I have verified this through multiple sources.
https://x.com/ToryFibs/status/1763178221149782108?s=20

Sure, they are not the only ones to live in refugee camps. And it is reported that they aren’t even listed in the five largest refugee camps in the World:

As a percentage of the population?

Anyway, primary trigger might be more important than primary cause.

As I said, I’m interested in conceptual analysis, so if I can’t split hairs here, in a philosophy forum, where else can I? Besides I find it a worthy exercise as long as it helps better understand things.

Yes, of course please continue, I would like to myself on occasion. But I am short of time and level of concentration at the moment due to other commitments. Also I am more someone who looks for the root of things, or bigger picture in current affairs.

You do not seem able to provide a compelling argument for why it wouldn’t possible to separate moral case from a legal case.

You seem to impugn me here, (this is not the only time.)
Perhaps I would not mention the moral case (to separate it) if I were in a court of law (although I expect I would mention it)

This doesn’t need to be framed in human rights terms, not even for the international law:

The victims of oppression here have had various human rights violated. This reflects on the actions of the occupying, or controlling authority under which they are subject and under which they are confined. Yes you are right about nation state status etc. But we are talking about an apartheid state confining a subjugated population. Part of the case of the Palestinians is this treatment, it’s disregard of their rights and liberty against their will.

Besides I’m not playing any geopolitical chess.

I know, but you have been using it as a hammer.

I won’t answer any other points in your post here, because the discussion is expanding and I don’t have enough free time to address long posts right now. (But thanks for engaging and please continue, it is enjoyable).

I don’t recognise your characterisation. It’s true that in the post WW2 settlement there was a tacit understanding that Germany in particular and Europe in general were not going to fully re-arm, but rather the U.S. and U.K. would maintain a strong presence and provide security under the umbrella of NATO.

At the very moment Putin threatened NATO with nuclear weapons on the day of the invasion of Ukraine, that understanding ended and we will now see the re-arming of Europe. The U.S. will be glad of this as they are likely to become overstretched if they pivot to the east.

The racism issue has become politically weaponised in the U.K. However the reality on the ground is not so bad. Although there are workforce issues and residential status issues due to Brexit.

By the way, the constituencies of Norfolk are Conservative. The Labour Party no longer held the urban constituencies they once held in Norwich North and Great Yarmouth, leaving them with no MP's. Norfolk
I don't know if this is a paradox or a contradiction. :chin:

Norfolk is Conservative due to the farming community and the middle and upper middle class communities. I would think a lot of them are changing their minds about now. The Green Party is doing well in Norfolk and Suffolk. Norwich is a really nice city, not to big, about 250,000, or there about with a rich history and cultural life. Definitely worth a visit.

I know the Wye valley well, I particularly like Hay on Wye and Monmouth.

Very Alan Partridge, ha haaa haaaaa.

If you do make your way to Norfolk you would be very welcome to visit.

Agree about the class divide and cap doffing in Suffolk. I much prefer Norfolk in this respect.

I’m very much a mystic rather than religious. I had this experience and various others like it in the early 90’s when I was exploring spirituality. I also looked into religions as well and compared them.

Yes I found Jung interesting, I did keep a dream journal and explore dreaming and lucid dreaming in those days. I had experiences like the others in the thread had. As I say I found the more transcendent aspects the most interesting as part of my spiritual journey.

We are mainly going by climate, a little drier and sunnier, so the southwest, or northeast, like Suffolk. We are pretty flexible and hoping to find something nice since we are free to resettle where we want!

I live in Norfolk near the boundary with Suffolk and lived in Suffolk for ten years before that. I would highly recommend it. We enjoy the peace and tranquility here, one of the quieter parts of the country in terms of traffic congestion, or population density. I rarely lock my car at night and don’t expect anyone to come snooping around. There is a strong sense of community around here and social justice, although we don’t get involved in village life.
We value nature and have many nature reserves and good habitat within a few miles and the diversity of species in our garden is really high compared to the rest of the country.
Regarding the weather though, it is relatively warm, we have only had maybe ten nights of frost this winter, which would rise above zero by mid morning. The issue with the weather here is the number of cloudy and wet days. It can get you down when more than half the time it is raining, or overcast and you don’t know if you can go out without getting wet. Our garden is currently very muddy, it’s even reached the point this year where we have to wear wellies to go around the garden to feed our chickens and sheep. We have to take our shoes off at the door, always, the mud is clayey. But once you get to spring the weather is much better and the summers are glorious and rarely to hot.

There is an issue with the economic decline and lots of infrastructure is neglected and falling apart. Poverty is spreading and public services are in crisis most of the time. Many councils are going bankrupt at the moment, resulting in increases in council tax. However if you have money, or a secure income these things are not a problem. If I weren’t watching the news, I probably wouldn’t notice the decline. Except when I want to see a doctor, or want socially funded dental care. Both are very difficult to access. However if you are happy to go private, there is plenty of provision.

Quite, kills two birds with one stone. Keeps Europe weak and keeps Russia weak also. But I don’t think that the U.S. intended a war in Ukraine, but rather now that there is one they can capitalise on it. It is performing a useful role of keeping Russia occupied and weakened while it has imperial ambitions and it kicks the EU up the backside forcing them to increase their military spending and so take the Russia problem off their hands.

NO PRIMARY CAUSE OF THE CONFLICT,

There are still people alive who were uprooted in the Nakba, many and their descendants still live in refugee camps. Anyway, I think you’re splitting hairs a bit here. I agree there are other things in the regional political situation that play into it. I would have thought that there is more nuance in the current political situation in the region than in the origins of the current conflict.

I’m not sure what you mean by “moral case”, if you want to argue for a moral right to land, go ahead, I’m all ears. I limited myself to question a LEGAL right of Palestinians/Israelis over such disputed lands prior to the end of the British mandate.

I don’t think one can separate the moral case, or cause, from the legal case. I doubt that a Palestinian would seek to separate them. Without wanting to sound Woke, I would think there is a human rights issue here as well. There is an overwhelming case for grievance with the Palestinians. Something which many Israeli’s seem blind to.

“Merely”

Merely in the sense that it is an on/off lever, with little more control than that.

Fourth, your humanitarian standards seem also unfairly applied: why should Israel comply to your humanitarian standards, while Hamas shouldn’t? Is it because Israel looks much stronger so it has to apply greater restraint than Hamas? Would you think that independently from whatever the consequences are?

My humanitarian standards in this discussion may appear to be one sided. So is the level of aggression in the conflict and the regard to person and property.

I see now that you are hammering a nail with a geopolitical hammer. Feel free to play geopolitical chess. I doubt that many among us have the background knowledge of the political situation in the wider region to do more than broad brush predictions and generalisations.

From the moment Putin threatened NATO with nuclear weapons (was it the first day of the Ukraine war, I think). It sent a shiver up the spine of the EU. They will be building up their forces and perhaps forming an EU army asap.

After all, following WW2 I thought the idea was that Germany wouldn’t have a strong military, but the U.S. and U.K. would maintain a strong presence to hold the Ruski’s at bay. That time has passed now and it’s time for Germany, or should I say the EU to rearm.

When he made those casual threats it wasn’t directed at Ukraine, it was directed at NATO. Look at it this way, say Russia invaded Poland next. If NATO then made a nuclear threat, do you think Putin would pull his troops out? I doubt it.

Nuclear deterrence doesn’t work anymore. Because Russia is just carrying on with conventional war regardless. We know Putin is not scarred by nuclear threats, because he casually made them himself when beginning the invasion of Ukraine.

There are people who claim to have met God in their lucid dreams. But obviously and unfortunately the claims cannot be verified in objective sense. All minds are locked up in one's own brain, and no one can access to it apart from the owner of the mind.

I have had such a dream and what I find interesting is how one can experience other forms of consciousness, or other forms of experience than what we are used to.

For example in one dream I was lifted up out of my world by the Christ and as I looked back I could see my life laid out beneath us as though different experiences at different times were side by side, or in separate rooms and my whole life was visible in some sense. The perception I had was as if we stepped out of time and all time was before us like a landscape.

These experiences are difficult to describe as I am trying to relay something inconceivable to us as we are. The explanation I like to think of and which is described in religious text is of being hosted by a higher being. Such that one experiences something of their consciousness.

Quite, time to stock up on thermal clothing.

So it’s a tutorial now is it?

I asked you 3 questions evidenced in bold, you didn’t answer any. What are your compelling reasons to take your “specifically referring to the more recent nation building exercise by the British in 1948” or the PERCEIVED injustice of ONE SIDE (the Palestinian) as the starting point for an explanation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

I don’t have a compelling reason, or perceive an injustice on one side. These are established facts and opinions. Unless you are going to explain why the Nakba and subsequent Apartheid state is not the primary cause of the current conflict? So why should I answer that question?

Also are you arguing now that the people living on the land who were displaced during the Nakba should have, or had, no moral case for grievance now?

Another counterfactual. Why are you sure? Jews fled from their land ALSO because of the Arab/Muslism colonization and oppression. Arab/Muslism still today massacre civilians belonging to other Christian and Arab/Muslim communities.

It’s a comment on the inhumanity of the British imperialists.

Again you didn’t address any of the points I brought up, you keep just repeating what you think it is the case, maybe inspired by a self-serving understanding Hamas’s own declarations

My point was and is that the geopolitical players are playing a game of geopolitical chess alongside the conflict in Israel and Palestine. They are not playing a game of chess in amongst the conflict. There are backers of the two sides as you say, but they merely turn on, or off, the tap of arms/money supply, or turn the dial of urging restraint, or allowing unrestrained activity. The strategy on the Israeli side is determined by the Israeli government and the strategy of Hamas presumably is gorilla tactics from their hiding place, with some hostages as a bargaining tool.

I would even go so far as to say that the “increased tensions between Israel and Gaza and West Bank in the past two years” as the exclusive or far more relevant motivation of Hamas to conduct the massacre of October the 7th, is totally irrelevant wrt its international repercussions of the massacre and Israel’s threat perception.

Well that may depend on your perspective. I’m amenable to the possibility that the timing of October 7th attacks was orchestrated in some way by regional geopolitical pressures. I know that Israel and Iran have been facing off against each other for a long time and that geopolitical moves by Israel along with it’s partner the U.S. prior to the attacks will have inflamed tensions in the region.

I agree with everything you say in your last point with the following caveats.

Regarding the historical record of the inhabitants of the land in question. I am aware of this history, however I was specifically referring to the more recent nation building exercise by the British in 1948 and the fact that it produced an injustice in the minds of the people who were uprooted. The past 75yrs of tension and conflict originated here, as far as I’m concerned.

I agree that the Jewish people had a pre-existing claim and right to live there, as did the Palestinian people who were living there at the time. But the way it was done was in the superior imperial manner adopted by the British colonialists at the time, which set up this tense situation from the beginning. I’m sure if it had been gone about in the right way, a successful settlement could have been reached.

Regarding the wider geopolitical situation, I see the other actors around the world as bystanders with a bit of influence here and there, the geopolitical situation of the region. But they are in no way instigating this current crisis, but rather seeing it as an opportunity for geopolitical game playing. Russia stands to gain the most from this, while Iran is happy with how things are going. I wouldn’t be surprised if Putin were pulling some strings behind the scenes which we are not aware of. Putin needs to win Kiev in order to recover his reputation, the reputation of his country and to realise his vision of a rebuilt Soviet Union. If he fails his legacy will be greatly diminished, or seen as a failure.

So if there is an everlasting mastermind behind all this, we know who it is.

This is a recipe for the cycle to continue. With Isreal becoming armed to the teeth, if it’s not already.

It is nice to meet somebody who knows more about Australia than Australians do.

Why is it that many Australians are willing to "fry" despite the calamitous bushfires?

From your post;

The number of climate deniers in Australia is more than double the global average, new survey finds

And, notice, if the latter counterfactual was not more compelling to the Palestinians than the former counterfactual to the Israelis, this would further support Israelis’ aversion to the Palestinians’ cause, because it’s not peace they are looking for.

Well one can speculate, however we are talking of an occupying force (U.K.) gifting occupied land to a newly introduced occupying force (Israel). Perhaps the Palestinians were already unhappy about the situation beforehand.
So to speculate, if one were to swap the Palestinians for the Israelis and visa versa, we would possibly have the same issue, but with Palestinians as the occupying force. It doesn’t change anything, it’s just on the other foot.

I don’t see what you take to be “hotting up” but the US as the main hegemon while going through an internal political crisis has to intervene in Ukraine, then ALSO in Israel, then ALSO in the Red Sea is the example of hotting up I was talking about. And the multiplicity of these issues are draining and dividing energies from the main ally of Israel. This is not weakening but increasing (so hotting up) Israeli’s security concerns.

Ok, but these issues, where they affect Israel, occurred after the fact. After the Israel began their campaign in Gaza as a response to 7th October.
Unless you are drawing a link between US involvement in Ukraine and the escalation in Israel/Palestine?
I agree it does increase Israel’s security concerns, but in this regard Israel (Netanyahu), is his own worst enemy.

Besides, I question cause-effect reasoning in geopolitics for more reasons. One is that security concerns are not just about single (fac)actual threats but also anticipated threats (because it may be already to late to respond to an actual threat effectively, and because threats can come in combination with other threats). For example, Russia invaded Ukraine allegedly because of the anticipated threat of Ukraine joining NATO.

Agreed.

So you like discussing politics but then when challenged you responded with one line (“Israel is conducting an apartheid state. The responsibility for the outcome lies with them”) which doesn’t even look very much as an argument, nor addresses any of the many objections I previously made to question your views? Indeed, that’s the kind of response I would expect by anybody who wanted to end a political discussion, not engage in one.
But I guess the root cause of this is in my psyche, right?

I gave that response after being requested to steer clear of the word psyche. So I didn’t respond to your detailed post as that would have involved that word.

if the problem of the Israeli is best understood IN RELATION TO numerous others issues around the world (which is what I'm claiming), then we have a compelling reason to not assess Israelis’ actions in isolation from such numerous others issues around the world, don’t we?

Yes, but I’m not convinced that any of these issues played much of a role here. Rather I see this crisis as deeply intertwined between the Israeli’s and Palestinians.

The “others issues around the world” I was referring to are the ones that I and others kept talking about until now:

Yes, I see this. Perhaps these issues will come into play due to actors in these arenas capitalising on the crisis. Like the Houthi’s for example. But as I say, I don’t see how any of these were causal in the crisis.
It could be argued that Isreal and Hamas have backers, the US and Iran respectively. And that there were some pressures exerted in relation to the efforts to achieve normalisation between Isreal and Saudi Arabia. But I would attribute this far more to the increasing and violent occupation of the West Bank over the past few years. Also tensions between Isreal and Gaza had been increasing over the same period. These are the main drivers of this crisis.

I return to my point about Israel, Isreal is conducting an apartheid state with an oppressed population who they treat badly. The blame and responsibility for what results from this crisis lies squarely with the Israeli’s

What is “appreciate” supposed to mean here? These are two of your one-liners:

To appreciate, I mean to understand, to be aware of.

My arguments question such claims, and none of my arguments have even been addressed by you to come to the above conclusions, even though you claim to appreciate them.

I do understand the security concerns, however I am of the view that Israel’s security would have been secure had Israel not conducted it’s settlement policy and treating of Gaza’s as second class citizens over the last few decades.

I talk about Israeli security concerns, dead-lock nation-state struggle by Israelis and Palestinians, wider and hotter international hegemonic competition, the threat of Islamism, the political weakness and compromised credibility of International Law.

I don’t see a hotting up of hegemonic competition which would inflame the situation in Israel. One could possibly say something about Russian actions, or Trump’s actions in regard of Iran, or Afghanistan when he was in office. But I don’t see much cause and effect going on here. Islamism has faded into the background recently with the occasional terrorist action in Western countries. Again, little cause and effect. Unless it is code for Hamas.

So everybody else has to (kindly?) shut (the fuck?) up and listen.

I’m just someone who likes discussing politics and philosophy on a forum. What you depict here must just be in your head, it’s not in mine.

if the problem of the Israeli is best understood IN RELATION TO numerous others issues around the world (which is what I'm claiming), then we have a compelling reason to not assess Israelis’ actions in isolation from such numerous others issues around the world, don’t we?

Feel free to link this crisis with things happening elsewhere around the world, I don’t see much of it from where I’m standing. But if there is something, I’d like to know.

Something weird is going on in Australia. They’re gonna fry in a few years. Must be that problem with populism I was talking about.

Saudi is investing big time in solar, they know their oil is going to become a stranded asset soon enough. Russia knows this too, so want to grab Ukraines grain producing plains before it’s to late.

The Israeli propaganda machine was glorifying the victims of 7th October from day one, to justify the planned destruction of Gaza.

They obviously are AS other considerations. What I’m questioning and solicit people in this thread to give a more serious thought about is whether the considerations you seem to cherish so much (as many privileged white Westerners) are the main driving motivations of main involved parties’s decision makers with their supporters like Netanyahu with its Israeli supporters, Hamas with its Palestinian supporters

I don’t see the interlocutors you mention failing to appreciate this. I don’t, but I remind you that Israel is and is portraying itself as part of the West. Israeli citizens have strong links with all Western countries and move freely back and forth. This is one of the main reasons why those in the West are exercised over this issue rather than numerous others around the world.

So an hourglass changes its identity as each sand grain drops.

A moment of clarity.

What if the self is the linguistic heritage? This question is as confused as any other, but then, we are trying to communicate and only have words, our linguistic heritage, to do so. And that is where my "question" lives - only a mind can make any sense of these words at all. I would agree that maybe I don't know the language to properly ask myself "what are you?" (already this sentence is absurd) but I do not agree that because I don't know the language, I can't even conceive my question. Whether I can express it or not, something is being straight-jacketed; therefore, there is something beyond the words. I disagree that meaning is simply use. Use ties meaning to the words, but it does not tie the words back to anything else, and I don't agree that meaning is merely use.

There is a heritage of mystical traditions which address this and have developed schools of thought for enquiring minds to explore the issues. It goes beyond philosophy in the strict sense in that it relies on religious, or theological traditions, which are adopted as a framework on which to construct one’s enquiry.

Another point I thought of regarding anti-semitism: Could you think of another country whose hostage posters would be torn down if its citizens were kidnapped by another group? I struggle to think of one. Israel is regarded as the nexus of worldly evil for so much of the world, especially on college campuses and among the youth. It's disturbing.

Moreover, why are so many of the pro-Palestinian protests violent and destructive while in the pro-Israel ones I've never heard of any vandalism and everyone's sitting around singing "HaTikvah." The difference in "culture" between the two groups is stunning. The Palestinian crowd disturbs cancer wards with their bullhorns. It's self-righteous psychopathy. Extremely dangerous.

Special pleading.

A low level of anti-semitism is endemic in Western countries. It’s a hang over from the last few hundred years of persecution and prejudice against them.

If it weren’t there and Isreal were conducting the same actions against the Palestinians there would still be the same level of outrage across the globe. Outrage at a so called civilised country, a Western country confining a population and then starving them to death and bombing indiscriminately.

The only real question left is how we’re going to solve this existential problem. The solutions are already being employed and they’re worth looking at and engaging with, whether individually or, better, within a community or organization.

There are issues that come with the speed of transition to net zero. Due to the inertia in the system and how late we have reached a point where significant change is happening. Many of the changes are now going to have to be more rapid than a seamless transition would expect.

A case in point is the role out of charging points for electric vehicles in the U.K. There are massive hiccups in the role out. This is resulting in big hiccups in the introduction of electric vehicles and a slowing of the transition. For the role out to go smoothly there needs to be a sufficient number of charge points in sufficient locations for drivers to be confident that they will be able to make their journeys without the problems of not finding a charging point, or finding a queue at the charging point they need to use.

This has resulted in lots of people deciding not to buy an electric car until these problems have been solved. Also the inadequacies of the electrical grid systems have been revealed meaning there is a requirement for massive national upgrades in infrastructure.

Now this is just one case, there are similar issues across the board in the transition. Many of them converging in pinch points, or bottlenecks. This trips up the progress, resulting in frustrations, liquidations, unrest and protests.

The more rapid these issues have to be dealt with the greater the barriers and obstacles there are. The greater the upheaval.

There is also a political fallout from this. The rise of far right populism and the miss information they promote. In the U.K. the Conservative Party has failed to invest in the required infrastructure, failed to provide incentives, failed to put necessary laws and regulations in place for over a decade, to speed up the transition. Now we are in the position where all this has to be done at breakneck speed and the Conservatives are split with a faction insisting on reneging on our net zero commitments. This plays into the climate denial that is sweeping the Western democracies.

Divide and rule politics and far right conspiracy theories threaten to derail our efforts to tackle the climate crisis and the more the necessary changes are delayed the greater the upheaval.

Quite, a distraction. Often people get diverted onto plastics and recycling so that they continue using fossil fuels. While thinking they are doing their bit for the planet.

I will wait on micro plastics until there are firmer research results.

I can see that there might be some leaching of chemicals into the body from micro plastics. But if there is toxicity, where has it come from? Are plastics made of toxic ingredients? Also how come all the other micro particles in the environment haven’t caused similar problems?
I can see that there is a food chain issue, but has it been demonstrated that they accumulate at the top of the food chain and stay there?

I was wondering, there were already micro particles in the environment before plastics were invented. How come they are not a problem?

The Trump family doll collection.
https://x.com/Roshan_Rinaldi/status/1759088710627299375?s=20

Israel is conducting an apartheid state. The responsibility for the outcome lies with them.

It is horrific and for citizens in the West, very disconcerting. Because our so called just, compassionate, fair nations are complicit, or have their hands tied and we just have to all sit and watch while a pariah state runs amuck with extremists at the helm.

Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, framing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in terms of “humanitarian concerns”, “international laws”, “war crimes”, “equal rights” to obfuscate the above considerations is kind of a noble mystification, to be kind.

Yes there is a mystification, it’s not intentional though. It’s a cultural clash, between Western values and Arabic values. The power brokers in the region, on the one hand and the U.S. (taking Israel out of this equation) on the other, do understand each other, can negotiate and reach agreement which is honoured by both sides.

The fly in the ointment is Israel and its persecution of the Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan have an understanding with the U.S. and the power brokers in the region. They are not involved in this.

If we distill the issue down to its root cause, we find there is a problem in the psyche of the Israeli’s. Blame can’t be put on the Palestinians, they are an occupied, oppressed population, of which Hamas is a symptom. If we are going to find a solution to this it is going to be in the minds of the Israeli people and the diaspora which lives in the West and holds Western values.

Israel is an adolescent outpost of the west in and surrounded by the Middle East.

I would demand iron clad treaties with both Israel and the US on a right of return for all civilians before I'd do so.

It’s gone beyond that now. Israel has become a pariah state. They can’t be trusted to adhere to treaties.

Like, Russia should be totally isolated. China should be totally isolated. With the only key to the door being that they stop oil. If not, they can hunger until the people storm the leader's castles.

Who is in charge in this situation?


All the strategies you list will fail, resulting in martial law and authoritarian police, or military states. While the activists would be thrown in jail and vilified as extremist terrorists. Used as whipping boys for divide and rule populists. All action towards net zero will be abandoned. Carbon emissions might drop, but there would be global economic collapse. So no one will be able to develop the required technology and infra structure for a return to normality. More likely would be a Mad Max outcome. During a period of mass extinction and climate turmoil.

As I say, it’s important to retain a functioning economic and industrial system in safe areas for as long as possible. To give us a hope of pulling through as a civilisation with the appropriate technologies in place. Which are being rapidly developed now.

It's too late for some consequences, but giving up would be far more catastrophic. There's no point in just stop mitigation. But we have to speed up the change and do it fast.

This is equivocation. It is not the case that not following your prescribed actions equates to giving up.

Yes it’s going to be a rollercoaster when the AMOC circulation collapses. Rapid ice melt on Greenland could tip the balance during the next few decades. Resulting in much colder weather for Europe and global consequences. Followed by a rapid warming at a later date when it catches up with the rest of the world.
https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2024/02/new-study-suggests-the-atlantic-overturning-circulation-amoc-is-on-tipping-course/