So called "disinformation" is rife among topics that aren't to be discussed publically. It's the censorship itself that creates the atmosphere.

Where do we have disinformation? To name a few topics:
- Covid
- Ukraine
- US elections

Just so happens to be the topics in which there are certain opinions we're not allowed to have. That last one of course being very relevant to this topic.

Propaganda can only exist in an environment of censorship, and not in one of free discourse. I see your point, but the cure is not less free speech or more censorship.

And the fact that the only institution who could be appointed to wield such power is the one we have just agreed is utterly and irredeemably corrupt makes it even less of an appealing option.

I know the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" is a very popular trope among censorship enthousiasts, but you're quoting someone who sought to silence opposition to the draft during World War I. A nice concrete example of the slippery slope down which that argument leads.

Free speech is about the freedom to share any genuinely-held belief in the context of a civil discussion. It was never about yelling fire in crowded theaters, freedom to slander, lie and deceive, or to threaten and incite violence, etc.

To pretend that it was reveals a keenness for limiting free speech.


I don't know if anyone has been paying attention, but the collusion between government and big tech that Musk has exposed via his takeover of Twitter is hard proof of the complete failure of the entire western governmental structure (which is by and large based on and led by the United States's governmental structure).

Of course it simply proved what most already suspected, but to have it out there like that - quite confronting. It's great that it happened. Thank god for 'free speech absolutist' Elon Musk. With outright denial out of the way, the only flavors that are left are to take strong opposition to this unholy alliance between government and big tech or to defend evil.

I wonder which the denizens of this forum will choose.

Article 2(1)

The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.

:roll:

Really? — ssu

Doesn't then being a member of the United Nations mean a lack of sovereignty? — ssu

The United Nations is completely different from NATO or the EU. Nations do not give up any sovereignty to the UN. It's basically a public forum for states.

At least for me joining a club voluntarily or some goon forcing by violence to join a club are two different things. And so are the terms just what I give up in joining those clubs, obviously. Besides, Russia is annexing parts of Ukraine, so that is totally different than just joining the CSTO, for example. — ssu

The suggestion was given that there was any way that Ukraine would come out of this conflict neutral, sovereign, independent, free, etc.

To that I said, it is practically impossible, since it must accept overlordship from either Washington or Moscow. Whether it accepts overlordship voluntarily or by force doesn't matter to the final state of affairs.

An independent, neutral Ukraine is a fantasy now, except for the unlikely case in which the US and Russia agree on reinstating Ukraine as a neutral buffer between NATO and Russia. This would be the ideal outcome to the conflict, but alas a fantasy.

No, giving up one's sovereignty voluntarily or at gunpoint results in exactly the same situation: a lack of sovereignty.

Russia cannot possibly use nukes just to stop a nation from freely joining a trade group like the EU, but moves towards NATO membership could possibly trigger a nuclear response. — Olivier5

Russian doctrine is clear, attacks on the motherland will illicit a nuclear response. This wouldn't qualify. — Benkei

Russia's response to Ukraine joining NATO has been to invade Ukraine and annex parts of land. I would not be so certain that Russia wouldn't use nuclear weapons to defend the parts of land it now occupies. So it does seem at least plausible that Russia is willing to resort to nuclear weapons in this conflict.

In a new interview John Mearsheimer actually argues that the chance of nuclear war is non-trivial, and that the bar for Russia to use nuclear weapons is lower than we think because, A. the Ukrainians cannot retaliate, and B. the US/NATO would likely not risk general nuclear war over Ukraine.

Mearsheimer even theorizes that nuclear weapons use by the Russians would end the war. I'll leave it up to you whether you agree with that assessment.

It wasn't the reason for this war because Ukraine had zero chance of joining NATO before Feb 2022. — Olivier5

Zero chance?

The US and NATO have been holding joint military exercises almost every year with the Ukrainian military. They were a NATO/US ally in all but name.

- 2015, Fearless Guardian
- 2017, Rapid Trident
- 2018, Sea Breeze
- 2018, Clear Sky
- 2019, Rapid Trident
- 2020, Rapid Trident
- 2021, Rapid Trident

Name me one other country that the US military has joint military exercises with every year, that is not a US ally.

The purpose of the Ukrainian resistance is precisely to tell the Russians to mind their own busines. — Olivier5

How's that been working out?

That countries have voluntarily chosen to join these institutions makes it different. — ssu

It exactly doesn't make it different. Countries that join NATO or the EU voluntarily give up a great deal of sovereignty, and they give up even more by neglecting their defense, thus making themselves completely dependent on the USA.

When Bush invaded Iraq, many NATO countries starting with France and Germany didn't participate.

When Obama wanted to attack Syria, his NATO allies said no. — ssu

Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria all featured a great deal of NATO participation. Those conflicts weren't remotely related to the NATO mission statement, nor did many of these countries have any type of stake in those conflicts. That should tell you enough about the considerable sway the Americans have.

NATO countries that do not participate in America's wars, even if those wars aren't related to their own defensive situation, get no say in what happens within NATO. However, by participating in America's wars NATO countries can buy their influence.

↑ this is propaganda'ish'esque, hyperbolic spin (on one page alone, like on a mission) — jorndoe

You got me, I'm a Kremlin propagandist. :rofl:

No, but in all seriousness, people in this thread need to understand the actual situation instead of this fantasy in which the United States is some spreader of peace and love, and the foolish notion that countries in the EU and NATO are sovereign.

They are not. When the US says jump, they jump. They have no choice. There's not a country in Europe that has a military capable of defending itself, and people should have no illusions about what that means for the power relation between the US and its "allies" (vassals).

Illusions sometimes need to be dispelled using harsh words.

.. , but it totally falls to be similar with the case of an autocratic dictatorship ... — ssu

I never said they were similar. I said one shouldn't harbor illusions about Ukraine being a sovereign, independent state if it enters the EU or NATO, like none of the member states of those institutions are.

If you want to make the case that American overlordship is preferable that's fine.

It doesn't really matter, since if the new status quo doesn't in some way satisfy the Russians, it's going to lead to war again sooner or later.

That's rather theoretical. — Olivier5

It's essentially the mission statement of the EU. The fact that the entire EU trips over Hungary and Orban says enough.

The US controls NATO. NATO countries are vassals of the US, because they rely completely on the US to keep them safe.

The EU demands an even greater sacrifice of autonomy, because it also gets legislative power inside EU countries. It's purpose is/was to become a "United States of Europe", essentially, of course still completely dependent on the United States for protection.

So lets not harbor illusions about countries in NATO or the EU being sovereign. They are lapdogs of the United States (or Brussels, which is again a lapdog of the United States), just like Belarus is Russia's lapdog.

That one may prefer the US over Russia is fine. I never said their overlordship would be the same, but that the choice Ukraine has now is overlordship either by the US or Russia.

From the EU's own website:

The European Union (EU) is a unique economic and political union between 27 European countries.

[...]

What began as a purely economic union has evolved into an organisation spanning many different policy areas – from climate, environment and health to external relations and security, justice and migration.

Source: https://op.europa.eu/webpub/com/eu-what-it-is/en/

The paradox is that censoring holocaust denial actually lends credibility to holocaust denial in the minds of some people.

Instead let such discussion take place in the open, where ridiculous ideas can openly be shot down and ridiculed.

That's the power of free speech.

As a matter of financial gain? (Russia and the UK blame each other) — jorndoe

If the UK did it, they clearly didn't do so on their own initiative. They wouldn't take a dump on their own initiative. Likely the US orchestrated it, and the UK carried it out.

The case for Russia doing it themselves seems unlikely.

EU membership should be fine. — Olivier5

Maybe? I'm not sure what the Russian stance is on EU membership. Their gripe seems mostly with NATO membership.

"I'll nuke you if you join the wrong trading group" sounds rather absurd. — Olivier5

The EU is not just a trading group. Countries give up a lot of autonomy to Brussels.

My comment was specifically directed at stating that where a conspiracy theory has been alleged and there is not sufficient evidence that the underlying act occurred, it is appropriate to call out the the theory as a conspiracy theory in order to undermine the credibility of the speaker. — Hanover

And my point was that this practice of stigmatization is being weaponized by those in power to silence critical voices.

Such is a conspiracy theory in itself. — Hanover

That's not a conspiracy theory where I live. That's proven fact.

We have a government actively trying to deplatform and intimidate critical voices.

I assume you live in the United States, so are you unaware of what for example the CIA gets up to? Those things are all publicly available.

Isn't it common practice in the United States to threaten dissidents and whistleblowers to such an extent they have to find amnesty in another country? What do you think that is?

Ok, but both of those would probably be unacceptable to Russia.

Whatever the solution is going to be, it's going to have to appease both big players in this game: the USA and Russia.

I don't know how else a future-proof solution could ever be reached. Even if one side manages to defeat the other and simply impose a new status quo, it's going to be a flashpoint for decades in the future.

Don't get me wrong, that would be the best outcome, however it is simply not going to happen.

A neutral Ukraine can only happen if both Russia and the US agree to reinstating Ukraine as a neutral buffer as it was before 2013.

The United States will never agree to that, since the whole point of this crisis was to expand the US sphere of influence into Ukraine. A neutral Ukraine would be a defeat for the US and a nullification of billions of dollars spent over the course of at least a decade.

Further, after 2014 and the invasion of Ukraine the US will not trust Russia to respect Ukrainian neutrality. LIkewise, after 2013 Russia can no longer trust the US to respect Ukrainian neutrality.

Probably, yes. But we do trust the mods of this site by and large, don't we? They have opinions, but when they get out of line they are reprimanded or even banned.

edit: and they are 100% essential, too — ToothyMaw

We can trust them because ultimately the function of this forum is benign.

Nothing in mankind's history suggests governments deserve that kind of trust ruling over the lives and rights of people.

I'd prefer the now antiquated concept of self regulation, where news outlets adhere to journalistic standards. That used to be a thing. — Hanover

I agree this is the best. But that also requires an audience that appreciates those things.

A good question would be why modern societies have become less critical and more ignorant, and thus more receptive to poor journalism and propaganda.

Government censorship is an evil to be sure, but so is government propoganda. Should Trump or Biden or their minions post false information, is that not propoganda? — Hanover

The two often go hand-in-hand and they go hand-in-hand today. Propaganda doesn't work without first silencing the voice of reason.

Today, government censorship is more insidious since it is hidden. It escapes the common eye. Things aren't outright banned, because governments understand they can't get away with that anymore.

Instead they refuse to give or outright try to deny critical voices a platform (or a large enough platform to make a difference). Critical voices are denounced under the umbrella term "conspiracy theorist" to undermine their credibility and keep them from reaching large crowds, etc.

We all understand the role of government narratives in the modern day, but "government narratives" are nothing but propaganda and censorship under a different guise.

In a healthy society the media provides critical, well-balanced coverage. However, the media are all bought and paid for by those it should be scrutinizing. It would be a mistake to believe we do not live in an environment of propaganda and censorship on par with humanity's blackest pages.

That would just shift the power to whoever appoints the advisors.

Hanover says he doesn't think the government should necessarily enforce the ethical standards he proposes. — ToothyMaw

And he would be right. So who else would be given that power? Which ever way you wish to go about limiting free speech, the cure is worse than the disease.

The position I'm taking, and your thoughts and objections to this is what I am seeking, is that free speech absolutism (a title Elon Musk has given himself) is not an ideal, but places the considerable power of the press in undeserving hands, whose objective isn't to seek higher truths and dispense with ignorance, but is for their own personal gain and self-promotion. — Hanover

The alternative is to put the power to limit free speech in undeserving hands - those of the government. And rights were enshrined into constitutions and human rights declarations exactly because governments could not be trusted with protecting them.

There are some indications that much of what has happened in Ukraine since 2013 was premeditated by the United States.

The United States has profited immensely from the cut gas ties between Europe and Russia. It is likely the United States orchestrated the sabotage of Nord Stream.

Interestingly, Hunter Biden notoriously participated on the board of Burisma, Ukraine's largest private oil and gas producer.

There seems to be a red line in this story, and that is the United States' interest in European gas and its gas dependency.

But for you it doesn't matter if Putin is control of Ukraine or the Ukrainians are in control of Ukraine, hence this conversation has utterly no meaning. — ssu

The choice has been between Russia or the United States to control Ukraine.

Before the United States aimed for regime change in Ukraine, Ukraine was as independent as it can hope to be given its sensitive geopolitical position.

It's the United States who sought to change that in 2013.

Fiat currencies are legal tender. We get paid in it, we pay our taxes in it, and I can go to the shops and buy milk with it. — Michael

It's value is controlled by whoever controls the printing press.

Scarcity is perhaps the most important characteristic of money, and fiat currency does not check that box.

I think you need to be more honest and accept that it's just a get rich quick scheme that some get lucky with. — Michael

The fact is that that is exactly what it is not. The hordes of people with zero market understanding who voluntarily jumped on the crypto bandwagon and treated it like it was a way to "get rich quick" have no one but themselves to blame. Investing isn't for everyone, and it certainly isn't for the ignorant.

It has nothing to do with the inherent value of cryptocurrency - an independent, scarce means of exchanging value.

Cryptocurrency has more characteristics of actual money than FIAT currency has, so what can I say.

Well, that was the big hype period which was obviously not representative of the actual value of Bitcoin. I don't think anyone with a bit of understanding would think that was a good time to buy in.

Isn't that being devalued by about ~10% per year as we speak?

Cryptocurrencies are far more volatile than normal stock, and unlike normal stock have no real underlying value. It's all just a confidence scam. — Michael

FIAT currency is the real confidence scam.

The underlying value of cryptocurrency is that it is a scarce, independent means of exchanging value, much like gold and other precious metals. In fact, you'll find that a lot of people who invest in gold also invest in cryptocurrency for many of the same reasons.

With financial repression looming on the horizon, and irresponsible economic policies running rampant, I'd say there are very good reasons to invest in both. For one, it's a lot easier to pay for things with cryptocurrency as opposed to gold. I'd stick with Bitcoin though.

There are many larger governments in terms of spending, taxation, laws, public sectors, and government bodies per capita. — Isaac

A country can have free citizens at the expense of the rest of the world (the United States), and that doesn't make its violence in any way benign.

In the case of some unassuming country like Norway, it's citizens are free, it's government is "large", yet where is the violence?

It outsources its violence to the United States, and thus is complicit, and is not a "non-violent" nation. Complicit not just in the violence the United States has to carry out to guarantee its safety, but complicit also in the violence the United States has to carry out to put itself in a position where it can do that.

There is no link between size of government and violence. — Isaac

Clearly there is, but you need to get the idea out of your head that the United States is somehow an example of a small government!

It's tendrils span the globe. There's not a larger government in the world.

It feels like you don't quite get what it means that every person on Earth is threatened with the annihilation of themselves and everything they hold dear, every day of their lives, by governments.

The sort of coercive violence a government commits in imposing laws does not beget more violence. If it did you'd see a correlation between the size of government and the levels of violence. There is no such link. In fact it's moderately the opposite. — Isaac

It does. It simply outsources, exports or imports it. That's why, as governments have grown larger and more powerful over the course of history, their propensity for violence has likewise grown. Now we're at the point that every person on Earth is threatened every day of their lives by violence.

The link is clearly there, but you don't like to see it.

You argued that, in my well-poisoning example, the people ought not coerce the well-poisoner with threat of violence because "violence begets violence". — Isaac

You cannot reduce my argument to "violence begets violence".

You are arguing that violence breeds violence. You are including in "violence" the sorts of government coercion involved in taxation, regulation and public sector work. — Isaac

I never stated it like that.

My point is that powerful governments (which to exist must apply large amounts of violence) wreak the most destruction on mankind. That some governments apply that violence to their own people, and others apply it to people in other countries, does not change their violent nature.

Look at all the violence the United States exports - arms industry, international conflicts, etc.

And the violence it imports and outsources. Much of what is consumed in the United States is made in, for example, China. The gap in your logic should be obvious.

When push comes to shove, the United States also has no problem forcibly making its citizens complicit in overseas genocides in third-world countries.

Is this your idea of a "low coercion" government?

Where do you get the idea that the US has "very low measures of government coercion"?

Where do you think it gets all those trillions of dollars from? They don't grow on trees you know.

The most powerful governments in the world, US / NATO, China and Russia all are holding the world at nuclear gunpoint (and they should all be coloured pitch black).

I'd say that's supports my position, rather than undermines it.