So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino

Furthermore, you began by using language of "remembered by", and now you switch to begging the question of "throwing life away". So it seems you're equating the value of life with being "remembered". This is what I have issue with.

For instance, you recently referenced working for McDonalds in a positive light. I could think of any number of reasons why working for McD's is morally reprehensible. — Noble Dust

I referenced working at McD's in a positive light in terms of that being your start. You wouldn't be like other McD's workers - you would actually care about customers, put soul into serving them, try to speak with them, be nice, kind, bear with the lack of nobilities coming from your collegues - do great work for the sake of work. And then you'd go home, and study, work, learn. Sooner or later, you'd graduate McD's.

I would venture to guess you don't have much first hand experience in understanding this ethos. — Noble Dust

Trust me - London isn't much different. I understand it. That's why I don't live in such cities.

Of course I agree with you that working for Chase, or some such, is morally reprehensible. — Noble Dust

No, I don't think their corporate "greed" is what's reprehensible. What's reprehensible is that you're there just for status. Not to work. Not to do a great job. You're there for the parties and for the sniffing of cocaine and the driving of expensive cars. That's who you sold your life to - not to work.

Do you not consider workaholism a problem? — Noble Dust

No. There's never too much work. Work sets man free.

What about those who work in the publishing industry (allowing you to read the books you read), or the art world (setting the bar on what is and isn't art, as ridiculous as it is?) I'm saying this as someone who lives here, and has my own harsh criticisms of the ethos here. — Noble Dust

The industry they work in is irrelevant. It's the hypocrisy of working for status, fast cars, women, etc. that is in question.

Sometimes life seems a gift, other times, it seems a curse. — Noble Dust

A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? Would you curse ants, worms and dust?

Furthermore, you began by using language of "remembered by", and now you switch to begging the question of "throwing life away". So it seems you're equating the value of life with being "remembered". This is what I have issue with. — Noble Dust

People who help others are remembered. People who inspire others are remembered. People who render service unto the world, and do their duty to God - they are remembered. People who care just about themselves and enjoying life - they are not remembered - they send themselves straight to the fires of hell.

The problem here is this mindset places the impetus on the person to develop those skills. The reality is that context, environment, is what enables or prevents someone from developing those skills. This means the onus is not specifically on them to make such developments, at least during developmental stages. — Noble Dust

In reality it's entirely up to the individual to seek help and develop those skills, it's on them to learn to deal with life. I'm not saying it's fair, life rarely is, but the only people that can be helped are those that are willing and able to help themselves. I'm not trying to be harsh or cold, if some people are beyond help then I feel for them, there's no judgement or condemnation on my part, but it is ultimately up to the individual in crisis because nobody can do it for them.

A "tough love" approach to the problem of suicide, like you're using here, is incredibly inappropriate. Tough love is appropriate when dealing with someone unwilling to face the cold hard reality of their situation. "Soft love", if you will (as the alternative to tough love), is appropriate when dealing with someone unable to even acknowledge their own self-worth. Survey any number of depressives or suicidals, and 99.9% will tell you they fit the latter category. Telling someone at risk of suicide that they're "taking it all far too seriously" has a high potential of that person taking you far too seriously, and ending their life. — Noble Dust

This isn't an area I know much about, I'm just spouting off on the internet, so anyone in crisis shouldn't take anything I say to heart. Contrasting my small problems with the grand sweep of the human journey and the scale of the cosmos is one of my coping mechanisms, it helps me put everything in perspective and carry on, but if that's counterproductive for someone in crisis then in the future I'll just keep that to myself because I really don't want to nudge anyone in the wrong direction.

I referenced working at McD's in a positive light in terms of that being your start. You wouldn't be like other McD's workers - you would actually care about customers, put soul into serving them, try to speak with them, be nice, kind, bear with the lack of nobilities coming from your collegues - do great work for the sake of work. And then you'd go home, and study, work, learn. Sooner or later, you'd graduate McD's. — Agustino

So the bank teller at Chase wouldn't be able to do a similarly upstanding job?

For instance, if working at McD's is positive only in the sense of "moving up", then when exactly does the moving up become reprehensible? Once you start working at Chase, or what? What exactly is this goal of moving through the ranks?

No, I don't think their corporate "greed" is what's reprehensible. — Agustino

???

What's reprehensible is that you're there just for status. Not to work. Not to do a great job. You're there for the parties and for the sniffing of cocaine and the driving of expensive cars. That's who you sold your life to - not to work. — Agustino

Once again...someone working for Chase (or more accurately), Wall Street, may have these aspirations. And that's not a good thing.

But let me try to spell it out more succinctly: There is an ethos of workaholism in NYC. The impetus for this depends on many factors. That was my original argument here. Workaholism can be a problem; for instance, in a city like NYC. You can either dispute this claim by doing some research on workaholism in NYC, or assume that, as someone who lives here, I'm on to something. *shrug* I honestly don't even care

No. There's never too much work. Work sets man free. — Agustino

..............

A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? Would you curse ants, worms and dust? — Agustino

No, but the worm may curse itself.

People who help others are remembered. People who inspire others are remembered. People who render service unto the world, and do their duty to God - they are remembered. — Agustino

Remembered...remembered...remembered...

So the bank teller at Chase wouldn't be able to do a similarly upstanding job? — Noble Dust

He would. Just that most people who choose to work there have other reasons.

then when exactly does the moving up become reprehensible? Once you start working at Chase, or what? What exactly is this goal of moving through the ranks? — Noble Dust

Never. It is a man's duty to do as much as possible for the world and for his fellow men while alive and capable. Moving up can help with that. What's the goal? Doing your duty.

Once again...someone working for Chase (or more accurately), Wall Street, may have these aspirations. And that's not a good thing. — Noble Dust

I agree. But their aspiration isn't to work. It's to drive expensive cars, and have lots of women around them.

But let me try to spell it out more succinctly: There is an ethos of workaholism in NYC. The impetus for this depends on many factors. That was my original argument here. Workaholism can be a problem; for instance, in a city like NYC. You can either dispute this claim by doing some research on workaholism in NYC, or assume that, as someone who lives here, I'm on to something. *shrug* I honestly don't even care — Noble Dust

How about you start telling me why workaholism is a problem then instead of beating around the bush and sending me to do research?

No, but the worm may curse itself. — Noble Dust

That's his problem.

Remembered...remembered...remembered... — Noble Dust

Yes, what's the issue with it? You dispute the value of helping others, inspiring others, and doing your duty to God?

This isn't an area I know much about, I'm just spouting off on the internet, so anyone in crisis shouldn't take anything I say to heart. — Sivad

Why say it, then? You clearly don't know much about suicide as a general topic if you consider this a valid response to your own ignorance.

He would. Just that most people who choose to work there have other reasons. — Agustino

Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions).

Never. It is a man's duty to do as much as possible for the world and for his fellow men while alive and capable. What's the goal? Doing your duty. — Agustino

So rising through the ranks would never lead to a position that would prohibit a "man" from doing his duty? So, doing a "man's" duty is to "do as much as possible"? Is that it?

I agree. But their aspiration isn't to work. It's to drive expensive cars, and have lots of women around them. — Agustino

>:O (you're well acquainted with this smiley and it's uses, yes?)

How about you start telling me why workaholism is a problem then instead of beating around the bush and sending me to do research? — Agustino

Here's a few links at random:

http://newyorkbehavioralhealth.com/workaholism

http://www.workaholics-anonymous.org/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/your-money/getting-workaholics-to-stop-and-recharge.html

http://nyhre.org/events/a-bio-psychosocial-perspective-on-addiction-from-heroin-to-workaholism-by-dr-gabor-mate/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/nyc-workaholism-map_n_5336981.html

That's his problem. — Agustino

Oh, so it's not your problem? What I meant by that is that some people have no sense of self-worth, based on their life experiences, which ties back to the topic of this thread. I'm one such person; one such worm. Say it to my face.

Yes, what's the issue with it? You dispute the value of helping others, inspiring others, and doing your duty to God? — Agustino

No, I dispute the value of "being remembered".

Hi Q, I'm sorry you're troubled by these thoughts, I offer you a little fellow-feeling from a fellow-Wittgenstein lover :)

I am 68 now and have had suicidal thoughts a few times in my life, but have never had the nerve to go through with it - or perhaps, the existential oomf to do it. Perhaps it's only curiosity as to what happens next that has kept me going. Life is still surprising.

When I look back, I did enjoy one series of 'talking cure' appointments, they gave me insight into myself and the expectations of others. Such things are chancey though, the woman was interesting and sympathetic and I don't know how I would have known that beforehand; I've also been through rubbish courses of cbt.

I do think that what has often brought me round is finding a focus on other things. At present I'm pretty highly focused on philosophy actually, I recommend that - There are a lot of Wittgenstein studies still to read!

But looking back, the acquisition of handy skills has stood me in good stead. 20 years ago I was an early adopter of the www - learnt a little html - and today I still do simple websites for people. When the world goes Off-key for me, I still like playing with bits of code, which is a whole other side of me that people who know me as an arty-fart don't expect.

Nine years ago I learnt the rudiments of bridge, and that's been another slow burner: something you can learn the basics of quickly, but which you can constantly enhance by practice and learning.

I hope these ideas don't seem too trivial. Part of the point of emphasising them is that for me the monster of Dark Pointlessness doesn't go away. I see him right across the room from me now. But I've found that if I dwell on his presence, the monstrosity can all too easily suck me in. Absorption in satisfying mental play is what makes me think the ugly fellow is merely amusing. My very best wishes to you.

Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions). — Noble Dust

No, not in the beginning at least. People at that level still take prestige though - they work at JPM while their friends work at McD's - in their local environment, they see themselves as kings.

So rising through the ranks would never lead to a position that would prohibit a "man" from doing his duty? — Noble Dust

No, that is just impossible. Not even death can prohibit a man from doing his duty. It's just he himself who can do that.

So, doing a "man's" duty is to "do as much as possible"? Is that it? — Noble Dust

As much as possible for others and for the world - yes.

Here's a few links at random:

http://newyorkbehavioralhealth.com/workaholism

http://www.workaholics-anonymous.org/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/your-money/getting-workaholics-to-stop-and-recharge.html

http://nyhre.org/events/a-bio-psychosocial-perspective-on-addiction-from-heroin-to-workaholism-by-dr-gabor-mate/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/nyc-workaholism-map_n_5336981.html — Noble Dust

I don't have time to check through all those links at the moment, if you could provide me a summary, like, workaholism leads to these problems:

•
•
•
•

I may be able to give you my opinion on that. That's if you want my opinion, if you don't, then no point bothering.

Oh, so it's not your problem? Idiot. You have no sense of empathy. What I meant by that is that some people have no sense of self-worth, based on their life experiences, which ties back to the topic of this thread. I'm one such person; one such worm. Say that to my face. — Noble Dust

So you'd rather have me fake that it is my problem? You'd rather have me lie to your face, and tell you that I can give you a sense of self-worth, so that you'll forever remain stuck and bound to me, like a slave and a sheep? Is that it then? Would you rather have me look at you as a child, who has no chance to rise up by himself - who is weak and helpless - maybe just what you see when you look in the mirror. But I don't - because I know there's more to you.

I'd rather tell you the truth. No one can give you a sense of self worth except yourself. When I say it's your problem - it is. Only you can solve it. It's useless to give this problem to me - I cannot help you. You blame your life experiences, this and that. Who gives a fuck? Wake up - you are not the prisoner of your past. All my life I've been an underdog, and I can honestly say that I've never lost, because I've never given up - I've never allowed others to define me, I helped myself, with the strength and capabilities that God has given me. Stop being a worm and cursing the gods for your weakness - you have been given ample means, a great intelligence - stop looking at what you don't have. I had so much stuck up against me - chronic depression, anxiety, almost failed in university, lived in a highly restrictive environment as a child, etc. etc. I don't have fingers to count the number of times I've failed and lost a battle - I don't have fingers to count the number of times I've been told I can't do it, the number of "authorities" who have told me I'll always be depressed, etc. What pulled me out? Sheer will, strength of spirit, and using the gifts and capabilities that God gave me. Certainly not crying about it, and blaming my past. I had never left the vicinity of my home until I was 16 - can you imagine? Stop crying about how hard you've had it. The rest of us didn't have an easy time either. Your happiness won't fall from the sky - God gave you the means, but he won't also give you the ends. It's up to you to achieve them - or fail - or die trying.

No, I dispute the value of "being remembered". — Noble Dust

Being remembered is just the result of providing value to the world. The value lies in what you've done - remembrance is just a sign.

Are you a psychologist? Are you a trained expert in this area? If not then maybe take it down a couple notches, eh?

Nah, I'm just a suicidal major depressive patient.

Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions). — Noble Dust

And yes, actually the last time I went to the bank, I had to do the bank teller's job for him. That's the kind of service I usually get. I usually see incapable people everywhere - people who don't give a fuck about their work, and just want a damn salary at the end of the month. If they themselves despise their work so much, why should anyone give a fuck about it?

Another example - I've changed four accountants this year - nobody has any clue what they're doing. Quite often I end up knowing more than my accountants. How is that possible? They went to school for it! They work every day in it. They have the degrees, and the fucking experience too. I studied and learned the law by myself just in one year - I'm not schooled in finance, law, etc. Why is it that I can pose problems to them that they cannot answer?! Why are they so damn stupid? Why does an uneducated brute like me know more than they do?! Why is it that I go to jail if something is wrong with my accounting procedures, and they get a free card?! Because they don't give a fuck about their job - they don't put heart in it - they don't focus on giving me value - doing great work for the sake of it. No - they just want my money - that's it. That's why they'll never make anything of themselves. It's all "me me me" - all crying about this and that, but never doing anything worthwhile. Their "work" isn't work - it's a joke. They can spend 8 hours at the office, talking with their colleagues, having fun, fucking around, flirting, and other bullshit - then they work for like 2 full hours. That's wasted time in my eyes. It is my firm conviction that God will give to those who deserve it - to those who can do great things with what they're given for others - whether this is in sharing knowledge, providing services/products, creating great art, achieving scientific breakthroughs, etc. - those who can't and don't put any effort in - they'll have everything taken away from them.

If my posts in this thread are upsetting to you then I welcome the mods to delete them. It's not my intention to disturb already troubled people. I sincerely wish you the best and hope you feel better and have a long happy life. Mea culpa.

... the monster of Dark Pointlessness doesn't go away. I see him right across the room from me now. — mcdoodle

Could you ask him from me how he feels about his life? Does he feel it is a worthwhile project to be stalking a philosopher so persistently, or does he have his own monster of Dark Pointlessness, that he is desperately keeping at bay by busying himself this way?

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(Who who, who who)
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(Woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, mm yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo)
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, mm yeah
(Who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game.

Have you experienced major depression? — Noble Dust

As in having no motivation to wake-up for days? Sure.

Nothing is necessary. But let's see - would you rather be remembered as an upstanding man who devoted himself to the betterment of mankind, who struggled and toiled each and every day for something greater than himself - or would you rather be remembered as the sloth who never rose up to the challenge, and whose sole achievement in life was casting a shadow over the earth? — Agustino

I don't care for what legacy I leave behind, I really see no point in this 'post death concern'. I also don't seek to be "part of something greater than myself", 'something great enough for me' would suffice. At last, I don't appreciate your extreme view on life and work.

In the long run, one man will rise amongst the stars and live amongst the gods, and the other one will disappear through the gates of Hades. Who will you be? — Agustino

I think we're beyond mythological metaphors. Sure, humans may colonize space, exploit the stars, do great things and become godlike but that wouldn't make them any more godly. I'll definitely be myself.

Death is coming anyway - how will you meet it? — Agustino

With indifference. If it's coming anyway, there's no point in our encounter.

Maybe you can hear the footsteps - even now, approaching. It's coming - and you can't escape. Will it find you snuggled up in a corner, begging for mercy - or will it find you fighting to your last breath, determined through sheer will not to give death the victory of crushing your spirit? — Agustino

Spare me your motivational speech already... Death is just an event, not a combatant. Again, there's no use in fearing that which can not be prevented, therefore in the face of death, I'm fearless, it's only logical.

The truth is - they've never worked. Not real work. It's always been fake work — Agustino

I'm sorry but this is the no true scotsman fallacy.

There's never too much work. Work sets man free. — Agustino

Free from responsibility you mean. After all, the one whose sole purpose is to work is not concerned with the morality of it at all because work itself is absolute.

A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? — Agustino

So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino

So... Who the heaven would waste their time to gift us? You're not being consistent.

What's the goal? Doing your duty. — Agustino

That's not a goal, goal implies ambition and ambition implies desire which you condemn.

In reality it's entirely up to the individual to seek help and develop those skills, it's on them to learn to deal with life (...) but it is ultimately up to the individual in crisis because nobody can do it for them — Sivad

Oh, c'mon, don't try to rationalize helping others away. In reality, people depend upon each other.


To the 3 of you, it seems to me you've all developed a harmful locus of control, 2 of you internal, one external. If you would think about it logically, about what the social contract entails and what responsibility is, then you might just find it nonsensical.

With indifference. If it's coming anyway, there's no point in our encounter. — Noblosh

Words. Let's see you do that.

Death is just an event, not a combatant. Again, there's no use in fearing that which can not be prevented, therefore in the face of death, I'm fearless, it's only logical. — Noblosh

Logical, but is it also real?! Logic alone does not move men. Logic alone does not dispel fear, nor does it give you the courage to live. Logic alone is vacuous and empty of any and all meaning - it is a sheer nothing. So no, I don't believe - if I am to take you at your word - that you are fearless because of logic. There are deeper and more powerful emotional reasons why you are fearless, if indeed you are.

Free from responsibility you mean. After all, the one whose sole purpose is to work is not concerned with the morality of it at all because work itself is absolute. — Noblosh

Yes, if you add assumptions that I made no mention of, sure.

I'm sorry but this is the no true scotsman fallacy. — Noblosh

Pff, give me a break with these childhood posts. I have over 4000 posts here (and who knows how many thousands at the previous forum) - I'm well aware of what's a fallacy and what's not.

I think we're beyond mythological metaphors. Sure, humans may colonize space, exploit the stars, do great things and become godlike but that wouldn't make them any more godly. I'll definitely be myself. — Noblosh

Right, and colonising space, exploiting stars, etc. isn't mythological >:O

So... Who the heaven would waste their time to gift us? You're not being consistent. — Noblosh

Someone who loved you, even if you were a worm? There's no point hating a worm, but there is a point in loving a worm (or any other creature). There is an asymmetry there.

That's not a goal, goal implies ambition and ambition implies desire which you condemn. — Noblosh

No, I don't condemn desire. I condemn desire for that which is evil. I don't understand why you've made the assumption I condemn desire.

Do some art. Take up astrology or tarot. It's a body of symbolism that goes on and on and reveals how suicide relates to other parts of life.

Otherwise just cry and wait it out.

Words. Let's see you do that. — Agustino

Right now? No thanks!

Logical, but is it also real?! — Agustino

But is death real? We use logic to determine what's real and fearlessness is the logical stance in the face of the uncertainty of death. You can doubt me and my logic all you want, it doesn't make me not right.

Yes, if you add assumptions that I made no mention of, sure. — Agustino

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just explaining you the implications of your statement and overall belief.

Pff, give me a break with these childhood posts. I have over 4000 posts here (and who knows how many thousands at the previous forum) - I'm well aware of what's a fallacy and what's not. — Agustino

Pooh-pooh, red herring and argument from authority.

Right, and colonising space, exploiting stars, etc. isn't mythological — Agustino

Of course they are. they have become myths in our culture.

There's no point hating a worm, but there is a point in loving a worm (or any other creature). — Agustino

I see no point in either. A worm doesn't have the capacity to reciprocate.

No, I don't condemn desire. I condemn desire for that which is evil. — Agustino

But that's arbirtary so I guess you condemn evil overall. But "Doing your duty." is still not a goal in itself.
Duty implies obligation, not desire. So to what end do you desire to accomplish your obligations?

But is death real? We use logic to determine what's real and fearlessness is the logical stance in the face of the uncertainty of death. You can doubt me and my logic all you want, it doesn't make me not right. — Noblosh

No, we don't use logic to determine what's real at all. Logic doesn't tell us ANYTHING about what's real and what's not real. Logic helps us relate different facts of existence. It doesn't tell you if there's a pink elephant in your back garden right now, or if unicorns exist somewhere in the Universe. All knowledge comes from the senses, and is merely processed with logic. Is death real? Yes, at least in an ordinary sense, I've witnessed it, and I know it's real.

But "Doing your duty." is still not a goal in itself.
Duty implies obligation, not desire. — Noblosh

Your goal is whatever you choose. If you choose to be a righteous man, then your goal becomes your duty.

Implying one can choose to be born. — Noblosh

What? How?

First there's nothing wrong with working as a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper if that's where you have to start. What's all this pursuit of status and pride because of a fucking college degree? — Agustino

I'm not judging whether those jobs are good or bad in themselves, all I'm saying is that I should not "start" at those sorts of jobs after getting a degree which is supposed to land me a job that isn't burger flipping or trash collecting.

The truth is that a degree means almost nothing these days - university isn't even that hard anymore. It's not like you graduated a university in Newton's day - no you graduated a University in the day and age when it is full of drunkards, druggies, and partying - everyone knows that. Everyone knows that finishing university is nothing big anymore - it's easy, if even these crazy party goers can finish it pfff - give me a break. And rightfully so - everyone is getting a degree. If you're doing what everyone is doing you're competing against everyone, what are the chances of winning that way? How are you any different from them, why should anyone pick you and not them? How do you stand out, what makes you unique? — Agustino

This all is completely beside the point. If I get a degree, whether bachelors, masters, doctorate, in field x, and I end up washing dishes, then something is gravely wrong with the current system. But see, one cannot ignore this often times broken system because one must still get an education in order to have any reasonable hope of getting a job in the field that they'd like to work in.

A degree is only helpful in one situation. If you want to get a job in a big organisation. Then a degree is needed, not because it shows you have the skills (cause it probably doesn't show that - a degree is skill faking quite often) but rather because the people in charge of employing you need a way to justify hiring you in case you do a shit job. Then they can tell the higher up managers/bosses, "oh well, he had a degree, his paper work was all okay, he was certainly the most qualified, I couldn't have done any better!" - save their own bottoms. That's when a degree is needed. Most of this world is built on forgery and fakery, not on intelligence and skill anyway - it's all smoke and mirrors, because people are damn lazy and don't put heart in their work - they just want social status and prestige, being seen well by others. What did Napoleon say - "a soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon". But how did Napoleon himself think? "A throne is only a bench covered with velvet" — Agustino

Major generalizing here. Please refrain.

And getting a job isn't your only alternative. You could either work as self-employed (as a contractor or freelancer) or start your own business in some field you know about. The possibilities are all there, you just have to look for them and take them. You aren't entitled to a job in any field, regardless of your education. There is no entitlement in this world, you can either provide value to others, or you can't. — Agustino

Uh, no.

Do some art. Take up astrology or tarot. It's a body of symbolism that goes on and on and reveals how suicide relates to other parts of life.

Otherwise just cry and wait it out. — Mongrel

As I've remarked on this forum before, often times suicidal people don't have the will to kill themselves, yet nor do they have the will to do things like art, astrology, or tarot. Which means that, ya, crying and waiting is usually about all many can do.

Could you ask him from me how he feels about his life? Does he feel it is a worthwhile project to be stalking a philosopher so persistently, or does he have his own monster of Dark Pointlessness, that he is desperately keeping at bay by busying himself this way? — unenlightened

Actually I rather like the irony when he says he's the other fellow, not Lucifer, as in Randy Newman's 'That's why I love mankind (God's song)':

I burn down your cities
how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say
how blessed are we
You all must be crazy
to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me
That's why I love mankind

Rather do something (or try to do something) you can be proud of, and be an upstanding character. — Agustino

I think I did that. Though probably much closer to the grave than you are (at 70+) I haven't ceased trying to achieve, and be an upstanding character.

You know the fable of the grasshopper and the ant. You are exhorting the grasshopper to be more like the dull drudgery drenched ant. But, you know, the drudgery of the ant doesn't survive the grave's doom any better than the joyful music of the grasshopper who won't survive winter. But what is better? joyful music in the summer or drudgery all the way to the grave?

What's the point of enjoying yourself BC, you'll end up in the same grave, and it will be as if the enjoyment never existed. — Agustino

The same thing can be said for everything that humans are or might be. "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless." Ecclesiastes.

From one perspective, everything is meaningless. From a slightly different angle, the things of life have great meaning, whether they endure to the grave - or survive the grave - or not.

That song makes me cry.

I'm saying is that I should not "start" at those sorts of jobs after getting a degree which is supposed to land me a job that isn't burger flipping or trash collecting. — Heister Eggcart

Why is a degree "supposed to land you a job"? Why do you think that?

one must still get an education in order to have any reasonable hope of getting a job in the field that they'd like to work in. — Heister Eggcart

Not true. I work in web development, database management & recently online advertising - I have no degree in any of them. Completely self taught. I hold a degree in civil engineering - so yeah. People are misguidedly obsessed with degrees - that's why they get stuck at certain levels in society and never move beyond. A degree is a fucking piece of paper - means very little. I've probably seen more incapable people with degrees than without :P

Uh, no. — Heister Eggcart

Well, why not?

I think I did that. Though probably much closer to the grave than you are (at 70+) I haven't ceased trying to achieve, and be an upstanding character. — Bitter Crank

*takes hat off* :) Yes, I respect you. You have your principles - not the same as mine, but at least you have the integrity of sticking to them - which is great!

But what is better? joyful music in the summer or drudgery all the way to the grave? — Bitter Crank

Heh - I don't take work to be drudgery. It's rewarding doing something useful for others - including making music for that matter. I haven't said that making music in the street is better or worse than assembling parts in a manufacturing plant on the conveyor belt for example.

The same thing can be said for everything that humans are or might be. "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless." Ecclesiastes. — Bitter Crank

Yes, but I actually disagree with that part. There are some things - the spiritual things - which are not meaningless. Doing great work is a spiritual undertaking of benefiting your fellow men - that's something to be proud of, that not even death can take away (the fact you've done good).

Which means that, ya, crying and waiting is usually about all many can do. — Heister Eggcart

But it does take a lot of will to keep crying and waiting you know. It's not like that's the easiest thing in the world either.

Why is a degree "supposed to land you a job"? Why do you think that? — Agustino

That's the whole point of getting a degree...................

Pretty clear you've not been knee deep in the American educational system your whole life if you deny this. You're just wrong, bro.

Not true. I work in web development, database management & recently online advertising - I have no degree in any of them. Completely self taught. I hold a degree in civil engineering - so yeah. People are misguidedly obsessed with degrees - that's why they get stuck at certain levels in society and never move beyond. A degree is a fucking piece of paper - means very little. I've probably seen more incapable people with degrees than without — Agustino

Whoopty fucking do, Agu. Good luck getting a lot of jobs out there that require x, y, z certain tracks of education. Just because you've found yourself in a job without a degree that specifically pertains to that job, doesn't mean every and all degrees are pieces of paper that don't matter.

Well, why not? — Agustino

Because I need to pay the bills. You come on out to the rust belt here in the midwest and show me how eazy peazy it is to just start a business and make bank.

I'll wait. Maybe in the fallow field a couple yards from my house, (Y)

But it does take a lot of will to keep crying and waiting you know. It's not like that's the easiest thing in the world either. — Agustino

That's not what Mongrel meant, I don't think.

That's the whole point of getting a degree................... — Heister Eggcart

Who told you that? The corrupt educational system? Of course they did! That's the basic principle of selling anything, convincing your customer (read victim) that he needs your product or service - or otherwise he's fucked.

Pretty clear you've not been knee deep in the American educational system your whole life if you deny this. You're just wrong, bro. — Heister Eggcart

Oh I am well acquainted with educational systems through out the world. They all say the same shit. I too believed that shit, until I had my degree, and I saw that it really was no big deal. I wasn't actually smarter or more qualified to do anything because of my degree. I really understood that despite getting my degree with honors, I was completely unqualified in truth for any real work. I really felt I didn't know much. And so I understood that, despite them praising you and shit - university is really useless.

Whoopty fucking do, Agu. Good luck getting a lot of jobs out there that require x, y, z certain tracks of education. Just because you've found yourself in a job without a degree that specifically pertains to that job, doesn't mean every and all degrees are pieces of paper that don't matter. — Heister Eggcart

Oh, so you think I just magically landed in such a job, completely by accident right?

Because I need to pay the bills. You come on out to the rust belt here in the midwest and show me how eazy peazy it is to just start a business and make bank. — Heister Eggcart

>:O >:O >:O Unbelievable mate, you're complaining?! If I can start a business and make money in a fucking ex-communist country, full of corruption, bureaucracy and crooked laws which squash small businesses and help only big oligarchs, why can't you do it in the greatest capitalist country on Earth?! Just the mere fact you're American => that's instant credit worldwide.

And who said you have to let your location hold you back? You don't even need to start a bricks and mortar business. You could do something internet based - work anywhere in the world from this "rust belt" middle of nowhere place, so long as you have a computer and an internet connection. If you ran, for example, a web design agency - you could get your projects anywhere in the world. If you ran a digital marketing agency - same shit. I guess you could even open a writing business. And you're American - that alone puts you ahead of most everybody out there. What can the poor Indians running web development companies and trying to get international projects say then? Why can these people do it, even though they have all the disadvantages in the world? Language barriers, etc.

If I came to that fallow field, I'd show you how eazy peazy it is to bring in 5K/month revenue in no time - just one month. 60% time getting projects, 40% doing them yourself or giving them off to others to do in parts for you. It's really not that difficult if you're willing to work, persevere, and handle the worst imaginable emotions and thoughts ("oh I'm failing, never gonna make it, this is stupid, I'm wasting my time, oh this is so hard - never gonna learn it, my client will be mad, etc. etc.). Make 100 phone calls every day - you'll find work, after 5 days of rejection. It really all has to do with never giving up, and resisting pain and stress.

Change this negative attitude of yours from "it's impossible" to "how can I make this work?"

Me too. I was driving into Manchester tonight - no trains cos of the suicide bomber - and a news story on the radio of a man helping out a lost little girl at the Ariana Grande concert - just got me in the tear ducts -

Who told you that? The corrupt educational system? Of course they did! That's the basic principle of selling anything, convincing your customer (read victim) that he needs your product or service - or otherwise he's fucked. — Agustino

Would you see a doctor without them having previously gone through all the necessary educational and professional hoops that warrant them being awarded a medical license? Western education is not about eliminating fuck-ups, or mistakes, or, absolutely, every person who shouldn't be what they have a "degree" in. What it does do is provide a reasonably objective foundation from which people are educated and trained in various fields and specialties in order to work a job suited to those emphases. That said, you and I can debate how that objective foundation can be wrought, but the idea itself is a sound one, and any argument against it would suggest to me that that person is sipping some mad koolaid.

Oh I am well acquainted with educational systems through out the world. They all say the same shit. I too believed that shit, until I had my degree, and I saw that it really was no big deal. I wasn't actually smarter or more qualified to do anything because of my degree. I really understood that despite getting my degree with honors, I was completely unqualified in truth for any real work. I really felt I didn't know much. And so I understood that, despite them praising you and shit - university is really useless. — Agustino

No, I don't think you are. Is it the university's fault that you got an education just to be a construction worker? Again, you're trying to pigeon-hole your failed education experience into a macro problem for everyone, which is dubious thinking. In fact, I'm going to start a thread about this topic, since none of this has anything to do with Question's OP.

Oh, so you think I just magically landed in such a job, completely by accident right? — Agustino

I don't know how you got your job, or any job you've had in the past. If you're gonna hipfire how simple everything is, don't be so bummed when someone like me slams you with equally dismissive replies.

Unbelievable mate, you're complaining?! If I can start a business and make money in a fucking ex-communist country, full of corruption, bureaucracy and crooked laws which squash small businesses and help only big oligarchs, why can't you do it in the greatest capitalist country on Earth?! Just the mere fact you're American => that's instant credit worldwide. — Agustino

Credit enough not to land me a decent job, yeah. I'd be pretty well off if I could only tap into my Americaness, and my whiteness, and my maleness, and my <insert any other supposed privilege>

You could do something internet based - work anywhere in the world from this "rust belt" middle of nowhere place, so long as you have a computer and an internet connection. If you ran, for example, a web design agency - you could get your projects anywhere in the world. If you ran a digital marketing agency - same shit. I guess you could even open a writing business. And you're American - that alone puts you ahead of most everybody out there. What can the poor Indians running web development companies and trying to get international projects say then? Why can these people do it, even though they have all the disadvantages in the world? Language barriers, etc. — Agustino

I barely have the patience with this forum's busted quoting system, how do you think I'm just gonna shit a business out my ass? I have my own career goals and aspirations. If I cannot fulfill them given the systems in place that are supposed to ensure such success, then I'm not going to walk blindly into a world I know nothing about. Again, "just go start your own business, hur dur" is equivalent to the person who laughs at my unemployment and just says, "lul, you have a degree that can't land you a job? Stop complaining, there are so many jobs out there! Like, you could flip burgers at McTrump's!"

If I came to that fallow field, I'd show you how eazy peazy it is to bring in 5K/month revenue in no time - just one month. 60% time getting projects, 40% doing them yourself or giving them off to others to do in parts for you. It's really not that difficult if you're willing to work, persevere, and handle the worst imaginable emotions and thoughts ("oh I'm failing, never gonna make it, this is stupid, I'm wasting my time, oh this is so hard - never gonna learn it, my client will be mad, etc. etc.). Make 100 phone calls every day - you'll find work, after 5 days of rejection. It really all has to do with never giving up, and resisting pain and stress. — Agustino

Okay, Joel Osteen. I'm sure you'll want a tithe before you share your secret expertise, amirite?

Change this negative attitude of yours from "it's impossible" to "how can I make this work?" — Agustino

You're switching the goal posts, here. If I train myself to be a doctor and cannot be a doctor, for whatever the reasons, then I'm not making that work, I've actually just thrown away everything I spent my time doing in order for me to NOT be in the position where I have to be a slut and sell myself to any career path that enables immediate money, however much that may be. As I've tried to get across here, the reason that there are specialized fields to begin with is to make available for those that would want it a career path that is narrowed and focused on a niche, so that people don't just hop around temp jobs, minimum wage jobs, this managerial job to that next one, and so on.

Also, and since you bizarrely brought up antiquity at some point in here or in another thread, I cannot remember, consider my above example of a doctor again. Think of a Roman soldier who enlists himself, upon becoming a man, into all the preparatory means to becoming a professional soldier, but at the end of it, he's told that, "oops, sorry, we don't need you anymore. How about you become a dirty fish merchant, eh?" But see, ancient Rome didn't operate like that! If one gets training in field x, they worked in field x. That's it. No reworking, no retooling, no, "lawl, just find something else to do, hehe XD". To NOT place someone in the field that they have experience in would have been seen as complete and utter madness.

Merely because, in the US at least, there isn't a particularly good safety net in place to protect people like me and others from getting the "hehe XD" treatment, doesn't mean that being educated and trained in field x, y, or z is a waste of time, money, human resources, is the lizard Jews' plan to enslave us all, what have you. It merely means that that safety net needs to be worked on, not for people to treat those who are trying to go after specific careers they'd like to work in as being lazy, unreasonable asswagons.