your choice. (Because I make a different choice and I'm prepared to go into my reasons/justifications.)

A dog doesn’t wonder if he is barking loud enough, if the volume of his barking is a reasonable volume to convey its fear of the cougar to the rest of the pack. The dog sees the cougar, and the dog barks. — Fire Ologist

The condition "if the volume of his barking is a reasonable to convey...." means that his barking is a rational response. If the rest of the pack don't respond, he will likely bark louder, which demonstrates a feed-back loop, which implies rational, purposive control of the bark.

Reason involves logical inference, representational language, judgment and choice. We have to use reason to deliberate and make a choice. We have to use judgment to choose what objects are the most reasonable objects to deliberate about. When we focus our reason on a subject, we are choosing that focus. These are all human things. — Fire Ologist

Yes, there are a range of activities that are constitute what I think you mean by "using reason". I agree that we do not recognize any animal activities that we can interpret as doing those things. (Actually, I'm not at all sure that's true, but let's suppose it is for the sake of the argument)

But here's the problem. If those activities are the only basis for rational action, what leads us to suppose that it is rational to engage in them.

If this idea were correct, the only basis for supposing that when we engage in those activities in relation to taking an umbrella when we leave the house is that we have debated and considered whether to take an umbrella. But what makes us suppose that it is rational to engage in debating and considering? The only answer is that we have debated and considered whether it is rational to engage in debating and considering whether it is rational to engage in debating and considering. I hope you see the infinite regress looming. I conclude that at some point, we do not engage in debating and considering before acting and yet are acting rationally.

Since we can act rationally without debating and considering what to do, there is no reason to suppose that animals cannot act rationally without debating and considering what to do.

When the air in my house is above 75 degrees, the air conditioning goes on and the house is cooled and the thermostat reacts to the cooler temperature and shuts off the air conditioner.
I could say that my air conditioner uses its thermostat to sense the temperature and then desires to cool the house so it rationally engages the air conditioner until the house reaches the system’s desired temperature.
Or I could just say it’s all a system of stimuli and responses with no inner life, self-awareness, decision-making capability or rational capability.
We could say the same thing about animals.
Determinists (use reason) to say the same thing about humans.
Maybe the better question is do humans have the ability to reason? My answer would be that formulating a question like that displays behavior of a being capable of reason.
Animals don’t ask questions. Ever. — Fire Ologist

Quite so. It's about how we interpret the phenomena. We can interpret them in a causal framework, or we can interpret them in a rational framework. Confusingly, we can sometimes interpret the same phenomena in both frameworks. Our question is which one is more appropriate in this or that case? People seem to be quite happy to make the choice (some in one way, some in the other), but to find it very difficult to engage in an argument about which is the better choice - even though they have made a choice. It's very difficult and confusing. That's when the real philosophy begins

I think your story is close to the story of how dogs became domesticated. A few wild dogs dared to come close to humans .... This led to genetic changes that made domestic dogs domestic. ... — Athena

One does feel that something like that must have happened. But we don't have, and probably never will have any detailed evidence about what actually happened. It's important to keep hold of the proviso. Philosophers are very fond of "it must be that way, so it is that way" - and less fond of being proved wrong.

Interestingly they are the only animals that will investigate where we point. Domestic dogs have learned to read us and how to manipulate us as well as how to be excellent hunting partners and service dogs. The bottom line this is genetic. — Athena

Yes. I'm sure there have been genetic changes in dogs. But, by the same token, also in humans. Note also that training is involved as well - learning to live together. I believe that pigs can also follow a pointer. It is significant, of course, because pointing (ostensive definition) is usually thought to be fundamental in learning language.

I did more research, and discovered that this was not true, and that at one point, Descartes had a pet dog which he treated with affection. However, the anecdote was not entirely devoid of fact, — Wayfarer

I had heard about this, so I'm very pleased to know the truth of it. Thank you. Comment - It was a myth and like all, good myths, it was based on a truth and captured a deeper truth in spite of deviating from the facts.

But I argue that with language, rationality, and also the capacity for transcendent insight, h.sapiens have crossed a threshhold which differentiates us from other animals, and that this difference is something we have to be responsible for, rather than denying. — Wayfarer

I'm very cautious about transcendence. It has been very common to take a reasonable idea and turn it into a fantasy.

(In reality, he was probably exaggerating, and the dog was simply annoyed at his attitude. People get very huffy when they're disliked or disapproved-of.) — Vera Mont

There's a feed-back loop. Human doesn't respond to dog's greeting. Dog is confused and unhappy and withdraws. Human thinks that dog dislikes them, which is not wrong, so gets prickly - body language, looks away. Dog gets further upset. It's about a dynamic relationship.

We humans can judge a dog’s reaction as a rational response or not, but I see no evidence that a dog is using reason prior to any response or after the fact, or during a “communication.” — Fire Ologist

OK. So it turns out that you will accept that a dog's reaction is a rational response, but deny that the dog is rational because they don't "use reason". I take it that you mean that the dog doesn't say out loud "This is the situation, so I should do that." But humans often act without verbalizing their reasons out loud. Does that mean they aren't rational either?

This is feeling and reacting not reasoning. Chimps needing a new troop will approach very carefully and hang around the fringes until invited in. — Athena

Well, if the feelings are rational and the reactions appropriate, what's the problem saying the meerkats, chimps or crows are rational?

The difference is about HOW we think, not WHAT we think. And the difference is being as an animal or as an evolved human being. — Athena

Are you talking about the out loud verbalizing of your reasons for doing something - or the maybe silent process of planning an action? But if you have to plan each action to be counted as rational, then you have to plan to plan, and plan to plan to plan.... If you have to verbalize your reasons for doing something if you are to count as acting rationally, then you have to verbalize your reasons for verbalizing your reasons... No, No, that doesn't work. It has to be possible to act without verbalizing reasons and without advance planning and yet to act rationally.

I once had an acquaintance who steadfastly denied that animals other than man had intelligence or any form of thought; he maintained that they are little more than automata that respond to stimuli without any understanding. Then he told me that his neighbour's German Shepherd hated him. (Gee, I wonder why!) — Vera Mont

They always know. It's the body language. Kids are pretty good at it, too. But we lose the knack when we get grown-up. Pity.

I think our ability to behave as rational human beings may be fragile. I think education focused on technology and not our development as good family members and good citizens, may have led to a much higher rate of irrational behavior. I think this happened to Germany and became the Nazi phenomenon. A social value shift that may come with threats of social breakdown. — Athena

Oh, I'm quite sure that our ability to behave rationally is fragile. I'm sorry to hear about your sister's behaviour.

However, I'm inclined to think this points to meerkats having at least some aspects of what could be considered criitical thinking. — wonderer1

Well, I wouldn't attribute the whole gamut of human critical skills to meerkats. Just some basics.

I think on this thread, we keep missing the point when we say ..."but animals also do this or that.."
Like us, animals can and do learn from each other. — L'éléphant

I don't doubt it. But I'm not clear what point you think we are missing. The key question is what, if anything, distinguishes humans from other animals. The issue is whether there is not merely a difference, but a difference so significant that it represents a difference in kind. So "but animals do this or that... " is the point.
It might be the case that a wider range of questions would be of interest. Why not try something out?

I do not believe we are thinking rationally unless we are using higher-order critical thinking skills. Each critical thinking skill is important but maybe this one is the most challenging.. — Athena

Yes, you are right. But you are setting a very high bar. Most of what we do does not involve critical thinking. Left to ourselves, we will only think critically when something is going wrong or in new and unfamiliar circumstances. You may have seen my story about the birds. Here's another. (I can't give you my source for this either, so treat it as a thought-experiment).

Meerkats actually post sentries who do not join in the feeding, but keep watch and raise the alarm when an intruder turns up. The other meerkats keep some food for the sentry, who feeds when all the others have finished. New members of the group are not permitted to act as sentries for a while. Eventually, they are allowed to stand sentry, but at first, when they raise the alarm, the others check it out before everyone rushes to their burrows underground. Eventually, when the sentry has been proved reliable, they are not checked out.
Is that not critical thinking? Or maybe critical thinking is less advanced than you think?

I don’t know this for sure. — Fire Ologist

H'm. In a way, I'm glad to hear it. I do agree that it is not an easy matter to identify what beliefs and what desires motivate animals. A general, perhaps rather vague, view is the most we can expect. Can a dog feel guilty or embarrassed? I'm not sure. Can a dog feel fear and anger? Oh, yes, definitely.

Humans bother to seek and communicate reasons and ideas through language with other humans. Dogs don’t bother with all of that. Neither does the sun. Every sound isn’t a word. Every response of a conscious animal isn’t born out of a self-reflective process of reasoning. — Fire Ologist

Perhaps better "Humans sometimes bother.... but not always". When they don't, we still read off their reasons from their behaviour. So what's so odd about reading off dogs' reasons from what they do?

It’s very romantic to personify things. Like the warm embrace of the dawn after the night’s unrelenting assault of darkness and cold. — Fire Ologist

Yes. Not a very persuasive argument. Perhaps the view of animals as machines is a welcome coolness of the evening after a hot day.

Dog barks to warn the pack? Or a dog sees something and just bursts into a bark? Pack hears one of its members making barking sounds and thinks “what is wrong?” Or pack just hears barking sounds and moves directly towards whatever range of responses have survived the evolutionary process? — Fire Ologist

OK. You know how one reads something and remembers the content but not the details or where you read it. I have an example like that, which I'll present as a thought experiment, although I believe it is an observation of actual behaviour.
I expect you know that many birds will warn the whole flock when intruders appear. Is the bird warning the flock or just shouting in fear when it spots an intruder? Hard to tell. But then you notice that some birds will shout an alarm when there is no intruder. All the other birds fly off, but the noisy one stays, with free access to all the food. Ah, no, you think. That's just reflex responses. But then the other birds, having learnt that the shouty bird is a liar will ignore future warnings from that bird. Is it really plausible to interpret that is "just reflexes" and not rational responses to a developing situation?

Because of the debate between free will and determinism, we might say that humans are not actually rational either, incapable of communicating a single communication clearly. Equating human behavior with animal behavior along the lines that none of us are using reason or making communications seems an easier argument than saying human and animal behaviors are equal in that they both involve levels of reasoning and communication. — Fire Ologist

You are right to think of this. I think you are choosing the harder path and I'll try to show you why.

Animals make sounds and other other animals react to those sounds. Humans see this as communication. But the animal that made the sound may have been forced to make that sound by some conditions, just like the other animal that responded to that sound was forced to respond. — Fire Ologist

How does this sound? "Humans make sounds and other humans react to those sounds. Animals see this as communication. But the human that made the sound may have been forced to make that sound by some conditions, just like the other human that responded to that sound was forced to respond." It's a question of interpretation, of employing a model, not an empirical fact.

Animals have behaviors, many of which humans share (eating, sleeping, hunting, etc.). One of the behaviors humans exhibit is reasoning, or being rational. This involves language and communication with other reasoners. — Fire Ologist

Rational behaviour is not just a set of behaviours distinct from everything else - talking, pondering etc. Rationality is on display in nearly everything that we do. Taking the umbrella when leaving the house is a rational behaviour. Going into the kitchen when hungry is rational behaviour. The dog's sitting staring at you when hungry is also rational behaviour.

But seems to me, if any thing in the universe used reason, it could make that ability clear to me by communication. Nothing else bothers to communicate a reasonable idea besides other humans. — Fire Ologist

Had you perhaps thought that the animals are communicating, but you're not hearing, because you don't believe that they communicate?

Animals don’t need any of it. We personify animals when we call their behavior rational like our behavior is rational. — Fire Ologist

How do you know that their behaviour is not rational "like our behaviour is rational"? Is there some other kind of rational that it could be?

Why do you say that animals don't need any of it - do you mean, language, communication and math? Many of them certainly have communication skills and can do things that seem to require mathematics, like catching Frisbees. Whether they have language or not is unanswerable until we agree our definition of language.

Fortunately, human beings can also communicate without language and do things that seem to require mathematics without having learnt the necessary mathematics. If we can do it, they can do it - or it is at least possible.

The foundation of our recognition of human beings as (sometimes) rational people is our relationship with them and their relationship with us. The same foundation is the basis of our attributing or withholding perception emotion and reason to them.

You can "see" an animal as a bunch of reflexes if you choose to. You can see an animal as a person if you choose to. That choice is a decision how far to extend your paradigm of a person in the context of your interactions with them. It is a hinge for how you see them and how you interpret what you see. I can try to persuade you that either extreme doesn't really make sense, but a conclusive demonstration either way is not to be expected.

Humans insert “reason” and deliberate some responses. We draw these deliberations out by communicating our reasons with other humans. — Fire Ologist

They can follow this leader or that one, but they are not going to debate the reasoning. — Athena

Well, let's allow, for the sake of the argument, that animals do not and cannot debate in the way that humans do. I'll accept also that debating is a skill that demands a capacity for rational thought. But you seem to think it is a necessary (probably not sufficient?) skill for rational thought. But does that really make sense?

I'll go further and say that although it is tempting to think that articulating one's reasons is what rationality is about, it is simply wrong. Articulating one's reasons for a rational action is an optional extra, distinct from the capacity for rational action. In the first place, people often find it quite difficult to explain why they did what they did when you ask. They have to stop and think about it immediately after they carried out the action. In the second place, we often act very fast when we need to. There simply isn't time to say to oneself "The traffic light has changed, it is dangerous and illegal to cross against the light, I had better stop". Indeed, the same applies when I look up at the sky and pick up an umbrella as I leave the house. I may say to myself or another that it looks like rain and I'll take an umbrella, and I may not.

They do have emotional bonds and this is so close to reasoning, it is hard to draw the line. — Athena

Yes. Even psychologists are abandoning the old conception of emotions as (purely subjective and irrational "feelings") and recognizing that cognition is part and parcel of the concepts.

I've brought up the subject of pattern recognition a lot on the forum. It's a quite useful concept in understanding the way people think. — wonderer1

Am I right to think that we are somewhere near the old-fashioned concept of a Gestalt? I think there is a lot to be said for it. It is not been a good thing that the atomistic methodology of empirical philosophers has not been helpful for philosophy or psychology. Patterns of behaviour.

Elephants seem like they might be well justified in disagreeing. Why waste time trying to figure out how to open a gate, if knocking the gate down is a trivial matter? — wonderer1

No, Knocking down the gate is perfectly rational, if it works for you. What is very telling is if the elephant tries to knock down the gate, finds s/he can't and then tries a different tactic. I didn't think to cover that case, that's all.


Funny how it works, isn't it? At the time, big headache, furious. Looking back, admirable, proud of them.
I have the impression that they are no longer with you. If so, I expect it's bittersweet. The full story is even more convincing than the short version.

In my book, opening doors and gates is rational thinking. Battering them down would not be, unless it was preceded by trying to open them. I can't assume that everyone will agree.

In my book, however, this is not a simple empirical question. As far as I can see, it is fair to say that our paradigm (NOT definition) of a person is a human being (under normal circumstances). Animals are like human beings in certain respects such that it seems most reasonable to think that they are like people. Crucially, it is clearly possible for human beings to form relationships with animals that are, or are like, relationships with people. But it's a balance. Some people do not go far enough and treat them as machines which can easily result in inhumane treatment. Other people go too far and get accused, sometimes rightly, of anthropomorphization.

I have to go now. But I look forward to seeing what happens next. :smile:

Clearly, not all thinking is existentially dependent upon words. — creativesoul

That's the minority opinion. — Vera Mont

Maybe I'm just stubborn, but I think that truth is not an issue that can be resolved by voting. Though I know that being in a minority can be discouraging.

Language less creatures have no words. Yet, they think about the world. Clearly, not all thinking is existentially dependent upon words. — creativesoul

Ver neat. You are changing the subject somewhat. It may prove fruitful. Contesting claims about what are or might be unique differentials between animals and humans has not been productive. The two sides appeared to me to be talking past each other - hence my remark about language.

In the mean time, I suggest that the question is partly whether thinking must be a process distinct from acting. My answer is no. For the sake of an example, here's one that @Vera Montshared with us a while ago:-

A not-so-clever Pyrennese who liked to roam would ask her border collie confederate to help her escape. The collie would stand on her hind legs and push on the far frame (not where it opens) with both paws of the big sliding patio door. She didn't have the weight to push it all the way open, but she'd slide it over just enough for the big dog to wedge her nose in and force it open. Then they would pad softly across the patio, around the corner of the house, duck behind the car and make their way down the drive. (I stopped them there, having watched the whole procedure. I was on guard, because they'd already gone AWOL twice.) — Vera Mont

Shared project, collaborative working, indirect approach to the problem. But no distinct moment that you could identify as "thinking".
It would be easy to provide what you might call a rational reconstruction of the action - a series of propositions attributing various beliefs/knowledges to the dogs and reconstructing a deductive process. That would provide what we commonly call an rational explanation of their actions. It doesn't rely on "what was going on in their minds".

Sure. If you define a word to mean what you want it to mean it will mean what you want it to mean.
I have not seen that particular definition: "rational thought is that to which possession of a suitable language is critical" in a dictionary. — Vera Mont

No, you won't. I'm talking about a philosophical position or even assumption, that the only true rational process is articulate reasoning which can only be laid out in language. I could have been clearer. Sorry.

LBJ began his political life in the Senate staunchly against civil rights legislation, but reversed his position as the tides began to turn. — jgill

That's politics for you. But I always understood that he was very effective (more effective than JFK?) in getting Civil Rights legislation through.

More or less. Frankly, I don't know what it has become since the "Squad" gained influence. — jgill

I think the problem of our times is that the left wing isn't clear what it's about. So many goals were achieved and the fall of the USSR was taken as "disproving" socialism. The right, these days, at least knows what it's about - and is much more ruthless in fighting for it. The left can't form a united front or articulate a coherent ideology.

Do you suppose the mother of a wildebeest that has watched it's child, perhaps more than one over the years, murdered, torn apart, and eaten, suffers the horrors I would? — Patterner

Do you suppose that I have any way of "really" understanding how any mother, never mind the mother of wildebeest, feels about the loss of a child - even though I have lost a child. The balance between understanding and projection is very difficult. To be more accurate, we can be pretty certain of our understanding at a general level, but when you get down to details it gets much, much more difficult.

I'm just saying we are unique in that we think in ways no other species thinks. — Patterner

I'm guessing that mathematics and perhaps ethics are examples of what you have in mind. Yet people seem quite happy to ask whether dogs can do calculus and to insist that they can make and execute a plan of action to achieve a common end. And then, attributing values to them seems inherent in saying that they are alive and sentient and social - even in saying that evolution applies to them.
I think you would question whether dogs can do any mathematics, never mind calculus, or really make and execute a plan. I also think you would question whether dogs really understand ethics, even if they have desires. There's a common theme, because it would not be unreasonable to think that (human) language is essential for both. Am I wrong?

Yet there is no spark of understanding. They somehow simply happened to stumble upon using X to accomplish Y, and they kept doing it. — Patterner

I don't understand you.
If a pigeon stumbles on the fact that pecking a specific item in their cage produces food and keeps on doing it until it has eaten enough, that it doesn't understand what is going on? It may not understand about the aims of the experiment or what an experiment is, but it understands what is important to it. In any case, human beings also stumble on facts and have no hesitation in exploiting them to the limit of their understanding (which is often quite severe and detrimental to their long-term interests).

And I'm not claiming I an incredibly special. We all are. Yes, even you. No member of any other species would be reacting the way you are now. One of the pitfalls of the ways we think that no other species does. — Patterner

I'm not denying what you say. But it's more complicated than that. If everybody is special, then nobody is special. So some explanation of what "special" means here is necessary.

Scientific humanism is hardly a fringe movement. It is hugely influential in modern culture. — Wayfarer

I know that. But that's compatible with many different formulations of what it is. Still, thanks for the responses. I'm most struck by the common denominator in the values involved. I'm more and convinced that this debate is underpinned by the ethical issues that underlie it. It's not (just) the facts, but what you make of them. But now I'm puzzled because scientific humanism seems to be a common or garden humanism with a respect for and faith in science. Or is that all there is to it?

Religion’s purpose then is to bring us back to the lost world of intimacy, and all its rites, rituals, and activities are created to this end. — The Violence of Oneness, Norman Fischer

@Wayfarer
That's all very well. But many people think, with reason, that the purpose of religion is keeping us all in line.

Evolutionary biology makes us part of a cosmic story, in which evolution and/or nature is now endowed with the kind of creativity that used to be assigned to God. — Wayfarer

Not really. Evolution does indeed imply creativity, but not the kind that was supposed for God. Divine omnipotence meant that the wish is sufficient. Not at all what evolution does.

You haven't seen any of the intelligence tests set for various other species by scientists? They do not, once in a century, 'stumble upon' solutions; they work them out logically and in a timely manner. — Vera Mont

I think @Patterner may be including trial and error under "stumbles upon". For me, "stumbles upon" is pure accident, without even recognizing the problem. Trial and error seems like a perfectly rational procedure. (When you can work out the solution in advance, it's not really a problem any more, since you know the answer.)

All i said was that these (sc. animal behaviours) are the product of rational thought, which, before the herculean humans endeavours, were expressed in the purposeful, conscious use of tools and other innovations by rational entities of lesser endowment, but nevertheless, with similar brains. — Vera Mont

That's very judicious and well balanced. But there are deeper issues. For example, what thought counts as rational? For some definitions, possession of a suitable language is critical and whether animal communication systems count as a language, never mind one suitable for rationality, is a moot point. So the possibility that the two sides are talking past each other remains.

So the mid-20th century party is the one you joined?

The Democrats used to be the party of the working class. They've become the party of the wealthy liberal elites and the poor who benefit from government services. — fishfry

Do you agree with fishfry about what the party has become?
If so, that's also the story of the Labour party - and it's also the story of the last ten years or so in the UK.

I've done that. I couldn't find delete either. I think there isn't one.

Though you can edit posts, so you can go to edit and delete the entire text and save an empty message. Not an appealing option.

You may be missing a point in your last message. It is not difficult to find a unique feature or features in any species. (That's largely how we identify them). The interesting question is what is the significance of those unique features. So the short reply to your list is simply that none of that proves that we are not animals. Whatever is unique, there are also features that we share with them and they with us. We are certainly not above them. Indeed, in some ways we might be thought to be below them. War?

But our ability to think in the ways we do, in ways nothing else is able to think, we are the undisputed masters of all these things. — Patterner

You could be right. But there are many contenders in the field. Language, (Rational) Thinking, Tool-making, Culture, Empathy, Moral sense, Social living. Each one is popular for a while - until empirical evidence pies up. It turns out that animals also have these things, or at least recognizable precursors. Reading publications from scientists about their research is often unhelpful, but, purely in the spirit of suggesting that you are casting your net too narrowly and long before science will catch up with you, here are two references that show how much empirical work is going on and how varied it is.

Scientific American 2014 - What Makes Humans Different Than Any Other Species

Scientific American 2018 - What Made Us Unique

The supreme irony is that if you ask what makes us human, you will likely find that the top contender is emotion. Which animals also clearly experience. Reason has had a bad reputation ever since the Industrial Revolution.

I'm beginning to think that this debate is a distraction.

Gets pretty lonely over here sometimes, I must say. — Mww

That's what comes of a) not thinking with the crowd and b) thinking about philosophy. I'm not ignoring you - it's just that I have limited bandwidth.

I think there's quite a lot of work both with you and Wayfarer to tease out "discovered" vs "constructed".