In answer to your question "One question may be what are the benefits and disadvantages of throwing the idea of 'God' aside in philosophy?"

I want to go back to your statement, "The worldviews of the philosophy of 'reality'. The idea of 'God' may seem outdated, but it is an extremely complex area of philosophy, and may not be dismissed easily in human understanding."

I think by using the term "worldview," you might be working with a Western worldview, which does not include the Mayan, Hindu, or Chinese understanding of reality. Interestingly, the Chinese I Ching matrix fits perfectly in the center of the Mayan matrix. The Chinese matrix is equal to the 64 DNA, and the Mayan Matrix includes the universe. The acupuncture points are found in both. I think there is a lot we have to learn before our understanding of "worldview" includes other points of view, that are not dominated by the God of Abraham religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Those religions will not bring us to an understanding of quantum physics.

What we want is the truth; seeing quantum physics as God's truth is something we need to consider.

I am glad your father survived the coal mine. That was not a healthy place to be, and one of the best Great Depression. Would like to know more about their experience?



My favorite mine worker's story is Mother Jones.

Mary G. Harris Jones (1837 (baptized) – November 30, 1930), known as Mother Jones from 1897 onward, was an Irish-born American labor organizer, former schoolteacher, and dressmaker who became a prominent union organizer, community organizer, and activist. She helped coordinate major strikes, secure bans on child labor, and co-founded the trade union, the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW).

Notice she was a school teacher. At the 1917 National Education Association Conference, one of the teachers spoke of how proud she was of teachers who, in teaching about democracy, were also encouraging the development of granges and unions. Democracy is people uniting to help each other. I hate reading explanations of education being about pleasing Industries that treated humans poorly. That is not a correct understanding of what teachers were doing and why they were so strongly committed to teaching. The democracy we had, came through education, and it included spreading awareness of unions. Unfortunately, the coal miners and the Industry got into a life-or-death battle.

I use AI as a source of information. That means I am constantly learning. All this learning is more fun when I share it with others, and from my point of view, it doesn't matter where I get the information, from a book on my shelf, an encyclopedia, or an online source. What matters is how much work I put into it, and I hate quoting from a book because that is a lot of work for me, and I don't think people read the quotes.

My next consideration is quality and AI is a better writer than I am. Finding an exciting explanation is like bird watching with others, when the intent is to identify and count the number of birds, only I am only looking for information, not birds. I think discriminating against AI is like discriminating against people who look different. The rationale is a rationale, but it is not good reasoning.

So no one here cares about my thread about the great depression, and that is easy to accept. However, it came up in a Google search, so someone or something thought that information was worth spreading. That could be good for this forum, as it could attract a new person or many new people. That would make me feel good, but how much work do I want to put into it? If I could use AI as a second person in the thread, it might be fun to see what I could do. But I am not going to write the whole thread by myself, replying to my own post on the chance that something good could come from that. There has to be at least one other voice other than mine.

I don't think you need to worry about what AI could do to my enjoyment of learning.

Oh my goodness, he has a few books that appear to be complementary to Spinoza's ideas of nature and mind. These thinkers appear to me more appealing than quantum physics. However, quantum physics opens the possibility of all things being connected, and what we think is reality is an illusion and only one of infinite possibilities.

I want to go back in time to when people in South America had huge gatherings where it is likely psychodilics were used, so I can experience what they were experiencing. Along with going to India and learning the truths of Hinduism. Those truths are not so different from the Mayan beliefs. Philosophy has different sources of the notion that life as we know it is an illusion and the true reality looks like quantum physics.

Oh my, that is different from believing there is one god and our material reality and our lives are in his hands.

That was a lot about smell. When it comes to sex, our noses play an important role in our feelings of attraction.

Psychology Today
https://www.psychologytoday.com › attraction-evolved
Oct 16, 2018 — Bendas' findings show that odor is central to our sexual experiences. In fact, a satisfying sex life may simply be a case of following your nose.

Well, that is exactly what I have believed for a few years. It works perfectly with Buddhist concepts, but I have not come across the concepts with a more scientific explanation until yesterday. Several years ago, I began reading Frithjof Capra's book "The Tao of Physics," which explains Eastern mysticism and modern physics. I became convinced that we must learn to think in quantum physics terms, but I was alone with this book and struggled to understand it so I moved on to easier things.

However, then comes Jose Arguelles' book "The Mayan Factor" and Michael S Schneider's book "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe", and all altogether there is a lot I want to learn. Especially Arguelles's book is hard to understand and seems to say totally ridiculous things, but I think I should go back to reading it in light of what the videos I posted say.

What if God is quantum consciousness, and you are part of it? What if you never died?

This video really excites me. I don't believe it is 100% correct. In the ancient past, there was sacred math, and that means Turing may not have originated his understanding of math. Whatever, near the beginning of the video, there is an explanation of what I understand to be the spark of life. Math and form/space are everything. Towards the end of the video is an explanation of God's thumbprint, or if you like, the golden ratio.

That is very interesting and hits upon something I have been struggling with for years. I have never been correctly indoctrinated into a religion or science. :lol: My thinking is liberal, and what is called pseudoscience gets my attention. I think authorized science is way too materialistic. I had not thought of vision as you explain it, but when we smell something, that thing does not go up our nose. What goes up our nose is coded information, and that must be so for what we see.

I am going to jump to another post and share a video about math and manifestation. I want to hold what I said in reply to you separate, in case I need correcting. I am not sure of my understanding of what you said, and I plan to contemplate it when I go to bed. I am trying to visualize what goes into our eyes that becomes our vision. I have so much to learn. I am sure in my college days we studied how the eye works, but thanks to what you said, I am not sure of how the eye works.

Obviously, I am sure that many people in philosophy circles would scorn the process superstition. For those who pray, it is to whichever God one believes in but prayer is central to the Judaeo-Christian tradition. — Jack Cummins

AI says this.

Research shows prayer and meditation can increase certain brainwave patterns, such as alpha and theta waves, which are associated with relaxation and emotional experience.

I think this information needs to go with the information about electromagic energy. What are these brain waves? What creates them? Music can effect our brain waves, but exactly why?

Alpha waves (8-14 Hz) are brainwaves associated with states of deep relaxation, calm, and focused attention, like meditation or daydreaming. Theta waves (4-8 Hz) are slower brainwaves linked to light sleep, deep relaxation, heightened creativity, and memory processes, often occurring at the threshold of sleep. Both types of waves are neural patterns of electrical activity in the brain that change with different mental states and activities.

THANKS, JACK, FOR THIS THREAD. I AM ENJOYING IT SOOOO MUCH. :hearts:

If telepathy is real, why wouldn't it be physical, given that both sender and receiver are physical? To assume there's something nonphysical means the brain can have a causal relation to the nonphysical. More assumptions = weaker justification. — Relativist

Yes you are right, but that is not the whole story.:starstruck: You got my youthful thoughts all excited and I feel young and alive in the moment. In the past, I got all the information I could about what some call consider non-scientific thinking.

Do you know people's hearts can synchronize? Why and how does that happen? For sure, there is an emotional cause.

Reach for the hand of a loved one in pain and not only will your breathing and heart rate synchronize with theirs, your brainwave patterns will couple up too, according to a new study.
https://www.aau.edu/research-scholarship/featured-research-topics/holding-hands-can-ease-pain-sync-brainwaves#:~:text=Reach%20for%20the%20hand%20of,according%20to%20a%20new%20study.

I have to use AI here because (bad word) it is necessary information.

Electromagnetism is the fundamental force describing the interaction between electrically charged particles, encompassing both electricity and magnetism. It explains how moving electric charges create magnetic fields, and how changing magnetic fields can, in turn, generate electric fields. This force is responsible for everyday phenomena like static cling and magnets sticking to refrigerators, as well as holding atoms and molecules together, forming the basis for chemical bonds. https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+electromagnetism&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS990US990&oq=what+is+electro&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqEAgAEAAYkQIYsQMYgAQYigUyEAgAEAAYkQIYsQMYgAQYigUyDQgBEAAYkQIYgAQYigUyDQgCEAAYkQIYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYkQIYgAQYigUyDAgEEAAYFBiHAhiABDIMCAUQABhDGIAEGIoFMgYIBhBFGDkyDAgHEAAYQxiABBiKBTIMCAgQABhDGIAEGIoFMgcICRAAGI8C0gEJODE2M2owajE1qAIMsAIB8QUnuNeVOJFJjvEFJ7jXlTiRSY4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I think this next explanation explains telepathy, my messages from the dead.

Electromagnetic waves have two physical components: a propagating electric field and a magnetic field. These fields are perpendicular to each other and also perpendicular to the direction of the wave's travel, forming a transverse wave. The fields oscillate in phase and are in a fixed ratio of strengths, creating a disturbance that carries energy through space. https://www.google.com/search?q=what+are+the+physical+components+of+electromagnetic+waves&sca_esv=f67f5be7214373bb&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS990US990&sxsrf=AE3TifMOu1HVsffl-x3KoT3wD51UccnPDg%3A1756751983807&ei=b-i1aN2HMYbw0PEPuZ-bkA4&oq=what+are+the+physical+components+of+electrom&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiLHdoYXQgYXJlIHRoZSBwaHlzaWNhbCBjb21wb25lbnRzIG9mIGVsZWN0cm9tKgIIBzIHECEYoAEYCjIHECEYoAEYCjIHECEYoAEYCjIHECEYoAEYCjIHECEYoAEYCjIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FSPOIAVCAEVidUnABeAGQAQCYAV-gAbUHqgECMTG4AQHIAQD4AQGYAgygAucHwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgUQABiABMICBhAAGBYYHsICCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGKIEGIkFmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcEMTEuMaAHiWGyBwQxMC4xuAfiB8IHBjAuMS4xMcgHKw&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

According to quantum field theory, the "non-physical" or abstract causes of electromagnetic energy arise from the fundamental properties of the vacuum itself. These are phenomena that are not the result of moving or accelerating physical, charged particles but are intrinsic to the quantum nature of space. The main non-physical causes include: https://www.google.com/search?q=none+physical+causes+of+electromagnetic+energy&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS990US990&oq=none+physical+causes+of+el&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgDECEYChigATIGCAAQRRg5MgkIARAhGAoYoAEyCQgCECEYChigATIJCAMQIRgKGKABMgkIBBAhGAoYoAEyBwgFECEYqwIyBwgGECEYqwIyBwgHECEYqwIyBwgIECEYjwIyBwgJECEYjwLSAQoxOTIwOWowajE1qAIMsAIB8QVCzvEybOpHy_EFQs7xMmzqR8s&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Have you heard of people using shrooms having the same hallucinations? I have been watching history videos, and it appears some people had sacred cities and, evidently, huge gatherings where psychedelics were used. For some, using shrooms is a spiritual experience that is life-changing. I think Western prejudices have kept us ignorant. It was the prejudice that killed my interest, but here we are, and that interest is rekindled.

↪Athena Perhaps there was a telepathic event as the man was dying, that planted the words in your mind. Or perhaps you received it telepathically from his wife's subsconscious, stimulate by her mental state. These seems more plausible to me than your receiving this cryptic message from him, after his brain ceased functioning. — Relativist

I have been watching an explanation of Spinoza and I like all is God. For me, telepathy means there is an energy that is different from our other forms of communication, which are all physical. If there is another energy other than physical energy, that makes life after death possible, doesn't it?

I appreciate your interest in this, for it weighs on my mind as well. But thoughts here get so bound up in extraneous and historical content that has no business in this matter of God. Before moving forward, onw has to ask what God IS first, and then a great deal of what troubles this issue simply vanishes. So what do you think God IS? — Constance

According to Spinoza God is the universe. God is nature. God is all that is and ever will be. We are made of by nature, and nature is God. We are not separate from nature/God.

The medical evidence demonstrates that memories are "stored" (in some sense) in the brain. Disease and physical trauma can result in memory loss. So even if a "soul" lives on, if the individual's memories are absent, it seems irrelevant to me. I regard myself as the person who was shaped by my experiences, including the memories that were formed along the way. — Relativist

I agree with that logic, but I am not sure that we know all there is to know.

Years ago, someone I PM lost her husband, and I had a strong urge to ask her if the words "red" and 'bucket', meant anything to her. She wrote back "no". Then, a few days later, she said her husband used a red bucket in his room as a trash can. I have no reasonable explanation for that.

When a neighbor died, after her funeral, I got on the elevator and it would not go up, but the lights began flashing. I almost ran off the elevator, but everything returned to normal, and I went up to my apartment.
Obviously, that was an elevator malfunction, and it is just a coincidence that it happened on the day of her funeral. So what if in over 15 years, nothing like that happened before or after. Now I could buy that, but having to ask my PM buddy if the words "red" and "bucket" meant anything to her is harder to explain away.

The thought of an afterlife is certainly appealing, but wishful thinking seems to me a poor guide to truth. And AFAIK, there's no evidence of it (unless you buy into claims about houses being haunted). Still, believing in an afterlife is not usually harmful (unless it leads one to risk or forgeit his life, or that of others), and it could be emotionally beneficial. — Relativist

I am quite sure the deceased have communicated to others through me. I am not positive of that, but there is no other way to explain some experiences. So I am sort of on the fence. Maybe there is life after death, and maybe not. Maybe reincarnation is possible, and maybe not. Becoming senile could be the perfect way to prepare for a new life. Like it wouldn't be a new life if we continued to be the person in the old life. :lol:

I am concerned about our souls needing this planet, and what happens if we destroy it? Will we become like refugees looking for a new home?

"Personal pain and suffering" define you? — 180 Proof

Sure. Quite a while ago, I read that we know who we are by checking our feelings. Recently, I came across the notion that our default mood defines who we are. Others know us as basically light-hearted, frivolous, crumpy. Whatever our default mood might be. Explaining this to you makes me think those thoughts are a little crazy, but it works for me right now. Daily, I check in with myself, and think, yeap, I am in the right body. It feels like me. :lol: From there, I work on improving myself as much as I can. My life is driven by eating the right food, getting the right amount of rest, and exercise. And mental exercises that all the vogue right now.

You must understand, I am not the old lady in the mirror. Most of us are not that old person. Our bodies are old, but our personalities solidify around age 30, and we tend to think of ourselves as that person. We know a lot more than we did, but I think our egos tend to solidify in our 30s. Then our egos take charge.

I returned to the forum this afternoon to watch the Spinoza video again. I have played with being egoless with Buddhist thoughts but I think Spinoza's thoughts might be more useful. I can't believe everything my head tells me about me, and I would like to silence some thoughts that have quite a negative effect.

How would I know who I am without my personal pain and suffering? What would give my life purpose and meaning? What would hold me separate from God?

Thanks for the explanation of being free. I think I will pursue knowledge.

This is interesting and essential if one is interested in the history of thoughts about existence and a god.

Getting back to you about the books you listed. I was able to read some of "Information and the Nature of Reality" this morning. I think I have a book about quantum physics that might help me understand the concepts. My mind is kind of stuck back in the day of Newton. When trying to understand quantum physics, it is quickly overwhelmed, but it is clear to me that we must upgrade our thinking. :lol: I have to laugh at myself. My brain doesn't work as well as I would like. My old legs sure are not putting in me in a marathon.

But I will keep working on improvement, just in case the Egyptians were right about the trinity of our being.

Whether one's ideas about reality are 'delusions' or not is culture dependent. The standard idea of delusion is if one's ideas are not shared by others. For example, if someone believes oneself to be a Messiah it is usually thought to be delusional. Generally, those with unusual beliefs are regarded as eccentric, or referred to a psychiatrist.

Even within psychiatry, mental health professionals ideas vary, ranging from fundamentalists to hardcore atheists. This affects the way the professionals interpret the ideas of psychosis and delusions. Nevertheless, one common ground is thinkers about the impact of the ideas. If a person is seen as a risk to oneself or others there is more concern about delusional beliefs.

Of course, it is possible for people in power or an entire nation to be delusional, in a 'harmful' way. Politics involves ideas about reality, ranging from leaders fighting for religious beliefs to Marxism based on dialectical materialism. — Jack Cummins

That could lead to an unpleasant discussion.:lol: I have a few words to say about delusion and political problems, but that would not be philosophical. However, AI's explanation of "Plato's Allegory of the Cave and Political Delusion" is perfect. We should not base our decisions on popular opinions but on truth. That is where freedom of the press and the media comes in. Our journalists were supposed to keep us well informed, and many took this very seriously. But lately, the media has catered to popular interest. Resulting mass delusion.

In the 1930s and 1940s, Nearing and Helen Knothe, a lifelong vegetarian, lived together in Winhall in rural Vermont, where they had purchased a large forest tract for $2200 and a moderate-sized farm for $2500.

Scott Nearing, an economics professor who at 45 had made himself unemployable because of his socialist-pacifist views. https://www.google.com/search?q=scott+nearing+vermont+house&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS990US990&oq=Scott+Nearing+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgHEAAYFhgeMgoIABBFGBYYHhg5MgcIARAuGIAEMgcIAhAAGIAEMgcIAxAAGIAEMgcIBBAAGIAEMgcIBRAAGIAEMgcIBhAAGIAEMggIBxAAGBYYHjIICAgQABgWGB7SAQs4NTg1NzBqMGoxNagCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I think many who could afford a farm turned to farming during the Great Depression. My grandparents owned a chicken farm, so they ate well but.... The story goes that they could not sell the chickens, so my grandfather gave them away. That made my grandmother furious, and they divorced. I thought the divorce rate increased because of the Great Depression, but AI said the divorce rate decreased until the economy started to improve. Then the divorce rate increased.

My grandmother was a teacher, and divorced women could not get teaching jobs in the city so she and her two children had to stay in a rural area until the rules for teachers changed.

Followup question: are we still a nation anymore? We all know the state is alive and kicking, but when's the last time somebody bothered to check on her brother? Civic nationalism (the US' chosen type of unifying ideology) is much more intellectually demanding than ethnic nationalism, which threatens to divide pluralist nations into factions. Enlightenment ideals like you mentioned, an emphasis on individual liberty, personal responsibility, active citizenship and pride in duty, rule of law, diversity of opinions, backgrounds, and cultures, and reverence of constitutional foundations all seem to be core tenets of our national identity. It's fundamental for liberal democracies to remain united behind these or adjacent ideals so that solidarity can prevail even in times of crisis or division. Without them, the only common denominators would geography and a prevailing political authority, while sub-national factions jockey for political dominance without much restraint — finarfin

Wow! I love :heart: what you said! I don't know which nation you are talking about, but the US is in big trouble! The Roosevelts had a different set of values than some presidents. And we may want to pay attention to this difference.

I hold my hands at this moment, a book titled "Poverty and Riches" by Scott Nearing, Ph.D. published in 1916. It is a horror story about the exploitation of the poor, including children. This book seems to say we should take Germany's side in the First World War because it did far more for its citizens than England did for its poor and powerless class.

Here is the reasoning for that.. under the Act of 1831...

children of nine could be called upon to work sixty-nine hours a week. "The hours of black slaves' labor in our colonies were at that very time carefully limited by law (Orders in Council, November 2, 1831) to nine per day for adults, and six for young persons and children, while night work was simply prohibited". Not until 1847 was a ten-hour day for women and children secured.

6. Laisez-Faire Justified
The debate in Parliament over the early factory acts sounds weird and uncanny in twentieth-century ears. The Unspeakable working and living conditions of the industrial population were explained and justified in the name of liberty and individual freedom.

The revolting conditions surrounding the lives of the working population were more than offest, in the eyes of English statemen, by the cheapness of the product, the profits of the industries to the manufacturers, and the splendid trade balances that were growing in favor of England.

This is what the Roosevelts were looking at when they determined to use the federal government to take better care of the working class. Heaven only knows how many people would have starved to death if Franklin Roosevelt had not used the power of government to create jobs that were desperately needed.

I am trying to hold this examination of economic crashes and capitalism to a question of morality. Socrates said, when people are exploited, sooner or later, they become a problem to those who exploit them. The Enlightenment was a belief that humanity can do better.

Plagiarizing someone else's writing is wrong. I grew up with that rule and have strong feelings about the wrong. However, as I sit out here all alone with my thoughts, it is wonderful to find I am not totally alone, but AI knows what I am talking about and more! Unlike some replies, AI leads me to learning more about the subject I am writing about. It's a wonderful experience for me.

I don't always agree with Google AI, and that is annoying. How dare they say something that is wrong. I don't want people believing something that is wrong. I don't think AI has emotional intelligence and that can be a threat. Some of us do not want to be ruled by a king, nor AI.

I would really appreciate any corrections to what I am saying about GD, because I was not there. I think for some of us where I live, the recession was like the GD. I risked my life hitchhiking and selling plasma to get through my generation's hard times. I experienced black humor, where the possibility of dying was funny. But I did not live through the GD so I may hold wrong notions about it.

That would not be very useful.

Thanks, I looked for the lounge but couldn't find it. Too much on my mind all at once, shuts my brain down.

I am most concerned about what the people in charge of the forum want. Using AI would make developing a thread by myself much easier. But my next move might be quoting from a book titled "Poverty and Riches" and published around the First World War about why Germany had healthier citizens than Britain, and questioning if taking the British side was the right thing. Capitalism that exploits people, may not be moral, and Socrates said sooner or later those people who are exploited will become a problem to those who exploit them.

Thank you. I will follow the Hippie path. The more scientific one causes my brain to shut down.

One of my favorite philosophers is James Williams, and he was good with Holisticism. He is also a hard read for me, but says things my brain really likes. He was an education authority, and education is a subject I am passionate about.

I checked my favorite second-hand book dealer, and the book The Sapient Cosmos by James B. Glattfelder is more than I usually pay. I will have to think about it. I already am behind in my reading.

Back to the Great Depression. Herbert Hoover's "rugged individualism" lost him the election and put Franklin Roosevelt in the presidency. The Roosevelts have a history of progressive political action. Before Franklin was Theodore Roosevelt, who increased government power to regulate Industry when the gap between the rich and poor was huge. Theodore was anti-monopoly and he regulated the railroad. Franklin built on this government control of Industry. However, Hoover, was responsible for reorganizing the federal bureaucracy that made the New Deal possible when Franklin Roosevelt was the president. That is, these men worked together for a more moral and efficient government.

I say a more moral government because not only do I see the moral decisions, but James Williams an American philosopher was concerned about the moral decisions, and he favored the liberal point of view.

"Certainly Dewey does not offer us final or settled solutions but this is not the issue; at various times in his long career, he thought seriously and deeply about many social and moral problems, and it is our contention that he provided his liberal followers with some answers to some of these problems. His social and political activities were a lived extension of his political theorizing. From the First World War to the end of the Depression and after-as long as he was actively involved in social and political movements-he applied his theory to practice in concrete engagements. Dewey's appeal for the use of intelligence in social change can easily lend itself to caricature as long as intelligence retains its scholastic connotation." BY EDWARD J. BORDEAU
https://digitalcommons.sacredheart.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=rel_fac

That is very exciting to me because it is Enlightenment thinking, and I fully believe it was Enlightenment thinking that made the US great. The most noble purpose of education is to prepare the young to be responsible citizens. This is a far cry from the present mood of the US to oppose intellectualism. And curiously, Christians hated William James.

And in Texas, the grade school textbooks do not mention the problem, and because they buy so many textbooks, they are written to please the people in power. Other states buy books made for Texas, but they may be modified to fit the different state standards. That is unethical.

In 1920 a newspaper warned "Given our known oil supply and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic disaster and possibly war." There is no excuse for our ignorance. Carter was right about avoiding war by reducing our consumption of oil, and Reagan was a liar when he said we have all the oil we need, because that depended on a military a presence in the Middle East. Technology extended our time to use oil. A technology that depends on a lie and ignorance is unforgivable, and it was the media's duty to keep us informed. We might delay the collapse of our economy but we can not prevent it, while at the same time we are destroying our planet.

We need honesty and we need to act on what we know. We must not let the discussion stop at ignoring the problem because change would hurt.

That double negative indicates non-dogmatic uncertainty and moderate skepticism. I too, am uncertain about The Hard Problem of Consciousness, because the (yes/no) empirical & reductionist scientific method is inadequate to the task of objectively observing the subjective (self-conscious) observer. Yet some scientists & philosophers are using holistic (both/and) methods to make sense of the simplicity in complexity, and the order in chaos*1*2. They hope to shed light on the mystery of how Life & Mind emerged from the random roilings of matter. — Gnomon

Wow, that is delicious. I have a big problem with binary thinking. I did not know that holistic thinking is being practiced by some scientists. That makes me hopeful.

I too have developed a philosophical theory, based primarily on Information Science (Complexity, Systems, Holism, etc). It postulates that the "unifying energy" of evolution is a combination of Information (direction) and Causation (Energy) : like a guided missile instead of an aimless bomb. It's not Deterministic (absolute certainty), but Probabilistic (optional). The theory has little to do with proving the existence of God. But it does point toward the necessity of a First Cause/Prime Mover/Programmer of some kind to light the fuse of the Big Bang bomb. :smile: — Gnomon

I need more information about this. I am limited to ancient Greek thinking of cause and effect, and I am quite sure a better understanding of math would improve my ability to think, but my brain just won't cooperate. The story of evolution seems tied to probabilistic thinking. For sure, plants and animals are not created by a god's whim of what they should look like and how they behave, but they follow the rules of what is possible.

I love the idea of understanding creation as patterns of information that may or may not manifest as matter and life forms. I bookmarked a page for future reference. My brain shuts down when I try to understand too much. I have a book on a shelf that I need to check to see if its information will work with this new information from you.

Are you familiar with "A Beginner's Guide to the Construction of the Universe" By Michael S. Schneider? If you are, what do you think of it?

Indeed it did. My wife fell under its spell and I supported her by attending meetings with her. As frequently happened during that time we ended up divorcing. We drew up the papers ourselves. It was painful at the time, but good for both in the long run. — jgill

How was a divorce good for both of you? Did she have that great career that liberation seemed to promise us, and does she live in economic comfort as we believe we should have? You have added a new dimension to my questions about our sanity.

:lol: I just had a vision of myself as a child sitting on the sidelines watching everyone else play. I am still that child sitting on the sidelines watching everyone else play and wondering what are they thinking?

I was glad when my X left and filed for divorce, but I don't see that as the best possible outcome for the family. From my point of view, men thought women's liberation meant they no longer had family responsibility. They walked away, leaving the women with hurt and angry teenagers. I don't think that was a good thing. Today, it makes my heart happy to see a man in the park with his children. I am hoping the younger men are better husbands and fathers than when there was too much division between what men and women did.

I think if we replace the autocratic model of industry with the democratic model, things would be much better for families. But if women suddenly pulled out of their jobs, it would be as bad for the economy as restricting our use of oil. Two paychecks, two tax payers, meant more money for banks and the government gets more to spend on military might. I am not sure this is best for humanity.

We've led different lives. Mine was more traditional middle class. The usual trek through the education system; working factory jobs to help pay the way. I'm a younger Boomer, and they stopped using the draft lottery with those born the year before I was, so even Vietnam didn't sufficiently radicalize me (or frighten me). I see how the recession impacted you more than it did me.

And I've always been cynical, alas. So, it didn't surprise me that much when Boomers fell under the spell of filthy lucre. But the extent to which the elites want to control our choices and lives as well as profit from them does surprise me. — Ciceronianus

Oh my God! What you said needs to go into the discussion I have been having with BC is the thread about how children should be raised. It is possible we will have exhausted our supply of oil in another 100 years. Let's put that in perspective. A child born today could still be alive when we can no longer maintain our economy, and all industrial economies collapse. We remain on this course because terrible things would happen if we stopped doing what we are doing. This is insane because we live on a finite planet, and there is no way to avoid the disaster.

Constantine moved the Roman capital to the other side of the mountains that were abundant in gold, and this wealth was not shared with the whole of Rome. Those who are getting rich off oil will not share that wealth with us when there is no more oil. Our children born today may see the end of life as we know it, and we are in denial of this reality.

Philosophy does deal with this. Plato's cave deals with this, along with existentialism and nihilism. I don't know enough about those branches of philosophy. I just know Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq wars were about oil, and we are all paying for those wars when we pay taxes and that bill has to get pain before we have universal health care and well-funded schools. The oil industry is getting rich at our expense, and when the oil is gone, yes, our economy collapses. Shouldn't we be able to do better than this?

I focus on democracy because if our economy collapses, so will our governments, and our only hope will be understanding democracy enough to make it work, as humanity struggles to survive in a very hostile climate.

Children can grow up to be open to the always-changing world, to new music ("All music was once new"), new art, new science, new technology, and so on, while also being open to the past. I have no idea of how, exactly, parents should go about that other than to be open themselves both to the ever changing present and the past. And they should do that with as much taste and selectivity as they can manage. New fashion might be hideous, and some new technology might be insidious. We don't have to rush out and buy it. — BC

What if all this crashes in only 100 years? Will our young be prepared to figure out how to survive? We would be far past peak oil if it were not for fracking. If we can't stop using oil, how will people stop using oil one hundred years from now?

According to Youngquist, Rome fell because it exhausted its source of gold. Constantine moved the capital to Rome because that was where the best supply of gold was, and that gold was not shared with the whole of Rome. I am trying to figure out how to discuss things philosophically. Are we as intelligent as we think we are? Or are we all stooges living in denial and about to lose it all?

Once again, I am desperate for more information, and in desperation, I turn to Al because at the moment I can do no right. Maintaining this discussion outside the bounds of philosophy is also wrong. AI puts this back into the philosophy bag.

To ask what happens philosophically if people cannot handle reality is to explore some of the most fundamental questions in human thought. Philosophers have addressed this topic for millennia, from Plato’s metaphor of the cave to modern existentialism and nihilism. The different responses offered reveal a core tension between humanity's desire for meaning and the universe's apparent indifference.

This is a comment about the book made by the online used book store ThriftBooks.

Book Overview
There can be no doubt that as a matter of fact a religious life, exclusively pursued, does tend to make the person exceptional and eccentric. I speak not now of your ordinary religious believer, who follows the conventional observances of his country, whether it be Buddhist, Christian, or Mohammedan. His religion has been made for him by others, communicated to him by tradition, determined to fixed forms by imitation, and retained by habit. It would profit us little to study this second-hand religious life. We must make search rather for the original experiences which were the pattern-setters to all this mass of suggested feeling and imitated conduct. These experiences we can only find in individuals for whom religion exists not as a dull habit, but as an acute fever rather. But such individuals are "geniuses" in the religious line; and like many other geniuses who have brought forth fruits effective enough for commemoration in the pages of biography, such religious geniuses have often shown symptoms of nervous instability. Even more perhaps than other kinds of genius, religious leaders have been subject to abnormal psychical visitations. Invariably they have been creatures of exalted emotional sensibility. Often they have led a discordant inner life, and had melancholy during a part of their career. They have known no measure, been liable to obsessions and fixed ideas; and frequently they have fallen into trances, heard voices, seen visions, and presented all sorts of peculiarities which are ordinarily classed as pathological. Often, moreover, these pathological features in their career have helped to give them their religious authority and influence.

That seems to explain what I experienced this morning. For sure, I was emotionally unstable and I thought of using shrooms to enhance this trip, but it is not easily available to me. However, for a lot of money I can, and if I have another experience like I did this morning, I am going to lay out the money. Now we are getting into a question of consciousness. Of what can we be conscious, and how do we know it is real if it is beyond our everyday experience? What if what we think is real, is more of a delusion than we believe? Does any of this matter?

That was beautiful, and I will make this reply simple.

A child born today could be alive 100 years from now.

And making radical changes would likley result in millions dying but that is okay because it will benefit future generations. You know what I mean when I say we need to be cautious.

Imagine the hardship and suffering it would cause to ban people from using fuel, or switching to vegan diets. The best we can do is attack the problems we foresee from multiple angles. We are already doing so in many sectors and huge strides have been made already in terms of how we manage farming. In the near future we probably won't need farmland as hydroponic will have moved on a lot.

The only real threat I am concerned about is AGI, but I am not entirely sure that can/will happen anytime soon. Hard to say. If it does that has far more potential to ruin our lives as well as improve it dramatically.

I am not overly concerned about the future of humanity tbh. Someone needs to be and it looks like you are so that is enough for me. — I like sushi

I wish everyone knew much more about geology than they do. AL fails to give an adequate explanation of what oil has to do with banking, but at least knowing what it has to say would be helpful. You might Google 'what oil has to do with banking' then get back to me. We need to figure the cost of war into the cost of oil. Taxpayers are paying the real cost of oil even if they don't drive. The division of the rich and the poor is unjust, considering what our tax dollars are paying for and what we get in return.

I think high schools should make Youngquist's books about geology mandatory reading. We can not stop the suffering by ignoring our reality and shifting your responsibility to make sane decisions to others, is not being responsible.

Where are we going to get the water for hydroponic farming? What do you know of our supply of water? Google, areas in the US that have water shortages. If you want nightmares, check the NASA map of groundwater in the US. We get food from Mexico. Check out its underground water supply. We are living on borrowed time, and our populations are increasing while our supply of water is decreasing.

Now check out what oil has to do with farming. You can stick your head in the sand, but that will not come out well. I don't think anything is more important to our decision-making than geology. All I can do is make people aware of what they need to know.

AI agrees Louis Moreau Gottschalk blended culturally different music. A look at all the different sources of music makes the social scene look like a very active beehive. Not the slow and isolated progress that has been my opinion of reality. Like if I were smarter, I would create an interactive map of time and earth space. Where is it happening and why?

This is a little far from raising children, but if we did so with a bigger picture of reality, would that change how we raise them? For example, if we are moving into a period of extreme weather, might we want to prepare our young for this? A man is presenting awesome historical explanations on the internet. He said we have had very long periods of extreme climate change that almost led to our extinction. What if we should prepare our young for that? Ignoring what is happening does not seem intelligent to me. We send our children to church to save their souls, but how about preparing them to deal with a water shortage using science instead of mythology, and thinking the earth has always been as God created it, and nothing of importance changes.

Ragtime was very popular in the Black community where it originated, but it also became popular among middle-class whites. Why? How? — BC

How could it not become popular?! It is energetic and lifts a person's spirits. The total opposite of Jim Crow.

Thank you for mentioning things like the availability of sheet music and pianos. Immediately, I thought of my grandmother. It was obvious in her day that a respectable young lady knew how to play the piano. She gave my sister and me piano lessons. I had no idea how important that was to her but I can see that today.

I googled for more information about the availability of pianos, and the explanation came with mention of the social status in a growing middle class and what the piano had to do with that. The growing middle class and increased availability of sheet music and pianos were the result of developing technology. Which pushes me to ask, when did typewriters become essential, and demand for typewriters and people trained to use them skyrocketed with the First World War.

I am moved to tears, and I am not sure why. Perhaps because I am experiencing a strong connection with my grandmother and her generation. And my head is screaming for a philosophical thought that can bring my experience back in line with a philosophical forum. Can you help me? What am I experiencing? It goes with notions of god and man. That is a reality bigger than myself, and being a part of that bigger reality. We are all in the river of time.

That river can be represented with both music and art. Sorry, folks, you can take me out and shoot me, but I have to use AI to make this post much richer than what I can do without it, and my emotional experience at the moment demands I ride this wave. Question, forces behind ragtime music. AI says.

The creation and popularity of ragtime music resulted from the fusion of African American folk rhythms with European classical traditions, amplified by the social and economic conditions of post-Civil War America. Key drivers included the rise of a Black middle class, technological advancements in music distribution, and the vibrant culture of saloons, theaters, and dance halls.

Louis Moreau Gottschalk would begin this transfusion, right?

I am reading my post, and I am thinking, women's liberation happened!

I think we agree that the mood of our nation has changed. I think we agree that the difficult times our parents faced shaped them.

But what generation since theirs has (as a generation) experienced similar times? Most Boomers, I think, abandoned any desire they may have had to serve others and elected to serve themselves. They were used to being served, and accepted it as their due. They became the self-indulgent elites that, together with their progeny, rule us now. They feel entitled to rule and tell others what to do, and more than ever have the means to convince us that this is the way it should be.

This is the example they set. — Ciceronianus

Wow, I am so glad you replied! Your observation seems right, but I am not part of that, and the 1970s recession was like the Great Depression where I live. The college and city were fighting for college renters. We had a joke, "It is easy to have a small business in Eugene. Just start with a big one." and in the hills, there was a large colony of homeless men. At the same time, the downtown looked like a ghost town. That area still has not recovered. The recession was severe and lasted a long time. We were a farming and timber town. I had come up from LA, California, and lived in culture shock, but I am so glad I stayed. For a while, hippies ran this place, and I liked that period best. But the economic crash, led to a flood of Californians pouring in, and now property values are too high, housing is scarce, and the traffic is horrible.

All that said, I have been wondering what happened to those of us who believed we would make the world a better place. I know very well that was my mother's generation's belief. They gave a lot to make life better and we claimed their hopes and aspirations with the belief we would do better than they did, but :scream: I am screaming :scream: what happened to the rest of my generation? Why did they become so materialistic? Why are they all about themselves? How could they betray us? I remember being told when we grew up we get back on track with the materialistic and less ideal capitalist way.

Can I slip in a dramatic fact of that time period? Many women of my cohort postponed careers to care for the family, and during the recession, our husbands were experiencing midlife crises and they walked out, leaving us alone to support the children. We had to hide our education to get jobs, and thank heavens the children were teenagers, so we didn't have child care costs, but meth hit the streets, and our teenagers were hurt and angry, and the lack of jobs meant they were not absorbed into mainstream society. They came of age at a very bad time. And as grandparents, we had to fight the state for custody of our grandchildren. And we won. Policy and law radically changed in favor of the family.

Somehow, in all this mess, your words ring true. The reasoning for communal living was sound, but psychologically, we were not prepared for that, and most communes failed. I remember a social war on communal living. Like it just wasn't American!