You use therefore to introduce a logical result or conclusion.

So the question is, can you derive a logical result or conclusion, where the *thing you're concluding* preceded, in time, the premises you used to get to that logical result or conclusion? — flannel jesus

You have agreed that Therefore is to mean "result of", "consequence of" here. Result and consequence is clearly chronological and cause-effect nature. Result cannot precede Start. Consequence cannot precede cause.

And if you claim that some point or idea is wrong, then you must be prepared to provide full answer based on your own factual reasonings and logic for the claim. You cannot just claim some idea or point of someone is wrong, and then say it is wrong because the other folks don't agree with it or some authorities says so. That would make you look like a psychological biased man with emotional problems.

Okay, so please link it. — flannel jesus

Please google Therefore for its meaning. It is everywhere. No need for link.
I swim therefore I am wet is correct. I am wet, therefore I swim, is not correct.
I drank therefore I am tipsy is correct. I am tipsy, therefore I drank, is not.

My definition for Therefore is standard definition from any dictionaries on internet. It is nothing special, and nothing obscure.

Therefore is to mean, as a result of, consequence of.

I don't control what he posts. — flannel jesus

Yeah, no blaming you. It is a bit irritating to see him popping up with most smarmy useless comments with nothing useful or helpful contributions to the discussions when we are trying to clarify the issues in haze.

I am saying to you that my definition of "Therefore" is from the dictionaries, not invention of mine.

You have your peeping wonder pal popped up there with usual smarmy comments.

Sorry I am not sure what you are even talking about. Now you are talking about some apples suddenly. I thought we were talking about your reasons and explanations for your claims.

I don't know why you're asking that question. — flannel jesus

Do you not recall you suddenly out of blue, clashing into my post with your saying "the other folks don't agree with you. so you are wrong"?

I was then, asking you for your ground for the claims, and your own reasonings and explanations, why my points were wrong.

So... you're referencing an outside "official" source? So it IS okay to do that for this conversation then? Please clarify that for me - are outside sources relevant? — flannel jesus

For checking out definitions, sure it is a must. But for saying "the other folks don't agree with you." Or UOC said otherwise, and basing that for your judgement for right or wrong, I would say, is not really making sense.

What makes you think my definitions were my own invention?

Disagreemnts about how words are defined and used CAN'T be settled withohut reference to outside sources. Words are socially constructed - if everyone tomorrow decided that they're going to use the word "watermelon" to refer to headphones, then... that's what it refers to, from that point on. — flannel jesus

Words are lost at your groundless babbles. Do you realise my post were written after carefully checking the official sources for the definition?

Yes, I am not sure on your point of your claim that my post was wrong. I think you said, the other folks don't agree, and UOC says differently.

I am asking you your reasons for your opposition.

Were you opposing the point without knowing what you were opposing against?

References to institutions are there to make it clear that the things I'm saying aren't just invented in my own head. If you had a reference to an institution for denying the Antecedent, for example, that would signal to me that you didn't invent it in your own head, but that a slew of respectable thinkers share your view. — flannel jesus

What is your reasoning that my point is not correct? Please tell us. Don't lean on the others' shoulders or hide behind their shadows.

I have given out the explanations based on the reasonings. But you just say, well the other folks don't agree with you, and University California says otherwise.

If you don't agree with something, come with your reasonings why it is not true, rather than simply saying, the other folks don't agree with you, and such and such institutions say otherwise.

I will not try argue with you. Whatever I say, I know you will come back with some irrational oppositions with no content. No logical arguments and rational explanations work, so what is the point? :)

I swim, therefore I am wet.

If you define swimming as propulsion through water, then being wet is contained in, or comes along with, or is a consequence of, swimming. — Fire Ologist

"I am wet, therefore I swim." doesn't make sense, as "I think, therefore I am." doesn't make sense.
"Think" doesn't warrant for anything. "Think" means "think".

I am isn’t a conclusion. It’s as much the premise as the conclusion. It’s just a premise that self-certifies it’s fact as a premise. — Fire Ologist

In a proposition, it is. You are trying best to make the point. I can see that. But we are talking within the syntactic and semantic realm with no additives. If you beg for the possible assumptions and allowances into all the expressions, then there would be other folks keep coming back with some other possible assumptions in the expressions and sentences under analysis. It shouldn't be allowed.

Where Kierkegaard intersects with existentialist themes is about man's relationship to God rather than about God. — fdrake

How is the relationship God possible, if God is unknown? Does K defines what God is?

when K. writes man he definitely means men rather unfortunately. — fdrake

Why "unfortunately"?

It indicates a process of thought not a proces of causation or chronology. The detective's thought process, not the scientists proclamation of causation and order in time.

So, again, I think you misunderstand 'therefore' and are confusing word order with a diagram of events in time. — Bylaw

I did bow out from this thread, but you have directed your post with your poorly reasoned writings to me, misleading my points. Hence I am briefly back for pointing out the problems in your post.

You totally distorted the meaning of the word "Therefore" in your claims. Therefore means  by the result of, for that reason, consequently.  Therefore it has implications of chronology and cause and effect transformation for the antecedent being the past, or cause, and the descendant to imply the result, consequence and effect.

If you deny that standard meaning, then you are denying the general principle of linguistic semantics.  And that is what you have done to mislead the argument and further present the nonsense.

Have a good think about these example sentences.

I drank, therefore I got tipsy.    You are claiming that Therefore has no implication of chronology or cause-effect consequence. Therefore you are claiming that  "you got tipsy therefore you drank." is the same meaning as the previous example. This is nonsense.

It rained therefore the ground got wet.  You are saying it is OK to say, The ground is wet, therefore it rained. No. They are not the same meaning, and the latter clearly doesn't make sense.

"Therefore" has the meaning of consequence, resulting from the antecedent.  Therefore, I think therefore I am saying that because you think, as a consequence you are, you exist.Your denial and distortion in that case by totally misleading the meaning of the word just sounded nonsense babble.

You are therefore you think just means that because you exist, you can think.  If you didn't exist, then you cannot think.  Nothing more to it apart from the logical illustration, your mental activities are only possible because you exist. Nothing wrong with that statement logically and ontologically, is it?

I have presented in my previous messages the formal logic how the Cogito is false, and if you examined the logical proof steps, you would know that it only makes sense because there are consequential, cause-effect links between the two events on both sides of Therefore.

I do not blame you at all. I would have bowed out much sooner! You lasted for pages without agreement from anyone but didn't give in. I am really impressed! — Beverley

Thanks :) I am not an expert in Logic myself, but it can be an interesting subject at times. I think I will reread my Logic book again to refresh the memories. But really key points here folks don't seem know are these.

1. Validity does't mean Truth. Validity of arguments means that the conclusion was derived from the premises. A conclusion can be valid, but it still can be FALSE.

2. We are not trying to find validity of the main issue here. Our aim is trying to find truth or falsity values. They seem to betting whole their lives for validity of the assumptions for some reason, and accuse for logical leap.

3. When conclusion was based on the premises and true , the argument is classed as sound. When it is not based on the premises, but true, it is an unsound argument.

4. Here we didn't need to worry about the assumptions being invalid or valid. They are still not the conclusion yet. They were still assumptions. The point was finding truth or falsity of Cogito, not validity.

5. Truth of conclusion is always checked by the external real world events, facts and the state of objects. But here "Think" being a subjective operation of an individual, it is impossible to check the truth or false value from it. But we know about the existence of humans. It exists no matter what. Once a person is born, he/she exists until death.

6. When checking a statement in Logic, introduce contradictions based on the law of identity principles, eliminate some predicates by introducing AND OR connectives with the known axioms until the main statement's truth or falsity values emerges.

I have tried present my arguments based on above points, but not many folks seem to see the points. It was frustrating at times. But you were able to see and understood them, and I am impressed too. :D Have a great day.

I think I said enough on what I had to say. Much of them were just the repeating the ideas and points, which you seem cannot accept. I am bowing out from this thread. I have the other topics I would like to read and discuss. Thanks & all the best.

You are back! Yay! You are not collapsed in an exhausted heap trying to explain over and over why the cogito is not valid ... since page 14! Considering we are now on page 28, I'd say you have a whole lot of stamina! — Beverley

Yes, I am bowing out from this thread after this message. I was going to do that about 10 pages ago. But I was getting frustrated to see the continuing confusions and groundless claims. It seems it better not to waste any more time, if the confusions going to continue, then let them get on with it. I don't see their views ever changing with no matter what rational explanations were given judging by their continuous circulatory posts.

Will get on with some other topics and readings. Thanks for your input on the point. :pray: :up:

So would you mind trying to establish with me if its generally true to say "if P-> Q, then Not P -> Not Q must hold."? I would love to have this basic logic established, as it has so far been a fundamental part of Corvus reasoning to this point. — flannel jesus

I have explained on the point in my previous post clearly enough.

This is why the logic is not working. You cannot doubt everything and then suddenly, magically be certain of something. That is not too hard to understand, in my view. It is impossible to beat the skeptics at their own game. The only way to 'beat' them is to NOT PLAY THE GAME. — Beverley

Agreed. Thinking (Psychology) ===> Existence (Ontology, Epistemology). This is a leap. It is not even a logical leap. It is a psychological or paranormal leap.

Does this make sense? I am just checking. Please do point out if I have made a mistake somewhere. — Beverley

Yeah you are still right. Folks seem to think still I think therefore I am is some sort of logical statement, hence all the confusions.

Because they are so confused, we were trying to show in simple classic formal logic to see whats happening there.

In the course of logical proof, regardless of being invalid or valid, we can reason by introducing contradiction to the statement, and try to eliminate or trigger truth or falsity values from the statement. At this stage every statement is assumption. Contradiction reasoning is based on the identity principle that P = P, Q = Q. Therefore if P-> Q, then Not P -> Not Q must hold. This principle is priority to being valid or invalid of the assumptions.

When we examine Not P -> Not Q, we find that statement is incorrect. Hence P -> Q cannot be true.

This has nothing to do with Not P -> Not Q is a logical leap and all that nonsense.

Cogito is a subjective intuition. No one can inspect others' cogito apart from his / her own. Hence it is not an objective concept. It shouldn't have been even started for logical process.

But you are again correct. Because Cogito is an intuition, logical proof is impossible. It can only prove that it doesn't make sense concept, hence the statement Cogito ergo sum is false.

Hallelujah! I was doubting myself for a moment! I am not going mad then :) — Beverley

No you are not. Your reasoning and understanding are spot on.

The inference is invalid. logic does not show that if 'I think therefore I am' is true, then 'I do not think, therefore I do not exist' must also be true. — Banno

In the course of the proof, they are both assumptions until "I don't exist" is found False, when we checked it against the fact of human life in the world.

I just wanted to check, is your argument here that if 'I think therefore I am' is true, then logic dictates that 'I do not think, therefore I do not exist' must also be true. But since the latter makes no sense, then something is terribly wrong with it all?? Or am I totally wrong to assume that? I could have misunderstood. — Beverley

Yes, correct. You have got it spot on.

'I think therefore I am' implies 'I do not think, therefore I do not exist'. It is logically valid (reasoning via contradiction in Logic).
But I don't think or I think, therefore I do not exist is false. People do exist until death once born, whether they think or not. We know that from the fact of the reality in the world.

Therefore I think therefore I am is false. "I am" has nothing to do with "I think".
I am alive therefore I am, or I see me therefore I am are more meaningful statements.

People often resort to name calling if they are unable to find a way to respond to someone's comments.

I have to say, your patience at trying to get your point across is admirable. I don't think I would have so much patience. I would more likely think, "Let them just believe what they want."

What you are saying always seemed so clear to me, even before I researched how other philosophers criticized Descartes's cogito, I had already come up with similar ideas. — Beverley

Great minds think alike. Fully agreed with your fair and accurate analysis and comment on the point. :cool: :up:

You too, seems not knowing the difference between validity and truth. Something is valid doesn't mean it is also true.
— Corvus

What a clown. Goodbye. — Lionino

Suppose this is a typical response when the hidden ignorance was revealed. :nerd:

So in a sense I agree with you that the syllogism "I think, therefore I am" is really not a good example of syllogism — Fire Ologist

We seem in agreement there even if not in complete degree. Well, that's a progress suppose.
Thank you for your input on the point.

But "I think therefore I am" or better put, "thinking 'I am'" to myself demonstrates the objective fact of thinking as content in the world. The world is just very small, objectively comprised of me thinking "I am." — Fire Ologist

This is true. It is real to you, but it is nothing to me. Likewise, you would never know what I am thinking. It is true and real to me, but nothing to you. Therefore it is why, I think therefore I am is a subjective statement. It is a psychological mumbling or monologue, or as Banno put it correctly, an intuition to oneself.

When someone said, I think therefore I am, it doesn't mean a thing to me. I can only presume, that the person is making some mumbling noise to himself.

I exist, because I see me visually, hear me talking to the other people, and they talk back to me in reasonable manner and interacting with the world as per cause and effect principles, not because I think I am.

I know X exists, because I can see it, touch it and feel it. Not because I think it exists.

Thinking is objective content. It’s an instance of general being sought as a ground for something to know. — Fire Ologist

Thinking is a subjective mental activity. Content of thinking is private with no access possibility to other minds. To the owner of the mind, thinking is realistic. But to the rest of the world, thinking mind of you is an unknown entity. Until you demonstrated your thought contents with your actions or linguistic expressions, your thinking has no existence apart from to your own mind.

Even if you have demonstrated your thoughts publicly indirectly using your actions and linguistic expressions, the other minds wouldn't have 100% direct knowledge of your thought contents.

Therefore I think therefore I am is a meaningless statement to the rest of the world, and it is not an objective statement.

I see me therefore I am, would be a more meaningful statement. Because at least someone else could verify your existence visually against your statement.

That means nothing in this context. You can change it to https://www.umsu.de/trees/#(p~5q)~2(p~5~3q) or https://www.umsu.de/trees/#(p~5q)~2(~3p~5q) and it remains valid. — Lionino

Of course it is valid. Hence the assumption, Not P -> Not Q is valid. That was all it was trying to present. You too, seems not knowing the difference between validity and truth. Something is valid doesn't mean it is also true.

Curious, you were just saying how Bogart is not god. In any case, I already proved how this is in full agreement with Descartes: — Lionino

I never said Bogart was no good. I said Bogart was not a god. You seem to keep distorting the facts habitually. His point can be taken where it proves my point in the argument, but Bogart is not a god, and he is not no good. I don't know he is good or not good, and I know he is not a god.

Thinking → existing
I think
Therefore I exist — Lionino

There is no logical ground to deduce Thinking -> Exisiting.
I think therefore I exist is nonsense.

As I said before, Logic can only show you if the arguments and conclusions are derived from the premises. It cannot tell you the propositions themselves are true or false. You must get the truths or falsity from the real objects, situations and events in the world.

Cogito cannot be examined for truths. Therefore it is a meaningless statement, and Cogito ergo sum is a false statement based on the meaningless premise.

You are back to your nonsense sophistry again. Bye~

I am telling you this again mate. Logic will only show you whether the propositions were derived correctly or not from the assumptions, and that's all. Nothing more.

The truths must be checked out with the reality in the world i.e. the events, objects and situations.
I think therefore I am is a psychological statement. How do you check "I" think of someone else apart from your "I"? It is a contradiction.

It is just to show that Not P then Not was validly drawn from P -> Q. That is all.

You don't seem to know what valid means. Valid just means conclusion was derived from the premises. It doesn't mean conclusion is true.
A statement can be valid, but it could still be false. P -> Q is FALSE.

This is why I advised you to read some basic Logic books. It is not about the symbols.
The basic concepts on Logic seem lacking in your writings.