Government protection and services for the average - non-rich - citizen cost public money and therefore rely on taxation.Regulation only seems to be a problem when it benefits the people who actually use the products and services of these industries and who have to face the consequences of their ineptitude, negligence, and malfeasance. Worker safety, environmental, and consumer protection regulations cost money and reduce profits so they are considered unreasonable, too restrictive. — T Clark
Why would you assume that. It often entails changes in foreign relations, or public health, indigenous housing, environmental protection, elder care, energy distribution, education - issues far bigger than telling anybody how to live (so long as they don't harm others) or what to say (so long as they're not harming others with lies and abuse) or how they spend their money, (so long as they're not harming anybody.)I vote for what I want government to do at a given time. — Vera Mont
Does this entail telling others how to live their lives or what they can and can't say, or what they can spend their money on or not? — Harry Hindu
No, I don't. Seems like, whatever anyone says, you just keep hearing the same refrain.You sound just like a Rep. Reps say the same thing. — Harry Hindu
Sorry. Not within my purview. Never mind; Trump will abolish parties, elections, every kind of speech, hate and thought that's not in line with his - on any given day.Abolish political parties. Abolish group-think and group-hate. — Harry Hindu
Why would I have meant that???? Different voters have different priorities; I know what mine are. If all of the available candidates have a clean record, and are true to their party platforms, I really don't care about their home life, how they dress or what they eat. I vote for what I want government to do at a given time. Liberetartian twits are not on my radar, any more than religious nuts.You're saying you do your research into candidates but don't understand their differences? — Harry Hindu
Or he's been paying attention to the results of previous elections, as I have.I vote party line Democrat. I’ll never vote for a Republican. Voting for third-party candidates is voting for Republicans. — T Clark
Sounds like someone who lets others do their thinking for them. — Harry Hindu
I know of a dozen reasons, that have roots in the recent and distant past, but I will not discuss them here, for lack of sufficient space and time. In brief: fear and loathing beat out joy and optimism. A considerable amount of Repub cheating didn't help.Why do you think the left lost in the recent U.S. election? — Harry Hindu
Except for introducing christification.I think the Romans left conquered cultures intact. — frank
Neither 'neoliberalism' - whatever that actually is, if it is - nor right-wing have anything to do with liberal ideas or ideals or politics.Neo-liberalism is the dominant form of right-wing liberalism after about 1980. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I wish that distinction were made clearly enough in a dictionary and in political parlance for everyone to understand the same meanings.Just don't conflate the "left" with "liberal". — Harry Hindu
Or policies, maybe? Or one particular issue? Or a leader they prefer as head of their government? Or some other aspect of candidate and/or party that is meaningful to that voter?The point being that people that do their research actually vote for candidates, not parties — Harry Hindu
I don't believe you know his motivations, his experience or what research he's done.T Clark votes for party. When you do that you don't bother doing research. — Harry Hindu
That's not what I'm seeing in US politics currently.You don't bother questioning your group when the majority (the more moderate Dems) allow the actions of a few (the extremists (socialists/communists that are trying to erase diversity, not promote it) — Harry Hindu
Or is liberalism attached to capitalism? As for lacking historical knowledge, we are all disqualified, being ignorant of or at least hazy on some periods and geographical areas that make up human history.(With that said, it seems to me that the folks who say that something like capitalism is not attached to liberalism simply lack historical and political knowledge, and are therefore unqualified to really weigh in on this sort of question.) — Leontiskos
I don't want to be combative; I just don't understand what you're trying to say. At least, I have some grasp of a hint at a theory, but I don't understand how it translates to practical action, or who is expected to do what.You pick at what you think you disagree with or where you think there's no alternative as if it invalidates the critique. Do you want a combative discussion or do you want to understand what I'm trying to relay? — Benkei
This is what I don't understand. Where in history is this 'first place' in which power had not yet consolidated? The only such instances I can think of are 'primitive' - that is, tribal - societies that consisted of a small number of closely related people. The minute one of these tribes was conquered by a larger, more aggressive nation, those people found themselves under a consolidated power system the beneficiaries of which were not inclined to redistribute anything.Once power consolidates it can only react to discrete violations but it does not allow redistributing power that enables such violations in the first place. — Benkei
I see this as quite distinctly conservative, rather than liberal. I suppose that's the part I don't understand, because we have such varied definitions and descriptions. Perhaps it's that pernicious misnomer 'neoliberalism' at fault?Individualism resists, for instance, redistributive justice. Once power consolidates it can only react to discrete violations but it does not allow redistributing power that enables such violations in the first place. It does not enforce democratic decision making where it matters most in capitalist society because it is stuck in a formal conception of justice. I mean top-down led companies, the economic system that favours capital over labour and gives little to no choice to the latter. I mean externalising everything and having no tools unless rights are violated. — Benkei
I totally agree. And can't see any way from here to there, let alone an easy one. Two ways have been attempted in my lifetime: revolution and incremental change. I've seen the latter have some gratifying successes (now being shattered spectacularly) and the former achieve results the exact opposite of what was intended.Democritising all socio-economic human activity and decentralising decision making are conceptually the easiest paths forward. What is shared decision making if not a preventative measure to avoid one or a few voices drown out others? What is shared ownership if not a preventative measure to avoid one or a few own most of everything? Sharing is caring! — Benkei
Then Something is mistaken. I have a choice of voting L, ND or G. Though none fulfill all of my requirements, I choose the one that comes closest at any given election cycle and hope their parties can form at least a temporary alliance in the face of regressive threats. I do inform myself and I always vote, even if the odious C candidate is a dead cert in my riding.Something tells me you wouldn't know who to vote for if they didn't have a D next to their name. — Harry Hindu
What does?But my concern is whether liberalism has the conceptual tools to address systemic and structural power before harm is framed as a rights violation. It does not. — Benkei
You saidDid I say anything about prediction? No. — Benkei
Who does this interrogation of whom before what power can consolidate, and how, without prediction, can anyone - everyone? - do this? Attempts have been made, based on warning signs and predictions but the collective responsibility was unresponsive. Liberalism fails because it lacks the vocabulary of fear and loathing.What’s missing is a vocabulary for preventative, collective responsibility; a way to interrogate power before it consolidates, and beyond the frame of discrete violations. — Benkei
The current US Democrats are what you consider far left? In that case, I'm so far left I'm beneath your horizon. No, not in an ism, and not on the basis of any big-name thinker's recommendation; simply through observation of how we humans screw up our lives, our communities and our world.I wouldn't expect any different from an extreme leftist. When you're so far to the left, everyone else is right. — Harry Hindu
Not anymore. They're being relentlessly stripped of their voting rights, and such votes as they have, are discounted more at each election cycle. This erosion of democracy has been going on steadily in half the country for over a century and a half. It was retarded for a couple of decades in the mid-20th, but has accelerated in the 21st and under the current ministration, is in existential crisis.The independent moderates outnumber the Dems and Reps and the numbers are growing. The moderate middle is the group that decides elections. — Harry Hindu
It swing right very fast and lands with a bang, left very slowly and lands with a soft thump. (In my experience, anyway)When one party goes to far to one side the pendulum swings back to the other side with just as much force. — Harry Hindu
We??? Good luck! I really don't relish the idea of being invaded by His Magasty's army of deplorables.If we want to tamper the level of divisiveness and tribalism we see today we really need to abolish political parties. — Harry Hindu
If you're young, I don't suppose you can afford to.I wouldn't give up hope yet. — Harry Hindu
Therefore the support of free enterprise is not necessarily the support of capitalism.Therefore, free enterprise is not capitalistic — Leontiskos
You might. Is it therefore not factual?#2 is the sort of slogan I might find on a bumper sticker. — Leontiskos
I left it out of the postscript. Enterprise can be free without exploitation; enterprise can be free without relying on debt: value for value rather than profit and loss. Capitalism absolutely requires debt and exploitation. Capitalist economies allow freedom for a few by constraining many. Their governments protect the public precisely to the degree to which those governments are liberal.It doesn't say "enterprise," it says "free enterprise" (i.e. a form or aspect of capitalism). Your own definition disagrees with you, and you fudged it by omitting the word "free." — Leontiskos
A poignant illustration of the way in which popular Darwinism has given us something to live down to. — Wayfarer
Where?But the deeper values implicit in liberalism—respect, consent, reciprocity—were originally grounded in religious and philosophical traditions, specifically Christian in nature. — Wayfarer
Nothing metaphysical is required. What do social animals need? How can a society of animals get the maximum portion of what they need with a minimum of suffering? The moral commitment is the same as in Christianity: Do onto others as you would have them do onto you, and communism: To each according to need from each according to ability. Neither can be achieved, or even approached, in the overpopulated, god-ridden, money-driven, propagandized societies of today. All liberals can do is attempt to mitigate the worst outcomes. In some countries they do fairly well; in others, they fail, get knocked on their keesters, get up and try again. And again, and again....That’s not to dismiss the achievements of liberal modernity. But it does raise the question: what moral or metaphysical commitments must underlie a free and humane society, if it is to remain coherent and whole? — Wayfarer
In tandem from 4000BC Sumeria onward? If that's the case, no wonder we don't have a firm definition for the idea we're arguing about!I don't think the answer is found in a dicitionary but a history book. Liberalism and capitalism developed in tandem and share core assumption about the individual, property and greedom — Benkei
The fact that some philosophers declare people unfree for various reasons does not invalidate the good intentions of liberals who attempt to lessen the misery of those who don't know how to or are not allowed to choose what's good for them. That's not about consumption, that's about social justice.To Vera's point, if freedom is a good, and "the people" turn on it for lesser goods, or out of sheer ignorance, then, on this older view, they were never free to begin with. If freedom isn't a superior good, then so much the worse for liberalism. — Count Timothy von Icarus
No, it wasn't disrespect, it was a desire for a clear idea what is being discussed under this wide, blurry heading. If there is no definition other than what American politicians hammered out, then I can't engage.In any case, you can't engage in a discussion --- unless, that is, you are trying to be positively disrespectful --- using appeals to dictionary definitions. — Jamal
No ism creates citizens. Citizens are first human beings: individually quite sensible and reasonably co-operative, collectively gullible and manipulable and always potentially both altruistic and vicious. The very same kind of people who were persuaded to capital, to industrialization, to Islam, to monarchy; by every exploiter and war-monger who ever sent them to kill and enslave one another, to suffer and die in heaps, and lately to upend a civilization that had been working fairly well for most of a century.If liberalism creates citizens who are so easily manipulated, who are so ignorant, then doesn't this directly impugn its claims to empower freedom? For, ignorance can easily be seen as a limit on freedom. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I must be using the wrong dictionary. Oxford has the meaning asnd the essence of liberalism is to justify capitalism with the ideology of equality, individual liberty and property rights.
And not only to justify capitalism, but to justify colonialism, slavery, and class hierarchy. This is described pretty well in Domenico Losurdo's Liberalism: A Counter-History, although he goes too far for my liking --- unlike him (as I recall) I do think there is a lot of good in liberalism. — Jamal
1.willingness to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; openness to new ideas,
- the holding of political views that are socially progressive and promote social welfare.
- the belief that many traditional beliefs are dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change.
2. a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.
It's not failing; it's being beaten down by more aggressive forces. This is because liberalism can thrive only so long in a capitalist society. The essence of capitalism is the haves using up the have-nots and keeping them have-nots as long as they're useful. The only time there is any redistribution of resources, opportunity, wealth and power is a short period following a major breakdown in the capitalist system: recession, depression or war. As the grabbers and users recover, they claw back more and more of everything. They also control the organs of propaganda to stoke dissatisfaction and displace their own wrongdoing onto convenient targets, thus turning gullible people against their neighbours as well as their own self-interest.Liberalism is failing, — Leontiskos
We have already fallen into something much, much worse. What do you propose as a 'proper' alternative?I think it is now important to have proper alternatives so that we don't fall into something worse.
None.I am interested in if there are any good reasons whatsoever. — Bob Ross
This thread is an attempt at exploring, with the community, whether it is just for God to punish such sins eternally or not. — Bob Ross
Are you sure? The subject of this thread is the writing of philosophical essay.I don't think that is a discussion for this thread. — Athena
Yes.Did you know about that? — Agree-to-Disagree
No.Have you learnt anything?
Yes, and it has been talked about. Need more?The comment had been made that there will be less arable land. Surely it's appropriate to talk about what the science behind that says? Or is that approach not in keeping with the spirit of the OP? — frank
Balderdash! There will be more deaths due to cold, heat, wind, water, snow, ice, droughts, hurricanes, famines and wars.One of the consequences of Climate Change is that there will be less deaths due to cold. — Agree-to-Disagree
You are allowed to talk about anything you can back up with evidence. AFAIK, there no positive consequences. The one(s) you referred to so far are bogus.Or are we only allowed to talk about the negative consequences of Climate Change? — Agree-to-Disagree
That'sstill not how it works. Learn the science.As the temperature increases with climate change the forested subarctic region which surrounds the tundral will shift north into the Arctic tundra. The grasslands and temperate forests which are south of the forested subarctic region will expand into where the forested subarctic region is now. It is the new grassland areas which can be farmed. — Agree-to-Disagree
Oh, that's changing all the time. But there will be more deaths from cold, heat, water, wind, ice and snow.I have posted before about how cold kills many more people than heat. — Agree-to-Disagree
Canada is not the British Isles. and 2024 is not 1988.There have been more than 50,000 heat-related deaths and more than 200,000 related to cold in England and Wales since 1988, new official figures show. — Agree-to-Disagree
That's still not how it works.If you want to minimise the number of people that die from temperature related deaths then you should welcome a little warming. — Agree-to-Disagree
We are already seeing many of the effects, which will intensify and accelerate due to feedback loops. Wildfires wipe out vast swathes of forest, which not only diminishes the carbon capturing capability of vegetation, but contributes to airborne particulates and gases. The oceans and great lakes are already growing warmer; in the salt water, this means changed migration patterns of sea-life; in fresh water, lower levels and increased algae bloom. The melting of polar ice will eradicate some species and the melting of permafrost is creating sinkholes that emit even more methane. And ancient bacteria and viruses for which we are unprepared. The glaciers are disappearing, which means so do the rivers they feed. Water shortages follow.what are the likely consequences for the human world and the wider environment, — Moliere
Tentative suggestion: start with the Social Contract. That concept is not hard to defend in an essay, but horrifically hard to defend on the actual ground. (I briefly considered making it my subject, but set it free again as I didn't have a context in which to frame it. I think maybe you do.)If I do write an essay for this, I think, it may be hard to formulate this topic into a clear philosophy argument, — Jack Cummins
I'll do that when I have a little more time.I don't follow you, Vera. I referred to pleasure as a concept, not particular instances or "experiences" (and "accessed via drugs" has nothing to do with Epicurus – check the three links I provided for clarification in the context of my response). — 180 Proof
and the cartoon-laden quora post which he can't argue.AI will solve the purpose of human existence and he lists some things like of pleasure is the goal then we’d just be hooked up to drugs all the time without needing to bother with experiences. That sounds like either ruining the human experience or “revealing” it for what it is, that being just chemical reactions with our storytelling to make it seem like more. — Darkneos