Comments

  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    I have no problem, you have agreed with all the premises and the conclusion

    If you have an issue with the difference between a position based on reason, and reasonable. Do some work, state your position clearly and make an argument.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    happy to, make an argument please that theism is unreasonable.
  • Abortion and premature state of life
    The essay seems to have weight even beyond this seeming fatal flaw - that's why I'll read it. But if this is Don Marquis, then what was the other article?tim wood

    You are missing what the assumption is. It is not an assumption about the nature of the fetus itself. Just that the whether or not abortion is morally permissible is a function of the nature of the fetus. Either the fetus is such a thing that would make abortion immoral, or if the fetus is such a think that would not make abortion immoral
  • Abortion and premature state of life
    the first one I grabbed in the search. Said by don marquis in the title. Mea culpa- I am familiar with the argument was just looking for a link to share , grabbed the wrong one
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.

    Conclusion:

    Therefore theism as defined, is not in direct conflict with scientific fact. Theism, as defined is not in
    direct conflict with reason, since by reason alone there are positions both for an against.

    Accept?
  • Abortion and premature state of life
    are you familiar with prof marquis argument?

    I can summarize it quickly if you are not.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    would you like to accept as true the rest of the propositions and get right to the conclusion?
  • What is true
    agree in total, the history of the scientific method is a long line error assumed correct until superseded, This also may be its highest praise that when shown false it easily lets go of the false belief. As a fact finding process, for those things that can be identified as fact, or so near fact as to be accepted as such, it has proved to be useful.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    p4. The arguments in P3 have counter arguments based on reason

    Agree
  • Abortion and premature state of life
    read it all, we are on the same team. He is just outlining the case he will argue against.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    thank you assume now P1 and p 2 are agreed

    p3. There are arguments – based on reason – that God does not exist

    Agree?
  • Abortion and premature state of life
    epic, small aside Are you familiar with Don Marquis argument on future of value? Below if not.

    http://web.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readings/160/marquis.html
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    Ah yes, I remember how it is. You want me to do all the work. I've already provided the criticism.[/

    Ok I will do some work, let's do this one at a time. Please answer directly, do you agree or not, and if not why.
    S
    P1. There exist such things as Theists – defined as human beings who believe in some form of supernatural being or entity - for this argument we will label as “God”Rank Amateur
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    I don't accept it as true, no. Why wouldn't whether or not some form of supernatural being or entity be a factual matter whereby the scientific method is relevant and applicable?S

    Because if it was a scientific fact, it would then defeat my conclusion, if it was scientific fact that God is not, my theism is unreasonable. But now your challenge to P2 is, it doesn't matter? Or that it is not true?

    Can I get a direct answer to a direct question please, is the new P2 true? The existence or non existence of God is not a scientific fact.

    Direct answers make this go much faster.
  • What is true
    I don't need a method to know I have a headache.Banno

    How do I know it is true you have a headache? how do you make your truth, my truth?
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    And I stand by my criticism as a whole. That was just a part. Resolving one part doesn't get you out of the water.S

    Don't remember your other specific objections. Happy to address them if you wish to restate and continue

    An error's an error. A good argument should contain premises which can be clearly understood. Your meaning wasn't made clear until many pages later. You're responsible

    Agree - mean culpa, do you now accept the new P2?
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    Changes nothing of substance in the argument, I am a pragmatist. Has exactly the same meaning at the former P2 and P3 combined.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    ok, omit P2 and P3, and add a new P2: the existence of God, (as defined in P1) is not a matter of scientific fact.

    Now you can go look for another semantic argument if you wish, because you have yet to make a meaningful one.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    if you would like, you can make a supernatural description of something you call an Easter bunny, and depending on how you describe its actions or capabilities I may have to allow it as outside fact, and in the realm of reason. But it would have nothing at all to do with what we scientifically know as bunnies or their capabilities.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    So in other words, the idea is that given that you're okay saying it's a fact that there's no x on an absence of evidence of it even when the idea of an x is coherent (for example, the Easter bunny), it's even stronger to say that there's no x on an absence of evidence when the idea of the x isn't coherent (as with gods).Terrapin Station

    no I am saying there IS EVIDENCE, scientific evidence, that we know what bunnies are. I am also saying there is scientific evidence that we know the capabilities of bunnies. I am saying as fact that there is scientific evidence that the ability to fill Easter baskets around the world on Easter is outside these capabilities. therefor no Easter bunny.

    This is not the no-seeum argument you were making before - there is lots of empirical evidence about such things as we call bunnies, and their capabilities. Wouldn't you agree?
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    .and theism isn’t so defined anywhere in the list of premisesMww

    it was in P1 I believe - it was defined as a belief in a supernatural entity

    In hindsight I would have been better of just having a proposition that the existence of God is not a fact. instead of P2 - P3 -

    I’m a serious reductionist. For me, defining what a “fact” is, even to qualify its limits, doesn’t say anything about the altogether tentative nature of human knowledge which are also generally the same limits placed on the “facts”. Something is needed to prevent falsification of the premise because it lacks the conditions of time.Mww

    agree - would be happy to amend it to our existing knowledge at this time.

    thanks the help - watch your fingers
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    but let us please please get back on track - i am being very generous in entertain all these diversions.

    you contest P3 - " it is not a fact that god is not" -

    there is only one way and one way only to contest that point - make a case that it IS A FACT that God is not. So far you have made one case, which i believe I have countered effectively. Please note there is no burden on me on this proposition to prove that it is a fact that God is, that is not the proposition.

    await your back on track - or concede the point please
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    But with the Easter bunny notion, that's not even incoherent. There's just no evidence for it. So it doesn't seem consistent for you to not say that it's not a fact, there's just no empirical evidence for it--until there is.Terrapin Station

    no - as I said it is a fact that such things as bunnies exist, it is a fact we know the capabilities of these things we call bunnies, it is a fact that the these capabilities do not include filling baskets around the world on Easter Sunday.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    Sure. So you wouldn't say that it's a fact that there's no easter bunny, for example?Terrapin Station

    i would say if we can agree on what a bunny is - and not go off into some definition argument
    and we can say we know something factual about the capabilities of such bunnies
    I would say it is a fact that there is no such bunny that flies around the world filling baskets in houses
    around the world on Easter Sunday
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    please now sum up where we are on your objections to my argument

    on P3 - what is your current objection, and its basis
    onP,4-7 I think you have already allowed - but I am not sure

    where those your only objections ?

    really would like to stay in the framework of the argument if we can
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    I already responded to this. Do you withhold judgment on everything conceivable that there's no empirical evidence for, no matter how crazy the idea is?Terrapin Station

    I would say the only thing factual that can be said on the lack of empirical evidence, is that it is a lack or empirical evidence.

    there is however almost limitless empirical evidence of things that there was no empirical evidence for, until there was.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    I’m suggesting it cannot be expected that one formal instance of understanding transfers unequivocably to separated propositions. In this case, the proposition constructed with a compounded subject and its predicate is an analytic true statement, whereas the separated propositions both require a formal synthesis in order to even be possibly true. Thus, the same understanding cannot justify all three at the same time.Mww

    I agree completely with that statement

    I’m saying you threw a metaphysical monkey wrench into an otherwise respectable dialectic by forcing a co-conversant to argue from an irrational position.Mww

    If you go back to the beginning I never propositioned all 3 - all three were thrown in by those trying to argue against my 2 propositions.

    If you can somehow help us out of the morass about what is or is not fact i would welcome your view.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    Right. So one reason that we know that it's a fact that there is no god is that there's no empirical evidence at all that there is a god. Now, you'd say that's not a reason, it's simply a "declarative statement without support."

    So that means it doesn't meet some criterion you have for a sentence, Q, to count as a reason for or to count as support of another sentence, P. We need to figure out what your criteria are.
    Terrapin Station

    No - that was a argument - if you remember way back to the first time - my argument back was - the lack of empirical evidence is a very good reasonable argument that god does not exist. It does not however make it a fact. As an example - there was no empirical evidence at one time for the atom - until there was.

    next
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.


    second aside - I have no clue what so ever is so hard about an acknowledgement that there is no knowledge that we can elevate to fact to say that God is or God is not. That it is not in the realm of science - it is a matter of philosophy of reason - not fact - no clue why that has generated such argument.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.


    wait - take that back - you have supplied one - - no empirical evidence - which i addressed, that is how it works.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    That would imply that you have criteria for what counts as reasons.Terrapin Station

    supply just one and I will let you know.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    Right--I can't imagine why you'd not say that in response to anything I'd say, because I have no idea what your criteria are to count as support rather than counting as a declarative statement without support.Terrapin Station

    because you have yet to supply any reason whatsoever behind you statement - i even tried to do it for you on the last one. You need to support your statements or they are just opinion

    my P3 stands - It is not a fact that God is not - until you can make a reasoned argument that it is a matter of fact that god is not - this is how argument works.

    do you have a complete and reasoned argument against P3 - if not allow it
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.


    maybe easier if i make this point about unicorns.

    P1 - it is not a matter of fact that unicorns exist on earth
    P2 - it is not a matter of fact that unicorns to not exist on earth

    while i imagine both you and i would agree the arguments overwhelmingly support the belief that unicorns do not exist - it is still possible in some jungle somewhere yet to be looked at there is a unicorn there.

    the argument there are no unicorns if reasonable - but it is not a fact.
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    But then I explained that facts are not something "elevated." Facts are states of affairs, and the state of affairs that's apparent in the world is that there is no God.Terrapin Station

    because - - - - - --

    that is just one more declarative statement without support -

    what i imagine you are saying here is a noseeum argument - " i have looked around and I don't see God - god is not " this is a reason based argument - it may be a reasonable argument that God does not exist - but certainly does not support a conclusion that as a matter of fact god does not exist. For your point to do that you would have to argue that you are aware of all the possible states of affairs in the universe, you have examined all of them, and there is no God .
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    What would be the requirements for me supporting a declarative statement I'm making?Terrapin Station

    to recap
    you challenge P3 - due to lack of empirical evidence
    I challenge that lack of empirical evidence does not elevate to fact
    you challenge back - it is ridiculous nonsense ( without support)
    I ask for support
    you come back with it is incoherent - without support
    I ask for support
    you ask me what is support

    not sure what exactly is so hard about saying I dont agree because - - - - -

    you just keep leaving off the because part

    it is ridiculous nonsense because - - - - -
    it is incoherent because - - - - -

    without the because it is just opinion -
  • If there was an objective meaning of life.
    What are the criteria for support in your view?Terrapin Station

    if your talking about my argument - not sure how much clearer it could be they a labeled as propositions.