The answer to my hypothetical question remains optional btw.

Would agree with the assessment of the show hosts as someone potentially delusional if not misguided.

Feel free to put me in the same bracket as him if you like your judgement means very little to me and I in fact empathise with your scepticism.

The idea of being ridiculed for expressing my views on the matter might have crossed my mind once or twice. Do I take it personally or take offence by it ? Not at all.

If my mind or psyche has overplayed the significance of such events is something that I have considered also and I could easily dismiss it there and then.

Let me ask you a question to the sceptical aspect of your reasoning which I assume you do not preclude the existence of a diety or a higher power…

As a purely hypothetical scenario let’s say you decided to purchase a lottery ticket and said to yourself, your conscience whatever …if you do exist Mr God…let all these numbers that I’ve picked come up on the next draw…would you believe then or would you simply ascribe it to some freaky mathematical probability?

The assumption that theists are irrational is a common misconception and might even be true in a fair few cases, similar to the manner of people who believe in horoscopes or other superstitions.

My belief btw, has nothing to do with holy books, I wouldn’t be convinced anyway but instead it stems from personal events or circumstances.

Events btw which I could not dismiss as purely happening by accident alone. The freaky and somewhat surprising nature of such scenarios which have actually occurred in my life affirms in me the belief in something extraordinary for the things that happened and actually continue to happen are nothing short of that.

They’re now part of my everyday life if you like and can sometimes be way to numerous for me to recall each one.

Perhaps I am privileged in that respect.

As for me embracing atheism I do not see the point after all I’m not devout or religious believer im just a some one who can recognise it and live my life as I would otherwise, still striving to be a good person not to please God but to do the right thing with good conscience. As such to me the existence of God is no longer a big deal.

Thank you for responding.

I think there are individuals out there who have been in the depths of despair, a bit of motivational quotes here and there and the think positive thinking and they’re back to their normal self-esteem…some however forget their despair and turn into arrogant fools once more only for the cycle to repeat.

They say pride comes before the fall and how right it is. I’ve seen UFC fighters who thought they were all that after going undefeated for a time only for it to come crashing down to earth and depression, drug abuse and other such unhealthy things start to occur.

You might be on top of the world one second but there is no reason why you should devalue your fellow man either through various insults or degrade them in other ways.

For all that glory, fame and fortune can be snatched from you in a split second.

The other reason despite my experiences I still value doubt, rational and critical thinking so posing it here is better than a religious forum.

For me the issue that I have is with holy scripture especially ones that say only if you believe will you get eternal life regardless if you’re a good person.

So you can be an absolute helmet but as long as you believe you can still attain that.

Now that’s got to be something wrong there.

The other thing I got out of this is that I was able to reflect on the nature of consciousness and through the discussion some things became clearer in my mind.

That is all. I think the diety would kinda be proud of me for figuring it out myself instead of being handed out answers like a toddler.

In any case even if my conclusions are wrong I arrive at them myself instead of relying on dogma which could be as wrong or as right.

I just needed some clarity.

Thank you

Whilst I maintain the position that consciousness is eternal and through human beings temporary for the duration of each beings lifespan able to fully experience life at a biological level of needs wants, fears hopes passions bodily and otherwise without denying them through false Buddhist ideology.

God here (the eternal consciousness or existence if the G word is too hard to swallow for you at this point) is the persistent consciousness not one that ceases as is the case for ours.

In our death this God or eternal consciousness that persists eliminates the need for brain/biology to reproduce that divine spark (consciousness).

Feel like I’m channeling my inner Alan Watts above. I remember becoming acquainted with him over 10 years ago through various channels but mostly YouTube.

Must revisit.

The point I would like to make though is that consciousness is not as special as people would make it out to be. Although neuroscience is having a tough time explaining how it arises.

A cessation of such a thing (whatever consciousness may turn out to be) would be like a light being switched off. The absence of it is easily noted the same for a human consciousness.

Yet the assignment of thought, idea other cognitive or performative acts to physical entities in this case biological ones such as us merely perpetuates the illusion that we are seperate beings or even separate consciousness!

That would be to blatant :rofl:

I have no idea …perhaps it’s an automatic process post death and no god required. (Contradicting my earlier assertion here)

Or if we equate eternal consciousness with G then the above applies just as well. The cessation of awareness on a personal level does not rule out this universal awareness (g if you like)

Again talking about awareness and consciousness as if it is a disembodied thing helps to grasp the continuation of existence perhaps stripped of the self.

I wish to tackle your question properly I think I rushed my last response a tad.

Again all my thoughts below are of a speculative nature as neither do I claim to know the mind of G nor the nature of eternity.

Firstly you don’t know that you’ve died, your self-awareness has been switched off. Thoughts, cognition post death occurs only in the minds of other living entities. Consciousness then persists outside of your mind in other minds does it not ?

We do not know enough about the nature of sleep or death itself as to what happens to consciousness. We do know that it stops and is undetectable by other beings or ECG.

As a human being your awareness is not unique to you. Your memories and experiences maybe.

Others have eyes which perceive the tree in the same way. What separates and makes you unique from the next person is that perhaps an apple landed on their head. You were the witness and the other guy experienced some kinda surprise. This is where different beings develop different memories etc yet awareness is universal to all beings.

The switching off of such awareness is no special thing at all in fact it happens more frequently than people are willing to admit. We all experience moments of voids in our consciousness, auto-pilot or the more familiar example of sleep.

the point is this, consciousness appears to be eternal with the human subject being merely a manifestation of it.

Now assume a telepathic link between to human beings self-identity dissolves from a purely mental point of view as such linked beings would be unable to distinguish who thought the thought.

In the same way our personal identity disappears with death our consciousness could persist.

Of course this is highly, highly unprovable if not wildly speculative.

Yet the power of creation and to think a thought is something we cannot consciously or deliberately choose. That choice is simply the illusion of free will

For the simple fact that once you die your consciousness goes with it. Akin to what happens when you go to sleep. Similarly the invocation of God helps in the same sense of what happens when you wake up from sleep. You regain your awareness and consciousness.

The motives of both the atheist and theist to spouse their different world views remain alien to me. What concern is it to either if one believes or not ?

You kinda get lunatics on both sides of the fence.

It’s kind of amusing to me to see such misguided passions with an almost religious zeal be it atheist or not that I’m tempted to dismiss it as some sort of psychological deficiency or just lack of emotional intelligence to be engaged in such fruitless discussion.

Sure the debate has many different arguments for and against its existence but apart from an intellectual tussle of wits (and dimwits) is it more to the pandering of an ego that wants to be right or just the typical intellectual masturbation that you so often find in people who have some sort point to prove and score points?

Firstly whatever I may have experienced were for me alone. I do not see the reason for such events to be some sort of catalyst to me fulfilling some sort of prophecy or such as a religious leader, Dalai Llama etc. Plus there’s plenty of delusional nutcases who will take on the task spiritual experience or not.

I have no ambitions to start a cult anytime soon…

Perhaps when I look at Hubble or nature you could say I’m looking at it differently when I’m seeing the creators handy work where someone else sees awe-inspiring natural phenomena…

In any case the appreciation for it remains the same god or no god.

But anyway, I’ve got an appointment with a few green men who wish to further probe my clever ass.

This kind of witnessing has almost zero value as evidence of god. — universeness

Please do not construe this as any sort of evidence for God’s existence as some kinds of proof. I have very little interest in preaching nor am I inclined to convert anyone. I’d probably insult your intelligence if I tried.

I was merely trying to answer your question as to whether I can look at nature with the awe and wonder without invoking god which I believe I did.

I find the dialogue between a theist and atheist has little middle ground. Less so than between an agnostic in any case.

And oh yes I’ve had more experiences since as a way of reminding me

I hope I have not implied in my previous post that I am somehow special by virtue of having a shall we say divine experience…there’s probably many others too. After all being humble is a defining Christian trait.

Are you not attracted to the complete and total ownership of your own wonder and awe? Why assign any credit for such to a god? — universeness

I have not always been a theist in fact I was a god bashing atheist myself … ah those were the days. But again I was a youngster then so my conversion was a slow and gradual one with each experience leading me to question some firmly held assumptions of my atheistic views.

As these relate to personal life events I will leave them out but even my rational mind back then could not just dismiss them as mere coincidence.

It kinda was staring me in the face so to speak.

However despite being faced with overwhelming awe, the kind of awe that would lead one to ascribe it to providence rather than a mere beautiful sunset I still retained my rationality to an extent as well as my scepticism but in the face of such experience they were kinda moot.

I think I cried when I had my first religious/spiritual experience as an atheist that’s how strong and magnificent it was to my non-believing eyes.

I wasn’t no born again Christian type either just same old me whose atheism was about to be rocked to its very foundations.

As the moment itself passed and faded into memory it would be only to easy to dismiss it as some sort of emotional anomaly.

Just as any other person I’m able to view nature and it’s wonders from a secular viewpoint and experience the same awe and wonder that they do without bringing god into it.

But by virtue of my religious experience at the time I remain grateful for that very experience which I guess changed my life forever. It has not elevated nor reduced my appreciation of nature and the diversity of it all but merely expanded my mindset to the possibility of something greater than I.

Are you not attracted to the complete and total ownership of your own wonder and awe? Why assign any credit for such to a god? Do you not diminish such, by placing it in the gift of a deity, rather than own it, as a manifestation of your own unique consciousness? — universeness

Interesting.

Before I give you my account of this let me give you some authentic credible and respected theists in their fields.

And what better field is there than pure mathematics where we are dealing with highly abstract concepts.

Let’s begin with Gödel, wildly regarded as the greatest logician since Aristotle. Here’s an excerpt from wiki:

Gödel believed that God[38] was personal, and called his philosophy "rationalistic, idealistic, optimistic, and theological".[39]

Gödel believed in an afterlife, saying, "Of course this supposes that there are many relationships which today's science and received wisdom haven't any inkling of. But I am convinced of this [the afterlife], independently of any theology." It is "possible today to perceive, by pure reasoning" that it "is entirely consistent with known facts." "If the world is rationally constructed and has meaning, then there must be such a thing [as an afterlife].

It gets even more peculiar with Ramanujan where wiki has the following. I think I’ve read somewhere that Ramanujan said his thereoms were divinely inspired or came from God.

Later he had visions of scrolls of complex mathematical content unfolding before his eyes.[105] He often said, "An equation for me has no meaning unless it expresses a thought of God."[106]

Then there’s Pascal another ardent Christian who carried a quote from the bible woven into his trousers. We also have Liebniz another Great mathematician who invented calculus independently of Newton who was also a god believer unless I’m mistaken.

However I must state that I’m not a fan of militant atheism or theism when it comes to god. Although I’d like to add that the work and efforts of the above mentioned individuals far surpass those of any evangelical atheist such as Dawkins et al

Will expand on my own views to your quote later.

I think many of the more ardent theists would not accept you as a theist. I assume you don't care about that — universeness

Absolutely not, I hope that my faith retains some features of theism but shaped by my own experience rather than directly influenced by scripture whose reliability is questionable at the very least.

If I was a theist in the traditional sense then I’d be a Quaker.

And as I do question scripture then the question of god being becoming man to be crucified for our sins is to me no more beneficial to my belief system then the Easter bunny is to a Christian.

Myths are useful albeit lacking credulity and if you get a holiday out of it all the merrier.

So does this divine hiddenness of god not annoy you? If it has some of the answers you seek then why does it remain so hidden from you, even though you seem to try so hard to maintain your faith in it, as a real existent? — universeness

My view on this is that of a magic trick, after the mystery is revealed you start to lose your innate wonder as it has been explained to you, the mechanism the sleight of hand and thus the mystery vanishes.

Part of me wants life to maintain its airy mystery and part of me wants it revealed …how it works they whys etc.

I do not see the divine hiddenness in a negative light from that point of view.

Despite being a theist I still view life with scientific realism rather than wishful magical thinking. Some of the laws of the universe we can understand and others we are trying to understand as they elude or defy rational expectations or explanations especially in the current realm of quantum mechanics.

Some theists can easily explain certain unexplainable phenomena by stating God did it, but that is not helpful to a scientific mind who wants to delve deeper and understand the mechanics behind it (reveal the magic trick if you like to use an analogy)

So why do I need God? Well I don’t …I’ve just come to my own personal conclusion that there is a higher power in the universe. The extent of his involvement in his creation is just another area of speculation or mystery if you like.

Do I believe in him simply because I wish to live forever ? That would be awfully needy of me.

You compel me to ask you 'why' you 'need' a god that you seem reluctant to clearly define. — universeness

It’s not for lack of wanting to define God, it’s for my inability to articulate them with factual accuracy rather than anything. Sure I can throw around terms like omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience etc. but where does that get me? In some circles these are a given in others they’re debatable…do they reflect Gods true nature ? Maybe, maybe not. Do they detract from him ? Again, maybe or maybe not if you’re looking for flaws or wish to put him in a pedestal.

Perhaps in me wanting to define God I’m missing a point in the fact that I would at the very least anthropomorphise him with various human attributes such as morality to name a few. He’s all good and all loving etc but again I fall into the same trap that philosophers/theologians/atheists have encountered before me such as whence Evil?

The manner of my eventual demise be it peacefully or otherwise is of little relevance at this point. Of course I’d prefer the former rather than a long drawn out affair.

As a theist do I not inherit a responsibility to speculate or muse on Gods attributes? To myself sure I can muse on his attributes all day if I so wish but whether that has any correlation to his actual attributes is a different matter.

As an inquisitive human being my questions are perhaps unanswerable. I mean I have a hard time grasping eternity or eternal existence so an intelligence in orders of magnitude superior to mine would really have to simplify certain concepts for my human mind to understand. Think of the lay person’s understanding of Einstein and you have an idea what I’m talking about.

To deny my human limitations would serve me badly in my search for a better understanding of my own existence limited though it may be.

Do you believe your god is omnipotent? — universeness

Very good question and most theists would probably say yes to that. For me the definition of omnipotence is a double edged sword which can easily lead to classical paradoxes such as Can He make a big enough stone that he can’t lift etc. discussing gods attributes can be a good pastime but for me placing a limit on the magnitude of his power would not only be misleading but most probably inaccurate.

I will leave the nature of God to theologians as far as the issue can be addressed.

For me the simple answer is that I will not fully know despite how clever i might think I am or how imaginatively I wish to subscribe superpowers to it.

My concern is not simply the extension of my human lifespan but eternal life/existence whatever shape or form that might be.

Why do you fear oblivion after you die? — universeness

What really gets me as I previously stated is simply the recognition of everlasting existence or even that of a creator who is eternal contrasted to myself a mortal with a short time span in the scheme of things.

I do not fear death it’s more of wanting more rather than the fear of perishing which to me is both justifiable and understandable.

I take all religious text/scripture with a pinch of salt. As a man with a well formed conscience I’d like to think, I always try to do what is right and as a human being I can err, but only in retrospect as I did what I felt was the correct course of action at the time insofar as I was able to determine it.

Had my actions caused harm unintentionally or by the fact that I was not able to anticipate such harm then my conscience remains clean.

Haha there is no discontent here at all. It is of course a big if whether eternal life can be granted to mortals (like me and you). I happily accept both scenarios my mortality in this case and the potential for everlasting life equally. I’m not a fool nor can easily be fooled by scripture as my discerning mind retains a healthy dose of scepticism in such matters

No such emotion, just mere curiosity as to its motives. He/she does kinda work in mysterious ways. Or maybe it knows me and my big mouth so well that these revelations remain scarce for now.

Like dealing with a disgruntled wife I’m getting the silent treatment on this very question. Perhaps I shall have to appease with flowers and cake.

Did it now ? If you are gonna insist on being a muppet at least be a cheerful one. See my previous comment.

In philiosophical spirituality, such as neoplatonism, it is more a matter of realising that your real nature is not separate from the same intelligence that animates the Universe itself. A — Wayfarer

This very closely aligns to my idea of eternal life/immortality although I’d go further to say that it can only be granted by the divine or diety or God to its subject via some sort of life force or other mechanism. Perhaps even a sort of unity with the source of creation itself.

But without a doubt our eternal nature cannot be recognised through cognition it only remains a hope that it will be so. It could even be a false hope too for at the end we all just return to dust and that is the end of that.

What leads me to speculate that this may not be the case is simply the gift of life in its current temporary form allowing one to recognise such concepts as infinity or eternity. For existence itself has always been (Liebniz, Russell brute fact etc).

I state existence has always been and did not have a starting point unlike the universe as to not conflate the two.

But back to my initial idea that of a consciousness arising within the universe capable of contemplating such ideas of eternity, infinity or even eternal life.

Without wanting to point to an intelligence behind it for at this point it could not be ruled out there seems to me to be some sort of progression within the universe at least from the creation of nuclear reactions powering stars to the eventual appearance of life up to the current life form, us, Man which seems to be the peak of creation.

This notion that we arose through blind luck or chance is as equally valid as the idea that there’s perhaps a design behind it.

Not to perhaps recognise its creator but just through sheer luck to exist and reflect on existence

It’s a thought that i myself occasionally ponder. I mean who doesn’t want to live forever? Apparently some don’t and I hold that against no one.

To be given the privilege of recognising eternity even if not being able to attain eternal existence can be a depressing thought though you could develop a stoic attitude and be content with that fact (as Ciceron above asserted)

As we are products or by-products of this amazing eternal universe/existence I have a niggling suspicion that eternal life might be a real thing in some form or other.

There is neither implied nor intended whine. Perhaps the tone of the text has been misinterpreted from yourself ?

In any case. My point is this and actually relates to the limited time span of human existence which some begrudgingly accept whilst others embrace.

The point I’m trying to make is frankly quite irrelevant at this point just wanted a general feel of the normal person on existence being brief in the face of eternity…

In a way it is. The brevity of a miserable or joyful existence has its merits.

If you’re unhappy or miserable you want it to be over.

The Christian promise to its believers for eternal life via redemption or being a good human being has its merits in a way but it does kinda exclude atheists doesn’t it

So let’s think secular instead if you like.

If eternal life was offered not by God but by the universe (let’s say you stumbled upon some sort of secret) would you refuse ?

I find it odd if not bizarre that every conceivable human emotion, memory all but disappear entailing that your life really meant nothing despite its ups and downs, moments of joy sorrow and everything in between.

It all meant nothing …every struggle … without any meaning.

But human beings, at least some of them are yearners for the impossible, for immortality and their place in the arena of the God’s themselves.

Whether this be accomplished through artificial means or spiritual paths of say enlightenment and recognising the divinity of man who in his sights sets to live forever is nothing but a cause or a quest to be admired.

Universe, explain yourself …

The universe really does owe me an explanation for giving me the ability to recognise the fact that I came to be in it in this human form for such a limited amount of time when existence itself is an eternal phenomena…am I not worthy ?

It’s the least it could do. Perhaps it would reply by saying there ain’t really a reason for my existence I’m just a fluke …pure random chance.

Yet I would feel short changed…wouldn’t you?

If a triangle gains sides it becomes a different shape. — Count Timothy von Icarus

No shit, Sherlock.

I’m talking about eternity in terms of eternal existence and the consciousness of man therein. Don’t see where your triangles have anything to do with what I’m trying to explore here but crack on…

And there is change in eternal existence I’ve put on a stone in weight last few months don’t tell me the scales are lying and that I’m not really a fat bastard…

As a theist though I do have to admit that the invocation of God to explain existence, the beginning of and other derivative questions does seem crude in the face of the atheist argument that things/the universe exists through normal albeit yet unexplainable natural phenomena.

As a theist or God believer myself the opinions of atheists has no bearing on my belief system just as much as my belief system has a bearing on the atheist.

The existence of God cannot be proven no matter how strong the arguments may be. Likewise it cannot be disproven with 100% certainty either as you’re simply giving the burden of proof to the theist.

Therein lies the problem does it not ? Proof or more precisely the burden of proof which neither side can provide regarding Gods existence/non-existence.

By way of simple mysteries which cannot be rationally explained it’s best to be open minded on the matter.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.

Another interesting thought I had.

In the face of eternity does the concept of time lose its meaning?

Just thinking out loud here.