Good, now you're finally saying something. — Agustino

What should be done then? — Agustino

Kill the infidels.

Sure, what does that have to do with me using the Catholic Church for the sake of this discussion though? — Agustino

If the discussion is about saving Christianity, getting a bunch of evangelical Protestants mucking about doesn't save Christianity or the Catholic Church.

In fact, you probably don't find a lot of genuine believers, period, because following Jesus or Buddha is hard. — Bitter Crank

How many Christians would drop everything and follow Him if He came upon your doorstep? Methinks very few. The idea of Jesus is quite nice, but if the reality came knocking...hard, I agree.

I'm far more of a cultural Christian than an ardent believer. Whether I even believe in it is unclear. I hang around a Lutheran church because it is near by (across the street) and it helps me maintain a little community with other people. I would prefer a bit more community, and would like to have more gays and oddball outliers among my circle,. But success in seeking oddballs and outliers in Lutheran churches is contraindicated. — Bitter Crank

I got that sense, but...you sort of prove my point from earlier, that a lot of religious people aren't particularly religious, they just value a sense of community super highly.

Edit: I mean, how many religions would even survive without a community component? How many Christians would there be if they couldn't hang out, go to church, play basketball in the gym after a potluck, etc.? No community and you just end up with a couple monks out in the middle of nowhere.

They also have as much integrity, interest in salvation, and are as attentive to the teaching of Jesus as everyone else. — Bitter Crank

Yes, and I'm sure all Christians drink water, too.

I have had lots of interaction with conservative and liberal Catholics, mainline Protestants and evangelicals. Sincere and earnest believers are all pretty much alike, as are lukewarm believers, whatever their denominational membership. — Bitter Crank

I think I'd venture to agree with you here, though I still think it's important to separate x believer with y believer on the grounds of what they believe, not merely how fervently they believe.

My, such a glittering generality. What, actually, do you know about Lutherans and Methodists? — Bitter Crank

Firstly, that you're either Lutheran or Methodist, considering the bitterness of your tenor at present. Secondly, I never claimed that all Methodists or Lutherans or what have you are fakes. In this thread at least I'm not being positive with regard to Protestants because they've been very little good to me and my family. Those legions of charlatans I've come in contact with ought to feel the heat of hellfire, but tu, Bitter Crankus? No, I like you. You seem like a good, upstanding gentleman.

That's correct. But so what? — Agustino

There's a pretty big difference between not being Catholic and being Catholic, just as there's a huge gulf [teehee] between Sufism and some other sect of Islam. Pentecostalism doesn't save Christianity, just as radical Islamism doesn't save Islam.

It is a curious thing. From afar, protestants (thinking here of evangelicals mainly) seem a lot more into their religion, at least superficially, than many lay Orthodox believers (or Catholic) that I know personally. But obviously I don't have as much acquaintance with protestants as you do. So what's your general take on Protestantism from within the belly of the beast? — Agustino

Islamist suicide bombers seem pretty "into their religion." But does that make what they say or believe in right? Or does it mean that they actually understand their "religion"? I don't think so.

And for what it's worth, since you inquired, I don't think Protestants are any more pious, let's say, than their Catholic or Orthodox counterparts. Although it's true I've not been in contact or have surrounded myself with as many Catholics and Orthodox Christians, I can confirm from my own experience that the mumbling and hand flipping many evangelical Protestants do have no bearing on how they treat others. They're as rotten and sinful as everyone else, so there's definitely an outward, superficial aspect there that you had best not get lured in by.

I also think that Lutherans and Methodists and all other bland ass, more leftist Protestant denominations are as fake as the evangelicals. Though, perhaps James Comey is the most moral Methodist I "know", 8-)

Is a common experience with Protestant believers? — Agustino

Many of the minister's daughters I have met are simply strange, dunno about promiscuous...haven't tried them out >:)

Right, so now we know that you don't own a Mac — Agustino

But we both know that Sappy sure does, ;)

I have no opinion about Muhammad's character. — T Clark

Enough of an opinion to suggest that Thinker's characterization of Mohammad was and is an "empty idea" ...

He died 1,400 years ago.

Having sex with a child is immoral, whether it's now or 1,400 years ago. Do you contest this?

It's not relevant to what we are discussing.

Seeing as you replied to Thinker's post about Muhammad's character and the need for [Christians] to use moral argument in light of Islam's cherished prophet, I fail to see any other discussion being attempted, from either you or Thinker.

Thousands, tens of thousands, of Catholic priests have raped tens of thousands of children, in many cases destroying their lives. Does that justify rejecting Christianity out of hand? Actually, maybe it does. That's not the only stain on the robe of Christianity.

Ah, yes, this ole flimsy defense. Sees discussion about Muhammad and Islam, decides to move the goal posts so the topic changes to being about Catholic priests. Sigh, I really do tire of seeing this argumentative approach, here and elsewhere. If you or anyone wants to critique Mohammad, compare him to Jesus. If you want to analyze immorality in Catholic priests, compare it to Muslim Imams. But, this would rubbish your position, so I'm sure you won't do that, which is why you've proclaimed not to have an opinion on a psychopathic, child molesting desert warlord in Muhammad, but will readily scream about pedophilic priests, giving your opinion on them when no one desired it.

The fact that you, Agustino, and your ilk are so afraid of Islam shows the emptiness of your ideas. You just want to keep what's yours and make sure no one else gets their share. — T Clark

Argue that Muhammad was an upstanding and moral man. If you can't do that, there should be an x in the top of right of your screen which you could perhaps click.

I thought you might say that, but you're not Catholic. Nor are the great many mobs that are being evangelized in largely developing countries. Making some bum a Pentecostal is no at all the same as converting someone to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. And it was my suggestion earlier that the preying of Protestantism on the uneducated and poor is not a good thing, as that "Church" won't, post-conversion, actually educate them.

If I was the Pope, I'd be adamant about this. An important job of the Church should be to find a mechanism to even speed up the process of removing fake believers from within. A wolf in sheep's clothing is more dangerous than even a pack of wolves! What is necessary are people who are totally committed to the traditions of the Church, to its history, to living moral lives, and to God. — Agustino

What is the "Church"?

I think the religion Mongrel is referring to will look a lot like Noblosh's avatar. Apathetic, bored, passive aggressive, and claiming to have read "that fucking book" even though the drool has soiled the ink.

On topic, Christianity's growth includes fundamentalist Protestant denominations herding the dumb and uneducated in SEA, South America. and southern Africa, which is not going to save what's already being hemorrhaged. Pentecostalism vs. moderate Islam, hoo boy, I better start popping the popcorn now.

Are you a douche, obsessed with making fun of the Christian Old Testament, do you think Richard Dawkins represents the real presence of Christ, do you enjoy being a dick toward people who are religious, do you think that your disbelief in God makes you better, smarter, cooler? If you check boxed any of these, I'm sorry, but you're an idiot O:)

What do I look like? Hopefully I have a club and live under a bridge.

No, I actually don't think I'm fit to be a moderator, but I would have other people to propose: Mariner, Thorongil, yourself, John and a few more! I'd aim for a mix between theist/atheist, progressive/conservative, just to make everything fair. — Agustino

Hey, don't die, okay? (Y)

I will be in a documentary, how cool is that? — TimeLine

Depends on the documentary, >:O

~

And I don't agree that depression never ceases to exist for those who have been depressed at one time or another. It's not something that you're stuck with for life, but something which can come and go. I reject this false dichotomy of either being depressed or coping with depression, and everyone else must be in denial. There do exist people who, for periods of time, are genuinely neither depressed, nor coping with depression, but for whom depression has no place in their life. — Sapientia

To play devil's advocate here, do you think that merely eliminating symptoms of depression, say by the taking of medicine, also eliminates depression at one's core?

Like look - hard work means you don't even have time to eat properly. No breaks, no nothing. Wake up, work work work, sleep. Repeat. — Agustino

This is extreme. One can be a hard worker without also being a walking zombie.

3+1(.5) (MSc). — Agustino

Sounds like a bachelors degree here in the States, which is not anything to write home about, really.

You just misunderstood what I meant by my statement. — Agustino

Alright, okay.

I'm not blaming it, I'm merely saying the truth — Agustino

Bitch, fucking puleaze. Get off your high horse.

Quote the right bit of text. The ego is in you saying your character would be wasted by working at McD's. — Agustino

In Christian language, I'd say that the current path I'm on is my calling. The good in me would best be expressed by not working at McDonald's. This really isn't that outlandish a thought.

Well yes, I think if Sapientia wants more money, then he needs to work harder (more than fulltime). I certainly had weeks this past year when I worked 12hours+ day after day. — Agustino

It never follows that the poor are always poor because they don't work hard, and the rich are rich because they worked harder than everyone else. Living in this modern capitalist West means that a lot of people get shafted and/or fall through the cracks because a small segment of the population are disproportionately wealthy in relation to the rest of citizens.

"Working harder" really isn't good advice, especially for people who are already doing so and can't get themselves up and out.

Yes, but the government should do more to help people like me than people like Mr. Rich and his gold digger wife. — Sapientia

Arrogance. You just need to work harder.

Bridges are more complicated structures because of dynamic loading issues and (for some bridges) resonance. So no, I didn't expect to be a bridge master. But I did expect to be able to design and build a simple house from scratch for example. — Agustino

How long of a degree?

In my opinion yes, but that's not what most other people would say. Most other people in my place (my classmates) were very happy. — Agustino

I don't see how this applies to what I said?

I'm not blaming anything - as I said before, I am happy that I'm not working in the same industry I got my degree in atm. — Agustino

Yes, you are! You've spent quite a lot of time bashing education and blaming it for not being able to meet your expectations.

Weak — Agustino

Where is this supposed ego of mine? I'm not seeing it.

Right, I suggest you compare the job description of a civil engineer with that of a construction worker. Totally different things. Site management/supervision is just one of the things a civil engineer can do. Designing structures or foundations is another for example. — Agustino

If you think taking classes in a school room is going to teach you how to make a bridge perfectly in real life, I dunno what to tell you.

Who told you it was shite? — Agustino

So, your ranting and raving here and about useless an education is doesn't mean that education is shit?

Nope, I went through my education with the idea that I'd actually emerge a fully capable engineer out of there. — Agustino

Going through that education doesn't teach you everything you need to know. Again, I just keep reading silly expectations from you while you're trying to blame everything else but yourself for not being in the position that you'd like.

No this isn't an a priori necessity. It could be that all parents send their kids to become doctors, and we end up having an overabundance of them. Then the world certainly doesn't need anymore. — Agustino

You're not addressing my point. Retry.

Right, so more ego. Instead of saying something reasonable such as "I think I can help others better as a licensed counselor than as a McD's worker", you prefer to indulge in ego :-d — Agustino

What? Your quote is precisely my position. Re-read what I wrote if you couldn't figure that out.

How can something be a tragedy for someone if their actions didn't cause it? — Noblosh

People's actions don't cause the suffering in their lives? Wot?

A civil engineer isn't a construction worker mate... — Agustino

"Civil engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the design, construction, and maintenance of the physical and naturally built environment, including works like roads, bridges, canals, dams, and buildings."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'm probably one of the best educated people on the planet actually in terms of schooling. I was always the very top of the class, in both school (I was valedictorian) and university (apart from first year when I almost failed). — Agustino

Best educated? I thought your education was shite?

My complaints don't stem from "my" failed education. My complaints stem for the fact that education just isn't helpful - despite me receiving some of the best education out there, I was still incapable to do useful work for others. — Agustino

????????? >:O

It did get me a job, but I soon realised that in a job you are like a slave for the most part - at the mercy of others, since you simply haven't been adequately trained to provide real value to people. There's very little creativity, freedom to choose when you work, how you come dressed to work, etc. And I don't like that. So I absolutely didn't choose to quit engineering because of necessity - it's not because I wasn't making enough money. — Agustino

So you went through with your "education" with the idea that you would never be taken advantage of or that you'd never have a shit boss?

That's not the point. The point is that you have so many advantages which you're throwing away. — Agustino

This is easy for you to say over the internet.

Ehmmmm no. The system isn't supposed to ensure your success at all. — Agustino

Yes, it does. Success doesn't mean perfection, though. Remember that the baddies in power used the same system to get where they are now.

It's nothing but your arrogance and inflamed sense of self worth that makes you think degradingly of working at McD's. — Agustino

Really, this is your reply? Fine, Agu, go volunteer in Somalia and work with the poor and dying. If you don't, this makes you an arrogant, narcisistic prick, :D

Just like losing weight, making money doesn't involve secrets. Just hard work. — Agustino

And there is NOTHING wrong with me putting in hard ass fucking work completing one or more degrees in order for me to be trained to work a job I got that education for, a job that I also plan to work my ass off doing.

Supposing that the world doesn't need anymore doctors (there's too many) why the fuck would you become a doctor? It's your fault for going into something that the world doesn't need anymore. You keep throwing the blame, but it's not anyone's fault. — Agustino

The world always needs good doctors, persons who have the passion to treat and operate on those in need. Blame not the profession in itself, but those who fail to live up to the standard that is still being upheld by those commendable individuals who are doing a great job.

So I'm not telling you to be a slut at all - I'm telling you to do something that is useful and helpful for others (and obviously legal) - as far as I see, I'm telling you to stop being a selfish bastard (I want I want) and start being an unselfish and upstanding man (what can I give to the world?). — Agustino

As far as I'm concerned, my plan to become a licensed counselor and clinical therapist is perhaps the least selfish career path I can take. And getting a proper education to facilitate this, my career aspiration, is not egotistical, or bastardly, or whatever else. Don't lecture me about not being a good person merely because I don't want to work retail or be in the restaurant business. My character and expertise would be wasted flipping burgers. Period.

Who told you that? The corrupt educational system? Of course they did! That's the basic principle of selling anything, convincing your customer (read victim) that he needs your product or service - or otherwise he's fucked. — Agustino

Would you see a doctor without them having previously gone through all the necessary educational and professional hoops that warrant them being awarded a medical license? Western education is not about eliminating fuck-ups, or mistakes, or, absolutely, every person who shouldn't be what they have a "degree" in. What it does do is provide a reasonably objective foundation from which people are educated and trained in various fields and specialties in order to work a job suited to those emphases. That said, you and I can debate how that objective foundation can be wrought, but the idea itself is a sound one, and any argument against it would suggest to me that that person is sipping some mad koolaid.

Oh I am well acquainted with educational systems through out the world. They all say the same shit. I too believed that shit, until I had my degree, and I saw that it really was no big deal. I wasn't actually smarter or more qualified to do anything because of my degree. I really understood that despite getting my degree with honors, I was completely unqualified in truth for any real work. I really felt I didn't know much. And so I understood that, despite them praising you and shit - university is really useless. — Agustino

No, I don't think you are. Is it the university's fault that you got an education just to be a construction worker? Again, you're trying to pigeon-hole your failed education experience into a macro problem for everyone, which is dubious thinking. In fact, I'm going to start a thread about this topic, since none of this has anything to do with Question's OP.

Oh, so you think I just magically landed in such a job, completely by accident right? — Agustino

I don't know how you got your job, or any job you've had in the past. If you're gonna hipfire how simple everything is, don't be so bummed when someone like me slams you with equally dismissive replies.

Unbelievable mate, you're complaining?! If I can start a business and make money in a fucking ex-communist country, full of corruption, bureaucracy and crooked laws which squash small businesses and help only big oligarchs, why can't you do it in the greatest capitalist country on Earth?! Just the mere fact you're American => that's instant credit worldwide. — Agustino

Credit enough not to land me a decent job, yeah. I'd be pretty well off if I could only tap into my Americaness, and my whiteness, and my maleness, and my <insert any other supposed privilege>

You could do something internet based - work anywhere in the world from this "rust belt" middle of nowhere place, so long as you have a computer and an internet connection. If you ran, for example, a web design agency - you could get your projects anywhere in the world. If you ran a digital marketing agency - same shit. I guess you could even open a writing business. And you're American - that alone puts you ahead of most everybody out there. What can the poor Indians running web development companies and trying to get international projects say then? Why can these people do it, even though they have all the disadvantages in the world? Language barriers, etc. — Agustino

I barely have the patience with this forum's busted quoting system, how do you think I'm just gonna shit a business out my ass? I have my own career goals and aspirations. If I cannot fulfill them given the systems in place that are supposed to ensure such success, then I'm not going to walk blindly into a world I know nothing about. Again, "just go start your own business, hur dur" is equivalent to the person who laughs at my unemployment and just says, "lul, you have a degree that can't land you a job? Stop complaining, there are so many jobs out there! Like, you could flip burgers at McTrump's!"

If I came to that fallow field, I'd show you how eazy peazy it is to bring in 5K/month revenue in no time - just one month. 60% time getting projects, 40% doing them yourself or giving them off to others to do in parts for you. It's really not that difficult if you're willing to work, persevere, and handle the worst imaginable emotions and thoughts ("oh I'm failing, never gonna make it, this is stupid, I'm wasting my time, oh this is so hard - never gonna learn it, my client will be mad, etc. etc.). Make 100 phone calls every day - you'll find work, after 5 days of rejection. It really all has to do with never giving up, and resisting pain and stress. — Agustino

Okay, Joel Osteen. I'm sure you'll want a tithe before you share your secret expertise, amirite?

Change this negative attitude of yours from "it's impossible" to "how can I make this work?" — Agustino

You're switching the goal posts, here. If I train myself to be a doctor and cannot be a doctor, for whatever the reasons, then I'm not making that work, I've actually just thrown away everything I spent my time doing in order for me to NOT be in the position where I have to be a slut and sell myself to any career path that enables immediate money, however much that may be. As I've tried to get across here, the reason that there are specialized fields to begin with is to make available for those that would want it a career path that is narrowed and focused on a niche, so that people don't just hop around temp jobs, minimum wage jobs, this managerial job to that next one, and so on.

Also, and since you bizarrely brought up antiquity at some point in here or in another thread, I cannot remember, consider my above example of a doctor again. Think of a Roman soldier who enlists himself, upon becoming a man, into all the preparatory means to becoming a professional soldier, but at the end of it, he's told that, "oops, sorry, we don't need you anymore. How about you become a dirty fish merchant, eh?" But see, ancient Rome didn't operate like that! If one gets training in field x, they worked in field x. That's it. No reworking, no retooling, no, "lawl, just find something else to do, hehe XD". To NOT place someone in the field that they have experience in would have been seen as complete and utter madness.

Merely because, in the US at least, there isn't a particularly good safety net in place to protect people like me and others from getting the "hehe XD" treatment, doesn't mean that being educated and trained in field x, y, or z is a waste of time, money, human resources, is the lizard Jews' plan to enslave us all, what have you. It merely means that that safety net needs to be worked on, not for people to treat those who are trying to go after specific careers they'd like to work in as being lazy, unreasonable asswagons.

Why is a degree "supposed to land you a job"? Why do you think that? — Agustino

That's the whole point of getting a degree...................

Pretty clear you've not been knee deep in the American educational system your whole life if you deny this. You're just wrong, bro.

Not true. I work in web development, database management & recently online advertising - I have no degree in any of them. Completely self taught. I hold a degree in civil engineering - so yeah. People are misguidedly obsessed with degrees - that's why they get stuck at certain levels in society and never move beyond. A degree is a fucking piece of paper - means very little. I've probably seen more incapable people with degrees than without — Agustino

Whoopty fucking do, Agu. Good luck getting a lot of jobs out there that require x, y, z certain tracks of education. Just because you've found yourself in a job without a degree that specifically pertains to that job, doesn't mean every and all degrees are pieces of paper that don't matter.

Well, why not? — Agustino

Because I need to pay the bills. You come on out to the rust belt here in the midwest and show me how eazy peazy it is to just start a business and make bank.

I'll wait. Maybe in the fallow field a couple yards from my house, (Y)

But it does take a lot of will to keep crying and waiting you know. It's not like that's the easiest thing in the world either. — Agustino

That's not what Mongrel meant, I don't think.

Implying one can choose to be born. — Noblosh

What? How?

First there's nothing wrong with working as a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper if that's where you have to start. What's all this pursuit of status and pride because of a fucking college degree? — Agustino

I'm not judging whether those jobs are good or bad in themselves, all I'm saying is that I should not "start" at those sorts of jobs after getting a degree which is supposed to land me a job that isn't burger flipping or trash collecting.

The truth is that a degree means almost nothing these days - university isn't even that hard anymore. It's not like you graduated a university in Newton's day - no you graduated a University in the day and age when it is full of drunkards, druggies, and partying - everyone knows that. Everyone knows that finishing university is nothing big anymore - it's easy, if even these crazy party goers can finish it pfff - give me a break. And rightfully so - everyone is getting a degree. If you're doing what everyone is doing you're competing against everyone, what are the chances of winning that way? How are you any different from them, why should anyone pick you and not them? How do you stand out, what makes you unique? — Agustino

This all is completely beside the point. If I get a degree, whether bachelors, masters, doctorate, in field x, and I end up washing dishes, then something is gravely wrong with the current system. But see, one cannot ignore this often times broken system because one must still get an education in order to have any reasonable hope of getting a job in the field that they'd like to work in.

A degree is only helpful in one situation. If you want to get a job in a big organisation. Then a degree is needed, not because it shows you have the skills (cause it probably doesn't show that - a degree is skill faking quite often) but rather because the people in charge of employing you need a way to justify hiring you in case you do a shit job. Then they can tell the higher up managers/bosses, "oh well, he had a degree, his paper work was all okay, he was certainly the most qualified, I couldn't have done any better!" - save their own bottoms. That's when a degree is needed. Most of this world is built on forgery and fakery, not on intelligence and skill anyway - it's all smoke and mirrors, because people are damn lazy and don't put heart in their work - they just want social status and prestige, being seen well by others. What did Napoleon say - "a soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon". But how did Napoleon himself think? "A throne is only a bench covered with velvet" — Agustino

Major generalizing here. Please refrain.

And getting a job isn't your only alternative. You could either work as self-employed (as a contractor or freelancer) or start your own business in some field you know about. The possibilities are all there, you just have to look for them and take them. You aren't entitled to a job in any field, regardless of your education. There is no entitlement in this world, you can either provide value to others, or you can't. — Agustino

Uh, no.

Do some art. Take up astrology or tarot. It's a body of symbolism that goes on and on and reveals how suicide relates to other parts of life.

Otherwise just cry and wait it out. — Mongrel

As I've remarked on this forum before, often times suicidal people don't have the will to kill themselves, yet nor do they have the will to do things like art, astrology, or tarot. Which means that, ya, crying and waiting is usually about all many can do.

Though, tho? ;)

depression is a mood, not an illness, treat it accordingly. — Noblosh

Depression as a mood is different from one who is suffering from a mental illness like major depression.

Opportunities abound. Seriously. But many people are not willing to put in the effort, and go through the fear, anxiety, etc. required to take the opportunities. They also lack discipline, will, and intelligence.

Many people expect to find a job - why? - because they think they're entitled to it. Nobody is entitled to anything. But yet many people wait on the state - give me this, give me that, make the economy better, clean my street, etc. Bullshit. — Agustino

If I graduate college with a degree that can't land me a proper job, sure, I'll still have boundless opportunities to be a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper. But, y'know, FUCK that. I feel that if I'm educated to do x or y in field z, then I'm entitled to a job in that sector, not to work some piss shit job like I could have done without a degree beforehand.

This attachment to the enjoyment of life, instead of to more objective goals - such as building a family, spiritual enlightenment, building a business, etc. - leads to chaos. — Agustino

Objective goals like those can be just as chaotic and disappointing for people,
though.

Common — Agustino

>:o

tragedies and bad luck are much rarer than we usually think. — Agustino

Seeing as life itself is a tragedy, I don't see how this is true.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39996508

In America, gays in bars get gunned down.

In Indonesia, gays in bars get arrested, >:O

There are more things in heaven and earth, jkop, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Apologies for just jumping in and critiquing (my mental quota for posting here gets filled pretty fast, but I keep reading), but how does a purely theoretical concept like this support any real argument? — Noble Dust

I was merely stating my opinion. As I say later in the post you quote, I'd never really try and argue that opinion, as it's more speculative. I could, but I won't here.

That may be true, but those in power always seem to want to hang onto it; and it doesn't seem to have much to do with theological issues. — John

Take out Islamic law and the authority of those governments lessens to a great degree.

If Islam had come first and enjoyed the geographical and cultural advantages that Christianity has, then it might well have had a more centralized structure. If Islam had been around instead of Christianity then Constantine might have chosen it to unify his empire instead of Christianity. Of course, that is really pretty empty speculation; and if Hegel is right and history is a dialectic, then Islam as we know it could not have preceded Christianity in any case. You are of course free to cite "books and articles by the dozen" or present the arguments from those in your own words. — John

We're both speculating now, lol. As I just told Noble Dust, I never meant to defend my position on this/that.

Oops, I mean SEA, as in South East Asia. Apologies, I dunno why I was writing SOE, >:O

Every attempt to analyse Islam on the basis of theology and not in terms of sociology and politics is vacuous. — StreetlightX

Why not all together? Excluding religious critique is equally vacuous in my estimation, as such would imply that Muslim doctrine plays no part in society, either at the macro or micro level, and thus doesn't deserve careful consideration.

What is your proposal for addressing it? — andrewk

I'd say this goes country by country. For example, getting away from Saudi Arabia and Qatar's fossil fuel economies would be helpful in leveraging better human rights compliance from their theocratic, Muslim governments. But, we can't seem to do that very well, so a whole lot of shit gets a pass. Similar economic shackling is involved in SEA, but there it'd be more of a grass roots effort to help educate local villages and small towns - that is, a bottom-up approach. I'm simplifying here, but I can only say so much in a forum post. I will admit to having not studied Islam in SEA as well, though, so perhaps there are nuances I've neglected :)

It's a complex issue, there can be either theocratic or ecclesiocratic states associated with religions. — John

True, but the difference between the Vatican, and even Tibet, with a Saudi Arabia, is that there really isn't any secular sphere in the former communities. There aren't secular people fartzing around in the Vatican that are bummed about the Christian law there because that's all there is. But in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, etc., there is an ever growing secular, consumerist culture that has begun to come into direct conflict with the governments that are paradoxically obtuse to such developments. I mean, if Tibet had a slave labor issue like Qatar does, then Tibet wouldn't get any sort of "pass" from me. I'd damn them to hell and back just like Qatar.

Christianity is a much older religion that Islam, so it is not surprising that predominately Christian countries have developed nearly universal separation between politics and religion earlier than Islam has. — John

Yes and no. As I said before, Muslim countries have no equivalent of the Catholic Church, a kind of guiding sub-institution to a secular state that informs society. If Islam came first, and without a largely centralized religious framework, then Muslim countries probably wouldn't have been able to progress as steadily as the Christian West has in reality. However, this all is speculation, even if I defend myself with books and articles in the dozens. My history background is reminding me not to do that, hehe.

There are also many economic, geographical and historical factors in play. Thinking about complex issues simplistically leads to simple-minded conclusions. The tendency to want to view cultural issues simplistically is driven by either laziness or negative emotion or a combination of both, and leads to conclusions which are not rationally supportable. — John

Okay, but I fail to see how I'm being overly simplistic in this thread. As I say above, I'm not ruling out any other additional angles we might use in order to better understand the whole picture concerning the topic at hand.

Find me some graph that shows a similar color scheme for Christian majority countries.

Underdeveloped African countries and Turkey? John, c'mon.

Insects outside the house - okay. Inside my house? I'm sorry, but you're fucking dead. I don't stick my hands in your beehive, so you stay out of my cheerios! ;)

If Islam as a whole has never had a substantive stance on state power, or governance in general, then I wonder why it, as a religious and new cultural movement, came out of Arabia with swords and spears in hand, looking to overthrow pretty much all existing communities that weren't willing to A) convert and/or B) be ruled under the thumb of Islamic law and governance.

I'd also say that because Islam has no equivalent of the Catholic Church, Islam is pigeon-holed into funneling most, if not all, of its religious authority into and through a governing state. Of course, the Catholic Church used the state in centuries past to enforce its religious doctrine to sometimes a large degree, but now that it doesn't have that kind of leverage and power anymore, it has relied on itself as an institution in itself to project itself out into the world. Can Islam do such a thing without the state's involvement? I don't think so. As I think Wayfarer has alluded to, a secular Islamic state is pretty fuckin' rare, especially one that is more like the United States, say, than a Sandy Arabia. Again, "we" separated church from state in the West, and the Christian churches are still very powerful in themselves, and are still able to evangelize in their own ways. I think that if you took away the theocratic leanings of many of the Muslim majority states, Islam would find itself in a super worrisome place without a centralized, and institutionalized, religious authority. At present, Islam is utilizing what ought to be secular states as the ground from which Islam is propagated, which is what I, at least, am not in favor of, and which needs to be addressed. And, while it is true that we have countries like Lebannon and Jordan who are trying their best to emulate the West, there's still a Sandy Arabia and a Qatar right around the corner.

Se7en and Shutter Island. Both tackle ethics in a number of ways, and play on notions of perception in their own ways.

My understanding of joy is that it's one of many default states we can find ourselves in. That, when nothing is happening, one is content, or comfortable, in themselves (though not, I would say, with themselves...)

I suppose that for me, I gauge whether or not I'm living a joyous life when I lay in bed at night, wherein that moment it's just me and the dark (and my snoring dog.) At present, I'm usually very conflicted, frustrated, and often times emotionally twinged. Were I to be joyous, I think I'd be able to have a calmed mind, to be able to embrace a kind of silence and stillness that, perhaps as the Christian mystics would say, is me moving more toward God. So, pleasure has nothing to do with joy.

Sometimes I feel like we should just wait - we'll die eventually and ''hopefully'' solve this ancient riddle. — TheMadFool

Yes, hopefully not go to hell, >:)