Comments

  • Corporatism and syndicalism, which one is true?
    Yet, by the way things govern themselves in the US, China, and Europe, it would seem that the emerging groups of capitalism would prefer or instill a socioeconomic theory of corporate syndicalism among the managers of society. — Shawn
    First: things do not govern themselves; they are governed, forced or neglected by human agencies.
    Second: what the hell is corporate syndicalism? I have the definition of syndicalism as trade-union oriented and one of national syndicalism as something similar, organized by central control. I have no idea how the second one works.
    In any case, the basic idea of co-operation and participation cannot be 'top-down' or bottom-up; it can only work on a single level: equality. Capitalism does not promote equality. The two concepts are incompatible.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Media outlets are still available. Bernie Sanders seems to have mastered the art.
    Use of YouTube     — Amity
    Yes, there is a lot of good, progressive stuff on You Tube. Robert Reich, a brilliant economist, The Meidas Touch network, Democracy Now some good series on law and social affairs. And tyhe public broadcast media are still operating.
    These people have been speaking up, explaining, attempting to educate the public - for years. But they failed to mobilize, persuade, convince and consolidate a large enough voting bloc. And they cannot reach the right, the religious, the disaffected and the indifferent, who simply don't tune in - and the right has more, louder and better funded platforms. There, too, it's a contest of reason vs rage-stoking.
    They should not be 'undergound' in hiding. It shows weakness. — Amity
    Sure, but who would endanger his or her family to make themselved look strong. They lost the stage for now: the media are focused on Trump's depredations and that's what the masses are paying attention to. No point in individual grandstanding, anyway; they need to work out a strategy and send out a single, coherent message. Bernie's different: he's always spoken as he does, is familiar to the viewers and too old to have anything to lose.
    “Trump spent the past four years blasting Biden and Democrats, particularly on the economy,” he says.
    He had the leisure to do nothing but gripe and snipe. Indeed, he never stopped campaigning and propagandizing the whole time he was president and did nothing remotely presidential, leaving a shambles to clean up. When Biden was in office, the Dems were getting the job done, in the mistaken belief that the record would speak for them. The system is so badly skewed toward the splashy and shocking and against the sensible and positive, it's hard to be heard on commercial media unless you're screaming. However, the things he's doing now are getting the same attention as his screaming did, so the public has to realize what dangerous criminals the Joker, Mr. Moneybags and the Kennedy Mutant are. That should go a long way toward the necessary change.
    And I'm extremely suspicious of courting what has become 'the middle' - what used to be the right only a couple of decades ago. Even the lamentable Shrub didn't try to tear down the country. Their concerns are: "The Hispanics are taking my job and my inheritance."; "The women are taking my power."; "The progressives are sidelining my Gawd." and "Make the prices and rents go down without regulating capitalists." The proper way to 'address' those concerns would be: "Stop whining, do your chores and share your toys!" but they don't want tough love, only tough hate.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Why is the Criminal so intent on seeking the honour of the Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize? — Amity
    Because he never got over Obama getting one. I think he wants two, by whatever means, just to one-up Obama.

    This is part of the European Crisis. A tipping point.
    It is linked to religion. I posted something earlier.     — Amity
    And here's more of it, coming to a province near me. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csis-antisemitism-violent-extremists-1.7463398?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us

    I am talking about NOW.
    Where is the messaging, where is the attempt to fight back or even to tell it like it is?
    How are they helping?     — Amity
    The messages are being suppressed by the Trump mafia. Facebook and Twitter have gone over to the dark side; the broadcast media are shaking in their boots, and the opposition is increasingly threatened with violence. Soon, they will also be persecuted by the trumpized legal and financial agencies.
    They're underground, gathering resources for the next showdown.* The protests and outrage against the Trufia's more extreme actions have begun; even church groups are turning openly against them.
    *That's a guess, not something I know.
    Not enough momentum yet, but the mid-term elections should be interesting. Trump may try to steal them, or there may be armed confrontations at the polling stations - anything can happen, including a strong Democratic majority.... but more likely a civil war.

    According to some pundits, they can only do this by shifting farther right. To me, it seems that would just slow the decline until a more competent and less insane spokesman takes the extremist lead.
    The least we can do is be aware and vigilant. To defend and protect the vulnerable against the abusers. To speak out when we can. To be together in humanity. To forget small differences and join forces. Educate, inform and encourage to vote. — Amity

    Sounds good. How?
  • From the fascist playbook
    Perhaps this crisis of democracy is really part of a larger crisis, a crisis of "critical awareness." — Pantagruel

    I'm not sure that's a larger or even separate crisis. Lack of critical awareness has ever been with us: witness the crusades, the hundred years' war or the the Spanish Empire. People have always fallen for idiotic scapegoating and hollow promises. They have always allowed megalomaniacs to delude them into giving up autonomy and life. Critical awareness has never been our long suit.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Well, before the 1990's they were behind the Iron Curtain and basically it would be WW3 to mingle with them. The Iron Curtain was also in the minds of the Western alliance. — ssu
    Yes, and as soon as that curtain came down, all the vultures who had been waiting for a chance to exploit those countries came flapping in. They bought up government properties cheap, took over industries, agriculture and resource extraction before appropriate taxes or regulations could be put into effect by the weak, divided and broke new government. And there were plenty of opportunists inside, waiting for the opportunity to sell out their country. They've been trying, clumsily, half-heartedly, to clean up the damage ever since, but couldn't, which is why so many disenchanted people and reactionaries put Victor Orban in power. (idiots!!)
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Hungary had it's uprising in 1956 crushed by the Russian boot, yet Orban is now pro-Russian seems a bit puzzling. Putin is quite the similar Russian as the Soviets were in 1956, only doesn't have the intact Empire that Soviet Union had. — ssu
    Orban's stance is not so puzzling when you realize that he, too, is a populist dictator wannabe (Hungarians have been calling him Victator for years), without the power of a Putin or Trump, so he can only hang onto their coattails. Secondly, if he turned against Putin, he knows Hungary would be next after Ukraine - there's usable bauxite and fruit, but also, geographically, it's a nice buffer between the east and west. Putin wants the big USSR back, with no interference from the west. Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia were never of much interest or value to the West, until the 199'0's, when they were opened up to capitalist predation.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    hink our education system still provides for political literacy in the curriculum but not sure of all the details. I found this but there has to be more: — Amity
    Ours, too, though it's under a lot financial pressure. The US one suffers greatly from state governments that have been dressing right forver. There were a few reforms after the world wars and a few more due to the civil rights movement, but all the old prejudice is still there. Now, they've added science denial to the list of falsehoods they teach children.

    We need to see the faces. We need to hear the words. Of positivity. Not fear or hatred. — Amity

    That's what the Harris campaign attempted, and I fully approved of their approach. They simply underestimated the racism, sexism, xenophobia and paranoia that had seized so much of their population. And they didn't phrase their positive message in slogans of five words or less; they hammered on the one that least concerned men. They should have hit their contribution to wages and unions a lot harder and abortion, not nearly as hard.
    It's difficult for candidates to find just the right tone to reach the most voters. If they try to gather in one demographic, another feels left slighted.

    In Germany, a major issue seems to be that of migrants. Apparently, according to the fascistic far-right, we need less of them and more of their own kind of babies. — Amity
    This is a perennial theme with them: racial and/or cultural purity. It resonates with all those people who were weaned on patriotic songs and stories. That national identity I mentioned earlier is a very, very strong motivator. And for a great many men, young ones in particular, the idea of dependent, subservient women is very, very appealing. It gets worse: we now have a generation of young people who were never socialized at all; they've grown up digital, with 'social' media, sports, violent films and games and pornography. They don't know how to talk to real people face to face; they're more alienated and dissatisfied - hungry, they know not what for - than ever, and totally superfluous in an automated world.

    I've always loved Bernie. He should have been elected president in 2016.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    And, for heaven's sake, listen to public television and radio! Their whole purpose is to educate the public about issues that affect the public. Support them while you still have them.
    I'm pretty sure Trump will shut down PBS and NPR, as soon as he finds out they exist.

    ↪ssu

    We left Hungary in in 1956, November. I was old enough to understand quite a lot of what the adults said in murmurs around the card table. My mother went out to watch the night they pulled Stalin's statue down and smashed it with hammers. We spent some days in the cellar and stood in line for bread and milk on the quiet days. A couple of young boys from our building had rifles; one was killed. Finally, we had to leave because the Russians were winning and my father didn't always speak in murmurs; he had too much of a temper - but was such a good fellow that the policeman down the hall gave him a warning.

    The funny thing is, I was a pretty good little communist then - it sounded right, the way the ideals were presented - and I'm a marginal communist now. The government wasn't. They persuade the well-meaning with lies. Fascists persuade the angry and aggrieved with the promise of power and revenge.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    I cannot overstate the effect of what it means to really have a small discussion about political issues as we have here with members of parliament. They usually are quite sane and far more intelligent and aware than you get from the media. — ssu

    That sounds wonderful. How does that work in practice?

    I don't know that people even know who their MP is. Never mind, their contact number.
    The MPs have difficulties of their own re increasing levels of threat     — Amity
    Part of it is their indifference - some of which comes from past disappointment. Part of it is that representatives are not readily accessible in person. But the incumbents do - in my riding, anyway - send around periodic newsletters with their contact information at the constituency office as well as the one in Ottawa or Toronto. The losing candidates don't have money for that, and they're busy with their regular life; don't know if they'll even run again. However, there is nothing stopping them from maintaining a website, or at least a presence on the party association website. This is not a superb production, though better than the NDP's. I do wish asking for money were not the banner headline, but, well, there is an election coming up. Not a hope in hell for my God & cattle conservative riding... I vote anyway. And I've attended small group meetings with candidates, as well as informal discussions with the local oh-so-righteous Humanist chapter. (The mean well, really.) The Ontario public tv network has a program called The Agenda, where they discuss issues with experts as well as politicians, and they film some of these in college auditoriums where the guest takes questions from the audience.
    Also, if you're upset or concerned about something, you can always write to their office, express your views on social media. I'm sure they would be even happier to hear from constituents who approve of something they did.
    What they're really not good at is listening to suggestions from the voters.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    No. I didn't realise the importance of politics until late in life. I found it boring.
    I only knew that Tories were bad! I didn't have that education that is sorely needed. — Amity

    I think this is absolutely crucial for the whole system of democracy to work. It's not boring and above all, it's crucial that people actually do have a link to the actual political system. I don't think people especially at the communal level are weasels or are trying to make a career out of it. It's many times that these people have more of a duty.     — ssu
    Right on, Brother Bear! The news makes the running of our national and provincial affairs sound boring - in good times. In good times, too, when we have no crises to be alarmed about and no outrage to shake our puny little fists at, we find entertainment elsewhere. Most people can tell you more about the Star Wars franchise, or their football club's performance, than the doings of the people we entrust with making our laws and spending our tax money. As long as government does a good job, we tend to ignore it. We don't notice corruption creeping in, foreign, special interest and financial influence guiding government decisions. We don't notice until we're well on the way to frog soup.
    That's the first thing that happen in real authoritarian regimes: nobody talks politics. It's far too dangerous — ssu
    Joke from the old 'communist' Russia: Two men are standing on the corner, waiting for a streetcar. A Mercedes goes by, shortly followed by a Lada. One man turns to the other, "Tell me, comrade, which is the better car?" The other answers without hesitation, "The Lada, of course." "If you think that," asys the first man, "you don't know cars." "Oh, I know cars. But I don't know you,"
  • European or Global Crisis?
    The Democrats need to get their act together all year round. The time and energy of electioneering activists harnessed not just in door-to-door and phone calls. I don't really know how it works or what really goes on to help people at ground level. Just giving my impressions of out-of-touch leaders and politicians. — Amity
    Actually, the Biden administration [url]http://accomplished quite a lot for the people.* Remember, they came in after a disastrous Trump-administered pandemic and civil unrest and still made so much progress. (It's a longish article, and will probably disappear as soon as one of the trumpets learns of it.)

    But, while Trump was out rabble-rousing and chest-thumping for those three years (he basically never stopped campaigning since 2008.), they just got on with the job, and the big broadcast networks kept it all very quiet. They really do need to speak up, celebrate their successes and stay in touch with the grass roots between elections.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    So, now the Tory message is 'Canada First'. This will appeal to voters. To put Canadians first.
    Cue increased patriotism and nationalism.
    And the questions, I suppose, of who is considered 'Canadian'?
    Will this be a Trumpian MCGA? It sounds very much like it. McGa?     — Amity
    Put Canada first - not Canadians. Yup, MAGA Jr. It means whatever he says it does. Tax cuts for the rich owner class, which in practice means curtailing social services for the poor. Invest in domestic industry, which actually means rapid automation, lower wages and union-busting. Support construction, which usually means high-end condos in residential districts, pushing out the residents and the 'development' of agricultural land and green spaces for the upper middle class. More spending on the military, which means less on health and education. And, of course, the eternal cry of "Drill, baby, drill!"
    Economic self-sufficiency is a good idea. The way capitalists go about it does not benefit the people.

    Education - how people can be manipulated. Education of the importance of words.
    Education about emotions and anger. Educate to enable good questioning.     — Amity
    And when the right wing is in charge, who sets the curriculum? Rampaging Trump wants to squash public schools and replace them with them education-for-profit and religious indoctrination. Given what previous conservative governments have done to education, no doubt a Polievre administration would follow a similar route. So.... where is all this improved electorate through education supposed to come from?
    Not commercial mass media! And the public broadcasters will soon lose their funding, if not their licenses.
    What caught my interest was when the presenter introduced an AfD policy, preferring to have larger families than more immigrants. (01:04 - 01:080).

    This is a recurring theme of the hard-right. And is in line with Trumpian politics.     — Amity
    Sound's familiar. Keep the wimmin barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, for the greater glory of the Fatherland. Or Stalin's slogan to the effect that childbearing is the duty of married women and a laudable public service from unmarried ones. That'll load 'em down with responsibility and fear; keep them out of politics.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    All this right-wing upsurge will certainly make it difficult for Europe to muster international solidarity... or get its act together in any sense.
    I think the point has been passed; we're in for the bumpiest ride in human history.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    But they also have to take a broader view and team up with pro-democratic factions in Asia, Africa and South America. — Vera Mont
    How do you envisage this happening?     — Amity
    With a great deal of perspicacity, tact and healthy by-pass-the-US commerce.
    Who are these factions? — Amity
    The governments of Cape Verde, Seychelles, and South Africa; Taiwan, Japan and South Korea; Costa Rica, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Jamaica, plus, of course Mexico, with whom Canada does a lot of trade already and who should be fairly disgruntled with Trumpism by now. Besides making pacts with established governments, the anti-Trump confederacy should also support democratic opposition in non-democratic counrties, as well as aid to agencies that promote health, justice and education. Oh, and as many micro-loans as possible.
    Democracy itself does not guarantee human rights, fairness or justice. As clearly seen in USA and elsewhere. But, yes, it is better than the alternatives. — Amity
    The one advantage it does have is the periodic user-review: the people are able to remove bad governments by legal, orderly means and opt for something they perceive as better. Even if it's not, they can still turn back next election. Once a dictatorship is entrenched, builds fortresses and removes all access points where the people could influence decisions and arms itself against all opposition.
    What can be done to prevent the swing to an extreme right, once the Tories are in power? — Amity
    Nothing short of organized resistance - which is costly.
    Or what can be done to improve the chances of progressive parties in the election? — Amity
    Tighter organization. Identification of pressure-points - both positive and negative*. Simple direct communication with the voters, addressing their immediate concerns.
    (*The single biggest misstep in the Harris campaign was that ad by Julia Roberts, and the Handmaid one; more generally, the loud harping on reproductive freedom. The Dems totally failed to understand the prevailing misogyny, especially among the non-white, working class and young voters.)
  • European or Global Crisis?
    ↪jorndoe

    So has Vance.... It's easy to say no when your self-interest is not at stake.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    I'm guessing things would have to keep up pace with Trumpistan, though, at least in some respects. — jorndoe
    Not have to, and I wish we could all see that resistance is imperative. But some of the elements have been here for some time already. There is a better than even chance that the next government will be conservative. How close to the extreme right they'll go is still an open question. I admit to not sleeping well these nights.
  • What you can control
    Your Attitude and Perspective — Truth Seeker
    Not really. You may be able to adjust it, given a favourable environment.
    2. Your Actions and Behaviours — Truth Seeker
    To a large extent, yes.
    3. Your Reactions — Truth Seeker
    See 1. It's the same thing.
    4. Your Habits — Truth Seeker
    Circumstances permitting. Not everyone is free to set their own schedule and follow a routine of their own choosing.
    5. Your Values and Principles — Truth Seeker
    You do that once, early in life, partly according to your own preference. Whether you are able to adhere to them for the rest of your life depends on more than your will.
    6. How You Spend Your Time — Truth Seeker
    That should be 'how you spend your free time', which depends on how much of it you have and how tired you are when the obligatory activities are finished.
    7. Your Learning and Growth — Truth Seeker
    Mostly yes, with possible limitations imposed by conditions beyond your control.
    8. Setting Boundaries — Truth Seeker
    Within the tight circle you can reach. Can't affect law enforcement, landlords and employers.
    9. How You Treat Yourself — Truth Seeker
    Except that last one. You may not have sufficient time to rest or adequate health care.
    10. Effort Toward Positive Change — Truth Seeker
    So long as it doesn't get you into trouble with superior fire-power.

    Good advice for middle-class, reasonably well educated, reasonably comfortable people who suffer from self-doubt and self-imposed stress.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    It's the time of our awakening: do we continue supporting Ukraine when raging Trump stops all aid to Ukraine? Do we let Ukraine fall? — ssu
    Raging Trump is also stopping aid to other countries that will soon be up for grabs, including several that will also expand as bases for anti-American - and very probably anti-European - terrorism.
    I genuinely hope that Europe really awakes and does support freedom from tyranny and imperialism. — ssu
    So do I. But they also have to take a broader view and team up with pro-democratic factions in Asia, Africa and South America.
    PS - Earlier, I forgot to mention Panama among his imperialist targets. Right after the national parks are opened to drilling and mining.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Maybe you should all band together and try to produce something resembling an argument — Tzeentch
  • European or Global Crisis?
    ↪Amity

    Peace at the price of sacrificing a Ukraine. Sure: he won't miss Ukrainian independence. Then Poland? Sure, why not? Romania? Slovakia? Who needs them anyway? Hungary might be spared, so long as its government capitulates absolutely, rather than just the present lip-service. By then, Putin may be dead, but who knows what the next emperor has his eye on?
  • European or Global Crisis?
    So you're against peace. — Tzeentch

    Thus you have been harping.
    Death is peaceful.
    What do you suggest? Letting the Ukrainians fight and die until they are defeated totally? Starting World War 3? I presume you are volunteering to be the first to enter the trenches? — Tzeentch
    Are you sure those are the only options? Where is your proof?
  • European or Global Crisis?
    How true is that? Who said it? Is it just a good soundbite used by Bush/Obama? — Amity
    I said it on behalf of my country, to Trump. In semi-jocular response to jorndoe's suggestion that we vote in their elections. Which, as a single state, would only give us 50 seats in Congress - 20-30 of them likely conservative - and two in the Senate. Not much of a bargain in return for our human rights, legal system, foreign policy, health care, oil, bauxite, water and lumber.

    Appeasing Putin is not the end of it. — Amity
    What proof do you have of that?     — Tzeentch
    Historical precedent is fairly persuasive. Not just Hitler: Alexander, Napoleon, Trajan, Victoria, Stalin, etc. Now Putin, spending his nation's resources and people to secure an insane legacy. Imperialists don't stop wanting more. For that matter, do you have any reason to think that Trump, who wanted Greenland, and now also wants Canada and Palestine, will stop if everybody gives in to him?
  • European or Global Crisis?
    We do not negotiate with terrorists.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    There are always possibilities, until the clamp down of prison, torture and death for those who protest.
    Being criminalised for protest happens even in a so-called democracy like the UK.     — Amity
    Protests in the US can grow quite heated and Americans, unlike most civilian populations, are heavily armed. Violent clashes are inevitable; the regime has not yet had time (if they're even competent to do it) to organize an effective enforcement agency. Civil war may yet be averted, but if they get frightened enough, the Trumpites will surely call for martial law. Then it will depend on which side the federal, state and municipal armed forces take. (My guess is, half and half, which ensures a long and costly civil war, like the last one.)

    Will that be enough to galvanize the still-sensible nations? I hope so.... I'm still feeding all those things with feathers outside my window.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    The issue of immigrants. People ignorant of their value e.g. in the NHS, tourism, agriculture, etc..
    Not to mention they fill the gap in decreasing populations in different European countries.     — Amity
    All those benefits are beside the point. European countries have a long tradition of national identity, national pride, patriotism; long histories of war for domination of other nations or liberation from other nations. Two thousand years of patriotic fervour, stoked by every monarch, prelate and premier who needed to raise and army doesn't go very far underground in one or two generations: the liberal veneer of prosperous times shatters at the first rousing "make us great again" speech in anxious times.

    A scattering of immigrants who look, speak, cook, worship and dress differently is seen as a colourful and interesting novelty. Such immigrants assimilate quickly - certainly by the second generation - because, what choice do they have? A large influx of any one group of strangers can form its own distinct community, build churches, schools, cultural centers. It can elect representatives who become instruments of change in the government. That is a threat to the national identity in general and the individual native's self-image in particular. If those strangers are a different race and reproduce more than the average native (in the first couple of generations; once they're achieved economic parity, their family profile conforms to the norm.) and couple across racial divides (as young people will!) they're seen as a threat to the very ethnicity of the native population. Nationalists fear that their own descendants will bear no resemblance to themselves. These are compelling fears!
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Do we need this crisis to get real? Or is it now about going to war?
    How civilised are we? Will the people even have a say in the matter?     — Amity

    The crisis is real and global. A number of factors account for the change in people's attitudes; but the salient point is that when they feel confident and optimistic, populations lean leftward; when they feel insecure and anxious, they lean right. Of course the self-declared strong father-figure doesn't protect them; he invariably makes their life harder and more perilous - but they somehow never twig to the pattern.
    Under perceived threats from migrants, economic recessions, pandemic measures, loss of religious privilege, automation and international terrorism, people are open to offers of simple solutions. The far right always has simple solutions: blame a powerless minority and punish it. The left always has a more complicated plan it can't explain in terms that fit on a tractor-hat. More importantly, the left never promises its supporters special privileges.

    The shift has already taken place, whatever the next election in Germany, Sweden or Canada throws up on top. Liberal parties have been pulled farther and farther rightward, leaving labour either out of touch or taking up what used to the center. The only thing that will reverse this trend is a wide enough popular dissatisfaction.
    There is hope in that. The Trump regime is so drastic and crude in its actions, protests have already begun. People are finally noticing that he and his gang mean to carry out all the threats they made over the last several years. This extreme example might - just barely might - wake up other nations to the peril they're courting. His childishly spiteful trade and defence policies might - just possibly - spur greater co-operation among the countries where democracy is still alive. The extreme insanity of Trumpism just maybe possibly might perhaps trigger a global reaction against all similar agendas before it's too late.

    As to Putin, nothing can be done about him short of assassination, and that will have to come from inside his government.
  • Trump STOLE the election??
    I've only just noticed this. Wonder why nobody else has.
    Well-hell, they've been cheating and stealing elections for decades, with gerrymandering, registration restrictions, voter suppression tactics, hiding and moving the polling stations, intimidation when the 'wrong' people found them anyway, counting and reporting practices... this time, under the trumpite incentives, they went all out. But an even bigger factor was the propaganda machine.
    Lotta milk spilt; whole lotta cryin', no recourse.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    Won't lie, haven't read the entire thread, but has anyone actually agreed on a definition of fascism? Because without that, debating whether the USA is heading in that direction seems pointless — ZisKnow
    Nobody has agreed on a hard-and-fast definition, not even Hitler and Mussolini.
    What we do know about its various sub-species: how they manifest in a nation's life, the tactics they employ and the figurehead they set up as all-powerful leader.
    If you wish to call what's happening in the US by some other name, I'm sure that would be fine, so long as those conditions are met.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    Trump is a right wing populist, as far as I'm concerned. He's not a fascist in the same sense that Mussolini was. — Arcane Sandwich
    The only ism Trump adheres to is opportunism. He believes in nothing except his own enrichment and aggrandizement. He's a grifter with a huge ego and unlimited spite.
    Yet there is a real danger (to my mind, at least) with some of the policies that his administration wishes to carry out. — Arcane Sandwich
    Wrecking the economy and shredding the constitution is a real danger?
    Even if I were to grant, for the sake of argument, that his administration "means well" — Arcane Sandwich
    Of-bloody-course it doesn't mean well! This is the end-times feeding frenzy.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    My point was precisely thus: just because someone was actively involved in the development of X, that doesn't entail that the person in question can't be wrong about X. — Arcane Sandwich
    My contention is that Stalin was not involved in the development of socialism: he may have made speeches about it (which added nothing to existing social theory), but all his official acts were aimed at making a stronger, better armed federation than the US.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    Just as Stalin, the guy who helped develop socialism, — Arcane Sandwich

    The which of the what now????
    Most definitions of socialism are concerned with the economy alone: who owns the land and factories. Yet, the way Americans often talk, you'd think public schools and old age pensions, state health insurance and government regulation of industry are all socialist - if not communist measures.
    In the purest sense, socialism means insuring the welfare of polity is the paramount task of government. A functional socialist arrangement isn't developed by despots. It cannot beimposed on a population. It's an inevitable process of a relatively honest functional democracy during peacetime.
    The majority wants material security, social stability, control over their individual lives and a [perceived] fair share of the common wealth. They vote for policies that promote the general welfare. This has the side-effect of a thriving communications and arts scene, which in turn leads to a trend toward tolerance. If the population was already diverse, it also leads to measures that reverse entrenched injustices.

    Industrialization and collectivization are not socialist ideals; they were considered necessary to end the backward feudalism prevailing in Russia before the revolution and catch up with the 20th century. There was also the looming threat of the American atomic bomb in the hands of a commie-hunting administration. Certainly the way these policies were carried out was far from democratic.
    His regime instituted some women's rights, free universal education (the indoctrination of the young), nation-wide vaccination programs and universal healthcare (of a sort) Food rationing and vast construction programs were a response to war damage.
    Overall, however, the 'socialism' of that time was a police state, wherein the people had no voice or choice.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    The Donald J. Trump version
    “Will there be some pain? Yes, maybe (and maybe not),” Trump wrote Sunday morning on social media. “But we will make America great again, and it will all be worth the price that must be paid.”
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    ↪NOS4A2

    Except they are not the same doctrine. They have one main feature in common: the will of the people is what I say it is. And, of course, they're just similar in effect: suppressing individual freedom and wasting the nation's resources on weaponry.
    It's true, neither Mussolini nor Hitler peddled pictures of themselves on shoes or fake watches. But they sure hopped in bed fast enough with powerful bankers and industrialists.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    Yeah, I was specifically looking for quotes about fascism, by fascists, not a general phrase used by a multitude of politicians across many ideologies. — NOS4A2
    To what end?
    Fascism is therefore opposed to that form of democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number; but it is the purest form of democracy if the nation be considered as it should be from the point of view of quality rather than quantity, as an idea, the mightiest because the most ethical, the most coherent, the truest, expressing itself in a people as the conscience and will of the few, if not, indeed, of one,
    and ending to express itself in the conscience and the will of the mass, of the whole group ethnically molded by natural and historical conditions into a nation, advancing,
    as one conscience and one will, along the self same line of development and spiritual
    formation. Not a race, nor a geographically defined region, but a people,
    historically perpetuating itself; a multitude unified by an idea and imbued with
    the will to live, the will to power, self-consciousness, personality.
    Mussolini's 'spiritual' version of L'Etat, c'est moi.

    Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."[28] Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow.[29] According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[30] - wiki

    The National Government will therefore regard it as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our state. Standing above estates [groups that make up society’s social hierarchy] and classes, it will bring back to our people the consciousness of its racial and political unity and the obligations arising therefrom. It wishes to base the education of German youth on respect for our great past and pride in our old traditions. . . . Germany must not and will not sink into Communist anarchy.
    Hitler's version of making Germany great again.


    How the tools actually behave in carrying out the national will doesn't look all that spiritual. But then, hardly any product matches its advertised virtues; fascism, like communism or capitalism or christianity manifests differently from its written theory.
    not that Trump would understand any of this.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    This is not 1930's Europe. Many aspects and aims of those regimes do not apply to Project 2025; some others are a perfect fit. Don't obsess over the ideological label: focus on the agenda.
    (Also, note the IQ differential between those and this.)
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    . All I'm saying is that if Lenin and Stalin can be called fascists, then, by parity of reasoning, Mussolini and Hitler can be called communists. — Arcane Sandwich
    No, they cannot. Lenin may have started out as a communist, but went astray; Stalin had no ideology, any more than Trump does: he was out for personal power. Mussolini may have started out as a socialist, but went over to the dark side; Hitler's ideology was always fascist.
    This is the danger of labels: they don't stay stuck.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    So Lenin is a fascist now? Is that it? — Arcane Sandwich

    He wasn't much of a communist or even socialist. And Stalin was a straight-up dictator, once he'd established state control of everything, himself as the state and woe to anyone who disagrees with his policies. Just like any other dictator. Whether the popular movement starts with peasants and labourers or disaffected white Christians or angry Muslims, the endgame is the same: one megalomaniac shouts at everybody and his tools carry out the pogroms.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    All I can say is that I hope that the different radicalized right wing groups that have formed in the USA as of late don't keep proliferating. — Arcane Sandwich
    They don't need to. They've already put the cabal in charge of all the levers of power. Now, they just sit back, watch the bloodbaths and wait to be disappointed that none of the destruction they've unleashed improves their lot one jot or tittle.
    I say "verbally" because I believe that they shouldn't be physically confronted unless it's absolutely necessary to do so -for example, if they attempt to seize power by taking over the White House. — Arcane Sandwich
    They did that four years ago, were confronted, chastised and pardoned; now they're plotting revenge for their chastisement. The situation is way far past dialogue.

    Do we have good reason to assume that law enforcement isn't already a large part of this group? — Tom Storm
    We know that some law enforcement agents are, but we don't yet know what percent. Same with the military. No until the actual armed confrontation will we know the relative strengths.

    Do you think the police and military would oppose Trump should he decide to suspend the constitution and remain in power as a totalitarian ruler? — Tom Storm
    Should he live that long (which I consider highly doubtful), by then one of two situations will prevail:
    - either all the mechanisms will be in place to ensure his ascent to the throne and the divine right of his designated line of succession (not necessarily his own progeny)
    - or the civil war be approaching its climax.
    (Unless the next series of pandemics will have taken out half the population.)
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    Fascist leaders understand that such top-down efforts to disarticulated a discontent and radicalized mass goes against their own plans for seizing power, hence they need to double down on their vitriolic rhetoric. — Arcane Sandwich
    That comes fairly late in the game. First, and for a longish time, government must be rendered unable to to meet the demands. That is, some faction or factions opposed to the public weal must have influence in or on the government long before the figurehead emerges. This influence is usually economic. While financial interests don't intend to bring about any particular ism, their cumulative activities in industry, media and politics set the stage for populist leaders.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    The fascist appeals to the irrational sentiments of his followers. — Arcane Sandwich
    What I was trying to get across is that it's not 'irrational sentiments'. People have real problems that the government has failed to address - and in many cases, even to acknowledge. They feel unvalued and ignored. If they're not significant enough numbers to make a difference in elections, politicians do tend to ignore them. Business interests, landowners, unscrupulous preachers manipulate and exploit them with impunity: the government doesn't protect them. They grow resentful and mistrustful. They're not interested in enlightenment; they want something in particular: prayer in their schools, an all-white neighbourhood, free range for their cattle on public lands, better jobs and housing, health insurance, a ban on abortion, no limit on the arsenal they can own, no competition from immigrants - something. Each of the groups wants something different. They don't know why they can't have it, so they're generally angry with everyone in a position of authority.
    Each of these inconsequential groups is powerless to get what it wants.
    But when a local politician who presents as anti-authority taps into the discontent of two or more groups, he can become czar of his region - since, once he's elected, he does control all the agencies of authority.
    And when a federal organization, fronted by a self-proclaimed champion of all the aggrieved factions, organizes the various groups into a coalition, there remains only to direct their anger at an available target and keep beating on the war-drums. They'll bring their own pitchforks.

    Of course, if there is a real national problem - failing economy, pressure from foreign powers, large influx of incompatible immigrants, severe weather events, a military defeat - the entire population is insecure and uncomfortable; the very underpinnings of the social structure come into question and the nation can be mobilized very quickly behind a promise of solutions.
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