The Hologram is a good analogy because the mind is information and energy. — 3017amen

Maybe so, but the brain is chemicals and energy, exactly where is the information? If the information is the combination and arrangement(conflation) of these two it does not occupy any space of its own, therefore would be nothing more than a property of the brain.

flat and two-dimensional like Holograms — 3017amen

Are holograms supposed to be 3D?

Also, (sorry for all the questions) if information doesn't pass with the extinction of time, and from relativity the speed of light makes time stand still, does light/information itself become timeless and eternal? — 3017amen

I am going to wait for the proof that time stands still before commenting on this. But even then I think I would need you to explain exactly what you mean by information.

There’s no accounting for esurient hearts. — praxis

Give them all a heart shaped cookie/biscuit.

Pareidolia — praxis

Would seeing an image of Trump or Boris and thinking leader count?

I'll give it a go! The answer is a Hologram, otherwise known in physics as the Holographic Principle. The universe is a time matrix consciousness hologram. — 3017amen

So is the mind a hologram? But even if it was, does it occupy space?

Neurological processes obviously take up space so that's not your question. — John Onestrand

I would say it is and so the mind does occupy space (and also vanish when the body stops working i.e. dies). — John Onestrand

So if it takes up space and then disappears, where does it goes when it leaves the body?

the Central Intelligence Agency, whom I suspect to be monitoring me. — thewonder

This is interesting, very interesting. May one inquire why you think this?

I already knew the answer guys, but because it is the WORD of the DAY common sense would dictate the word be defined or at least used in an example sentence.

I've ejaculated a poetic idiom with double entendre. — Nils Loc

Get your hands out of your pockets. :wink:

:smirk: :wink:

Anyway, the word is turbidity. — Noble Dust

What does it mean? Or do I have to google it. :gasp:

Google now accepted as a verb. Seems a bit bloody stupid though.

Wrong. There would be a corresponding change in the mass between a living brain, which itself includes electrical current, and a dead brain, which does not. — Banno

Electrical current and electrons are not quite the same, electrical current is the movement of electrons.

The electrons would still be in the body but static instead of flowing.

Hence the only difference between a dead mind and a live one would be the bio-chemical-electrical actions and reactions of the life body. The dead mind would have none of them.
Movement of electrons does not cause change to weight, to which the OP refers.
It does possibly cause change to volume through the chemical reactions, but weight and volume are not the same.

When Facebook figures out how to do smell, everyone will be as disappointing as they really are. — Philomena Cunk

Ain't dat de trut mon. :lol: :rofl:

It appears then that all materialistic theories of the mind are doomed to failure on that point. — TheMadFool

Yep. :wink:

:smile: Stay safe. I hope you aren't anywhere near a coronavirus hot zone. — TheMadFool

Thanks. Where I live, they are just starting to ease the lockdown that has been in place for 4 months. The main problem here is not really the number of people infected not the deaths, it is the lack of hospital space, staff to man them and medicine to treat people.
The population is less than 10 million, the registered infections are just over 40 thousand and the deaths about 1500.

If the people going back to work do it responsibly there might not be too much trouble as the open more businesses. But we know what people are like, that is not going to happen. The vast majority of the people are poor, and after 4 months of not working will not be taking the precautions necessary.

If I was religious I would probably be saying god help us.

But I will just put my trust in Murphy and keep out of the way.

I am only a 66 year old kid, next time someone I don't like too much asks me how to do something I am going to use it as an excuse not to answer.

Who or what stop someone from trying to get ahead or perhaps even steal. Who controls them? — Outlander

So I suppose you are finding it easy to get ahead in the world, soon to be a millionaire I presume.:smirk:

You can create a system like that, but you won't be able to control it for very long. — Outlander

A system where all are truly equal though education would need no control. Ignorance is what allows people to be controlled.

Well, you guys are the adults here. You be knowing. — TheMadFool

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Best excuse I have heard in quite a while.

Is there anyone alive that does not?

I see. I guess if people are just going to make stuff up off the top if their heads then they could just make up a thing which exists but doesn't have a location. — Isaac

Yep, there is no such thing as a soul.

What possible reason would we have for believing there's anything more to it than that? — Isaac

None at all.

But some people keep on insisting that the mind "person" can and does exist without the brain. To do so it would need to have a location.

That is what I want someone to explain. What is this space it is in?

As no one seems to be able to do so, then it is obvious that the mind does not occupy a space, but is nothing more than a function of the body.

There's no one way. If you're interested in that, you've certainly found a way to help. — David Mo

I am a teacher, I try to do my part.

What are the terrorists doing here? To end the terrorism of the multinationals? Terrorism against terrorism, I don't think it's a good idea. — David Mo

I just mentioned them as a side thought.
If I was terrorist and I wanted to bring down a multi-national empire I would not even have to kill people to do it.
If I put bombs in 20 Pizza Hut places around the world and blow them up when they are empty, only property damage would occur. Then I make an announcement that the next 20 bombs will blow up while the place are full and that they might be any where around the world.

Would you go buy pizza?

Blow up a few more over the next few months and no one wants a Pizza Hut concession any more. Down they go.

Am I wrong? — Outlander

I think so.

Ironic how backwards and detrimental doing so would be toward preventing corruption, The utopia you imagine is actually a dystopia of the worst kind. I have a feeling people confuse eliminating corruption with eliminating people talking or knowing about it. — Outlander

First of all, I do not imagine utopia. Humans today are completely incapable of creating it.

How could eliminating ignorance of any kind cause problems. Education of all kinds is necessary for the advancement of people. If the people advance intellectually it will eventually lead to the end of corruption.

Eliminating superstition can do no harm at all. Don't you think that it would be wonderful if everyone got the vaccine shots they needed to stop things like measles spreading. Myths like the vaccine causes autism are stopping lots of kids from getting their shots.
Would it not also be wonderful if certain peoples' belief in myths allowed them to continue mutilating the genital of their young. Oh, sorry. No it would not be so bloody wonderful would it. That would be barbaric.
And also the myths about certain races being better than others would have to go, but unfortunately that would mean that the idea that certain religions are better than others would also have to be eliminated.

Defend that things can exist as properties of physical objects or defend that properties of physical objects do not occupy space? — Francis

Why do you think that everyone should be closed minded like you. If you ever plan on winning an argument, you have to be prepared to argue both sides of it.

Photons? How do we decide whether two objects A and B occupy space? Well, they can't be placed in the same location at the same time - one must be removed in order to put the other in the same spot.

Light, since it casts shadows which implies that light and a material object can't occupy the same space at the same time, could be massless particles that occupy space.

On the other hand, take glass. Light passes through glass which implies either that light doesn't occupy space or that glass doesn't occupy space. Since we know both of the above two possibilities are false, a paradox presents itself: Glass occupies space and light occupies space but light passes freely through glass as if both don't occupy space. :chin: — TheMadFool

Is they universe wonderful.

How are we every going to know whether the mind is a part of the body or the body is a tool of the mind? I have no idea. :groan:

The last requirement limits the mind to a space, I think; but then the mind does not only depend on the spatial distribution of the molecules which form it; it would also depend on their ratios, absolute quantities*, and their chemical properties**. — Daniel

While it is true that the brain is limited by the brain's properties and that the mind is affected by chemical imbalances I think that all of this means that the mind is one of the properties/functions of the brain and as such cannot occupy space.
A closed bottle containing perfume limits the smell to the bottle, but makes neither part nor property of the other. A perfumed candle is a complex mixture of carefully balanced chemicals, the smell is part of the candle in the sense that it is a property. It does not in it self occupy space because it is part of the chemical mix of the candle.

I think Lisa Feldman Barrett’s book How Emotions Are Made presents an intriguing body of neurological and psychological research with regards to the nature of this relationship of the mind to the brain. FWIW, I happen to believe that the ‘person’ IS “more than a group of cells interacting with each other on a molecular level” - but that may be a much bigger discussion. It depends on how we understand the various terms in this statement. — Possibility

I read a couple of her books years ago, one was called Emotion and Consciousness. Interesting.

Obviously this topic might be sensitive to some because it touches on the body/souls theme and therefore goes strait to religious beliefs.
I have still not made up my mind on the topic but I am extremely skeptical about the presence of a soul in the body. It is less complicated to imagine the brains functions being the ME.

Doesn't it? If, by deleting all humans physically, you delete all minds, then without special pleading, that does, on the face of it, suggest very strongly that minds are physically located. Why would it not? — Isaac

No, it only implies that the bio-chemical vessel of the mind has a physical location.
If we accept that the mind is nothing more than electro-chemical processes then yes, that would the space the mind occupies. If not then we are still stuck without a space.

How is knowledge of success constructed by schools, — iloveparis

School try to give students the tool they will need to be successful. The key word there is try. Not all schools try the same way or as hard to do their job.

Put an end to ignorance and superstition (especially religious). — David Mo

I saved this one for last. Find a way and sign me up to help.

What is an effective way to curb corruption in 3rd world countries mainly in Africa and south America? — Gitonga

I live in one, so I have a bit of experience with the topic.

Some of the proposed ideas might work, others no.

- ban private funding of election campaigns or cap it to a certain low maximum — Olivier5

Ban all funding, make the candidates or their followers pay for what they want or need. Personal checks only.

- get the state to reimburse election campaign costs within a certain treshold, for all candidates getting at least 5% of expressed votes. — Olivier5

Why should the tax payer have to foot the bill at all? In any country around the world the money is needed in health care.

- set up dedicated anti-corruption units in the judiciary to fast-track high-level corruption, and isolate such units from political pressure. — Olivier5

In most places they cannot afford to pay enough for these people not to be corrupted. Why would anyone work for a small wage and stick his neck out to catch crooks?

- for petty corruption (mainly) set up a dedicated phone line to report corrupt officials, cops, etc. — Olivier5

These guys sell or give the info to the bad guys to make a bit extra or keep their families safe.

- force all elected officials to declare and itemize their wealth, prior and after their turn, in a verifiable manner. — Olivier5

It would probable cost more to verify their declarations than what they are going to steal. These people are clever at hiding the money.

...for first world countries to get the fuck out. — Banno

Probably the best solution, but they should take their cash with them. If they want to help the starving people of the world they should take the food directly to them, not give it to governments.

Put an end to the global corporations. — David Mo

Great idea but not going to happen. I am surprised that terrorist have not worked this angle yet.

Well, it's an interesting line of inquiry because it uncouples the two essential qualities of matter - mass & volume. Is it possible for something to have mass and no volume or volume and no mass? — TheMadFool

Science says that it is possible, who am I to disagree.

Personally I think that like the old song said "you can't have one without the other". Maybe something has mass and they still don't have a method of measuring the volume. Or the other way around.

the five-dimensional structure of capacity or the six-dimensional structure of freedom. — Possibility

Just curious, where can I find more information about this?

But there is a tendency to assume that by actual ‘space’ we mean the three-dimensional structure of the objects in conceptualised reality. — Possibility

Which is why I asked at the beginning for someone to set a proper definition of "a space". I could not think of any definition that would allow the mind to have its own space.

The relationship of the mind to the brain is, I think, an established fact. But exactly what that relationship is, is not so well defined.
Many still refuse in this day and age to believe that the "person" is nothing more than a group of cells interacting with each other on a molecular level.

If the mind is the brain then, yes. If not then, no. Also it mind depend on what you mean by mind. If the mind is seen as brain function then, it becomes difficult to attribute a material quality like volume to function. Think of it - the lips and tongue take up space but in what sense could we say that speaking/talking has a spatial attribute. — TheMadFool

Exactly. From what I have read, most people think that it is just the bio-chemical functions of the body. I tend to agree with that.

I think that it would be difficult to assert that the mind occupies a space because there is no way to define a space that it could occupy.

An idea would depend on the spatial organization and composition of the molecules at the moment when such idea comes to mind.

To ask what makes the idea come to mind would be the same as to ask what makes the spatial organization and the composition of the molecules be the one which allows the existence of, or represents, such idea.

Each idea has associated to it a particular molecular spatial organization and composition, which changes in time, just like the idea. — Daniel

If this is true then the mind, the YOU, is nothing more than a bunch of biological/chemical reactions.

How do we control the chemical reactions?

:rofl: :cool:

Energy occupies space. Something does not have to have mass to occupy space. Just because a photon is massless doesnt mean it doesnt have a velocity, a location, a distance to travel- all of which denote location or "space". — Benj96

Everything you say is true.
Golf balls are always in a place, commonly know as a physical/spacial location.
If I say I have an idea, it would only make sense to deduce that it is located in my mind. What sort of location would it be then?

If the mind is in a space, how would we define that space?

If you burned all the papers, deleted all the hard drives, and killed (or lobotomized) all the people with knowledge of the mortgage, how would there still be a mortgage? Yet if the mortgage doesn't take up any physical space, then how have I destroyed it entirely just by destroying physical things? — Isaac

By the same method I can delete all humans from the earth, and there will be no minds. But that does not answer the question that was posed in the OP. Does the mind occupy a space. If it does, then the kind of space needs to be defined.

You don't have physical/digital documents that describe the conditions of your mortgage? When you forget the conditions of the mortgage, where do you look to find it? — Harry Hindu

The piece of paper is not the mortgage, only the physical representation of it. Think of a mortgage as a promise, is that physical?

Space is the medium that separate minds and the more complex some pattern is within some amount of space, the more information within that space. — Harry Hindu

Paper might fit the definition here.

Yes. We IT experts use the term, "space" to talk about how much is taken up by data and how much is free on your computer's hard drive. You have a finite amount of space on your drive to store data.

Well, I tried to get on with that by asking you this, but you seemed to want to ignore the question. — Harry Hindu

And this is why I said that before the question can be answered we need a definition of what "a space" actually is.

Space for IT people is not the same as it is for a NASA person, and neither use the word in the same way that a writer would.

We are using space in different ways and therefore we will never resolve anything.

If we take space to mean something that can be occupied by material objects the arguments would be different to those where space is used to mean the re-arrangement of existing material to accommodate non material OBJECTS.

Does anyone want to provide a fixed definition of space?

The mind doesnt have to be more than data because data can react to data. Analysis, computation and processing of data requires "software" ie. Data. All information reacts with information to transform it into new or derivative information.

Just as a mathematical function is information with input (data) and an output (data). — Benj96

So if emotions are similar to mathematical operacions, math like data would also have space that it occupies? That does not make much sense.

No, in my viewpoint things like Qualia do not have locations but they exist as properties of things that have locations. — Francis

But if they do not have a location, their mere existence does not mean that they occupy space. as Banno pointed out his mortgage is real, but it does not occupy any space at all.