My own needs are, to me, more important than your needs, even though were both human. Insofar as your human form allows you to reciprocate my behavior toward you (and insofar as that allows us to cooperate), I elevate my consideration of other humans above my consideration of lesser creatures for practical reasons. — VagabondSpectre
So to be clear, would you be fine killing mentally disabled people for food, since they cannot reciprocate your behavior (insofar as that allows you both to cooperate) in a practical way? If your answer is no, then the ability to reciprocate the behavior is not the reason you value humans as higher.
The fact is, if you're willing to kill and eat another animal, even if it is the only way to survive, then you've valued your own needs above the needs of the other. — VagabondSpectre
Yes, but we are not in a survival situation as of this point, so that doesn't apply to this discussion. I wanted to know why you are putting "higher importance" on the needs of humans, but not on the needs of non-human animals (such as pigs, goats, sheep, cows, chickens, etc...)?
Surely there is some property in which you are making a distinction between humans and non-human animals. What is that distinction, in which allows humans to live free from torture and/or slaughter, but not non-human animals? — chatterbears
Intelligence. Basically, farm animals are too stupid and ill-equipped to be the masters of their own lives. In fact, unless humans rear and slaughter them on a continuing basis then they cannot live at all, let alone free of suffering; we need their meat to pay for their existence and they're incapable of surviving on their own, therefore it's impossible for them to live without slaughter. The fact that we cannot make moral agreements with animals (they're stupid) often pits us against them, where it's either our suffering or theirs. — VagabondSpectre
So you have given me two justifications as of right now. 1st reciprocation of behavior. 2nd, intelligence level. As stated above with the reciprocation scenario, I will do the same with intelligence. Are you ok slaughtering humans who are of lower intelligence (such as severely mentally disabled people)?
Why do you keep inflicting random digital refuse upon me without lifting a single finger to actually cite the material? (your method of link pasting is not an adequate form of citation, and none of these links adequately or directly address the claim I made) .....None of the articles you "cited" are scientific. One of them might have been peer reviewed, but a list of potentially misleading statistics in a publication for family physicians isn't exactly "scientific". It reads like an editorial... — VagabondSpectre
To respond to everything you wrote about the articles I sent you, I will stop sending you those for now and do further research to find you something more adequate for you. For now, we can stick to the moral arguments.
No you didn't, unless I missed it. Was it, the slaughter of animals allows humans to thrive? Why should we thrive off the suffering/torture/slaughter of another species? Because we have the power to do so? — chatterbears
Yes, the slaughter of animals contributes the the ability of humans to thrive. That's a difference between rape/torture and the slaughter and consumption of animals. — VagabondSpectre
Right now, we are currently in a over-population crisis. For us to thrive, we would need to stop growing as rapidly as we have been. Killing humans off, to lessen the population, would contribute to the ability of humans to thrive. Would you therefore claim that, if something contributes to the ability of humans to thrive, therefore it is good for humans to put into action? Humans are the cause of so much pollution and massive contribution to climate change. Killing us off (to lessen the population) would actually be better for us in the long run, as well as help restore the health of the earth and our living conditions.
Who do you mean by "we"? I know you don't mean all humans because as I've already established without contest, all humans living traditional lifestyles do need to consume meat, and second and third world countries rely on meat and animal products for their food security, so are you only talking about first world countries? — VagabondSpectre
Do you have any research on this? The cheapest ingredients in the world are plant-based. Rice, beans, pasta, fruits, vegetables, etc... To say you have established this fact without contest, is incorrect. I know many countries do rely on animal products to survive, but would you say most countries? I don't think so.
Why are you comparing raising farm animals to the holocaust? If we're being technical, the one advocating an animal holocaust is you. You could have taken the position that factory farming should not be permitted, and we would have agreed, but instead you had to take the position that to raise and then slaughter a farm animal, regardless of how well that animal was treated when it was alive, should not be permitted. By doing so, you've essentially made the statement that the life of any and every farm animal is not worth living, and you propose a final solution in the form of genocide. — VagabondSpectre
Holocaust survivors have compared factory farming to the jewish holocaust. See here:
https://youtu.be/f7dZv43A0g0
Although the treatment of an animal is important, it is even more important to allow them to live when they do not want to die. You'd agree the same goes for humans. You would object to someone killing their 17 year old son or daughter, even if they told you, "But my child was treated amazingly, right before I killed them."
Lastly, the current life of farm animals is not worth living, since they suffer more than they experience pleasure, by a large margin. It wouldn't be considered a genocide to stop raping (force impregnating) cows. Once the mother cows stop being raped, they will stop producing babies. That isn't a genocide, that is a compassion release of a species that we currently have dominion over. We could keep some number of each species (cows, chickens, pigs, etc...) in animal sanctuaries.
It's funny you should mention dogs. You say "holocaust for dogs" but what you meant to say was "is it O.K for us to exploit dogs?", and the answer is yes, because we already do, and have done for thousands of years. But it's not entirely a one-sided relationship; we've used dogs for hunting and protection and companionship for so long that they have evolved into man's best friend. While they protect us from other beasts, we also protect them from injury, disease, starvation, and more. Would I be O.K with farming dogs for meat? It depends on the farm, but I would deem it foolish given how skinny they are. — VagabondSpectre
As you already stated, we have domesticated dogs as pets because it is a mutual friendship. They protect us and we protect them. We don't rape them or make them live in their own feces. We don't cage them up and don't allow them to see sunlight. We don't kill them 1-2 years into their life because we have no use for them anymore. We don't mutilate them without anesthetic. We don't neglect their medical needs and slit their throats prematurely.
I keep to my original question. Would you be ok with a holocaust for dogs? And since they are skinnier, maybe we would need a larger holocaust than our current one we have for other animals. Would you be fine with that?
Would I be O.K with farming severely mentally disable humans for meat? At the outset, I just want to say that this would never be efficient from a thermodynamic perspective (instead of feeding the human-livestock, just feed the human directly) but in some kind of fun-house reality where farming severely mentally disabled people is extremely profitable, I might not actually object. — VagabondSpectre
So you care more about profit than the lives of sentient beings, just to be clear? Especially if it was your child or someone related to you. You'd be okay with giving the mentally-disabled agriculture industry your family member, so they could exploit, torture and kill them for profit?
If you recall, my position is that the justifiability of human meat consumption in general (and in individual cases) exists on a spectrum determined by the severity of need. If it was required for our survival that we farm severely mentally disabled human livestock, how could you or I then object? As our ability to satisfy our spectrum of needs without exploitation grows, so to do out moral obligations to refrain from exploitation, in those respects. — VagabondSpectre
In the same way that animal factory farming isn't required for our survival right now, severely mentally disabled human factory farming wouldn't be required for our survival. I am asking you to swap factory farmed animals with mentally disabled humans. We would treat them exactly the same. We would rape them (force impregnate) with other sperm to ensure another mentally disabled human is born. We would even milk them, and pump more hormones into them to increase milk production. We drink the milk of another species, yet people are grossed out by human breast milk? (lol?)
No matter how many false moral equivalences you draw between animal farming and {insert random atrocity here}, you'll not out-run the thermodynamic bill that must be paid if we are to continue existing. — VagabondSpectre
You can call them false moral equivalences, but they aren't. You think it is an atrocity when a human is involved, but not an animal, or so it seems. The thermodynamic bill will be there regardless of our action, but should we not choose the best action for ourselves and others around us?
If they have adequate land for animal agriculture, they should have adequate land for plant agriculture. It would be the same as me asking you, "Do you think it is moral for growing or developing countries to consume human flesh if they don't have adequate access to the land and funds to go vegan?" — chatterbears
Ahh, see, that's something that someone who knows absolutely nothing about agriculture would say, and also perhaps someone who has not been reading my posts (not just in this thread). — VagabondSpectre
I have been reading your posts, and whether or not I know enough about agriculture is irrelevant. I understand that some crops cannot grow on some types of land, but we could definitely settle this type of thing with time. What I was asking you is something different, which was,
Do you think it is moral for growing or developing countries to consume human flesh if they don't have adequate access to the land and funds to go vegan?" - You didn't address or answer this question.
P.S Are you saying that human cannibalism is worse than non-human animal consumption? — VagabondSpectre
I am not saying one is worse than the other, as they are both immoral. The only time they 'may' become morally acceptable is within a survival situation. But even then, I may still find it immoral to take the life of a human (or non-human animal), to fulfill your own selfish needs. As stated, it may be more understandable and justifiable, but I would still find it immoral on some level.