It was meant as a positive echo to a negative order. Down tools and get out of the way for a while.Oh dear. An unfortunate reminder of Trump's Proud Boy order of 'stand back and stand by' — Amity
Not theirs alone, either! Don't look east or southward!I am becoming increasingly concerned with American politics. It sickens me. — Amity
But not for the purpose of explaining thunder and lightning because they didn't know science.The gods we care about were first created 2 or 3 millennia ago. — BC
You mean this sarcastically? — schopenhauer1
Every religion differs in some respects from all the others. And every state religion nevertheless supports the hierarchy. Chastising a king is not the same as advocating for a republic; they just want a new and stronger king, once they've had time to recover and regroup. That happens in most nations from time to time.However, the Bible itself in the context of why/when it was written, contradicts some of that. — schopenhauer1
Parts of it were written then.The Bible was written when Israel and Judah were defeated, and Judah was reconstituted as a small province under the satraps of the Persian Empire. — schopenhauer1
Yes, you supplied some specifics that I hadn't known, and I appreciate it.But you mentioned a purpose, and I gave you some purpose(s) from the many layers. — schopenhauer1
In that instance. Which supplied a nice underpinning for the eventual king-making power of the RCC, and the theocracies of Islam.However, they were along the way creating an identity outside the original context of a kingdom-state. It was also creating from the ashes of destruction a way of uniting a nation without state, or without a king at least. — schopenhauer1
Which "we" is that? I had no part in the creation of any gods. My only sources of information are documents written by men, long dead, about gods they may or may not have had some part in creating. All I know about their gods is what they tell me, and that's far from everything.On the one hand, we created God so we can know everything about God. — BC
That "we" not only excludes myself, but the majority of people. Who has it every way they want are the manipulators of faith and credulity; the manipulated have no such power.Thus we can have it both ways: When it is convenient, we know what God wants, doesn't want, what God likes, what God hates, etc. Or, when it is convenient, God can be an unknowable mystery. — BC
I very much doubt that was their motivation. I allow that as part of the motivation of people who made up stories of origin and causation in the unrecorded eras before writing. But by the time of clay tablets, papyrus and alphabets, civilizations were hierarchical and stratified; there was rulership and obedience, law and punishment.The millennia-long dead authors of god-tales were likely in great earnest. They lived in a pre-scientific world where there was a lot of unexplained, unexplainable events that needed some sort of explanation. — BC
From what other sources can we learn the nature and desires of God?Remember that the Bible was not, after all, written by the Holy Spirit in one go. It's a collection of diverse narratives for various purposes--NOT a unitary whole. — BC
I don't question the value or benefits of the academic application. In fact, that's what I was trying to say: in the educational setting, philosophy becomes systematic and disciplined and that the orderly academic mindset renders it useful.I don't think it unusual for people to wonder as to the benefits of Philosophy as an academic discipline. — Amity
Each disparate opinion is published in a given time and place. It may sway public opinion in that society, or make a deep impression on someone who then becomes a leader. It may and even influence legal and legislative decisions in the near future, and in related cultures. It may influence contemporary thinkers and future ones. That's hit-and-miss; some philosophies sink without a trace; some valid observations are denied or vilified.As to Philosophy serving a 'social function'...what is that exactly? Whose philosophy? — Amity
Could you have faith in a being who does not make direct contact with you, does not manifest in any way you recognize, is described differently by every cult, each of which has has profound and irreconcilable internal contradictions?According to common belief, evil is one of the reasons people abandon faith in God as an omnibenevolent and all good being. — Shawn
Okay. I have no problem with substance, which is just raw material. Everything that has a physical form has substance. Why raise that to some kind spiritual level?High quality steel can be made into a fork, a knife, a plate or even a plow. The steel would be the essence, the substance of the object. — Sir2u
Which is not about substance. Good or bad, a person is made of biomass. But is that what you mean by essence? Is it the person's essence you're discussing or the essence of goodness - which has no physical substance? In that sentence, 'essentially' is used in the sense of 'basically'; at the foundation of his personality - which also has no physical substance. 'Essence' is non-material attribute. I see no reason to stick it on inanimate objects.When we talk about people, "He is essentially a good person", we talk about the things that make him good. — Sir2u
Beethoven took a pretty good stab at it. Vivaldi didn't suck, either.It's easy to see the connection between poetry and song lyrics. But can that be translated to sound, notes and chords? — Amity
I can't see or hear that in any context except with the image of Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin (Are they not the most amazing women??) in that comedy series - not always in the best taste.Stealers Wheel ~ Stuck In The Middle With You — Amity
While I fancied that that understood where some philosophers were coming from, and what they were having a go at, I never figured out whether Philosophy as a whole intended or aspired. As a 'discipline', I think it's purely academic, because it takes a pedagogue's orderly mind to make a system of it; in the wild, it's quite undisciplined. Does it serve a social function? Some branches do; some practitioners do so deliberately and self-consciously, while some, I'm a little afraid to say aloud in this environment, seem to me no more than cloud-gazing and verbal calisthenics.How true is it that: 'the novel can now do for us what philosophy once aspired to'. — Amity
If it were a food flavouring, yes. I suppose you can apply it to a tool, meaning either its character (function, rather than personality) or its substance (what it's made of and how it's made). But how would that be distinct from purpose or nature?Would that not depend on the definition being used for 'essence'? — Sir2u
That is the purpose and utility of the thing. It has no 'essence' and its nature is determined by its design, the material from from which it was made and the skill with which it was crafted.An artefact such as a letter opener has an essence before it exists, for a human being must have conceived it before it came into existence, and this conception is the essence or nature of the thing. — Jedothek
He has no pre-designated purpose or utility. His nature is determined by the material from which he is made, the environment and evolution that produced him.Since there is no God, there is no one to conceive humanity before it exists, thus the human being has no nature before he ... exists. — Jedothek
They, too are products of environment and evolution; they also have no pre-designated purpose or function.If God does not exist, brutes also have no nature before they exist — Jedothek
Within the confines of his physical nature, his needs, his condition, his environment and his capabilities. Both he and the beast are constrained in the same ways.Therefore, he is free to do has he chooses. — Jedothek
So frickin' true! What a species!Someone will always open the basement door. You can count on it. — Nils Loc
I did include a citation about biological clocks. I don't see how that presupposes or requires 'thinking about own previous thought and belief'. Yet another caveat added in order to exclude other species.Do you have a cogent argument for how it becomes the case that any creature could begin thinking about their own previous thought and belief? All timekeeping presupposes that. — creativesoul
From what can you tell that? Stonehenge? Obelisks? Athens' Tower of the Winds? They don't say much, except that humans have been keeping public time since the beginning of civilization. those practices may have been named and described. Before that, humans had to depend on our own sense of when to wake, when to eat, when to move to the summer camp, when to hunt, when to preserve food for the winter. Whether anyone named that or not, we don't know.As best we can tell, time keeping practices were existentially dependent upon naming and descriptive practices. — creativesoul
Now, there is a bald, naked, unsupported statement.Dogs are always in the moment and unreflective. — creativesoul
We were the same with my sister-in-law. She had MS and clung to her faith till the very end. We could see that it was a comfort to her and were careful never to challenge it. Even took her to church a couple of times when she was visiting, even though... Well, we took her shopping and brought her KFC buckets, too: whatever made her life a little brighter.That's only one among many factors, but I understand it really is a deep seated fear for her, and knowing that in particular, I'm not much inclined to challenge her views. — wonderer1
Oh, not directly. My father was a bully, nothing we could do about that. But my mother equipped me with some resistance to the guilt and shame thing. She made fun of it, so my brother and I learned to make fun of it. But I did subsequently witness how it happens to others. Usually through religion, which encases the very young child in a waterproof shell: he's helpless for fifteen years or more. The even more insidious form is smothering 'love' - sustained and unrelenting emotional blackmail.I do know the other one, too: the drip, drip, drip of guilt, of shaming, of turning your best impulses on you as weapons. — Vera Mont
Sorry to hear that. — Amity
the young, male doctor couldn't understand or empathize. "But it's only a dog!" — Amity
The same wish goes to that doctor.
A Dog for Jesus
(Where dogs go when they die)
I wish someone had given Jesus a dog.
As loyal and loving as mine.
To sleep by His manger and gaze in His eyes
And adore Him for being divine.
As our Lord grew to manhood His faithful dog,
Would have followed Him all through the day.
While He preached to the crowds and made the sick well
And knelt in the garden to pray.
It is sad to remember that Christ went away.
To face death alone and apart.
With no tender dog following close behind,
To comfort its Master’s Heart.
And when Jesus rose on that Easter morn,
How happy He would have been,
As His dog kissed His hand and barked it’s delight,
For The One who died for all men.
Well, the Lord has a dog now, I just sent Him mine,
The old pal so dear to me.
And I smile through my tears on this first day alone,
Knowing they’re in eternity.
Day after day, the whole day through,
Wherever my road inclined,
Four feet said, “Wait, I’m coming with you!”
And trotted along behind.
by: Rudyard Kipling
That's just wrong! If you're going to print a poem, print the whole thing - else, desist.However, I find it troubling that it is not even included in the Poetry Foundation website. Only the part concerning the Man. — Amity
That's the gist of it for me, the power trip. If he 'raises his voice from time to time', it's because she's being obtuse and exasperating; if she does, she's strident or hysterical. I know this story well enough.And often asks her not to yell
Rudyard Kipling - The Power of the Dog
There is sorrow enough in the natural way
From men and women to fill our day;
And when we are certain of sorrow in store,
Why do we always arrange for more?
Brothers and Sisters, I bid you beware
Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
Buy a pup and your money will buy
Love unflinching that cannot lie--
Perfect passion and worship fed
By a kick in the ribs or a pat on the head.
Nevertheless it is hardly fair
To risk your heart for a dog to tear.
When the fourteen years which Nature permits
Are closing in asthma, or tumour, or fits,
And the vet's unspoken prescription runs
To lethal chambers or loaded guns,
Then you will find--it's your own affair--
But...you've given your heart for a dog to tear.
When the body that lived at your single will,
With its whimper of welcome, is stilled (how still!);
When the spirit that answered your every mood
Is gone--wherever it goes--for good,
You will discover how much you care,
And will give your heart for the dog to tear.
We've sorrow enough in the natural way,
When it comes to burying Christian clay.
Our loves are not given, but only lent,
At compound interest of cent per cent.
Though it is not always the case, I believe,
That the longer we've kept 'em, the more do we grieve:
For, when debts are payable, right or wrong,
A short-time loan is as bad as a long--
So why in Heaven (before we are there)
Should we give our hearts to a dog to tear?
It is. If you wish to deny that, you can use the excuse of irrationality. Me, I prefer to be befriended, as I choose my friends, for positive qualities and for compatibility of temperament and interest. Friends expect sympathy support and respect from one another; that makes it transactional.Surely a rational reason for friendship turns the friendship into something else - a transactional, conditional relationshiop? — Ludwig V
There is a line, which may look very faint and fine from some perspectives, between the non-rational (that is, emotional) component of interpersonal relations and the irrational (contrary to reason). Emotions and instinct can augment rational decisions; unreason undermines them.Surely, the irrational is two-edged - or perhaps, in itself is neither - it all depends on how irrational and what the irrationality leads to. — Ludwig V
And how did he demonstrate this in his own life?And then there's Hume claim that "reason is, and ought to be, the slave of the passions" and his fact/value distinction. — Ludwig V
There are different types and flavours and degrees of love.What is love and how do we know when we are loved? — Athena
It's not all that hairless:Oh gosh. That is in dire need of argumentative support. I have no reason to believe that that's true, as written. Bald assertion is inadequate. — creativesoul
The brain is an efficient machine in orchestrating temporal information across a wide range of time scales. Remarkably, circadian and interval timing processes are shared phenomena across many species and behaviours. Moreover, timing is a pivotal biological function that supports fundamental cognitive (e.g. memory, attention, decision-making) and physiological (e.g. daily variations of hormones and sleep–wake cycles) processes.
Which relevant facts are those? From what source can you be certain that early hominids did not have a sense of time? If they did not, why did they not miss it for so long, and then suddenly, with the onset of civilization, perceive a need to devise instruments for measuring time?Bald assertion conflicting with known relevant facts is completely unacceptable.
Not really. Humans had been been measuring time for quite a while before those other innovations.Humans charted stars, planned voyages, recorded seasons and all sorts of other things long before inventing clocks. — creativesoul
Horology—the study of the measurement of time—dates back to 1450 BC when the Ancient Egyptians first observed the earth’s natural circadian rhythms. They divided the day into two 12-hour periods and used large obelisks to track the sun’s movement.
Probably not. But maybe that's because they're constrained by their people's work-leisure schedules, rather than the requirements of nature. The vultures in my area are staging for winter migration, holding exercises to make sure all the year's fledglings are flight-capable. The squirrels are very busy, hiding chestnuts and acorns. It's evening; the raccoons are preparing to forage, the salamanders and chipmunks have retired to their hidden nests. A coyote pack somewhere is assembling for the hunt - I hear their calls - but they must wait till moonrise.Planning routines, instead of just being a part of them, is a time keeping practice. Dogs don't do that. — creativesoul
I only read their actions. You read their minds. Uncanny!Dogs do not think about their own expectations as a subject matter in their own right. — creativesoul
But having them doesn't require reflecting on them or isolating them or deciding what their rights may be.Thinking about one's own thought and belief requires first having them, then becoming capable of isolating them as a subject matter in their own right — creativesoul
The dog practices timekeeping in exactly the same way humans did before the invention of clocks. The dog knows when it's time to wake people, when it's mealtime, when it's time for various family members to leave the house and arrive home again, what time the newspaper and mail arrive, when it's time to go for an evening walk and when it's bedtime for children.No, the dog knows when their human is about to arrive but has no clue what time the arrival happens because the dog doesn't practice timekeeping. — creativesoul
These are manufactured distinctions with no meaning that I can attend to.You neglect some very important distinctions. — creativesoul
Ditto.I know other things, and "this" follows from those things. — creativesoul
Our image of a perfectly, or even just excessively, rational person is not a compliment. The complaint would be that they are emotionless, too like a machine, without understanding of those endearing irrationalities that makes us all human. — Ludwig V
Reasoning and assessment are rational thinking, that require some degree of critical thinking. So do the accumulation of wealth, invention, skill acquisition and deceit. And yet rich people, academics, scientists and con artists do not have noticeably shorter lifespans than janitors, navvies and assembly line workers, who are not required to expend very much brainpower for their work - and the majority of whom are unlikely to be chess champions or ingenious puzzle solvers in their spare time. IThe rest is available for learning, memory, language, culture, skill acquisition, storytelling, convictions, wealth accumulation, altruism, invention, emotional complexity, deceit, social bonding, philosophy, ambition, superstition, delusion and madness. As well as reasoning and assessment. — Vera Mont
But all that is not rational thinking. Rational thinking requires critical thinking and we would have an extremely short lifespan if all our awake time was also our critical thinking time. — Athena
Indeed. Yet occasional bouts of intense thought don't shorten one's life, though they sometimes lengthens one's afternoon nap or elicit a strong craving for ice cream. Not all critical thinking is complex problem-solving and learning new tasks. A lot of rational thought is simply choosing what to cook for dinner, whether to walk or take the bus, which air conditioner comes with a better warranty, or what to wear for a date? All decisions are either rational or irrational, but only a few are intellectually challenging.Yes, it's true that some types of thinking require more energy than others, as complex mental tasks, like problem solving or learning new information, activate more brain regions and demand a higher level of neural activity, resulting in increased energy consumption compared to simpler thought processes like daydreaming or routine tasks.
I don't know if I could use the word surprise: for me, change in direction and opinion have been gradual processes, rather than revelations, though I have had the odd little eureka moment when disparate strands of information came together and something made sense.It seems you never surprised yourself with new revelations or ideas impacting you or changing ways of thinking? — Amity
I don't. I have a white elephant of a Herendi set. The story begins in England in 1819, soon after Turner and Minton introduced that pattern, with the hanging of the Cato Street Conspirators. One of his daughters inherits the tea service. It travels with her to the New World, and is passed down from mother do daughter.I didn't know you had a Blue Willow Collection. — Amity
No, they're all single continuous narratives, but the last two are told from three different characters' point of view, set in three different locations. That was a new challenge.Is your novel a series of linked short stories? — Amity
I copy everything - now, after I had a couple of good scoldings - including works in progress on a memory stick, so it doesn't clutter up my regular files (which I have enough trouble finding my around.) Techno-klutz, me, but lucky again in my choice of life-mate.I know that it is a good idea to keep a back-up. However, I rarely do this. And it would 'hurt' in terms of time, energy and space. — Amity
A call to arms from a comerade usually so mild-mannered and generous cannot but be heeded!The pins are out — Amity
I don't think there was such a time. I made up my first poem before I could write and I told stories to my pets, relatives, playmate and little brother since I can remember. No anxiety at all back then; sublime confidence. As an adult, I often fretted over the right tone, cadence, structure, word choice, concision and precision, but not nothing I can identify as 'finding myself'. I guess I never felt lost or obscure or confused - I even have a pretty good idea where my dreams come from. I've often wondered whether I'm just shallow.Was it always like this for you? Or was there a time as a beginner when you felt the strangeness and anxiety of finding yourself in your writing?
When the unconscious or subconscious meets the conscious...if you understand what I mean? — Amity
That's a much more positive perspective. My characters, straight and gay, don't have any doubts of their identity: it wasn't required for the stories, and I wouldn't know how to convey that convincingly.Perhaps you always had a strong sense of identity. In the past, there were no obvious gender issues. And I can see how they aren't a necessary part in a story. — Amity
I did some mild activism for the cause - among others. (Nothing courageous. The Greenpeace guys thought my only possible function was to stuff envelopes, make coffee and keep quiet. I didn't stay long.)However, many strong women fighting for their rights suffered through centuries of well, I won't go on...you know history better than I do. You've lived through it! — Amity
It's in the same collection with Dawn. A grandmother recounting the 200 years witnessed by a family heirloom. I doubt it would interest anyone but Canadians.What 'Blue Willow' story ? The only story I can recall about a woman is 'Dawn'. — Amity
The core message can be important - or frivolous - and I do enjoy the process, including research, organizing the material, constructing the plot, and I love stage-setting. I really enjoyed working on sets in amateur theater, as well. I suppose because it crosses media; I like construction, painting and drama.I don't see how there can be no passion or urge involved when it comes to the effort required to research. Or at least, enjoyment. — Amity
Oh, it's always that. I just meant that I don't get so emotionally invested in a story that I agonize over it. It's more an intellectual exercise for me.If it is not about your interests, hopes and dream worlds, then what is it? — Amity