Have you ever tried RTMS? I went through the whole treatment. It didn't help me but I found out many people happy with the treatment! — MoK

Are you talking about Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation? Then I have not tried it. It is not yet available where I live.

If you have a cure, please let me know.
— Truth Seeker
Ah, if I had a cure, I would be a gajillionaire, eh? And, with your decades of suffering, presumably having tried everything imaginable, and me not being at all educated or trained in these matters, I wouldn't dare even suggest anything.

But I can't help but think it means something that you would love to be cured and happy. I imagine many don't feel that way. Is that because you have glimpsed happiness, and want more? Or because you assume it's better than what you've been living with? If the former, then I guess that means there are possibilities.

I wish I could help. — Patterner

Thank you for wishing you could help. I have tried so many things over the years. Some things have helped a bit. I remember my fourth birthday party. I was happy back then. I was blissfully ignorant about all the suffering, unfairness and deaths in the world. I didn't know all the horrors that awaited me over the rest of my life. That was my last happy birthday. I wish I had died then or better still, I wish I never existed.

Yes, I have my medications routinely. I was hospitalized three times because I was out of my mind and had unbearable depression. I was under electroconvulsive therapy a few times too. — MoK

We have much in common. I received 9 sessions of Electroconvulsive Therapy. I have also been hospitalised 3 times due to the severity of my Bipolar Disorder. I have been on many medications. I am currently taking 600 mg of Quetiapine XL per night but I am still struggling with symptoms.

Yes, but I didn't know if there were others on this forum who also wished they never existed. It turns out, there are a few. The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan.
— Truth Seeker
That could be. So maybe you're asking because you're trying to find correlations, maybe even causes?

I'll stop beating around the bush. I thought maybe you ask in different places because you don't wish you never existed as much as you wish you didn't wish you never existed, and you're hoping, eventually, someone will say something that clicks with you, and makes you wish it less. IOW, the reason you have not committed suicide is you don't want to be non-existent. You want to be happy, and you're looking for ways to make that happen. — Patterner

I think about suicide every day and have done so for 37 years. The main reason I haven't killed myself is that it would cause suffering to my family and extended family. I would love to be happy. I would love to be cured of my CPTSD, Bipolar Disorder and Chronic Nerve Pain. If you have a cure, please let me know.

The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan.
— Truth Seeker

But suffering is part of life. There's no joy without suffering, no life without death. The entire reality we exist in is formed around this cyclical dual phasing. We are part of this reality, this nature as all beings, only we are aware of this cycle in a way no other animal is.

But that also gives us a responsibility to handle this knowledge; it is both a burden and a blessing to have it. Not to see the suffering of others, but to form a balance and harmony with the reality of it. We can't reject our existence in that sense, we need to harmonize with it. With all concepts of it. Life, death, the cycle; entropy perceiving itself. So... perceive it and don't waste this experience of being. We can fight for all to experience it as well, to gain the well being of experiencing reality; but we cannot disconnect anyone or ourselves from death itself, or their part in the cycle.

We are all food for nature, in some form or another. Like the bacteria in our guts slowly eating us through life only to fully consume us in death. They've cultivated us as their cattle, nurtured in symbiosis until the final feast of their lives.

I think we humans have an arrogance problem. Both in terms of belief in our importance and of our own responsibility. We either believe ourselves to be above nature and the universe, cultivating religious thoughts of our own importance. Or we view ourselves as responsible for processes that are naturally occurring phenomena of an animal, believing that because we can perceive ourselves as consuming nature, we have a responsibility not to.

I think we should find a harmony between our perceptive self-awareness and natural state; to accept who we are in a responsible manner; not praising our egos into power or blaming our awareness into oblivion. — Christoffer

You are right. How much culpability do humans have? How do you work it out? If hard determinism is true, we have zero culpability.

Yes, but I didn't know if there were others on this forum who also wished they never existed. It turns out, there are a few. The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan. We don't want to cause suffering and death by consuming animal products.

There are lots of intellectual people on this forum, so I thought it would be a good place to ask this question. I have asked this question before in another forum for vegans where most of them said that they wished they never existed.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I am so sorry about the hard times you have experienced. Are you on medications? What helps you? Thank you for the link to the music video. I am listening to it. While I am wiser now then I was before, I am not stronger. My symptoms reduce my quality of life significantly.

Because I wanted to know if there was anyone else on Earth who wished they never existed.

I am not a nihilist. I just wish I never existed. I am happy for others to exist. In fact, I have saved and improved many lives over the years through my work and blood donations, money donations, etc. I am also on the Organ Donation Register for donating all organs so even in death I will be saving and improving lives. I have been suffering from CPTSD for 42 years and 3 months, Bipolar Disorder for 27 years and 6 months and chronic nerve pain for 16 years and 7 months. So, I am no stranger to suffering. I think life is full of suffering, inequality, injustice and deaths. 99.9% of all the species to exist so far on Earth are already extinct. 100 billion out of the 108 billion humans born so far are already dead. The rest will die, too. I wish I never existed but I had no say in the matter of my coming into existence. I wish I could make all living things forever happy but I can't. I wish I could prevent all suffering and death but I can't.

I am pleased you are glad to be alive.

I don't know for sure. Certainly they are constrained by them. — 180 Proof

Thank you very much.

Not completely (or mostly). — 180 Proof

How do you know that it is "not completely"? Could it be that our habits are not at all free from our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences?

I am not preaching. I am just sharing my thoughts with the good intention that my thoughts will help others.

So... why are you so keen to teach us how to live, anyway? — Vera Mont

Due to all the suffering, unfairness and deaths in the world. I long to make all living things forever happy but I can't.

I agree that we can't change the past given our current knowledge and technology but it doesn't mean that an all-knowing and all-powerful being can't do it. Of course, I don't know if such beings actually exist. I agree with you about the importance of people co-operating and being altruistic. What do you mean by "we are spiritual beings in a spiritual reality"?

Yes, indeed. What about veganism?

I see your point. Thank you.

I see your point now. Although, the landlord can kick you out if you break the terms of the tenancy contract or simply not renew it at the end of the contract in which case you would have to move. Being homeless is certainly very difficult.

Are our habits ever free from our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences? I am not convinced such a thing is possible.

Some people are better at self-control than others. This is due to the mix of their genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. We don't choose our genes or our early environments, our early nutrients and our early experiences.

I agree with your caveats. We are never free from the determinants (genes, environments, nutrients and experiences), constraints and consequences of our choices.

As you wish. Thank you for your time and posts.

You want to remain ignorant instead of learning something new. How fascinating! I am not blaming you or crediting you. If I or another organism had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, I or another organism would have the same thoughts as you because we would be identical to you.
— Truth Seeker
I am not ignorant of the topic. I have no time to read a book that denies the reality of free will. Philosophers of mind still struggle with the Hard Problem of consciousness. I am wondering how then could address free will when they are unsure what consciousness is! — MoK

I am not a philosopher. I am a scientist. We make voluntary choices but our choices are never free from determinants, constraints and consequences. The so-called Hard Problem of Consciousness is not actually all that hard. It's a philosophical construct, nothing more. You could claim that I am a Philosophical Zombie. It would be impossible for me to prove to you that I am a conscious being. Just because it is impossible to prove to others that I am conscious, it does not mean I am a Philosophical Zombie. Philosophical Zombie is yet another philosophical construct, nothing more.

You want to remain ignorant instead of learning something new. How fascinating! I am not blaming you or crediting you. If I or another organism had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, I or another organism would have the same thoughts as you because we would be identical to you. No one deserves any blame or credit for anything.

No, doubt is not special. Just because you claim it to be special does not make it so. Have you read the two books I recommended?

The mental state of experiencing doubt is not something special that sets it apart from other mental states.
— Truth Seeker
It is special. If we accept the mental phenomenon of doubt, we can conclude that options are real.

We experience many sensory perceptions, thoughts and emotions. They are all produced by our brain activities.
— Truth Seeker
Yes, brain states are subject to change and are deterministic. The question is how doubt can arise from the brain, considering that it is a deterministic object. — MoK

No, doubting is not special. You clearly don't understand how the brain works. Please read "Being You: A New Science of Consciousness" by Anil Seth and "Determined: Life Without Free Will" by Robert M. Sapolsky. If you have any questions while reading these books, please ask here and I will do my best to answer them.

I am talking about mental state doubt. — MoK

The mental state of experiencing doubt is not something special that sets it apart from other mental states. We experience many sensory perceptions, thoughts and emotions. They are all produced by our brain activities. Our brain activities are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Let me give you an example to help you understand. The selection of lottery numbers is entirely deterministic. I doubt I can predict them with 100% accuracy every time. My inability to predict which lottery numbers will be drawn at each draw has to do with my lack of omniscience and the large number of possibilities.

Doubts are not allowed in a deterministic world. Everything is certain in a deterministic world since by definition determinism refers to a worldview in which each state of matter uniquely defines another state of matter later. So, I ask you this question whether you have ever had a doubt. If yes, then we are dealing with a problem, the problem being how doubt is possible. I don't think that anyone has a clear answer to this. So to me, the mental phenomena are not easy to understand and do not follow the rule of determinism. — MoK

The statement: "Doubts are not allowed in a deterministic world." is false.

We never know all the long-term consequences of our actions.
— Truth Seeker
Then options are real if you don't know the consequences of your actions. — MoK

Knowing or not knowing the consequences of our actions has nothing to do with options being real or not real. We can make voluntary choices. My point is that our choices are never free from determinants (genes, environments, nutrients and experiences), constraints and consequences.

1. Clean up the dog poo.
2. Avoid stepping on the dog poo but not clean it up.
3. Step on the dog poo.
— Truth Seeker
4. Step on it and clean it up. — Patterner

Yes, the fourth option is also possible.

I talked about a situation when you are not certain, by this I mean you do not know the consequence of your decision. — MoK

We never know all the long-term consequences of our actions. For example, let's say in my previous example, I cleaned up the dog poo from the pavement. I know the immediate consequences of this action but I don't know what effect this action will have on myself and others a week, a month, a year, a decade, a century, a millennia and on and on down the line.

That means we are dealing with options in those situations where we are not sure. — MoK

Even when we are sure about the outcomes, we are still dealing with options. For example, let's say that I am walking and I notice dog poo on the pavement. I have thought of three options in this situation:

1. Clean up the dog poo.
2. Avoid stepping on the dog poo but not clean it up.
3. Step on the dog poo.

No one is coercing me to do any of the three things so my choice to do any of them is voluntary. However, my choice is not free from determinants, constraints and consequences.

If I choose option 1, it will cost me some time, effort and a plastic bag (if I have a plastic bag with me). Doing this will prevent someone else from stepping on the dog poo.

If I choose option 2, it will save me some time, effort and a plastic bag but there is still the risk of someone else stepping on the dog poo.

If I choose option 3, it will make my shoe dirty and I will have to either clean up my shoe or throw away my shoes or keep wearing shoes with dog poo on them and spread the dog poo from my shoes to the inside of my home.

Which of the three options I select is determined by my genes, my environments from my conception to the present, my nutrients from my conception to the present and my experiences from my conception to the present.

If I had the genes of a banana tree instead of the human genes I have, I would not be sentient and would not even notice the dog poo, never mind think about my options.

If I was in a life-threatening environment e.g. someone was shooting at me with a machine gun, I simply would not give the dog poo much thought. I would be preoccupied with how I can avoid getting shot by taking cover or running erratically.

If was deprived of nutrients as a zygote, I would not even get to be born. I would have died when I was in the womb.

If I experienced an accident which caused me to go blind, I would not have even noticed the dog poo.

I could go on and on and keep listing more and more scenarios but I don't want to spend any more time explaining how we are never free from determinants, constraints and consequences. Have you understood my point? If you haven't understood it, please let me know and I will try to explain further.

If the existence of options is not what causes us to be uncertain then what it is? — MoK

I did take on board your question and I answered it to the best of my knowledge. If you have a better answer, I am happy to read about it.

No one has chosen their genes. But people don't blame their genes for the choices they have made. Free will is your mental state, which has little to do with your genes, environments and nutrients.

Making a choice is your mental event based on your reasoning and thinking on the various options. Nothing else is involved in making choices. — Corvus

Our choices can be voluntary but they are not free from determinants, constraints and consequences. Our reasoning and thinking depend entirely on our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

As I already said in my previous post, we are uncertain because we are not all-knowing. Only an all-knowing being is always certain about everything.

I don't know.

There are maps, and there are territories. Our brain is a territory in itself, but it's a territory which contains maps of other territories. Those maps can be wrong. Being wrong is a feature of the map, not the territory. Uncertainty is a feature of the map, not the territory. — flannel jesus

I agree.

The important question is how could we possibly be uncertain if matter is a deterministic thing. — MoK

We are uncertain because we are not all-knowing. Which lottery numbers will be the winning numbers? If we knew that we would always be able to pick the winning numbers for the jackpot.