I would think that after a year, people will demand circuses even at the risk of half the world dying. What does everyone else think? — ZhouBoTong

Nah.

In truth it's called simply cabin fever: "Cabin fever refers to the distressing claustrophobic irritability or restlessness experienced when a person, or group, is stuck at an isolated location or in confined quarters for an extended period of time."

Perhaps one problem will be that we will learn "social distancing". We'll adapt things just like with medical personnel (even before the pandemic) that you don't shake hands. Shaking hands can become something rude or an issue you don't do with strangers. And your personal distance kept is longer.

People went out and got a lot of food, but lots of people are getting stuff at gas stations, lining up and spreading germs. Is this really better? — Gregory

You have to understand what the basic objective is (actually everywhere):

With social distancing and quarantine measures the objective is to have a lower amount of infections that the health sector can cope with the serious infections. While listening to the health care professionals (and not the politicians) a similar agenda can be noticed.

has above a good picture of what this means. To say this in another way: if the corona-virus spreads too quickly, the health sector cannot handle the serious cases and many many die because lack of proper treatment.

The virus will likely go through the population. The attempt is just to curb the high point and then finally have after enough people have had it (or a vaccine is introduced), the population will have the controversial (in Britain) herd immunity.

The goal is maximum control so that our health system can cope. — Benkei

I think this is in many countries the policy. The objective is to curb the epidemic not hitting everybody at the same time, but that it will be more of a slow burner that the health care system can deal with the patients.

What determines the huge drop in value? — creativesoul

That the Global economy goes into a sudden recession.

Trump has already hinted that now the US economy is going to recession. Here the are making forecasts of a -5% GDP growth.

Markets price in this. And let's see if this is a huge buying opportunity or if that is in the summer.

Now Trump sounds more serious, but sorry to say, but this still sounds and are guidelines that Trump's people hope people to follow. It's natural that some director like Fauci will hope that people will follow the guidelines as this how every health official typically advises people to do something better for their health. Yet it's not an order. There's this small difference in giving guidelines and orders.



When I compared this press conference to the statement given by my young 34.year old prime minister (who I'm not a great fan as she is a social democrat) alongside her administration, she was far more assertive, serious and determined when announcing the country going to emergency laws with 19. points to follow. Those 19 points stated weren't asking people to consider something, they were implementations, this and that institutions will close etc. Also the economic side was immediately responded to: how to help especially all those companies and jobs that are severely hindered by the actions (restaurants, services etc), how much money will immediately be pumped into the economy.

Hence Trump perhaps could have been more serious if he would have had also the Fed Chairman and/or the Secretary of the Treasury next to him announcing what actions will be taken as limiting over 10 person meetings will mean that the economy will go into a tailspin. I know, he has made in other briefings statements, yet I think they should be in the same press conference.

Or perhaps notice the difference how the French President put it:

"We are at war. A health war, certainly, but a war," the French president said.

“I am asking you to stay home. I am asking you to stay calm,” Macron said.

"You will be able to go to get medical help, to go to work if you have to, and to do a physical activity, but you will not be able to meet up with friends in the street," the President said.

"You will not be able to shake hands, and you will have to keep one metre between yourselves."

But there's no reason to believe it won't approach fairly closely the global average. It is possible by some genetic quirk that protects Fins, but essentially zero reason to predict that. — boethius

I'd suspect this is just a thing of statistical variance. As all known infections here have or can be traced to abroad, it's likely that the vast majority of the victims are in good health (as very weak old people don't travel). It can easily change especially if an elderly home gets the virus etc. I'm just thinking of my frail 80-year old father who is living alone at home. He is visited twice daily by health care personnel, so I'm just wondering how large that group of people running there at his home is. Talk about a quarantine. But now when he goes to the hospital for treatment, every time a single room.

I don't think this is quite fair. It's certainly not an ordinary circumstance, but personal liberties are always relative some standard of the public good — boethius

Oh I put the words like that just to get NOS4A2 to tell us "See, I told you so!"

Once these restrictions have continued for a while I guess some people both in the US and in Finland are a fertile ground for conspiracy theories: that the corona-virus is a devious sinister plot by the extremely rich to oppress innocent people and get the "sheeple" to be even more obedient.

This number may seem low to you, but the number of infected is some multiple of the current number of diagnosed cases. — boethius

It's been estimated that infections are about 20-30 times more. No one has any idea what it is now.

If the trend elsewhere is reoccurring in Finland, then there's about 20 to 40 people in critical care, or will enter critical care shortly, among this group. — boethius

Actually there is only one elderly corona-virus patient in intensive care.

Because infections lag behind cases, and grow exponentially without extreme measures, this 272 number has already doubled one or several times in terms of people infected. At this stage, it depends on a lot of factors, so we'll only know later if it's more or less compared to other countries that are further along. But, it's already enough critical care patience "in the pipe" to saturate quality care capacity for these symptoms. — boethius

Everybody has accepted the fact that Finland is simply lagging behind Sweden and Norway. The measures now taken are to curb the height of the epidemic. But they are accepting that the country is in the epidemic phase. Anyway, interesting to see what the effects are.

Keep in mind, once restrictions are implemented, they are not instant in reducing infections; there is an initial period of society "getting into it". So not only are there doubling times already "out there" but there is probably at least another doubling time that is unavoidable while society reconfigures for quarantine. — boethius

The restrictions and voluntary cancellations of meetings started last week and people started to change their behavior basically last weekend. The weekend before that things were normal.

After tomorrow, I have to say that I'm not living anymore in an ordinary Western Republic as the emergency laws take hold (let's see what they come with) and the ordinary individual liberties aren't anymore. The emergency laws will surely pass Parliament as the opposition has already demanded them.

But on the positive side, I have two happy children that at least now are excited that there's no school and they can sleep late. Let's see what their attitude is after one month of home schooling.

Now my country is going to a lock down until 13th of April. Schools closed, every over 70-year old person will be quarantined. Meetings of over 10 person will be forbidden. State of emergency and emergency laws are introduced tomorrow. Government will spend 5 billion euros to help the economy (GDP 290 bn euros).

- 272 infections, no deaths yet reported. Let's see how the toilet paper situation will develop.

So Biden's planning to get a woman.

Thanks to the corona-virus, Joe likely will refrain himself from awkward attempts at smooching with the poor female vp-candidate. If he remembers the existence of the pandemic, that is.



And no Joe-Bernie old grandpa team. :sad:

I am an Earthman on spaceship Earth. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

A modern Canadian, I see.

Even if the death rate were 5% of those infected, that wouldn't equate anywhere near 5% of the total population. Communicable diseases are common and with no controls at all come no where near infecting 100% of the population. — Hanover

In my view there are three simple reasons why this won't be so huge:

a) People aren't going to tested en masse for the corona virus. Hence the vast majority who will get it, but don't have so severe symptoms that they need hospitalization, will simply not be seen in the stats. Already epidemiologists are saying that the likely infections are 20-30 times greater than the official statistics. Yet that's still not much.

b) A tiny fraction of the people having fever and flu symptoms are actually having covid-19. And quite likely a lot of those corona-virus victims will be misdiagnosed as being killed by ordinary flu. This will result, as I said earlier, in that we will be surprised at the statistic in historical studies (done in the 2030's and later) that put the number of deaths far higher than now are going to be informed.

c) The drastic measures taken now will surely have an effect on the death rate. That people take caution will have an effect.

But there are types of people in the US (militia-types and preppers) who will not take kindly to drastic state actions that might infringe on their rights. — NOS4A2

Actually, I think they will be disappointed. They assume the Hollywood scenario. It's not going to happen.

Think about it.

In our lifetime we've already seen an equivalent crash and crisis to the 1929 crash. The international financial system was already on the brink of collapsing (that we were informed about later). Now we are seeing a pandemic where countries are going on lock down and closing borders.

This is what the preppers have been waiting for. And they can stay in their home as they have planned. And normal people will stay home also. And the real fuss is about ....toilet paper.

More of an anti-climax than a climax to say "I told you so" for the preppers.

The US does not have paid sick leave, nor quick and easy "keep me alive money" like your infamous Kela (Finnish bureaucrats solve your personal problems on behalf of the government). As soon as people have no money, can't eat, and get violent on, not necessary big scale, just impressive for the news cycle: Marshal law. — boethius

The paid sick leave option is a good point. But then who will say that people cannot go to work?

The US does not have universal health care, so it's going to be chaos people, government, hospitals, trying to resolve who pays for what. — boethius

But we do already have the hysteria up a notch from you already. We still are in the "containment" phase and not in the "mitigation" phase like Sweden. Of course, we will be there soon.

And the result has been simply:
1) Officials have urged people to stay home if you have ordinary flu symptoms. Only if you have breathing problems, then go to the hospital .

2) They are now only to test risk groups: elderly or those who have been in China, Italy etc. They simply don't have the capacity to check EVERY person that has a cough. If you are with ordinary flu symptoms and not been in China, then simply stay home.

I will assume that the US response will be something similar. With the exception that it's the rich that will get tested for corona-virus. So it's not surprising for me that it's Tom Hanks and wife that are the new models for corona victims.

The institutions needed to keep things stable in the US don't exist as they do here in Europe, and there's no way to create them on short notice. — boethius

That was already seen when one of the nightmare-disaster scenarios happened with hurricane Katrina with the levies being breached. It can be totally true what Chris Kyle (depicted in American Sniper) bragged about doing in New Orleans.

Yet hardly a pandemic makes these things happen. It doesn't happen with lightning speed. And this is the time we are at peak hype about it. So... toilet paper riots? Has anyone noticed those?

No, the panic-snowball will be melted by summer. This virus will take its place with H1N1 and all the others that continue to kill the elderly. — frank

Yeah, this pandemic will be old news come winter 2020-2021 when the actual spike will happen. And only later will they start putting higher the numbers of deaths that likely will emerge in historical accounts in the 2030's. Then we'll be surprised that so many actually died.

Luckily, as of now, the people are compliant. But given sufficient time that might all change. — NOS4A2

The pandemic likely will take more time than people will think. It may take a year. But I don't think people will revolt, they will more likely adapt to a 'new normal'. Likely people will start using more face masks than before, start using that elbow bump and not tolerate people coughing or sneezing as before. I don't see any reason for people revolting.

(Perhaps when Trump cancels/postpones the elections because of pandemic or something.)

I believe it is only a matter of time before the rules are defied and as a response a police-state or martial law is implemented. — NOS4A2

You think so?

I disagree. Even the libertarian people of the US will adhere to the instructions of the CDC and their local health services.

It was a second mutated strain making a second wave in the fall that was the most lethal episode of the Spanish flu. — boethius

That's true. It started as an "ordinary flu". The second time around was worse.

Well, we live in interesting times.

I am a Canadian. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You do know you are an American. Would North American be better?

Why, when the corporate heads own your government and writes it's legislation for it? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Ownership and having influence over decisions are two different things. Just as there is a difference between Canada and the US compared to Saudi-Arabia or North Korea.

Obviously you can argue with the counter factual of "What if nothing would be done, then how many would die" by having some basis to estimate the deaths will be low if action isn't taken. — boethius

If no action would be taken to fight the disease, there would have already been a lot of pandemics in our lifetime causing similar havoc as the black death or the Spanish flu. In the case of the Spanish flu antibiotics have gone a long way from 1918. After all, let's not forget that the modern influenza A has derived from it.

Your whole previous point of drawing a comparison to previous pandemics that didn't have these extreme policy reactions is proof that you can go forward without the measures we're seeing today ... if the deaths really are low enough that "the economic disease" of extreme measures would be worse than "the actual disease" then yes, it's unfortunate it will kill people but it's impossible to shut down society to just delay the inevitable spread of the disease. - Now, yes, you could just let everyone who can't survive without treatment die and everyone else carry on as normal. The fact is, people don't accept that policy. — boethius

And this is my point: we simply don't tolerate the idea of many thousands dying in an epidemic as we earlier did.

The lessons learned have improved our responses in fighting epidemics. That itself has changed how countries respond to outbreaks. Politicians, even if they wouldn't care so much (as Trump at first), simply have to react. That now a multitude of European countries are shutting down their borders and my country is serious contemplating emergency laws that have never been implemented since WW2 tells the playing field for politicians has changed.

For example, assume if we could forecast earthquakes in a similar way we can forecast volcano eruptions. That would totally change everything. US politicians simply couldn't disregard alarm bells from the scientific community of an impeding strong earth quake in the San Andreas fault let's say in the next two weeks. How many fatalities would we accept if we had prior knowledge of an earthquake that would be estimated to be 7 to 9 on the richter scale?

You’re seriously under selling your point with those stats. — I like sushi

I took as example equivalent pandemics. When they find out that heart disease is caused by an infection, that will be the day.

Corvid ... at worst it may, just possibly, nearly compete with cancer this year. If I’m being honest I think it’s more realistic to view it as maybe competing with malaria. — I like sushi

Exactly.

Yet any disease that can be treated or avoided with government action is given a focus. That's the whole point. You see, people take an Earthquake is taken as a given. Only construction regulation, first response and medical treatment effect how many die. Yet it's totally different if the same amount of people would die in a terrorist attack or war. Those we can prevent.

If by closing the border you can spare X amount of people from dying, will you close the border and face an economic downturn. Which government will choose then to keep the border open? Where do you draw the line? If you keep borders open and there isn't a recession and If 10 more are killed? Would that be Ok? What about 100 more deaths? 1 000? 10 000? 100 000?

The thing is, you cannot argue with counter-factuals of "What if nothing would be done, then how many would die". It doesn't go like that. Hence once a pandemic is over a level of reporting, then governments will act. So this might be the new normal if and when there are pandemics, even less dangerous ones.

I am not a conspiracy nut but some facts cannot be ignored. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That we eat more and exercise less isn't a government program. That Coca-cola or the tobacco industry try fighting regulations with their own "facts" is very much an American thing, but you have to still make the separation between corporations and the public sector. Where you can make the difference is for example in the meals given in schools. Even if I was a child back then, when I came to the US to the 2nd Grade, I could notice that the food was rubbish compared to what it was like in my home country. The amount of sugar was surprising even to a kid. Yet I wouldn't go so far to call it an intentional policy to get people fat.

I am not a conspiracy nut but some facts cannot be ignored. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Well, I would say that societal changes that happen when people get more prosperous and eat more meat than before isn't only because of the US. But Americans do have this urge to think they are causing everything bad in the World. It isn't so. You aren't SO important.

I hope I'm wrong, I have relatives there, but I expect Trumpmerica is more likely to walk itself blindly into a disaster than do what's necessary, which is a total and extreme shutdown. — Baden

What would you call a disaster? The only truly deadly pandemic has been HIV/AIDS with 32 million people dead.

Let's just look at deaths from prior pandemics in the US. Naturally the death tolls vary quite much, but still I guess they can give some information:

Pandemic.................number of deaths in the US
1957-58 Asian flu: 69 800
1968-1969 Hong Kong flu: 34 000 - 100 000
2009 H1N1 "swineflu": 12 000

Now, do you remember 2009? Did swineflu get similar precautions as today? I don't think so.

My argument is that people now will think that if 10 000 people die of corona-virus in the US, that will be a disaster.

Have you noted, for instance the government food guide in the U.S. shows a really poor diet which is meat heavy and vegetable poor. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You have to show this until I believe it. Usual guides talk about a 20%-25% of meat and fish.

Here is an Australian example:


And the US one:



From my country, where they go for pyramids and even accepting that people eat cake:


I don't think there's a sinister ploy here.

You're at about Feb 15th Italian time. — Baden

Except now the awareness and the precautions of the virus are totally on a different planet than a month ago. This should be taken into account. With schools closing down, all public events canceled, with a national emergency and a lot of countries in total lock down mode, that will likely result that it won't be like in Italy from Feb 15th onward. Now it starts to be so that you simply cannot be without have heard of the virus.

Make America great again, by stealing German scientists again. — unenlightened

Yep, there's a long tradition to that!

Or that could all be bullshit, but you heard it here first! — unenlightened

Now that's a catchy phrase!

What I do think is we lead more regulated lives and less physically active lives, and these produce more stress. — unenlightened

Compared to 1980's or 1990's I agree. This regulation happened because of a) 9/11 and b) social media, the woke nonsense & me too etc. Next regulation is happening just now with the present pandemic.

Still, I think that compared to pre WWI era I think then it was WAY more strict.

It was obviously never a "strategy" of any sort, just a propaganda slight of hand on gullible people to make them look more responsible: "Well, we had a plan, but we're big enough to admit it's not on track and so we're changing our approach". — boethius

Especially when there's some news that the lock down is working to curb the growth rate of infections. I guess the "lock down" option will be very trendy now. No huge public outcries because of the actions have been heard in Poland, Denmark, Czech Republic or Spain.

Anyway, this will be a great leap in the digitalization of the whole society! Just think how many workplaces have to learn now to use Skype, Teams, Whatsapp etc.

That's a great list, thank you unenlightened. And really shows how Trump deals with things.

You should add the telling example of how Trump thinks about everything from Feb 28th:
"The Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus - One of my people came up to me and said, 'Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.' That did not work out too well. They could not do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. ... They tried anything. ... And this is their new hoax."

Next Trump will start bragging about how his quick and dramatic decisions saved the US from a worse outbreak! That we will surely hear. And the Trumpists will reurgitate that whimsical view even on this forum.

The modern stress is that everything is up for judgement and control, your body-shape, how much you drink eat, fart, everything you say Did I hear the N word? Did you take a piss somewhere you shouldn't? Are you obese, or is that a suicide belt you're wearing? The mere power of life and death is a small thing. — unenlightened

Umm... you think those are caused by our rulers or governments?

Most what you listed there are obviously societal norms, not exactly laws or regulations. I gather there were norms before too. In fact, one could argue that the societal norms were more strict earlier. When is the last time you have heard university students having a duel because they had a disagreement?

The abusive structures of capitalism are just softened and disguised versions of the same structures you’re talking about. Being softened makes them better than the raw untempered versions there used to be, sure, but that doesn’t make everything sunshine and roses today either. — Pfhorrest

You are simply underrating the true advances in human society just to make a point how things still suck. This is quite typical when really don't think or know how things have changed. Yet there is quite a leap from feudalism to the present.

The thing is that one does have freedoms like choosing the place to live or deciding on what job to take. You don't have an owner who you have to ask permission to marry. You and your work cannot be sold or bought: if the company you work for is sold, you do have the ability to quit. You are not in an obligation to work for a lord. Also, the lord that own's the land isn't responsible of you. This is the crucial part to understand that separates modern ordinary contracts, rental agreements, jobs or simple buying and selling from pre-capitalist feudalism.

To say that the present is just a softened and disguised version of this isn't truthful. It's not a human right to own a smartphone and if the app providers sell that info gotten from you using the app, it really doesn't make you a serf. You are not obliged to take a bank loan. That the pay isn't good and you have a shitty job contract really isn't equivalent to real serfdom. We simply have this urge to portray this time as bad as it was earlier because we take all the freedoms and liberties totally granted as natural rights. When we see that things don't work, when poor people can be pushed around some jump to the conclusion that this is serfdom. It might look as if serfdom, but it isn't true serfdom. We forget that there wasn't democracy and the rights of the individual were quite few.

But of course, some are willing to make this argument that absolutely nothing has happened at all and invent definitions like corporate feudalism as below:



But it's simply rhetoric, just like saying that the US under Trump is a fascist country (or would be socialist under Bernie Sanders).

Start with the wall paid by Mexicans. Or North Korean nuclear weapons program going onward full steam.

But of course, people can say that the Democrats didn't let him to do it. Just like the reason given for Obama not to have closed GITMO. And anyway, who cares about the facts? And at least he makes the impression that things are done. Many politicians even don't do so much.

I'm not so confident. National security decisions do get made by shadowy figures around round tables.

It's pretty well documented that China covered things up as long as possible; we needed a Chinese doctor to warn us (which is risking one's life in China ... and he died, but we're told it's just coincidence).

I haven't gone into the exact timing of events, so don't have an opinion of what's the more plausible cause of the cover up. — boethius

The ineptness can be also simply wishful thinking. And many it actually works for the politician. That it's a local epidemic that goes away. That you get of with just a scare. Then harsh measures would look like panic.

You see, there are very many outbreaks of diseases that don't make it, are just local things.
For example, look at the list of List of Ebola outbreaks where there are over 30 minor outbreaks of Ebola or other Filovirida. And as I've given as an example earlier, every now and then there is a case of the bubonic plague in the US.

Anyway, I don't know the story so well. But I guess history writing will tell us later.

So back when we had real authoritarian regimes or feudalism, that wasn't stressful?

In Feudalism the noble aristocrat was the owner, the judge, a mini-king for the serfs. That's more power than Bill Gates has on your life.

It is very possible China made sure it "was let loose globally" either by reflexive cover-up of inept mandalorians or then by design once it was clearly going to have massive implications in China. Obviously, China is first to fail to contain. — boethius

You think so?

When one option for reasons for bad political decisions is ineptness, I know for what option I'll go for.

Trump delivered on all those (more or less). So the people who liked those policies then, love Trump more than ever. — Relativist

And of course he actually hasn't delivered, but that doesn't matter. He has done enough to infuriate the liberals, which Trump voter absolutely love. And his "non-presidential" way of joking keeps them smiling. Above all, any criticism can be shrugged off as TDS.

Containment was simply never seriously implemented in a globally coordinated manner this time around - — boethius

At least actions taken now are dramatic. And China did at first respond badly, that's true.

The "problem" in terms of disruption to our lives and the economy, is indeed psychological. People are no longer accustomed to their loved one's dying for preventable reasons in rich countries — boethius

I agree with you. Time's really are changing. Just like 9/11 changed the whole attitude towards terrorism, we might have here a dramatic change on how we handle epidemics. In the 70's security was lax even if in Europe there was a lot of terrorism.

Thank's for the comments.

We are here in Finland living at the start or "take off" stage of the pandemic with 210 cases and going up (equivalent by population size to 12 000 cases in the US) with no fatalities yet. The government is contemplating emergency laws and deciding next Monday if to keep schools and daycare centers open. Likely that happens when they loose track of epidemic (meaning there isn't a clear history and a path from where everybody has gotten the virus). Now at least officially all cases have been visiting China, Northern Italy etc. with no "domestic" cases.

My son's school informed today that they had a case of a corona-virus infected person being for one day (9th this month) at the school. One class plus teachers have been quarantined from next Monday for 9 days. Any students coming from abroad have to take a two week leave before coming to school. And then yesterday, after school my daughter (who is in a different school from his big brother) felt bad and had fever :yikes:. So girl into bed. Now the fever has subsided and she has no cough, no running nose etc. Although the vast majority of diseases that cause fever aren't this ugly virus we are all excited about, one has to take of course precautions, so no school for her on Monday and a consultation with the teacher when to come. And the family isn't going to meet grandfather for a while. But anyway, there's no meetings next week and work is only from home. Guess the family stays at home for a while and enjoys the drama of a pandemic.

Countries going to war doesn't happen in any sequence, so it's rather uninformative to count an average to wars. Nations vary in their age and let's say a Great Power being entangled in an colonial war is something totally different... than the nation or area to be colonized. You really don't see the War in Afghanistan on the streets of New York, but you do see it in Kabul.

And then there is the question how you define a war. If a country sends a 30-man medical team to a joint-operation, does that mean that the country is in war? Or does the enemy have to bomb the country and there be martial law and universal conscription?

Had a containment strategy been effectively implemented, the same strategy that worked for Sars-1 and Ebola, the pandemic, in the least, would have been significantly slowed. — boethius

I would say that there is a learning process here: SARS, MERS, Swineflu etc. Now countries are taking a concentrated and drastic measures. If we would be living in 20th Century, this would be like "a nasty flu". That's it. Old people die of flu, that's just a given. It tells something of the times.

The thing is these pandemics and the one we have now could have been equivalent to Spanish Flu or to mid-20th Century pandemics like the Asian flu and Hong Kong flu, but they weren't. And likely the outcome of this one will be far less also. It doesn't mean that this is at all less dangerous.

One thing is if we start to take "seasonal flu" the same way.

Any thoughts on how this whole toilet paper craze got started? — Echarmion

Once something is going off the shelves and we use it on a daily basis, the hoarding starts.

I think people are 1) afraid of a Italian / Chinese style lock down and 2) if they do get flu symptoms, the best thing is to have this self-imposed quarantine and not go to daily shopping. And then there's the "collapse of civilization" crowd...

We're over the peak of toilet role panic now. — Punshhh

Sounding like Trump few weeks ago on the corona issue. But ultimately people will have enough of toilet paper. :razz:

It was interesting to see what they ran out of. Bread, eggs, toilet paper, and rice were all gone. Seafood, canned beans, yogurt, and cheese were plentiful. I bought some precooked hot wings, which is my staple survival food during coronavirus scares. — Hanover

Man I was hoping the toilet paper thing sparked a bidet renaissance; ever since I went to Japan I've been hoping that bidets become a standard thing everywhere, but alas, we're stuck with paper :rage: — StreetlightX

Oh there too? What on Earth is it with people hoarding toilet paper? Happened here too. It's not a cholera epidemic. It's just crazy.

My prediction is that no one here will die or lose a close family member to the virus. If they do, I'll look like a dick for saying this, but that's the risk I'm willing to take, putting my nice guy reputation on the line. — Hanover

In all seriousness, that is what probability theory would say. It is quite likely that it's going to be rather rare (but not impossible) to get down with a serious corona infection (needing hospital level care) with the precautions and the attitudes now taken. Of course everybody now having flu symptoms will be careful. And as flu is quite common, we will have our corona-scares.

I've said that it's unlikely that the virus will kill one million people in the World. The pre-emptive measure now taken after the swineflu pandemic simply are so dramatic. Just for comparison (that we have a scale on how deadly diseases are) heart disease and cancer combined kill about 1,2 million annually only in the US. If you would make the prediction, Hanover, of no one here will die or lose a close family member to heart disease or cancer, you would by 0,99+ probability be wrong.

If the first wave of the epidemic in China has infections is really going down now by extremely drastic measures and you have deaths in the thousands in a country of 1 billion, that's is few. If (when) it jumps ten times after one year from now, that's still few.

In a way it does show we do value human life.

If it's not a woman, perhaps Joe should take Bernie as vice president.

Vice president isn't so important, but Biden should really get the progressives with him.

(And think of how scared that would make Republicans if Joe has health problems.)