If this were so, the red shift would be greatest towards the mass that is pulling everything in since acceleration would be greatest there. Smaller red shift in the opposite, and blue shift in the other 4 directions as things parallel to us all get sucked closer to this mass. This tendency is called tidal force: expansion in 2 dimensions and contraction in the other 4, and is a signature of a strong gravitational field.Hmmm. What I think we've observed is red shifted galaxies relative to us. It could be that those closest to the centre (we need a centre for a big bang or for a new convergence place) are moving faster than us toward the centre, just as those further from the centre are moving slower relative to us. It would make sense as gravity grows stronger - almost like a singularity toward the centre. — MikeL
I find it reassuring that not any objection to the consensus is blindly accepted. I understand the need for Science to be conservative, and set the bar higher. At the same time, discussions of what seems to be an eternal truth should not be silenced. — Hachem
You seem to be unclear on the difference between evidence and proof. Yes, there is no disproof of idealism, but evidence abounds. It is also illogical to debate idealism since you're having a debate with a consciousness that cannot be experienced, and hence doesn't exist.The universe hasn't changed in terms of physical laws since animal life emerged.
— fdrake
We have no evidence of this one way or another.
Nothing requires consciousness
— fdrake
No evidence one way or another. — Rich
Didn't say it was.Probabilistic is not determined. — Rich
So you've repeatedly asserted. You are free to deny any evidence that does not convenience your faith.There is zero support for determinism.
I think hidden variable interpretation is bunk, but it would be an example of deterministic physics if it were the case.You and the OP late looking for some hidden variables that are deterministic.
Probabilistic is not undetermined. For that matter, determined does not mean determinable.QM reigns and it is probabilistic. Zero determinism. — Rich
Agree with TMF here, sort of. The world is for the most part predictable, but that does not in any way imply deterministic.an intent and subsequent action may have quantum origins but the effect is macro-scale (the world we see, hear and feel) and this world is deterministic.
— TheMadFool
People often say this. They can't, however, model it.
Planning would be pointless if the world weren't predictable.
— TheMadFool
On the contrary: if the world were predictable, there would be no need to plan. — mcdoodle
Yes.You mean, for example, we can derive the laws of motion from QM principles? — TheMadFool
The math makes sense in all of them, else they'd not be valid interpretations, but rather disproved hypotheses.I thought for a choice to hold the math has to make sense.
The primary one that drove Einstein which is relativity of simultaneity. There seems to be no ontological status difference between different times of a given object. Is it possible that Napoleon of 1781 does not become emperor and die 40 years later? Quantum theory is oddly mute on this point.Fine, then give some evidence for determinism. — Rich
Have not heard this. Hmm, climate change makes it rain less on certain forests and increase fire risk? This is just a guess.Some qestions i have for anyone with environmental and wether sciences knowladge is:
Can the relase of methane cause widespread increase in forrest fires and how does it work? — XanderTheGrey
Any global warming makes for warmer oceans, and ocean heat is what fuels hurricanes. Tornadoes is different dynamics, and I don't see a methane connection. Methane or global warming has little effect on conditions of cold air above warmer air.Can it cuase an increase in hurricanes and or tornadoes and how does it work?
Methane would seem to have no effect on this. Not like concentrations would reach levels where it could ignite.Will it effect lightning? In what way, and how?
About 35c skin temperature I'm told.What temperature can a human being survive at individually?
It is trivial to disprove such epistemology even given a simpler natural law that is not probabilistic. Determinism is not a claim of what can be known.The standard determinism story (and all if it is just a story) is that if everything is known coupled with the musical Laws of Nature then everything can be known. — Rich
No proof perhaps, but zero evidence is a pathetic claim. There is in fact quite a bit of evidence for both sides of the debate. You seem to have chosen a side and justify that bias by refusing to acknowledge existence of evidence to the contrary. Cherry picking is always a good way to bolster your biases, but it sucks as a method for real discovery. Embrace contrary evidence and win past it. Hiding from it only demonstrates that you fear to face it.as for determinism zero evidence to support it. — Rich
Haven't stated my position. Not sure if I have one,If you are a determinist, — Rich
And you repeat the mistake again.I guess if everything is unpredictable then there is zero evidence to support determinism. — Rich
If the evidence was as clear as you claim, it would not be a matter of faith, but rather a matter of holding a belief in a position inconsistent with evidence.It just becomes a matter of faith, — Rich
It does answer the OP, but the OP wasn't about determinism. I'm saying that your dragging that into the conversation was irrelevant to the subject at hand.And as science understands the behavior of matter it all probabilistic, which hopefully answers the OP. — Rich
They don't claim predictability though, and your arguments are against that perceived claim of predictability.Determinists? You know, all those who believe that everything is fated ever since the Big Bang blew its top. — Rich
What 'clear' evidence have you against the determinism aspect? The fact that we can't predict things (trivial, isolated systems for instance)?In any case, science is quite clear, there is no determinism though it doesn't stop scientists and educators from perpetuating the belief.
Who is clinging to these old ideas of perfect predictability? Anybody who knows their mathematics, never mind their physics?If course. Old ideas die hard. There is no such thing as precise prediction of anything. — Rich
Materialist-Determinist is a philosophical stance, not a scientific one. Science does not depend on the stance, even if some scientists hold the stance in faith, as you do whatever yours might be.Materialists-Determinists who view themselves as objective scientists seem to have a very difficult time with their faith. — Rich
Quite the opposite. Natural law is derived from QM, not the other way around.Quantum physics, which I don't understand, aside, the world on the human scale (macroscopic world?) is governed by fixed natural laws of matter, energy and force. — TheMadFool
In a pure Newtonian set of physical rules, this is true.Even the roll of a dice or the toss of a coin are governed by laws of mechanics.
QM does not say it this way. This is interpretive language, which you are free to use, but such language is not QM.I've heard that, for instance, radioactive decay is objectively a chance thing - which atom will decay is entirely random (so they say).
Even in hard deterministic universe without QM, such predictability is easily disproved. Inability to predict has nothing to do with determinism or lack of it. You seem pretty bent on a different stance.He is restating a 17th century philosophical faith that someday science will discover the Laws of Nature that will enable scientists to predict everything. — Rich
Wait, what if the law above is a probabilistic one? It means the mathematical model has probability baked in. Interpretation of that model on the other hand is open. There are multiple consistent (valid) interpretations, and if it is meaningful that one of them is more correct, then that's where the ignorance comes in: There is no way to choose among valid interpretations, so the typical course of action is to choose based on what you want to be true.I'm saying that probability is deeply linked to ignorance. The process by which we conclude whether or not a certain process/thing is probabilistic or not is exclusion.
What I mean is, first, we assume the existence of a general law that governs a process. If we find one, we name the law and express it mathematically. Only if not, are we warranted to think the process/entity is probabilistic. — TheMadFool
While I do think the situation can be reduced to particle physics, at no point in that view is there a 'thing' which does an 'action'. There is never a definition of a fist or the anger that drives it. I voted for talking past each other.Mr. Reductionist says that the actions and behaviors of anything in that ecosystem can be explained by the motions of its constituent particles, since it's all made of matter anyway. — Pneumenon
The lack of determinism seems to have little impact on reductionist particle descriptions of an ecosystem. OK, in neither the reductionist nor the holistic view can future states be determined, but absent agency from outside the ecosystem (which would be information actually leveraged from the dice rolling), behavioral states seem to follow the classic predictable rules of billiard balls. The only quantum amplifiers I know about are those in physics labs.I voted substantive mainly because you seem to have ruled it out by setting up the idea that an ecosystem is equivalent to a bunch of billiard balls. So the image you provoke in my mind is of a deterministic system, such as life-game. In such a world, glider guns, gliders, and all the myriad more complex constructions are strictly reducible to the deterministic laws. In such a world, Mr Irreductionist is simply wrong, and the disagreement is substantial.
On the other hand, if the world is not deterministic, Mr reductionist is simply wrong. — unenlightened
So look to the biologists for answers. As a side note, I visited the Alaskan rain forest and also a small patch of woods just outside that zone which we dubbed 'honey I shrunk the kids'. Many plants were recognizable (the same ones I have at home), but about 4x the size I normally see. The dandelions stood about a meter high for instance.I did acknowledge that earlier in the thread. It remains mysterious, however, why the mega-fauna of that age was so much bigger than anything that exists today. Some of the brachiopods weighed as much as today's whales. I was wondering if there is any global change that might explain this disparity. — Wayfarer
3 is worded entirely differently. You've not stated that F cannot see that F is consistent, nor that humans can prove that F is consistent. So nothing seems to have been demonstrated at all. Line 4 does not follow at all.2. Then, according to Gödel’s theorem, F cannot prove its own consistency.
3. We, as human beings, can see that F is consistent.
4. Therefore, since F captures our reasoning, F could prove that F is consistent. — deepideas
I stand corrected. It really was about an imaginary or conceptual god.↪noAxioms
The first, and best-known, ontological argument was proposed by St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th. century C.E. In his Proslogion, St. Anselm claims to derive the existence of God from the concept of a being than which no greater can be conceived. St. Anselm reasoned that, if such a being fails to exist, then a greater being—namely, a being than which no greater can be conceived, and which exists—can be conceived. But this would be absurd: nothing can be greater than a being than which no greater can be conceived. So a being than which no greater can be conceived—i.e., God—exists
— Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
I'm thinking conceive = imagine
Am I wrong still? What's the difference between ''conceive'' and ''imagine''? — TheMadFool
What do you mean by 'proves reality' and which scientific finding lays this claim?When we hear that a certain experiment 'proves relativity' we get the impression that scientists are one step closer to establishing relativity as absolute reality. — FreeEmotion
Given an arbitrary choice of frame, yes, this measurement can be done.So in the above example, it is possible to synchronize clocks, and it is possible to measure the one way speed of light? — FreeEmotion
Within 10% errorI'm curious what percentage accuracy? — FreeEmotion
This can be done, but the synchronization of the two clocks is frame dependent. For that matter, so is the distance measurement since E1 and E2 are not simultaneous.If we have the spatial separation between events E1 and E2, and know the times at E1 and E2, we can calculate the light speed. (not measure?). Why assume it a constant when we are trying to measure it in the first place? — FreeEmotion
Slowly moving apart doesn't necessarily work. You start at a midpoint and move the two clocks symmetrically in opposite directions. That defines a frame, but the two clocks stay synchronized despite the speed at which this might be done. Now you can measure your light speed. Painful way to do it, but valid.Now I know that the clocks need to be synchronized, or the other option is slowly moved apart.
If we are able to have control over how fast the clocks are moved apart, we can establish the error bounds due to non-synchronization and take this into account.
If you use synchronized clocks, it is a measurement. If I know light speed, I can compute the time and don't need the clocks. But synchronization is frame dependent.Why "compute" and not "measure"? — FreeEmotion
Didn't know this. Looked it up, and pretty much yes. They said that light was absorbed by the lattice, not the atoms, as evidenced by the absence of absorption lines in the refracted spectrum.It concerns the speed at which light is transmitted. It's known that the speed of light is different in different mediums, and this involves refraction. I believe the classical way of understanding this, understanding light as waves, involves the wavelength of the light. The quantum understanding of this difference in speed involves the light photons being absorbed and reemitted by the atoms of the material. — Metaphysician Undercover
I've not heard of anything like that, but I'm no expert either. All descriptions I read are from light being absorbed, not just passing by if it was merely being transmitted through a material that passes light like glass. Yes, glass interacts, but not by giving off electrons.I believe that when light is transmitted through a substance, there is an interaction between the electrons of the material, and the light energy. — Metaphysician Undercover
You need to redefine omnipotent then, since most-powerful carries no implication of 'can do anything'. You asked if the logic was sound, and I responded without preconceptions of what alternate definitions you gave.Let me clarify my argument:
x and y are omnipotent beings.
x being omnipotent can do anything. — TheMadFool
My example was the most-powerful bunny, which by your definition is God if there's nothing more powerful than it. There's plenty of things it cannot do (not all-powerful), but that doesn't preclude it from being the top of some arbitrary ranking according to power.So you're saying the most powerful being is NOT an all-powerful being? So, in what sense is the most powerful being the most powerful if it's not all-powerful? — TheMadFool
Then none of the other statements follow from your one postulate of god being the most-powerful and there being two of them.My postulate is omnipotent beings exist. My assumption is that there are two. All propositions in my OP follow logically from there being two omnipotent beings. If they contradict each other that much the better as contradictions are proof that there can only be 1 omnipotent being. — TheMadFool
First of all, you need to label your points as postulates or conclusions. Hard to tell.Omnipotent being = The most powerful being
God(s) is/are omnioptent being(s).
Assume: there are TWO omnipotent beings, x and y.
1. x is omnipotent
2. y is omnipotent
3. If x is omnipotent then x can kill y
4. If x can kill y then y can be dead
5. If y is omnipotent then y can't be killed
6. If y can't be killed then y can't be dead
7. y can be dead AND y can't be dead (contradiction)
So, our assumption that there are TWO omnipotent beings is false. This reasoning can be applied to any number of Gods.
Is my proof sound? Is there another proof that there exists only 1 god. — TheMadFool
Relativity is not a full description of reality. A full description would need to include relativity. Light is still photons, and relativity is based on the observed fact that the speed of photons is a constant in a vacuum. It says that they have zero rest mass and frame-dependent nonzero energy. Relativity says little more than that at the level we're discussing here. Look to quantum mechanics for a better description of what a photon actually is.What is the underlying method of light transmission that relativity ultimately describes? With Newton, you had a mechanism - photons, if relativity is a description of reality, then what is the underlying reality? — FreeEmotion
The photoelectric effect concerns emission of electrons when light shines on a surface and has nothing to do with light transmission mechanism or relativity.It is called the photoelectric effect. — Metaphysician Undercover
OK, those are events, but how do you measure speed between events? There is no frame-independent definition of that in physics. So you've not specified a frame for these two events. Essentially you need to tell me the spatial separation between events E1 and E2, and given that we know light speed, we can compute (not measure) the time it takes for light to make the trip in the frame you've specified. This is obviously not a measurement of light speed since we're assuming a constant for it in our calculation.OK, but the distance and time to D1 is not needed, just take the event consisting of light reaching D1 and the event of light reaching event D2, and measure the speed in between. — FreeEmotion
You're describing objects, not events. The above setup needs a defined frame to take a measurement, and none has been specified. So for instance, the D1 detector doesn't know when the light was emitted and thus how long it took to get there or how far it traveled. That needs definition, so the measurement of elapsed time can be taken. You've not provided that.Let's take the first instance. You have a two detectors, that measure when light passes one and then when light passes the other, D1 and D2. You then have light emitted from an emitter of course, from somewhere outside the detector, along the same axis as D1 and D2.
E >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>D1>>>>>>>D2>>>>>>>
It makes no difference if the emitter is moving towards or away from the detecting apparatus, the speed of light they measure will always be the same. Is that correct? — FreeEmotion
This explanation has been falsified long ago. You persist in a model that predicts different results than those that are empirically observed.One explanation is that E, D1 and D2 all are immersed in an invisible medium just like air is to sound, that transmits light by first responding to the disturbance at E and then transmitting the light at the natural speed that the ether transmits light to D1 and D2.
I suppose no alarm bells need to be raised here, this is the explanation involving ether.
Relativity is not a statement about the mechanism of light getting from here to there. It is about the geometric implications that directly follow from a fixed light speed.What I think I meant was, in the absence of ether, what other explanation is possible? The ballistic theory will be ruled out by the independence of the speed of the emitter.
The wave theory would work, but it needs a medium.
How would you describe the way in which light is transmitted, without using either the ether, waves in ether or the ballistic theory? What is this concept and can it be put into words?
Indeed. But still a smaller hell than the current path. A preemptive bubble burst might wipe out over half the population, an intolerable situation. But doing only tolerable measures will be far worse. It is the trolley problem. Do nothing and the calamity is 5x worse and history wonders why nobody acted. Do something and the weight of the consequences rests on those that altered the path and history remembers them. Heroes or Hitlers?. Probably depends if those that choose go down with their own ship.It isn't the case that no solutions can be suggested; suggestions have been made. There are two problems with the suggestions: The tolerable suggestions do not result in enough of a reduction in CO2 and other greenhouse gases such as methane or CFCs to help a lot. The intolerable suggests could (probably) result in large enough reductions in green house gases to limit warming, but would also be extremely, and intensely, disruptive to most aspects of life.
Were we to abruptly stop processing petroleum, stop burning coal, switch to a 95% vegetarian diet, sharply reduce manufacturing, begin massive reforestation projects, reduce total world population, and so on we might bring global warming to a halt -- not instantly, but in a century or so. Some side effects of this approach would probably include: Economic collapse; massive social upheavals including revolutions; extreme dislocations of population; increased deaths due to exposure to heat and cold (not in the same places at the same time); a loss of health care infrastructure; and so on, and on.
"Severe disruptions" should not suggest inconvenience; it should suggest hell on wheels. — Bitter Crank
This rings true.If historians 500 to 1000 years from now are worth their salt, they will understand what we were up against in the 21st century. — Bitter Crank
I would have thought that experience is by definition subjective. One can consider something in more objective terms, but that wouldn't be an experience.and experiencing it through an exclusively objective framework — Anonymys
None, yes. Emission and detection of a photon are two events and events do not have velocities and do not define frames. The relative velocity of the apparatus involved is thus completely irrelevant.So there is no philosophical objection to light, or light waves or photons or whatever, being measured at the same speed no matter how fast the emitter and receiver are moving relative to each other?
None? — FreeEmotion
That's the intuition, and intuition is wrong here. All measurements (light in a vacuum) always yield the same number. Light is slowed if it goes through water, glass, etc.Can the concept of an object whose speed always is your speed + its natural speed raise any alarm bells?
The theory in question is a cosmological one (theory of big things explaining what we see in telescopes), the other end of the scale from QM interpretations (explanations of observed behavior of little things). Oddly, the two are sometimes related, especially in the realm of string theory.How is this hypothesis backed up? Because if the other universes are undetectable, then I am guessing that it was not brought up from empirical data. Then was it deduced somehow?
— Samuel Lacrampe
It apparently fell out of some interpretations of quantum mechanics, and later some string theories.
Quantum mechanics is well-established, string theories aren't. — jorndoe