Comments

  • Leftist forum
    I don't think nuclear fusion can work in earth gravity. — counterpunch
    ?

    You mean H-bombs don't work or what? I assume you mean something else. Nuclear fusion can be done...it just typically uses more energy that it creates, if I have any idea about physics (which might not be so).

    Jackson first achieved fusion when he was 12, just hours before he turned 13 on Jan. 19, 2018. His achievement was affirmed by representatives of the Open Source Fusor Research Consortium on Feb. 2
    a-real-life-young-sheldon-12-year-old-boy-builds-nuclear-fusion-reactor.jpg
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    What is Trump doing with his new found free time? — Benkei

    Yes, he is likely missing those 88 million followers that he had on Twitter. (I guess the 51 people he followed aren't so much missing him)

    Without Twitter, he is missing something:
    DzIw-69V4AA1Mdy.jpg

    Trump is now going to Texas to see his much beloved wall. 400 miles of it. And visit the Alamo. I think after the forced on him talk, which he barely could make through reading from the teleprompter, Trump will get to be back himself tomorrow.

    All he needs is to see his fanatic supporters, and off he goes...
  • Leftist forum
    ↪counterpunch
    I totally agree with your argument on the importance of energy. That is crucial. The most abhorrent and lunatic ideas are those that assume that there are too many people and the solution we have to go back to some time that the person in his or her fantasies thinks is optimal.

    Also I agree with that the solution is higher living standards, as that has and will curb population growth. Also more wealthy people, not those on the brink of starvation, will happily preserve nature. Even if the poorest do understand what is happening, what can you do if you haven't anything else and the immediate problem is how to feed your family today and tomorrow? What has happened now in Asia, would be far more than welcome to happen in Africa.
  • Leftist forum
    In terms of "big picture" stuff we probably agree; if the world had limitless clean energy that everyone could access, our greatest existential threats would be solved. — fdrake
    And when we get fusion reactors to be so efficient that they can compete perfectly against other energy sources, I am certain that there will many of those that are critical of the new technology, distrusting the "science" and being fearful about it's effects. Perhaps that the fusion reactor will explode as a hydrogen bomb. Heck, at least it will cause cancer or something!

    (Besides, think about the bureaucracy and the red tape with all these countries involved:)
    ITER-Manuafacturing-Countries.jpg
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Although to be honest the US is probably a lost cause due to how money is married to politics there to an extent not possible in some of my favourite countries (Nordics, Germany and the Netherlands). — Benkei
    This is the unfortunate bind in the US. Even if a net corporations would have tried to be impartial and would have upheld freedom of speech values, they likely would face even bigger wrath from the DNC and the incoming administration. Some YouTube or Twitter wouldn't be exactly favorites of the democrats if they would have allowed Alex Jones et al. use their platforms right up to last Wednesday. Americans simply don't consider any corporation to be impartial, but twist the narrative to what they want to portray.

    The simple reason is the vitriolic nature of the two-party system. Those favourite countries you mentioned have political systems that, at least for now, have the ability during times of extreme duress (severe terrorist attack, large scale natural disaster etc.) to come together and reach a consensus. Hopefully this won't change.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Anti-terrorism is... bad? — Kenosha Kid

    Yes, for those who see violence and extra-parliamentary action as the key to get things done in a democracy.

    Yet of course anti-terrorism usually doesn't solve the underlying problems, but it can do away with fringe movements that basically have no larger support than a cult would have.

    The real question is if still the legal system prevails. I think one example is the UK and it's "Time of Troubles": when known terrorists can live their life freely, either after their jail sentences or when the authorities cannot represent enough evidence for a conviction. That happened in the UK with the Provisional IRA.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    I think you're right in regards to Weimar. There is an eerie similarity between the treatment of those involved in the protest and those involved in the Reichstag fire. It makes me wonder if Democrats and their GOP enablers are using the "insurrection" conspiracy theory as a pretext to remove civil liberties, particularly against their political opponents. — NOS4A2
    NOS, now you are only showing that Weimar-mentality. You just assume that they will use events as a pretext to remove civil liberties and and attack their opponents. This is the attitude discourse of a conspiracy theorist and a populist.

    Just try to think from another point of view:

    How about the more obvious case: that they (the US political elite) are deeply humiliated just how the US politics now looks to the whole World and demand a stop this. It was their offices that were ransacked. They had to flee from an angry mob. This didn't happen on the West Coast in Portland. And as they don't understand how grave the underlying current of distrust is, they don't see that people will see their response as, well, like you do. But mark my words, the politicians will react. And the distrust will be just reinforced.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    I'm pretty sure that most Trumpers would censor people on the left given the chance. They'd justify it in terms of public safety too. — five G
    I think the Trump crowd accept fringe views because they think that comes with freedom of speach. But yes, they wouldn't allow anyone they consider a public safety issue around (starting from ISIS).

    I must confess that I'm personally a little paranoid about this kind of thing. — five G
    You are totally correct to be paranoid. For starters, ECHELON is (was) of similar age than I am. And I'm not a youngster anymore.

    Actually, it's not inconceivable the FBI will start asking sites like ours for IP addresses. — Baden
    That is totally true. So stick to your Guidelines, Baden. Really.

    Here's the thing with the FBI and others: they actually are not partisan in this and will go and observe ALL possible kind forums, from pro-life to pro-choice, from antifa to the right wing militias and to animal-rights sites or libertarian sites. Pro-Trump sites now? You bet. And a philosophy forum would be a typical place to check, because heck, you have computers and algorithms to do that. It's not that a physical person employed would have to follow the stuff, so the cost isn't so high.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    I support terrorism.

    Long live Zohra Drif.     — Brett

    Well, the way things are going, we might get bomb attacks also in our local cafeterias where you drink your sustainable fair-trade herbal tea and me my cafe latte. But hey, Zohra looked sexy especially in the movie "the Battle for Algiers" (which is a great film about urban terrorism).

    rYwsEYXwJkyR9TNvIajqX-UeLij18-9WN3fHEUuhkwAvs3WUqgJEw1LFQGAu9gcy8vdXE97I6OOFRnCXc87y_kBFq1aJ7J3xXqkB2pWQOqXRUz5KBccfRtR5KBa287rBxAB7

    Or at least you get the government search engines to note that the user "Brett" on the site "Philosophy Forums" says "he supports terrorism" and that is then put to a huge database to be used possibly in the future.
  • Leftist forum
    but if it's annual number of registrations — counterpunch
    It is, cars are registered just once.

    Anyway, as Baden is closing this thread and there might be another better thread to discuss just what to do with the global economy to address climate change, it might be good end with comments more along the lines of this thread.

    One of the basic things for a forum like this is to represent different opinions and that those differences in opinion are discussed on the higher intellectual level than with the typical vitriol and ad hominem attacks, which your average social media discourse descends to. A central question is the role of the government and the role of the markets. Your answer above,
    ↪counterpunch
    , shows obviously that you have thought about the issue, but firmly believe in a top down lead manner for the change to come. I think it is one of the most important arguments that divide the left and the right.

    While I agree as a conservative that markets have their problems and the market mechanism cannot take care of everything in the society (as anarcho-capitalists believe), the mechanism can do a lot and has done a lot. The failure of Soviet style centralized planning shows this, yet one should also remind that the Chinese, who (at least the leadership) firmly believe that they are communists, have done well just by partly using the market mechanism. Yet transformations that basically nobody saw coming in the government and couldn't be planned ahead happen with the free market system. And this is crucial. Economic history has showed so many times that with innovations and new technological breakthroughs that lead to new industries cannot be pre-planned centrally, but are usually done by some eccentric hobbyists at start.
  • Leftist forum
    That is a startling transformation from ...none, to not quite none - and it only took a decade! — counterpunch
    And that's how in reality transformations happen. (Except that electric cars have been around since the time of the combustion engine.) And btw it is a transformation as in Germany annually roughly about 3 million cars are sold. From nothing to every tenth one is a dramatic change, counterpunch.

    Besides, If you look just how long horse drawn wagons and the early cars roamed the streets together, that did take a while. In the US the transformation was very rapid, yet globally it was another thing as personal cars were a luxury for a long time:

    DTB1xcGVwAU7bZG.jpg

    I'd extract carbon from the air before I'd trash 47 million cars, impose massive infrastructure costs on the taxpayer/consumer, add huge energy demand to the national grid, and destabilize fossil fuel geo politics. — counterpunch
    Adding massive costs to the taxpayer/consumer will decrease demand, so where do need the huge energy demand on the national grid?

    And just what do have in mind with destabilizing fossil fuel geopolitics? Start a civil war in Saudi-Arabia and have the US attack Iran and Venezuela?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    The dark side thereof is now on display. — jorndoe

    What is on display is just how the American political system is descending into Weimar style politics as both extremes of the American political spectrum have at last found the street as the perfect place for their extra-parliamentary activity. After Trump's incitement to walk on Capitol Hill to show strength, the loonies will be just more emboldened and more confident that they were right in their claims that the ruling elite is there to get them.

    After this comes likely the real terrorist groups like Europe had in the 1970's and 80's or the "lone nut" activists, who know the best way to be successful is to keep it all in your head.
  • Leftist forum
    We just have to get them to change what kinds of cars and energy they sell. The auto industry is already swinging heavily into hybrid or full electric vehicles. "Oil companies" are already rebranding themselves "energy companies" and investing in alternatives. It's just the smart thing to do, since one way or another oil's days are numbered. — Pfhorrest
    And that happens with consumers choosing electric / fuel cell electric / hybrid vehicles with competition among the car manufacturers driving the costs down of these "alternative" fuel cars.

    That's it. Markets can do something useful.

    (What that transformation actually looks like)
    330px-PEV_Registrations_Germany_2010_2014.png
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    I was trying to think of left-wing anti-Trump lackeys (meaning Biden lackeys?) that were comparable to Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Judge Jeanine, Shapiro, Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, etc. and came up with a video from The Young Turks. — praxis

    Good example. I remember Dave Rubin was part of the TYT team and then left them. Of course now Rubin went all in with Trump and sided with the election fraud argument, which just tells how difficult it is for these political commentators not to slide down the slippery slope themselves.

    The worst of course are the conspiracy-buffs like Alex Jones. They don't believe in any way there being impartial journalism and they themselves push the most classical propaganda ever once they side with something.

    I think the best way is to simply listen to them as you listen to RT or other news media. They are journalists, and when covering some third nation / third party stuff they do their job applying good journalism. Yet when the issue is Putin or Russia or things on Putin's agenda, they won't utter any criticism and will very smartly promote the agenda. Similarly Al Jazeera English is a great news channel from the Middle East, if you just remember that any story about Qatar or that has a Qatari agenda won't be impartial.
  • Leftist forum
    No one was talking about fraud in 2016. — Xtrix
    Except Mr Trump himself. The election then was going to be rigged, remember?

    He was repeating all the same lines before that how rigged the election was going to be (if he lost). There was even the same debate if he would accept defeat in 2016. What's new?

  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    This seems rather vital to the fascist mindset, but it's difficult to empathise with someone who would say, "Yeah, if he shot someone at random I'd support that". It's an extremely common mindset so I would like to understand it, however evil it seems to me. — Kenosha Kid
    Perhaps start from jokes done with bad taste?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Olivier5
    France has a long tradition of demonsrating in the streets, since their much beloved revolution. The US hasn't had that tradition for a long time, yet I think, unfortunately, it will be the new normal for you now.

    I just remember from my childhood how festive and cheerful US elections were when I lived in Seattle. There wasn't the somber mood as in Europe. Now that I think has changed.
  • Leftist forum
    Well, the debate has moved many pages from this, but I'll reply.

    Seems to me that 21st century society is facing 19th century problems while using antiquated 20th century economics as a solution. — Maw

    Yeah, you can say that, yet society isn't transforming from a feudal society as it was in the 19th Century. Modern middle class is a bit different from the classes of 19th Century. Above all, history of the 19th and 20th Century has also answered many issues, if we just want to look at our history. Yet one part where economics is now truly lost is in monetary economics, that I agree with. It doesn't make any sense of the insanity now upon us (with the economy in recession and asset inflation making the stock market going into all time highs and the central banks printing a lot of money).

    ↪Maw
    Adam Smith institute? Well, what I meant is that apart from Economics 1.1 lessons, economists don't refer typically to Smith as Marxist economists to what Marx has written.
  • Leftist forum
    I wouldn't class strong economic control as a defining part of fascism. — Echarmion
    I would, because it's part of the ideology. Fascists just loath plutocracy, nearly as much as communists do.

    ↪Echarmion
    (I assume what Mussolini thought about the role of capitalism in a fascist state matters.)

    China is drifting towards fascism under Xi, I don't know enough about the internal politics to judge how far it is on that way. — Echarmion
    Learn about it. I think Xi is a perfect example of someone who is an successful autocrat, starting from little things as he abolished term limits for himself. (Trump would be the unsuccessful autocrat).
  • Leftist forum
    ↪Benkei
    There's threads about that, as you know, Benkei.

    Economists like Menger and others have far earlier shown how flawed the theories are, but the most obvious example is the little if meaningless impact of Marxian economics in current economics. Sorry, but markets and the market mechanism of demand and supply work far better to explain economic issues. Not a dubious theory based on "labor" making the value of something. What it is useful is for ideological leftist politics and not much else, actually. Especially with economics or with economic planning it simply isn't useful.

    And anyway, the fixation on going through again and again the writings of the19th Century philosopher with a religious zeal and the utter lack of referring to later Marxian economics shows how dead actually the school is. We simply don't refer to, with similar zeal, to the writings of Adam Smith or Pareto and do understand that even if they did have good insights, their views are quite antiquated as the economy and the society has moved on from the 19th Century. And of course, the utter demise of the communist experiments IS proof just how wrong the economics is, because the theories surely were tried to be put into practice.

    But that hardly matters as it's basically a religion and ideology than a scientific theory.

    And anyway, I'm not so sure how much modern day leftism has to do with Marx anymore.
  • Leftist forum
    ↪Echarmion
    And how do you define fascism?

    What in the part of the definition of being "a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" does China differ according to you? Italy under Mussolini had still capitalism only "with a strong state". The difference for Mussolini and the Italian fascists was that the capitalist system was strongly controlled and lead by a strong government.
  • Leftist forum
    Ok, here's the next question. When are you going to find some outlet other than a philosophy forum for such oh-so dramatic little high school statements? How about reddit, facebook, twitter or any one of a thousand other places? Why do you have to do it here? — Hippyhead
    :up:
  • Leftist forum
    Probably because neither fascism and nazism have anything useful to say about the dominant economic system — Benkei
    Except that China's government lead economy has done quite a lot, which in my view comes close to fascism. But of course, they see themselves as genuine marxists while nobody of the leftists on this forum see them as that (which is hilarious, actually). But hey, who cares what the actual people say to be these times.

    His labour theory of value is a continuation of Adam Smith and Ricardo. — Benkei
    His labour theory is a disaster.
  • Leftist forum
    Warning: this is a leftist forum and you will be attacked unceasingly if you disagree with them.

    Edit: correction, the forum is dominated by leftists.     — Brett

    Naturally any Philosophy forum has for ages been dominated by leftists. Marx simply is such a big part of contemporary philosophy, so the leftists have been always part of the philosophy circles. And even if marxism-leninism isn't so popular anymore, it's totally OK to promote and talk about a philosophy that has lead to hideous totalitarianism and mass murder (unlike fascism and national socialism).

    What just has happened is that the tensions have gone up and the unfortunate low standards of social media have influenced writing here too. The present toxic atmosphere in public discourse hasn't been kept away from this site, unfortunately.

    Yet if you aren't a leftist, I think PF is the perfect forum to interact with reasonable leftists. And actually not all are leftists here...
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Benkei
    That's the disgusting part of this. As I said, Cruz has already referred to his former supporters as terrorists. Yet on the other hand, there of course will be absolutely no "healing", no rapprochement, nothing of that sort what Biden earlier talked about.

    And of course for the conspiracy theorists, the reaction from the government will be the proof that "they were all along right".

    I think the next phase is that we will really start to see a dose of true terrorism as the delusional fringes of the Trump crowd believe that the civil war has already started in Weimar America. Terrorists live in their hallucinations. It's only going to get worse, actually.

    Wonder what the Covid-era, post Trump insurrection-era inauguration will look like. Talk about security then.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Hasn't Trumpism or cult-politics proven to be a failed strategy to maintain power? The Republican Party lost the White House and the majority in both chambers of Congress in only 4 years. — praxis
    Certainly. That is how crazy things are now in the GOP.

    People like Howley and Cruz may be power-hungry but they're not cult leaders who can spin a web of fantasies and lies that can capture Trump supporter's apparent appetite for faith-based leadership. — praxis
    Yet that's what it has come down to in the Republican party: to appease these fringe elements that have taken over the party. Anything that the majority of Republicans believe will be their line. Or they could chosen the Mitt Romney road, which they didn't. Somebody like Cruz might otherwise appear totally normal say rational things, but he will go with the crazy ideas permutating in the Trump party. Because crazy ideas are permutating in the Trump party.

    I think they bet that Republicans (and Americans in general) are separated in their own echo chambers who don't remember anything that happened six months from now. They will talk the lines people in these echo chambers want to hear and then totally turn their coats when the wind changes. They want to engage the anti-establishment crowd even if the crowd isn't rational. Because what was said a week ago doesn't actually matter.

    For example, just look at what Ted Cruz is tweeting now:

    What happened at the Capitol was despicable and horrific. Each and every one of those terrorists need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    This from the senator that pushed for an "emergency audit" and made the following joint statement with other Republicans, despite requests from his own Senate leader Mitch McConnell that Republicans refrain from challenging the certification:

    The election of 2020, like the election of 2016, was hard fought and, in many swing states, narrowly decided. The 2020 election, however, featured unprecedented allegations of voter fraud, violations and lax enforcement of election law, and other voting irregularities.

    "Voter fraud has posed a persistent challenge in our elections, although its breadth and scope are disputed. By any measure, the allegations of fraud and irregularities in the 2020 election exceed any in our lifetimes.

    Hence those who indeed believed that voter fraud and irregularities exceeding any in our lifetimes are now terrorists. And if Trump falls from favor of the Republicans, likely Cruz will say that he fought hard to prevent the excesses of Trump. Everything is as malleable as that.

    That's how it works. That's how Trump works. Because past words and past actions don't matter at all.

    Josh-Hawley-Ted-Cruz-Congress-Vote-Certification-825x400.jpg
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    In reaction to Trump his denouncement of the violence last Wednesday. :rofl: — Benkei
    As I said earlier, Trump will f**k his lunatic supporters in the end. He naturally doesn't mean anything he says. Hopefully the idiots will get the memo, but it's unlikely.

    And of course the lies keep on coming, like that he called immediately the national guard to intervene (which actually happened I guess after 1 1/2 hours by the secretary of the army...or someone like that in the administration).

    So why was Capitol Hill taken over?

    D.C. officials knew of the planned protests and had requested some assistance to help when the "first amendment demonstrations" were planned for January 5 and 6, McCarthy said. Based on this request, officials called up 340 National Guardsmen to help in the peaceful protests. The guardsmen were assigned mainly to traffic control, Metro crowd control, some logistics support and a 40-member quick reaction force to be based at Joint Base Andrews in Maryland.

    "No other requests were made," the Army secretary said.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Benkei
    Plurality of political parties is the natural safety valve in a democracy. A system of two parties has integral problems right from the start.

    Our current popular populist hates women, which is always a nice way to alienate 80% of women. — Benkei
    Nice for you! The "reasonable" yet devoted populist is the worst possible politician.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Benkei
    At least for now, Benkei.

    As the saying goes...

    Yes we can too!
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  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    You’re probably right here. It’s possibly similar in Europe. I’m not sure about that. — Brett
    This is what I'm worried about, because we Europeans really ape all things that happen in the US.

    Especially the local media copies very often the American discourse and puts it into the domestic setting, however different the European country actually would be from the US. Something that is trending in America will get people want to have it here too. Trumpian populism is already popular in many countries. And demonstrations in the US are extremely popular than some local petty problems: just notice how the George Floyd demonstrations and riots spread to other countries (not only the UK) is very telling. Greater cause when it's happening in the US. People will try to find the equivalent sides to portray similar US positions in their totally different European setting. Who cares for things like that the US has a totally different history from ours.

    Parliaments as semi-open public places are lucrative perfect targets. Usually their security measures focus on checking the people going into the balcony (or similar place) to watch the proceedings. Yet just walking from a main door through couple of doors means that and you are likely inside the chambers of the Parliament. Parliaments usually aren't build as let's say Military Headquarters, that have been built to shut areas from outside and not be open. If demonstrators storm the Parliament, that will be an event for the history books and far more noteworthy than your typical demonstration turned a riot with looted storefronts and burned cars. Those happen ever so often in some countries.

    . Obviously violence doesn’t work because it frightens people. — Brett
    I think many are just happy with that. Some even here think violence is justified as a tool for demonstrations and that peaceful protests don't work.

    BLM, BLM-supporters, Environment activists, Senate Invaders

    Same shite kind of people. Persons that due to too much or too little money in their families focuses energy on other stuff than their daytime 9-5 work.     — Ansiktsburk
    Why do you assume that they have a daytime 9-5 work?

    Have you seen the stats for unemployment these days during the pandemic?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Wayfarer
    , both can happen.

    Sure, Trump will be there on Newsmax and perhaps even on Fox commenting and repeating how he was swindled from an election victory (the line he already had ready for the 2016 elections), but honestly the media will get interested about Trump only if he is put on trial and faces prosecution after January 20th. Who cares what he tweets, if he gets back his twitter account?

    The place where Trump actually wants to be. Or something similar:
    origin.jpg

    In 2024 Trump will be even more toxic to a large segment of Americans than Hillary was. So that's the future of Trump. What can happen is that many will try to take the legacy of Trump in order to get his followers, or the remnants of his followers. In the end too many people will be tired of Trump. But he won't be discarded as Sarah Palin or the Bush clan.

    Young politicians who are interested in the legacy of Trump:
    5e8f6d65c023205b7845e76b?width=700

    And secondly, the polarization will thrive, even without Trump. Nothing will change that.

    Haven't we seen how American grass root movements evolve already? First it was the Tea Party, which morphed to Trump supporters, who morphed to Q-anon supporters and into the mob that ransacked Capitol Hill. On the other side you had first the Occupy Movement, which morphed then to BLM and antifa supporters. In fact, that few people call themselves antifa and are there to fight the fascists itself shows where this all is going.

    What you are looking is something like a Weimar America. It's already here, Americans are already living it. If the roaming street gangs in Weimar Germany were the Nazis and the Communists, you already have the American versions of them going around. And they will just further alienate themselves from the democratic process. Sorry to say it, Biden won't stich up this.

    Purpose in life for a few, that won't "go home". The few who will dominate the media scene in an otherwise peaceful US:
    befunky-collage-2-1601480808.jpg

    Let's remember that storming of the Capitol Hill was a continuation of a tactic that we had already seen during the Covid demonstrations in Michigan. The mob of the street is now well entrenched to US politics. It works. It get's publicity. Hence, it won't go away.

    Anyone remember Michigan?
    https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2F8f75f452-ef90-45d2-a84e-bf1ba9f228c5.jpg?fit=scale-down&source=next&width=700
  • The Road to 2020 - American Elections
    40 percent of Republicans polled approved of the Capitol mob attack. — frank
    Which is a minority of Republicans, of people that voted for Trump.

    I think that a major reason why both Kelly Loeffler and Perdue lost the Georgia was because they both jumped on the Trump train. Q-anon beliefs gets a minority excited, but annoys a lot of conservatives Republicans, who all are now called RINOs.

    Republicans simply don't see how stupid and counterproductive it is to support Trump. But I guess that they think that people will forget.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Trump has completely f***ed himself now. He will forever be outcaste on account of what he did yesterday. The remainder is only denouement. — Wayfarer

    Not yet, actually.

    In the next act he will f***k his most loyal supporters I guess.

    You notice the Trump recovery effort is already beginning. Media from the White House is now beginning to appear, 'condeming' the 'dreadful violence' and 'appealing for peace'. Trump has purportedly acknowledged for the first time he won't be serving a second term, which is the nearest he will ever get to a concession. DON'T BE FOOLED - this is desparate damage control from the bridge of a sinking ship. After yesterday's disgrace, Trump must be held to account, those vandals who stormed the Capitol Building - many of whom can easily be located via social media - tracked down and penalised, and his political enablers expelled from the Republican Party. And Trump should be removed from power immediately. — Wayfarer

    I guess now, with only a few days to go, the Democrats will finally change their rhetoric and actions more to the way the GOP has operated at least since Clinton. Which...actually tells a lot about the democrats.

    And likely if (a big if) they get Trump on this, the likely outcome will be that Trump will throw under the bus his most staunchest supporters.

    Oh, but they were antifa posing as Trump supporters....right.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    No, this was certainly not a terrorist. And quite frankly if people honestly believe the election was stolen, this reaction would be totally understandable. — Benkei

    And that is why Trump and the Republicans kissing his ass are responsible here for everything.

    Because for them it's just 2020's political rhetoric. They know they don't mean it for real, which makes all this utterly crazy and in the end a real tragedy. If the election really would be "stolen", then it is totally logical to take up arms, to breach Capitol Hill. But no. Oh how Trump loves his supporters, but "now they have to go home". Just like that. And they shouldn't oppose the police. And mind not destroying or vandalizing anything on the way. Yet just earlier inciting them to walk to the Capitol, which his supporters living in la-la-land aptly did, tells how out of touch this President is from what he is doing.

    As I said, this really is as bizarre and delusional as if my country's President would, just to feel vindicated and to get political points, would start accusing that the Russians have invaded the country. And then when reservists would start to gather around military bases to form units and get their weapons, he would the say to them to go home. So the Russians are invading, but no need to really gather up the Russians, mine the channels, form the brigades. That's the messaging here.

    This is really the absurd state where the US is now where delusional beliefs not only survive, but cherish. Yes, the information apocalypse is here, as you said. The Trump message is that 1) There democracy has been taken away (that's what stealing elections means), but 2) don't do anything about it, go home now.

    In the end, it all just breeds more alienation, polarization and distrust in the democracy of the Republic.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    One thing is obvious.

    The US won't heal, as Joe Biden would want it to.

    The polarization will continue, the alienation will continue. The fringes will continue to dominate the scene (at least in the minds of people when thinking of those on the other side). The silent majority will stay silent. Trump has really helped polarization a lot.

    And I think this will just slowly continue to erode American's belief in their own system. Demonstrations, protests and denials of election wins will have that effect.

    Listened to great current interview from Jonathan Haidt, who in my view made good rational comments. One thing what he mentioned is the obvious generational gap. With older folks and with Biden's generation, domestic politics could be heated, but Americans could unite especially once on the international scene as there was a Cold War going on. However the younger generations have seen only dismal US invasions, hence they don't share that kind of patriotism anymore. And of course no Soviet Union or Marxism-Leninism, hence the left/right divide is seen differently.

  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    The tragedy of the situation is that so many millions of people have been sucked into his vortex of delusion. That’s the real sickness of American society. — Wayfarer
    And the tragedy is that the cynical (and fearful) Republican politicians simply cannot fathom that going with the polarizing rhetoric that has earlier "rallied the supporters", starting from the "Lock-her-up" chants and that have ending now with "Stop the Steal", has truly some other effect than just to get people to turn up vote for them in the elections. It's as the politicians don't understand that their bellicose and vitriolic accusations would and could truly create a tragedy. Yet when you depict someone to be the enemy, some simpleton or delusional person will really think so and respond how one deals with real enemies.

    In other Third World countries such rhetoric from the elections losing President that Trump has used would have already brought it down to a small civil war with urban combat in the Capital where tanks and combat aircraft are used.

    Yet Trump lives in his own delusional TV World where he can say whatever and if things really get bad, he might settle the issue out of court. This all is so obvious from Trump now begging his own supporters simply to "go home". And of course, respect monuments.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    The man is an incomparable idiot. — Kenosha Kid

    Yep.

    Now Trump is saying that the election was stolen... but now go home.

    The guy simply doesn't understand just how seriously his followers take him. And likely that will be the end of Trump once those hardcore supporters understand how full of bullshit their idol is. Because, in the end Trump cannot be anything else but the inept leader that he is.

    (It would be like saying to us Finns that Russia just invaded your country, but go home now, no need to mobilize the army.)
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Really? When was the last time the US Capitol Building was stormed by armed insurrectionists stopping the certification of Electoral College votes? Perhaps you could jog my memory? — Wayfarer
    Puerto Rican activists in 1954 showed the example: see 1954 US Capitol shooting.

    Boston-Daily-Globe_Mar.-2-1954-p.-15_1.jpg

    Of course then it was a normal day...
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Oh come now, there's been far worse behavior, but that's not to say that this behavior isn't especially bad. The streets burn every time there is any feeling of unfairness, real or perceived. Everyone always feels justified when they riot. What you're experiencing is how a riot looks when you find the rioters entirely unjustified. — Hanover
    Now you sound like BLM supporters in the summer when explaining the looting.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Oh, no, that was sarcasm. :wink: — Baden

    The current problem in American politics in 2020-2021: you don't know when people are sarcastic or not.

    And Trump, the TV bully, now getting a little bit frightened and tweeting:

    Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!

    You know, for Trump it's all a TV show, which doesn't matter in the end.
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