Just thought of something. If we had a separate thread it could be a rival to the Shout Box or the never ending Last Word. :cool:

So we have 2 rules, where do we go from here?

Atheists unite against the behemoth of the religious sects. Let's make a stand and formalize our institution. Then we can claim equal rights and tax privileges like the rest of them do.

:rofl:

New thread OR continue here? :cool:

I think it is about time that we put the atheist moral rules down in writing so that they cannot be denied in the future.

I think that we should just start by making notes of the rules so that we can categorize them later and them put them in hierarchical order.

I have at least one rule that I would definitely like to see in the book, but I am not sure if it would be right to do it here or in a new thread so that everyone interested in living a moral life under the atheistic code of morality can add their ideas for consideration.

One of the most import laws that we should include is as follows.

One should avoid at all costs that the animals kept in one's house as domestic pets be allowed to defecate on the lawn of the neighbor.

What do you guys think?

Sure. Ants. Bumblebees. Are you sure their beliefs are criteria free? — tim wood

Are any beliefs free of criteria?

Life is full of meaning. From my childhood atheists pushed idea of endless universe and how tiny Earth was compared to cosmos. While human life was just product of evolution and had no meaning. Well. These days we've got simulation hypothesis which finally can scientifically reverse this trend and make Life full of meaning again. — IuriiVovchenko

I have never met an atheist that says that life has no meaning, could you possible mention one or two so that I can see what they say.

I know that life has a meaning, to live it the best you can and extract as much happiness as possible from the time you have alive.
What I don't agree with is the idea that there is some sort of celestial, god given meaning to life that we are left in the dark about and have to try and find our way to paradise.

No, I know for a fact that this is not true.

No matter how many times we have asked atheists to do that, they haven't, even though they perfectly well know that it is the Achilles heel of atheism. The truth is that they just cannot do it. Otherwise they would have done it a long time ago already. — alcontali

Who the hell would be interested in writing down a bunch of rules that most people follow without knowing because they are just plain ordinary common sense. Nobody needs a written rule that tells you when you can or cannot beat your wife. They apparently have those written into islamic moral laws though.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. How many atheist are condemned to prison for immoral acts? How many religious people are sentenced for the same crimes?
When you have that information then I will believe that atheists are the bad guy that the data shows them to be.

Atheism may reject God's law, i.e. tenets and rules, but it clearly does not propose alternative tenets or rules. That entails that there would be no need for moral rules. Hence, according to the atheist view, all behaviour would be equally moral.


It does mean that there is no need for ethics in atheism, because it rejects all other, existing rules for ethics without proposing an alternative take on ethics. Therefore, from atheism necessarily entails a trivialist take on morality. — alcontali

Atheism does not reject god's laws, if it can even be proven that they are his to begin with. Atheism rejects the idea of gods existing.
Where is written, as you insist on things being written down to be valid, that there HAS TO BE written moral laws or tenets to guide human behavior?
How does the fact that atheist have no written rules mean that we don't have need for them or have none?
And how can you state at the same time that atheists have no laws and then say that according to atheist laws.
It appears to me that you should start to think about what you write because you are continuously contradicting yourself.

If I propose an alternative to islamic laws about wife beating, would you guys pay any attention? of course not because my rules are not written in a pretty little book that is supposed to have some sort of authority. But wait a minute, who authorized your little book anyway? Why is your little book any more authorized to be the guide to human morality than the bible, the Torah, or The Lord of the Rings. Personally I would adopt the last if I had to make a choice about moral guidelines for my life, it is much more realistic.

Furthermore, an atheist who is consistent will not accept God's law while simultaneously rejecting the lawmaking God. — alcontali

Not accepting a god's law and behaving properly according to the society in which one lives are not at all contradictory.

That behaviour does not make sense. Seriously, why would he do that? Why would he put in effort in keeping the self-discipline mandated by a God in whom he does not believe? How would he motivate that to himself? — alcontali

So if you live in a society that is not islamic, you would not respect their ideals, laws and so on? Most atheist can get along with anyone and everyone that also respects their point of view whilst disagreeing with it. An atheist is usually self motivated to get along with the rest of humanity because it would be just plain bloody stupid to antagonize the people around you all of the time.
I have lived and visited in many countries in Europe and the Americas and have never had any problems adapting to their way of life. If you look at the situation in Europe right now you will see that the muslims that go there to take advantage of the freebie system fail drastically to adapt the their new home and spend most of the time trying to live exactly as they did in the old country which they were too happy to escape from.

I am still waiting for an answer to my questions.

Think about it, do you really go to the school and tell them how to educate the kids and what to teach them? — Sir2u

Yes, I do. I took my kids out of school for a whole year, appointed an (excellent) Filipina tutor for their English instead. Next, we travelled all together around SE Asia for the whole year. The result is that my kids are now fluent in English while their current classmates are absolutely not. So, I simply changed the priorities. — alcontali

Once again you are contradicting yourself. First you say that you can tell the schools what to do, then you say that you had to take your kids out of school to do what you wanted to do with them. Make up your mind.

Saddling an entire generation with usury-infested student-loan debt? Wow. Do you want a revolution, or yet another insurgency, or what?

By the way, saddling someone with usury-infested loans is not the same as giving that person "help".

In that case, you are not helping the student. Instead, you will be helping the banksters that will originate these loans and who will make endless amounts of money from charging usury on them. You will also be helping the universities who will be able to pay million-dollar salary to their principal and faculty deans. The students? Not so much. With their worthless degree they will, more likely than not, end up in a dead-end part-time job slinging coffees at Starbucks. — alcontali

Once again you are you are failing to answer a simple question. If you don't have an answer it would be easier to say so instead of repeating yourself with non answers I do not want.

You really do not seem to understand the student loan crisis, do you? — alcontali

Apart from the fact that you have not shown any data to even prove that this crisis exists, I understand it perfectly and I don't care about it. I doubt that anyone put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to take a loan. So it is not my problem.
If you read the article you provided a link to it says that many students are using other methods of obtaining an education, so there are alternative ways if the people were not too lazy to look for and consider other ways to do things. If they are lazy, then they deserve the wrath allah, thor, apollo and anyone else.

You seem to think that your simplistic way of reasoning is solving a problem. No, it is creating problems! — alcontali

Sadly I have not tried to solve the problems of anyone else. I solve my own and those I get paid to solve.

If you want to learn how to solve problems, then study some engineering instead of your liberal-art nonsense. Do something "hard" for a change! As I have told you earlier, your simple minded views do not solve the problem. No, they are the problem! — alcontali

You are certainly a presumptuous little man are you not. If you had asked, or bothered to look at any of my other posts would feel stupid after making this comment.

I have a degree in engineering and design of factories.
I am a qualified welder
I am a qualified plumber
I am a qualified electrician
I am qualified to work on automobile and marine engines and drive systems
I have designed and built several house including the one I live in that survived an earthquake of 7.3

What the fuck have you done with your pompous little life?

I only addressed the question of education. It is not hard to become a worthless idiot of whom the stupidity is certified by a worthless degree along with spectacular student-loan debt. So, the question of education is not necessarily simple. Should children spend their childhood in public-school indoctrination camp and then acquire a worthless degree in a dumb liberal-art subject? Maybe or maybe not. That is certainly debatable. I do not send my children to public-school indoctrination camp. I do not believe that they could ever benefit from that. When I look at that kind of large-scale imbecilization factories, I even wonder why they exist in the first place? — alcontali

Blah, blah, blah.

When are you going to answer the question?

I asked about the predisposition of people against getting an education, are they or are they not predisposed to avoid getting an education.

But what exactly is knowledge? Do we even agree on that matter? Memorizing phone books replete with trivia does not amount to acquiring knowledge. On the contrary, that is utmost worthless. Furthermore, not even one of the culturally-Marxist beliefs that children learn in public-school indoctrination camps can be considered justified in epistemological terms. Again, all of that is worthless, and often even dangerous.

So, what the indoctrination camps teach, is usually not even knowledge. Still, even when the subject matter really is knowledge, I still do not support the practice of memorizing such knowledge databases. As far as I am concerned, either you use the machine, or else you build the machine, because in all other cases, it is you the machine. — alcontali

I did not ask for your opinion of the education system, I asked about the predisposition of people against getting an education.

I pay for the education of my children, but under my terms. — alcontali

No you don't, you pay under the terms of the place you choice to educate your kids. Nowhere do you get to chose anything more than what is being offered by the different school. Think about it, do you really go to the school and tell them how to educate the kids and what to teach them? Of course not, all you do is chose which of the terms being offered you will accept. EXACTLY the same as the people that CHOSE to pay student loans.

I am completely opposed to freebies. As I have said already, I do not want a ministry for the provision of gratis clothes to the populace. For a long list of reasons, too long to enumerate here, clothing should not be free of charge. The same is true for education and healthcare. I simply do not share that kind of culturally Marxist beliefs. — alcontali

Again, I did not ask for your opinion of of political systems, I asked how many islamic countries have free educational systems. I will make it easier for you. How many islamic countries have college level education systems that anyone can get financial help to study in?

It is Allah's punishment for adopting false, pagan beliefs. If these people refuse to accept the truth, then they will still have to accept all consequences of doing so. Unfortunately, it is the very same people who engage in irresponsible behaviour who will later on demand that other, more responsible people bail them out. I can almost guarantee that these born idiots will not even pay off their student loans. They will again want freebies instead. I utterly despise these irresponsible freebie retards. — alcontali

So, let's look at an imaginary scenario and try to put your way of thinking in context.
I am too poor to pay for my smart kid's education.
He has a dream of becoming a physicist and then going on to work to build cleaner energy systems and help make the world a better place.
The government offers him a loan so that fulfill his dream.
So allah will punish him for not accepting the truth that he is too poor to study and indulging in irresponsible behavior?
And then someone like you automatically labels him a born idiot that only wants to leech off the responsible people like you that are lucky enough to have enough money to pay for their kids.

I would like to see the statistics that you have used to decide that people that use student loans are all born idiots and never pay back the money, could you please supply a link to that information.

You see, their views are totally contrary to mine. As a man, I do not just pay for myself. I also pay for wife, children, subsidies and allowances to extended family, and charity to neighbours in the wider community. — alcontali

So because their views are contrary to yours they have to be wrong. Why do you give charity to the community, is that the same as the freebies you so despise? You don't you insist on them paying their own way just like you do?
Saying that there should be no freebies for anyone then giving to charities makes you a hypocrite.

I cannot imagine seeking to ask for freebies from other men. The idea alone is horrifying to me. Other men don't owe me anything. I simply do not want to live in a country with that kind of freebie mentality. — alcontali

It is obvious that you have never been and I sincerely hope that you never become poor.
Because as a poor person you will usually have only 2 options;
1. learn to beg, borrow and steal to get what you need.
2. Die a sad death.

I don't usually stoop to these levels of argument but I think the question is valid here.

If, as you say, allah provides for all that follow his rules, then why are there sooooo many hungry muslims?
Could it be that they were/are all born idiots.

Would that not depend on what you plan to study?

I almost forgot to mention this, here is the website of the author you mentioned.

http://assholeconsulting.com/bio/

Very convincing isn't it. :chin: :worry:

Edit: Sorry EricH this was sent as a reply to the wrong person.

I have picked just one of your simplistic alarming phrases. — alcontali

You can pick all of the phrases you want, but answer the question I asked. So far you have not answered a single question of mine, you always sidestep them.

I have no interest in what the corporate, religious or even ethnic teachings and preachings are trying to do to the masses.
I asked about the predisposition of people against getting an education, are they or are they not predisposed to avoid getting an education. And to make sure it is clear what I am asking let us define education as any form of gaining knowledge.

If people are not predisposed towards avoiding an education, why should they not be asked to pay for it?

I am not interested in how they pay for it, that is their personal choice. If they are willing to accept a loan and get a worthless degree because they are too lazy to do the math beforehand or to find something better, that is their problem.
Comparing government loans to loan sharks might be correct, but no one forces anyone to take the money. They are free to do as many of us did and get a job to pay for their education. I worked for several years in the municipal garbage collection department to pay for mine.

How many islamic countries have free educational systems for their inhabitants?

Maybe we should discuss something like Aaron Clarey's book, "Worthless" first: — alcontali

Maybe I would discuss it with you if you have read it, but because you posted an Amazon review instead of your own thoughts on the book I doubt that you have much to say. I read the book several years ago and was not all that impressed with it. "The curse of a high IQ" was better.

Someone with a worthless degree is not just an idiot. That person is even a certifiable and certified idiot, and has his/her worthless degree, along with the balance statement on outstanding student loan debt, to prove that very fact. Look. There it is: The official certificates of stupidity testifying to the retardedness of their holder, the king or queen of idiots. — alcontali

I agree, there are a lot of people with useless degrees out there and no job. But who's fault is it? As you say, they were stupid enough to fall for the lies.
OK, so how many companies can you name that are hiring personnel in management and upward level jobs that are not asking for college degrees? Note that I am not asking for the jobs and companies that people invent for themselves, but for the jobs that people look for to pay their bills, buy a house, improve their level of living, and maybe have a health/retirement fund attached to it.

Contact with twins? Are you suggesting we rely on arguments from anecdote now? — Artemis

No, I am asking you to clarify why you think that you are right and that I am wrong just because of one article that you read. On what do you base your certainty? The article was not even a scientific report, but one of many news articles that contain parts of a report. And there are other reports that show that environment does make quite a bit of difference.

Once and for all, stick to any objectively verifiable data you can present and argue with me on those same grounds. I'm not going to discuss my own person with you. Take it or leave it. — Artemis

So let's look at all of the object verifiable data then. I think that if you read more you will find that science does not have enough verifiable data to be able to say exactly why people are like they are. If they did there would be lots of things in the news about it, the biggest discovery of the century type of stuff.

I don't want to discuss your person with you, I just would like to know if you are qualified to state what your are stating. Which is quite apparent you are not as the only thing that I can imagine about you is that you have some sort of infatuation about twins. How is Apollo by the way?

So if you do not want to explain how you are able to assert the "facts" you give I have no reason to believe you, I would like to see the evidence about your knowledge. Take it or leave it.

When did I ever mock your qualifications??? — Artemis

I explain that by it not being a controlled study and just your observational anecdote. — Artemis

Reasonable, but spending 5 years teaching them gave me a lot of insight. I probably knew them better than any of the researchers knew their subjects. — Sir2u

Seems to me odd to insist your five years of observing a couple of twins are worth more in information than the research I've presented. Seems more like you just don't like the results because they don't jive with your position. — Artemis

Apart from your name, "Artemis", exactly what contact have you had with twins? That is why I asked if you have any professional qualifications. It seems odd to me that some should be so insistent that they are right without being able to do more that point to an article(that has lots of counter opinions) as qualification of their point of view.

The self-evident part was in reference to the mechanism twin studies are supposed to to suggest similarities arise. It seemed/still seems odd to me that you wouldn't realize the mechanism is genetic makeup. — Artemis

Just because something is "supposed to " do something does not make it "self-evident" that it actually does.

The article you quote doesn't really contradict my position. It just suggests that nurture is also a factor (remember that under "nurture" falls all environmental influences an individual encounters). — Artemis

I have never contradicted your point of view either, all I said was that I was not sure how much of one or the other actually makes you what you are. The article I linked explained quite clearly that the difference between the twins were likely caused by difference in the environment causing changed to the DNA. Which would mean that while genetics plays a big part, genetics is affected by the environments in which the people live.

Twin studies have shown that even adopted into different families, people with the exact same genes have similar life outcomes and life satisfaction rates: — Artemis

It's why you can have on one hand people with all sorts of problems and issues pull off amazing feats overcoming their circumstances, and then other really objectively fortunate people just fall into despair and throw their lives away. There's some kind of internal drive that some people have and others lack that makes the difference.

For those people, I think there needs to be something, somewhere they can turn to. — Artemis

First you say that genes are the principal controller of behavior but you think that they might need guidance when their behavior changes. Are there not genes that make people predisposed to those changes? Or are the changes caused by environment overriding the genes? So would joining a church group be make it possible to change what is genetic?

Science still does not know it all, so how can you say that it is obvious?

In Islam, the idea is that we proclaim our religiosity on grounds of our fitrah, i.e. our natural predisposition. — alcontali

And if the people are not naturally predisposed they beat the hell out of them until they are.
How can a human being be naturally predisposed to be wrapped up in a hot bag in a place known for its high temperatures? How can a human being be naturally predisposed to be sub-servant to another just because of their gender. How can human beings be naturally predisposed to never want an education. How can a human being be naturally predisposed to be poor all of their lives.

Has anyone asked the people what they want? Of course not, because they know that some people that are not scared of being beaten for disobedience will tell the truth. The rest will say what they are supposed to because of the fear of the powers that be. And no really believes that it is the politicians forcing the religion to do these, it is the religions that rule the governments.

That's Ma'am2U, thank you very much. — Artemis

My apologizes madame. Not everyone here uses there real gender in their name and avatar.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jun/02/twins-identical-genes-different-health-study

The study you provided a link to was about separated at birth identical twins. Here is one about identical twins that grew up together and have very different personalities. Which according to your "It's not self-evident to you theory" should be impossible. Here is a relevant quote from it.

Such a divergence might seem odd. After all, as identical twins, the pair have exactly the same genes. They are clones of each other. They also had an upbringing that accentuated their similarities. Nature and nurture would appear to have dealt them identical hands. Yet Barbara and Christine have ended up as dissimilar individuals.

Nor are they unusual, says Professor Tim Spector, head of twin research at King's College, London. Barbara and Christine, who enlisted with the college's twin studies unit several years ago, are like many identical twins. In some ways, they are very, very alike, in looks, for example. But in other ways, they are noticeably dissimilar – and that is far harder to explain. "We see it in so many different ways," says Spector. "For example, our research has shown that twins rarely die of the same disease. Yet they share many other features, such as height. It is not a straightforward business."
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It sounds baffling. After all, identical twins have the same genes, share the same womb and usually experience the same childhoods. "Most of the twins recruited to our study went to the same school and lived together, eating the same food for the first 18 or so years of their lives," says Spector, whose pioneering study celebrates its 21st birthday next month. "But the outcomes of their lives are often very different indeed."

I usually make it a habit to try and read various points of view, hence my "but no real explanation of why" comment.

Critique the argument as is, or don't. But don't start these juvenile snarks about my qualifications or expertise. — Artemis

That seems to imply that there is a double standard of some sort operating in your thinking process. You are allowed to mock my qualifications, but I am not allowed to even ask about yours. Why is that?

That's not just bad philosophy, it's bad interpersonal skills. — Artemis

Practice what you preach.

I remember when I read these years ago(many). Maybe they had some effect on me. :smile:

By leading a congregation of believers in prayer, the imam is simply too visible and too much of a public figure. That is why you could get him into serious trouble by asking him to honestly answer sensitive questions. In fact, many will simply try to avoid giving an answer. At the same time, the overwhelming majority of ulema (=scholars) are not public figures. They are not an easy target for intimidation attempts and therefore it is much easier for them to say what they want. — alcontali

Is this what the perfect society looks like?

The god of these people lets their servants, the rulers of their nations, be tyrants over their brother believers. Sounds just like the other religions to me.

I explain that by it not being a controlled study and just your observational anecdote. — Artemis

Reasonable, but spending 5 years teaching them gave me a lot of insight. I probably knew them better than any of the researchers knew their subjects.

Leave the snark. — Artemis

Not being snarky, that is your perception of what I said.

As I've repeatedly said, nurture is a factor. It's just not as great of one as you seem to assume. — Artemis

So you have read a few articles that say something like that and you are suddenly an expert. Tell me sir, what are your personal qualifications in the area of genetics? How many years have you been studying the topic.

And where exactly did I state how much of a factor I think nurture is?

It's not self-evident to you? — Artemis

No.

Your brain structure is determined by your genes, your brain structure determines your personality, your personality is the key to everything that is in your power to find happiness. — Artemis

I am a teacher, and have had the luck to have taught seven different pairs of identical twins and several fraternal twins that have never been separated. Only one of the sets had similar, not identical personalities. How do you explain that?

If you knew anything about brain structure you would know that it changes during your life. The changes are based on many things that happen to you, your diet and the amount of exercise you do can influence the development of the brain. So no, it is not all genetic. If that were so then they would always look identical as well.
https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/bioscience/10-things-that-change-your-brain/

I agree for organized clergy. They are as much under control of the corporate oligarchy as for example doctors. So, yes, beware of mouthpieces of the powers that be. — alcontali

The role of an imam, who leads the congregation in worship at a mosque, is very public and very visible, and therefore often under quite a bit of political pressure. He can often not speak freely without risking reprisals from secular authorities. Therefore, it is preferable not to burden an imam at the mosque with jurisprudential questions but to direct such questions to independent scholars ("mufti"), who are much less visible, and who can syntactically derive written advisories from scripture much more freely. — alcontali

So the imans are mouthpieces of the powers that be? He can only say what the government lets him.

Nurture is a factor, but probably not as great of one as people like to think. Twin studies have shown that even adopted into different families, people with the exact same genes have similar life outcomes and life satisfaction rates: — Artemis

Yes the twin studies are fascinating I have read quite a few over the years. But is it really possible for a person to be genetically programmed to wear the same sweaters, have the same type of dog, marry a person with the same name or looks? There are lots of examples of twins being so alike even after being brought up in different countries, but no real explanation of why.

One of the articles I read years ago looked at the tastes in food of the twins. It was found that those that lived in different parts of the world from each other often had favorite dishes that while not containing the same ingredients the chemical content was very similar in a lot of the cases. They came to the conclusion that there was a strong possibility that the bodies being Identical had the same needs and that was probably the reason why they like the same food. The report mentioned a case were two older brothers went to visit each other and found a new favorite food, that of their brother. I never looked for the second part of that report, after they had done the experiments and research they had planned, it should be interesting.

A 1986 study that was part of the larger Minnesota study found that genetics plays a larger role on personality than previously thought. Environment affected personality when twins were raised apart, but not when they were raised together, the study suggested.

Other studies found a strong genetic influence on dental or gum health. That research helped to show that gum disease isn't just caused by bacteria, it also has a genetic component, Segal said.

Another study found that happiness and well-being had a 50 percent genetic influence.

Gum health is easier to understand, identical bodies would have the same resistance or propensity to germs and viruses.

Happiness and well being are not that easy. It seems silly to think of people having or not having happiness genes, or more or less of them. It would make more sense to say that because they are healthier, they live a happier life. But life is not just about health is it? Would it be possible to have a gene that makes you less worried about everyday problems such as bills and work? Or do you just learn to live with it. :chin:

For example, North American society advocates taking out interest-carrying student loans. In Islamic morality, that amounts to encouraging bad behaviour. — alcontali

In what way is it counted as bad behavior? I don't see the bad part of getting an education by paying for it. In the islamic countries, do they pay for the people to get the education they want or do the people that have no money nor loans lose out on education?

Muslim scholars have extended the example of coitus interruptus, by analogy, to declaring permissible other forms of contraception, subject to three conditions.[25]
(1) As offspring are the right of both the husband and the wife, the birth control method should be used with both parties' consent.
(2) The method should not cause permanent sterility.[25]
(3) The method should not otherwise harm the body. — Wikipedia on birth control in Islam

The other religions are good at adapting, twisting or corrupting the holy words to suit their benefits. Does it not seem contradictory that these people are saying that children are the gifts of the god, but you are allowed to be impolite and reject the gift.

The term "marriage" in Islam refers to a contractual arrangement with the terms and conditions as specified in Islamic law. Signing up to T&C that are materially different from the ones specified by Islamic law can rarely be justified. The believer would need very, very good reasons to do that.For the believer, sex can only take place within the framework of legitimacy specified by Islamic law. — alcontali

So why are there so many cases of sex out of wedlock. If, as you said, looking after the body is of prime importance to islam, how could something as basic as sex be considered bad?

If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things. — Quran 4:34-35

The same question applies here as with the other gods, if he is so great why cannot he fix the causes of the problems so that they do not happen. If he made women and they are dis-obedient, why did he just make them as servants that have no other use from the beginning.

There is no Church in Islam. Advice on matters of morality is best obtained from independent religious scholars ("mufti") in written form. It is perfectly ok and even recommended to go "mufti shopping" and compare advice from different scholars prior to reaching a conclusion on a jurisprudential matter. — alcontali

Lots of other people do that as well, shop around until they find a church, priest, pastor that suits their taste. But this also begs the same question as for the other religions; if the priest, pastor and mufti are all guided by allah or god, how could they possible give different advise?
And the whole world has seem how the people are treated by these people, people being beaten, flogged, and stoned to death.

For those people, I think there needs to be something, somewhere they can turn to. — Artemis

There are too many people who's lives clearly lack independent, internal meaning for that to be a major misconception. — Artemis

I think that the problem is more of a growing up thing than a hardwired problem. When I grew up we were told that you have to be responsible for yourself, that you have to learn and do whatever is needed to be able to get ahead in life. And we were taught that we do not get ahead by stepping on others to do so.
More and more parents are abdicating their duties and letting the internet and forcing the teachers to do the up-bring of their kids. Who knows what tomorrows kids will be like or how they are going to survive.

Personally I think that people today are being trained to be useless so that big brother can take over.

Atheists need to find meaning in a meaningless universe, so sometimes it helps to have an institution to represent all that. — Artemis

I have never needed to find a meaning to life, because I have always known it.
People tend to over dramatize such things and insist that humans are different from other animals and therefore must have a purpose for living, all the while overlooking the obvious.

The only purpose in life is to live it to its fullest. To get as much as possible out of it while you can.
go places, meet people, eat different food and drink new wines, learn as much as you can about as many things as you can.
To sum it up, experience as many things as is possible and try to be happy while making as many others happy as is possible. I have no intentions of waiting for the next life to start enjoying myself when i can do it perfectly well here and now.

Modern society is very much at odds with religion. It advocates behaviour that is contrary to religion. — alcontali

I doubt that any society advocates bad behavior, they do permit it though.

If modern society says one thing and religion says another on the morality of behaviour, then you can safely assume that religion is right while modern society is depraved, wrong, and even dangerous. — alcontali

So the church when the church says that you cannot use birth control because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

So the church when the church says that you cannot have sex outside of marriage(even though they do) because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

So the church when the church says that you cannot separate from your spouse that is beating you because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

Don't think so.

All institutions of modern society are now totally corrupt: public-school indoctrination camp, mass media, politics, medicine, organized clergy, workplaces, corporations, and so on. — alcontali

Does the "and so on" include churches and religions? Don't answer, it was a rhetorical question.

Do you seriously think that this is a problem that has just popped up in the last few years? The only difference between today and 2 thousand years ago is the technology that helps to spread the ideas.

They all advocate horrible depravities. They cannot be trusted in any way. — alcontali

Could you give us some examples of this? I still cannot get my head around this advocating depravities thing. I have not heard anything about the college of medicine in any country advocating any depravities. But maybe we different definitions of depravities.

In my opinion, concerning morality, all other sources besides religious scriptures are entirely corrupt and depraved. So, yes, amidst this cesspool of corruption, you need the scriptures as a reminder about the truth on morality. — alcontali

But if the leaders of the religions do not practice what they preach, why should anyone follow their lead.

But given the state of our planet, with overconsumption of resources especially our food, and we are limited in our abilities to manufacture it on our farms, combined with climate change, too many children is God's curse on us and he delights in our suffering! — Michael Lee

But the holy brothers keep on getting the holy sisters pregnant, because that is what a god said they should does. Most of the atheist I know don't have more than one or two kids, how many catholic families can you say that about. Most other religions still believe it is the place of the woman to stay at home raising they kids. Luckily the women seem to be getting smarter and are refusing to accept this status in life.

So it would appear, but she sure has balls.

It is similar to avoiding the death penalty on earth by not overly misbehaving. How many people end up on death row each year? Not that many either. — alcontali

Death row and religion of any sort should not be mixed up like that.

The point I'm trying to make is that people can act in a "religious" or "fanatical" way about things even if they aren't traditionally what is defined or perceived as a "religion". — IvoryBlackBishop

Religious,
Concerned with sacred matters, religion or the church
Having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity
Of or relating to clergy bound by monastic vows
Extremely scrupulous and conscientious

Fanatical
Marked by excessive enthusiasm for and intense devotion to a cause or idea

Dingo already said the first part of my answer.

Trump supporters or other rabid follower of any group or person are nor generally counted as religious, fanatical and rabid yes, but not religious.

I guess that the first red pill to take concerning "a good education" is Aaron Clarey's notorious book "Worthless". — alcontali

Does education mean only going to school? I am a teacher and even I know that most schools and universities are as useless a hell at preparing kids for their future. Education to me means being prepared for life, not going to school.

The meta red pill is to understand that almost everything you believe is a manipulative and deceptive lie that does not serve your own interests but the ones of the corporate oligarchy. — alcontali

Does this apply to religions as well? I guess it must because most religions are nothing more than money making corporations.

Even the evil, anti-biological, crappy food -- worthless calories -- that you buy from Walmart is purposely designed to make you sick. Without expensive corporate health insurance you are not supposed to survive for too long the onslaught on your body of worthless processed food surreptitiously laced with sickening high-fructose corn syrup. — alcontali

I live in a backward, third world country, so this does not really apply too much yet.

According to Rollo Tomassi, somehow still a Catholic, it is the Church that has become the worst scam of all: — alcontali

I agree, but that is about the religion, the church, not about the people. Just like every other religion there are good and bad people in it. As a muslim you should understand that the bad part of the religion is the one that out shines all of the good that exists in it.

The core red-pill message is:
All of society's institutions are now highly corrupt and try to manipulate you with their deceptive lies. If you don't fight back, you will simply start believing these lies and become very unhappy, if these dangerous lies do not kill end up killing you first. — alcontali

Why do I or my kids need a religion to tell me what are lies and what is truth?

alcontali is a Muslim and I am a believer in Christ. We get along just fine. — Noah Te Stroete

I am an atheist and I work in a catholic school. :gasp: I have friends that are mormons, jehovas witnesses, hindu, and even a witch. And I get along with everyone.

As I said, I don't give a shit about religion. As long as the person is nice and does not try to convince me they are right.

Can I choose any religion for me & my children? — EricH

Sorry mate, but for them to be happy you have to sign up with theirs. :cool:

My kids will believe that they can make it out of their predicament. They will have faith. — alcontali

My kids will believe that they can make it out of their predicament. Because they will have an education

The future looks bright because God takes care of us. That is why their plans will succeed. — alcontali

The future looks bright because they know how to take care of themselves. That is why their plans will succeed.

That is why it is worth struggling and fighting no matter how difficult things may become. Things will work out just fine. Do your part and God will take care of the rest. — alcontali

That is why it is worth struggling and fighting to get a good education no matter how difficult things may become. Things will work out just fine. Do your part and you will be capable of taking care whatever comes your way.

Why is your way of saying things better than mine? Why would anyone want to risk their well being on something that has no evidence of existence?

As an example, if you want to use a stereotypical "rabid Trump supporter" as an example, they may not literally believe Trump is a "God", however they may refuse to say anything negative about him whatsoever, and treat any criticism even if constructive as a 'personal attack' or insult.

(The same may be true of rabid 'supporters' of any person, cause, idea, but I'm using Trump as this example). — IvoryBlackBishop

What the hell has this got to do with what I said? I have no idea what the connection is!

So by "faith", It has to involve belief specifically in a "God"?

Belief in any other prime truth or axiom held to be absolute doesn't qualify? — IvoryBlackBishop

Did you not read what I wrote?

I said that I used faith in a specific context in which it has a specific definition. The rest of the definitions of faith have their places and uses, but not in the context I used it.

As far as "faith", that's another term that often never gets consistently defined — IvoryBlackBishop

Some definitions are fixed by the context in which they are used. A scientist might have faith that a cure for cancer will be found, but that is not the context in which I used it.

I agree, my argument is just that it's a modern example of people acting or thinking in quasi-"religious" way. — IvoryBlackBishop

Nothing even quasi religious about it. Worship and faith, large parts of religion, are totally absent.

Or as far as modern example, "scientism" is probably the most popular. — IvoryBlackBishop

Scientism is neither a religion nor a system of government, it is a way of thinking and living.

I don't agree with that assessment but to each their own. — IvoryBlackBishop

But please tell me where I am wrong.

Are you an anarchist? — IvoryBlackBishop

:lol: :rofl: :cry: I am I don't give a shitist.

What is your ideal form of government. — IvoryBlackBishop

I really cannot say that any of the world's governments and political systems really attract me. Most of them are screwed up versions of what they proclaim to be.

I am a dreamer and I believe that a good system would be one that provides people with what they have earned and deserve. But that does not exist and probably never will.

That's a tricky subject, however I would contest that modern systems of law and government are predicated on certain "religious" or moral axioms, such as the golden rule, and that religious systems played a role in the development of modern ones. — IvoryBlackBishop

It would make more sense to say that religions sprang from men trying to impose laws upon others and failing. So they started to say(invent) that there was a higher power that they represented to scare the people into following the rules.

Tricky subject, but I assume you mean the Justices aren't held to be "infallible" or have a "god-appointed status", akin to a medieval pope or monarch? — IvoryBlackBishop

Why is everything a "tricky subject"? Yes I mean just that. Bosses and leaders have been around a lot longer that religions based on an unseen, all knowing, all powerful god.