My insurmountable hurdle was this one:
The closer a system gets to the 4 omnis, the more moral it would become.
— universeness
What does 'moral' mean in this context? By what standards? For what reason? What would impel it?
Especially when bolstered by this:
Does 'with great power comes great responsibility,' not ring true for you?
— universeness
Not as it has applied to human agents through history. Certainly not to human sentiments regarding insects. Why would it apply to a non-human? — Vera Mont

↪Vera Mont
Humiliation does not cure hatred.
— Vera Mont

I think that Mahatma Gandhi's primary aim was to generate understanding. Both communities then, and even now, often misunderstood the other and believed as if the other side was filled with evil people who were hell-bent on destroying them. Breaking this perspectis a major step towards national unity. To a great extent, he managed to succeed in his aim. Even during the height of the Pakistan movement (and the communalism of the Hindu Mahasabha), leaders such as Maulana Azad and Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan stood by Mahatma Gandhi and the idea of a united India. — Existential Hope

My head is like a tornado and I am trying to find the order in all those thoughts while it is still stuck on the concept of our stories verses facts and universeness's AI.

I can see in universesness's mention of insects a disregard for life and it comes with a story of one man killing another because these men have stories that make them enemies. The concept of democracy is directly tied to reasoning, liberty and justice. At this moment, I can see a reverence for life missing when we believe we are enemies and can kill another as we might crush a bug. How is that justified? What is the reasoning?

This can be done successfully, I believe, though any person is capable of making mistakes (and learning from them hopefully). — 0 thru 9

I want to jump all over your comment. I have done at least one terrible thing that I regret, and I know I had no reason for thinking what I did was wrong until I got new information years later. Makes me really hurt for the industries that are forced to pay millions of dollars for their mistakes made when no one was aware of the damage that was being done. My point is, we just are not born knowing it all and there is no reason to believe a person who does a wrong automatically is aware of doing anything wrong. We can not miraculously know our wrongs without the information for making that judgment. And even then knowing a wrong is not equal to how to do things better.

I beg everyone, let us be gentle with each other because it is hard to be human. We really need to understand that and to talk about our values and education. What does education have to do with a moral society?

Facts are facts, and facts should certainly be recognized for optimal existence. — 0 thru 9

I love this statement too! :heart: Have you spent time with a severely retarded person who is amazing at seeing life as it is and making good choices? You and I have heads full of stories and most of the time our heads automatically give us feedback based on our stories, not so much the facts at the moment. For example, I attempted to leave a gated nursing home with my friend and as soon as I saw the locking mechanism, I knew we had to go back inside to get the code (my technological story of how things work). My friend stuck his hand through the gate and opened it from the outside. He was a great help to me when my life was turned upside down and my middle-class mentality was not enough to keep
things going. He came with very different stories and better coping skills than I had at the time in my life.

I often do my best to empty my head and experience life as people did in northern Europe a few thousand years back. :cry: I can't do it. I can not, not know what I know, and sometimes, what I think I know is the worst barrier to learning and experiencing reality as it is, instead of what I think it is.

In the experience of being a human, with perceptions, sensations, ideas, and feelings swirling around our minds, and activity churning nonstop around us, using internal stories makes the world clearer to us. — 0 thru 9

:sad: I am afraid that is not so for the reason I explained. Using internal stories may seem to make the world clearer but OMG when the story is a lie it can make life very, very bad. Wars are fought over who has the right story. My Christian friends are so annoying and so completely unaware of the lies they live with. Many of them are around 90 years old and I am not telling them what I think of their lies because facing death without the comforting stories of a God and immortality can be unpleasant. Praying for God to resolve a problem instead of taking the necessary action, really annoys me!

As an example, if a person chooses to perhaps weave into their stories zombies, unicorns, Batman, gnomes, angels, demons, ET aliens, UFOs, multi-dimensions, talking animals or ancestor spirits… and can live a stable existence, who’s to say otherwise? — 0 thru 9

Now universness's argument for AI has a truth to support his argument. That is a lot of creative thinking you listed and not something I think we should accept as truth. By the time a student leaves high school, s/he should have a good understanding of what is fact and what is fiction and how we determine which is which. But now I have to argue what is wrong with AI running the show. I do not think we want a math machine to set human policy nor is it a good thing that our governing bureaucracy has unrestricted authority. HIPAA is a real nightmare that AI could not make any better or worse.

But is claiming to be completely 100% story-free itself a story we can tell ourselves?
Is it helpful or not? — 0 thru 9

It is not possible for us to be 100% story-free. Aristotle "An unexamined life is not worth living." Who are you and how do you know you are you? Does everyone see you the same as you see yourself? What made you as you are? Where do you belong in life? Who is to blame for what is happening in Israel? I assume everyone has a story for judging the warring that is occurring. Not that I want to get into the politics of that, but being aware of different stories is helpful, and knowing we are talking about stories and not just facts, is helpful.

Is this continuous story creation an advanced creative power we have? — 0 thru 9

Wow is that an exciting question when mixed with universeness's understanding of AI. AI can create music but can it stop a war? Or would AI even attempt to create music without a human programming it to do so? With AI I think we are going through a major consciousness change and it could be fun to come back in 200 years to see how humans doing things in the future. What stories will they tell that explain their nations? Our young today do not have a lot of interest in dead men and what used to be.:lol: They can't even think about what happened a few years ago has to do with what is happening today. They know themselves and their lives but not much more.

My grandmother was a reflection of the good values she learned. Today we are living in complete social chaos and absolutely no social agrrements. We have been going through social breakdown or what some may call creative destruction at least since 1958 when the National Defense Education Act radically changed the purpose of education. Thanks to forums with international participants I am aware of this change spreading around the world in the form of bureaucratic technology and economic shifts. I could get extremely political about this, but I want to highlight something you said about our nature.

The golden rule can also be a secular humanist rule, no need for theistic support, imo but I am glad that some religions do try to employ it. It's certainly true that many religious individuals, have made great sacrifices to help other people, but I personally think that such is demonstrated by non-religious folks as much as it is by religious folks. — universeness

For sure the fact that we have survived without claws and fangs proves that we evolved to help each other stay alive. We share much in common with other social animals. Genghis Khan had no problem with killing people until a Chinese man who came from an agricultural society taught Khan to harvest the towns and cities, instead of destroying them. Khan and the Mongols did not come from an agricultural society but a society dependent on hunt in an environment that led them to believe they lived despite the sky god who was far more likely to kill people than to help them survive. So by the Mongol story of life, it was people in the cities who were evil, as the cities led some having great wealth and left many extremely poor. Khan told his people to never settle and become like the city people. Lying and stealing were punishable by death because among the Mongols there was no need to lie and steal because everyone's needs were met. If a stranger knocked on your door without question he was given food and shelter because not doing so could lead to the person's death and someday you might be the one needing food and shelter.

There are so many delightful things to talk about. What is our nature and how does the environment affect our nature and the stories we tell and live by?

People's stories are very important to their notions of truth that give them shared values and learned ways of behavior. The Great Religions gave people stories that led to civilizations, and education for good moral judgment and citizenship is the secular way of making a civilization work.

This is a little off topic but are you aware of Allen Turing being the father of AI?

‘Pick a side, and fight like hell against the evil enemies’ seems to be the common ‘meme’.
Which leads to dehumanizing everyone and falling prey to propaganda, conformism, and mind control. — 0 thru 9

There are some wonderful things about polytheism. Your gods can argue with each other and their arguments expand our consciousness. This is not so with the all-powerful one and only god.

Athenians gave us humanized gods and each one is a concept. Together the gods led to increasingly complex concepts, and this can not be done with Christianity which has only good or evil. If the Renaissance had not occurred we would still be living in the dark ages. It seems a near miracle to me that some Christians and scientists have learned to live together. A book that starts out explaining we are cursed because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit of knowledge, is not compatible with democracy and universal education to empower the people. I don't think we can get past black or white, right or wrong, this or that thinking, as long as Christianity dominates our culture and the other half of our citizens are ignorant of the reasoning behind democracy. Democracy is an imitation of the gods who argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning. This does not come with the God of Abraham and social structure based on heritage, not the merit that organized Athens. Our freedom of social and economic movement comes from Athens, not the Bible.

Christianity plus education for technology is terrible for humanity! Our love of technology is pushing the this or that, right or wrong, mentality. And what you said is so true! :heart:

There is nothing but horror on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I know there are many contentions that feed the conflict, but the religious one is amongst the worse imo.
When I hear the individual stories of what savagery is meeted out, to individual victims, I again can only find a little solace in silent incredulity. I am a white man, living in a (by comparison with Gaza or Israel) safe Scotland, financially ok, and no major troubles in my life. I just have no experience of facing such levels of horror in my life. — universeness

I remember when the fighting in Ireland was in the news daily and there were other such conflicts based on prejudice against "them" and being totally confused. How do people know who is one of them and who is when everyone looks the same? It totally mystifies me how people can imagine "we" are not like "them"? Really? How are "we" different from "them"? I like the forum rule- Attack people's ideas not the people.

I like the golden rule that exist in all religions- "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" I try to live by my Grandmother's 3 rules.

We respect all people because we are respectful people. It doesn't matter who the other person is because this is about who we are.

We protect the dignity of others. (that is really hard when someone else appears to be deliberately offensive)

We do everything with integrity.

I have heard in days of old we we equated virtues with strength. I am afraid I can be quite obnoxious when I think I am being virtuous. This brings me to a Bahi'a person who created a system for teaching virtues. She introduces her program by explaining it is not enough to teach what a child is doing wrong. We must also teach how to do it right. This education is essential to our liberty and democracy and our future.

In some cases I would use 'to err is human,' in other cases my responses, actions, decisions have never become acceptable to me. I would respond differently if I had the chance again. 'We learn from our mistakes,' can be a very bitter pill, even though it's true. — universeness

I believe old age is purgatory. My worst mistakes came at a time of confusion. I expected a Dick and Jane reality and that is not what I got. When my marriage ended I was totally confused and unsure of myself. I had no basis for good judgment during this time because I lost the structure of my life. I read somewhere it is not uncommon for women in that situation to return to the mentality of puberty. When you have freedom but don't know how to use it.

I am very concerned about our justice system which is more a system of revenge. Only in a few places can convicts get an education even though we know the classics can turn people's lives around.
I don't think we are focusing enough on how important a good family and education are to the children. Being prepared for a technological society is not equal to being prepared for life and it is a terrible reality that we are failing our children and so they are failing. Some of us fail in more serious ways than others, and I hurt for some of the convicts who were pen pals long before the internet forums. One of them told me he knew his life was spinning out of control, and he was glad to be removed from the streets because he thought our "correction system" would prepare him for life. Instead, he was left uneducated and punished and not prepared to do any better. I really hurt for him, but also for myself, because I remember the confusion I went through.

I really like Cicero who believed we are programmed to do the right thing but we do not always know what is the right thing. He said when we know the right thing we are compelled to do it. Unfortunately, that is not always true. Fortunes have been built on doing the wrong thing and when science revealed the problem, they protected their fortunes by denying the science, and I don't think they feel bad about that. I think there are circumstances that lead us in the wrong direction, such as slavery, or selling tobacco or oil products. Ouch, what can be done to increase better decision-making?

I have always found you to be more open and not restricted to 'my own experience, observation and understanding of human behaviour.' I hope I am too. I don't like the term 'versions of truth'. I accept different observers can report different emphasis or aspects of truths, about what they observed from their reference frame, but those are part of the same truth imo, only the different frames of reference, create the badly termed 'versions,' of the same underlying truth.
It's the never observed from any reference frame, 'versions of truth' (lies), that folks such as maga evanhellicals and other such fanatics, peddle, that bother me most. I think the word fanatic should be applied more accurately. — universeness

How do we get at the truth?! Damn if we could identify the truth perhaps we could resolve our problems.

Seriously, I believe humans are capable of good reasoning based on truth, but I also think that requires an education that we are not getting.

Yep, The good the bad and the ugly, all claim to be working in accordance with the will of their chosen god or gods. :roll: From good folks like Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, to bad influencers like shamen, witch doctors, druids, popes, priests, imams and rabbis. all the way to ugly horrors like Hitler and Jack the ripper. — universeness

I am so glad you see that.

Have you ever done something you knew was wrong? What did you do to make that acceptable to you?

I could imagine myself being a suicide bomber when I was communicating with a Palestinian and an Egyptian in a forum. I saw their point of view and felt strongly that Zionism was intolerable and must be stopped. I wrote a letter to the editor opposing Zionism and men called me. One even cried as he thanked me for that letter. They were worried about my safety as they had bad experiences with organized Zionism. Thankfully I have not lived in the region under the power of Zionism, so I was not moved to act on my thoughts other than communicate a different point of view about Zionism and what it has done to Palestinians.

The problem isn’t someone’s particular spiritual or religious belief so much as the psychological stability of the person, and their empathy and the ability to see outside of their own ‘bubble’ (as the link you provided refers to). — 0 thru 9

Socrates said it is most important to know ourselves, to be aware of what we think and why we think what we think. What is our "story". I use the word "story" because of how that word is presented in a set of CDs about communication. Our story is not just what we tell ourselves about ourselves but also what we tell ourselves about "those people". Our stories determine our behavior unless we are aware of them and question them. What you just called being able to see outside of our own bubble.

Right now the US is supporting another war and the reporting on the cause of the war and what is happening is very one-sided and to my horror that is all some people know of the latest conflict. There is no reasoning, only emotional reaction. I can not tolerate discussing what is happening because I too am being reactionary. They are reacting to the propaganda and I am reacting to their ignorance (ignoring the facts) and beyond that their stupidity, and unwillingness to expand on what they think they know. So I would say there is a problem with our strong emotions and struggle to remain rational. Right now I would vote for someone I thought I would never vote for because he disapproves of the US getting involved with other people's wars. The only good thing I can see in that man. It is mind-blowing how our decisions can change and how much we are willing to give up, if one thing disturbs us enough. At least I seriously question my own sanity and knowledge.

But what in our lives brings us to do this, to question what we think we know and our own reaction? For me, I know it is the books I have read and the information I seek in an effort to be a better human being.
This just is not so for most people. They are not prepared to question themselves and seek more information than the information "authority" gives them. I would say my father was right. People do not want to think. That makes them pretty mindless followers. Now tell them to be patriotic and that God wills them to conquer evil and you can have a war. Mind you, everyone believes that war is for good reason and they are being very good human beings as they give their lives to the cause. They would be highly insulted if they were criticized. Men go to war for good reasons and their humanity, a willingness to sacrifice for others, is at a high point. We can not resolve the problem if we do not understand this.

This is true of one man with an automatic rifle in a mall, gunning down "those people" or a mob breaking into the Capitol. Education for technology increases the likelihood of people being narrow-minded and reactionary. One of my WWII books declares Germany was paranoid and it explains paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control. This leads to a police state and war as people do their best to be the best they can be.

If we take a character like Alexander the butcher. He, it seems, wanted to 'conquer the world' and impose the Macedonian/Greek notion of what civilisation was and create a human world that lived the way dictated by Alex and his cronies. Of course, the entire world as we know it today was not accessible for Alex and his mob. — universeness

I wish I had more time!! I just read about preparing the young to be warriors for my post above and immediately I see a failure to see life from a different point of view when one assumes he has the right to conquer the world. That seems to come with our cultural heritage and was made worse with religion and entering wars believing that is God's will.

I think that our culture (being a culture, as well as being a civilization, as well as being/becoming a global civilization) shares with smaller societies the drive to spread its ideas and memes among its members, and even to spread its beliefs beyond its borders.
This informational imprinting on a child starts right after birth.
As noted above, the ever-present and ever-growing media presence is a powerful teacher, perhaps equal to (or surpassing) parental and family ‘teaching’. — 0 thru 9

I had a hard time wrapping my mind around "memes". That is a complete abstract. They can not exist without the humans infected by them. I could not grasp a firm boundary for the word. However, I totally get the importance of the "story". We have shared stories and private ones. Joseph Campbell said mythology is very important and when we do not have a shared mythology we will make up our own, using the people in our lives and the characters for our private mythology.

In the past, that media presence would have been the clan's storyteller. Different cultural stories of creation fascinate me. It seems to me those civilizations that have creation stories that begin with a conflict of the gods were more apt to develop technology. Those with a creator or Earth Mother and no conflict between the gods seem less apt to develop technology.

There were tribes that raised their young to be aggressive warriors. Like Sparta, this begins the day a child is born. There were tribes that focused on compassion the opposite of the warrior mentality. I claim the change in education, in 1958 has led to the violence we are seeing today and a very serious cultural clash. A cultural clash results from people holding different stories.

https://openpediatricmedicinejournal.com/contents/volumes/V8/TOPEDJ-8-1/TOPEDJ-8-1.pdf

Public education is the most important factor in defending democracy because only when the principles of democracy are learned do they become functional memes.

Last night I watched a very interesting Public Broadcasting show about how technology changed our culture. With your help in understanding memes, I now get where that technology can function as a meme. The development of different forms of energy has been a major culture changer.

Wars are also extremely important to cultural change.

Not done with the reply but I am out of time.

That really depends on so many factors. There are many bad teachers, impatient teachers, 'moody' teachers, authoritarian nutjobs, slightly psychotic teachers. — universeness

:lol: That is very true. I was traumatized by a couple of them. My mother attempted to get me out of a class where I clashed with the teacher and the school said students are expected to learn how to get along with their teachers. Fine, I refused to do any assignments and had to repeat the class during summer school. I am sure everyone has such a story and so it is being a human. What really hurt was my time volunteering in a school and witnessing a couple of boys treated very badly! That led to one of them getting the extra help he needed, but nothing was done about the other boy and I was dismissed and lost my position in the organization that sponsored volunteers.

Oh dear, I thought of another terrible story involving my granddaughter and today I would take that one to court. I am sure many low-income people are less likely to pursue the legal means they have. And on to that granddaughter's son, my great-grandson, his life is being ruined as he struggles to do online classes with no help other than what an online teacher can give him. This is back to my point. Computers can be a useful tool but they can not replace a teacher.

True democratic socialism has never been successfully implemented as a national governance, anywhere today or in history. Many attempts have been made but none have been successful so far.
To nurture people and not profit.
To prioritise cooperation and not competition.
To act as the political equivalent of secular humanism.
To control the means of production, distribution and exchange, for the benefit of all and not just elites.
To govern by the democratically obtained consent of all stakeholders, and to continuously consult the population you represent at all levels.
To govern openly and accept all established checks and balances. — universeness

That is all about culture and never in the history of humanity have we been able to do so much for so many people. Never in the history of humanity have so many people lived so long and this is a game changer! Human consciousness at age 70 is totally different from what it is in our younger years. The need for universal medicine greatly increases but we need to work on the understanding that medical care is for everyone because it is very likely everyone will live long enough to need it. The service jobs have greatly increased with older people needing help. I think it is a hard shift from an Industrial economy to a service economy increasing numbers of long-lived people are pushing that shift and I am not sure if that can work.

We have great wealth but not the experience of living with it. We need to increase our understanding of economics to make good decisions about economics. Is supporting the war Industry better for than economy than say truly affordable housing with services for older people and excellent child care for all children?

What does 'be social' towards other people, mean to you?

It means all children are nurtured and live in security so that they grow up to be confident and excited about what they can do in life because of their developed interests and talents. That was the goal of public education before education for technology completely dominated education decisions. We added to that goal housing assistance but then failed to adequately fund that housing. We added food assistance and free lunches in schools and I think we are doing a fair job of this. Oregon scores high on medical care but our medical system may be breaking down because the for prophet system has some serious problems and I think we could do a thread on just this.

And my love, I must run and am late--- I am breaking down as too much is demanded of me. I hope you all carry on and know I don't mean to ignore any of this great community we are developing. :heart:

What follows is a description of a possible intersection of our Culture and the Individual, especially when looking for a ‘monkey wrench’ so to speak (that gut feeling that something in our way of life is somewhat out of order).
(At least, this is how I see it… that is, an extremely simplified overview lol). — 0 thru 9

I want to respond before I forget what I want to say. :lol: Representatives from around the world are gathering to discuss the possibility of a nuclear war and if we might end that threat permanently. In a completely different forum I am told history shows that wars are unavoidable. The proof is there have always been wars. Okay, when I read history I get the impression that age 40 used to be old age, and not many lived that long. That in a male's 40 years, war was expected and many males spent their lifetime preparing for war and engaging in war. How is this different from living with the fear of a nuclear war? To live a lifetime expecting to die young from disease, an accident, famine, or war may be good for preparing for a good death, but how about preparing for a good life?

Our minds are among the most powerful things in the known universe. — 0 thru 9

I love that argument!

Turn absolutely all the Earth into humans. This land is our land, for it belongs to us.
Who else is going to claim it? Squirrels? Giraffes? Honeybees? — 0 thru 9

The cockroaches.

But the pleasurable surge of power that was the reward for total domination didn’t need a college education to be experienced and enjoyed. — 0 thru 9

That is an interesting point, but the most successful would pass on their benefits and knowledge to their heirs and then follows the notion that these people are superior by birth, and then their status becomes a huge benefit. The idea that this superiority is about who has advantages and who does not is just beginning to enter our consciousness. This is potentially a point of consciousness transformation that is compatible with democracy.

So our Civilization imprints each of its members with the ‘gameplan’ or the ‘program’. — 0 thru 9

How is this imprinting done? Warning, the laboring class and the professional class raise their children differently. The laboring class is focused on obeying while the professional class will focus more on leadership roles.

I don't think the difference between classes was that great when Abraham Lincoln left the family farm and moved to the city where he learned to be a lawyer, as the difference between classes today. At the end of WWII, the GI Bill gave the men who gave military service a huge advantage of a college education when that education almost guaranteed upward economic mobility and they were also given low-interest loans for homes. These benefits helped White Males more than women or people of color but it was a move in the direction of democracy and women and people of color are beginning to benefit from the principles of democracy, so we have increased the number of advantaged citizens but now the gap between the advantaged and disadvantaged is greater than it ever was.

Studies have demonstrated that a person will resist only so long doing something they consider wrong or useless, when given negative feedback like pain or disapproval.
We are not machines after all, though sometimes we desperately try to be. — 0 thru 9

For sure adversity can destroy the human spirit if that is all a growing child knows because then the growing child will be focused on avoiding pain rather than on improving his/her life. That means your next sentence is not true! Especially not females and people of color when reality marginalized them.

But most likely, the foundational message will be remarkably similar: “go along with the civilizational program, and you will be rewarded!” — 0 thru 9

I am so sorry but I am out of time. Thank you for giving us so much to think about and to talk about.

Hi everyone- I am listening to the public broadcast channel discussion of nuclear weapons and I am highly emotional right now. The best way I can think of to deal with this is to say I love humanity and I thank you all for coming to our discussion and working so hard on how to make our world a better place and hopefully, a safer place no longer threatened by wars. Kim just said we need the courage to fight for peace. Can we do that?

Notice how you defer to religious authority. That's being religious. That's not being spiritual. — praxis

Please explain. Which religion do I authorize to be the authority?
Exactly what is spirituality? For me, it is a feeling. What is for you? Is spirituality a feeling?

I think all social animals have a hierarchy. I think it is important to honor our elders. I think it is foolish for the working hands on a ship to mutiny unless they have someone who knows as much as the captain.

How good are you at thinking paradoxically? :wink:

What you are saying here appears to be close to democratic socialism perhaps?
Which is quite fine in my book. Just wanted to get your feedback on that.
Now for a country like the USA to get a TRUE democracy joined with a TRUE socialism is the difficult part.
It’s difficult because the Elite (rhymes with excrete) the 1% and their servants and wannabes are pulling with all their mighty might in the opposite direction. — 0 thru 9

I do not like labels and I know nothing about socialism because I ignore labels. I also do not pay attention to human names but what a person does will get my attention. I don't have a head for individuals but perhaps a universalness? How do I say? My head asks where is humanity going and what is the best way to get there? This is not about me and you, but us. Does that make any sense?

universeness favors socialism and perhaps the two of you can agree on what it is and share that with me. I understand democracy as individuals having liberty and justice. Democracy enables people to be the best they can be, but autocracy prevents that. In an autocracy, you do not dare be insubordinate! this mentality prevents people from making their best contribution and it can lead to serious economic problems because it means Industrial problems do not get the full benefit of having humans who enjoy doing the right thing for the good of all.

I am concerned that socialism may require government control and that disempowers individuals.

As for the elite intentionally protecting the autocratic status quo, yes, I believe that is so. We do not have a good understanding of democracy. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended.

Whoo I just realized how paradoxical my thinking is. We are a small part of something much bigger than ourselves, yet we are individuals with liberty and justice.

I have spent my career in Computing science and AI can be a fantastic assist to humanity, in all the problems they face, on a day to day basis, both individually and as a community.
In my experience, 'expert systems,' have helped our children's education, advance, more than (or at least as much as) direct interaction with people/teachers/school systems.
Absolutely yes, yes, yes! Athena, AI can be used to spread fake news and AI can be used to deceive and manipulate. But please remember, that is only currently done via nefarious humans, not nefarious mecha. I don't know if a future AGI/ASI would become anti-biological life, such as anti-human life. That has been a long time discussion on TPF and is currently a main discussion happening on-line and in the global media today. So far, the only evidence I have encountered that suggests projected mecha might turn against us, is in sci-fi productions.
The warnings recently stated by those in the field of AI, regarding projected AI advances, seem to me, to be currently concerned more about how some nefarious humans might manipulate AI advances, rather than how AI might become independently malevolent towards us. Do You agree? — universeness

Absolutely not possible that a computer program can be more important to a child's learning than the teacher. What motivates us to learn is not a computer program but our human contacts. Oh, if you have an anti-social, angry young man, he may delight in using the computer to find out how to make bombs, but that is the most important education for a child. I think directing the student to use the computer rather than interact with the student because there are too many students in the room, could lead to a problem.

Last night on the news was an interview with the woman who wrote "Your Face Belongs to US". Face recognition technology is not widespread yet, but it has been used to direct security to prevent a person from entering places. Imagine someone like Trump with that technology. It does not matter that AI would or would not decide to do something evil because the humans who use it, gain the power to do evil. It does not take more than a handful of people to do a lot of evil, like spread the lie the vote was corrupted and the country must be protected by those who fight against the evil of corruption because good people can so easily be led to do the wrong thing.

I am not worried about AI being anti-human. I am worried about us being anti-human. Thinking computers are superior to humans or can be, is dangerously anti-human. We are not born knowing everything in our lifetimes we can make terrible mistakes as we stumble through life. However, I think the only way things can better is for us to truly love each other. If the God of Abraham didn't have favorite people and if this belief did not go with a Satan and demons, and believing in curses and give us a totally false story of creation, religion might be a good thing. I think we need to work on a good religion, not AI that can give a human terrible power.

Socrates and Plato were strong on us learning morality before we held the power to govern.

You do what you can Athena, as will I. I would rather be too busy, than be too bored.
My work in education burnt me out but since my early retirement, I now have quite a pleasant, 'fight for what I think is right' / chill out, have some whisky, beer and good cheers, paint, write, play computer games, etc, balance. Getting the balance to a stage that suits you, is what is needed. You cant help others, if you are 'messed up' yourself. — universeness

Thanks, I do understand. I am taking off for the beach today. It is not a great day for the beach but the recreation center bus goes today and I have a great raincoat. This is a rare event because I have clients 5 days a week and don't usually take time off for me.

And this chatting is what got us in the lounge. At least here we are free to be full humans and I think that is very important to everything else. Human relationships strongly impact everything. How we understand each other, strongly impacts what we think of someone and what we think that person thinks of us. It seems like we are trying to close out this humanness with unrealistic standards. Such as teachers should work miracles despite the lack of support and parents should help their children despite not having the preparation that teachers have. All these demands without concern for the bottom line- how do we feel.

I see that as a cultural problem made worse by technology. Comparing ourselves to computers is worse than comparing ourselves to the gods.

I think the answer lies somewhere between more help for those on the front line, from AI based expert systems and the establishment of more robust grievance procedures when you don't agree with the actions or decisions of your line managers. I think this would apply to all service based employment. — universeness

Okay, that is so for most schools and hospitals and social services. Reading your story I see only one possible solution that does not mean change but does mean good reasoning. Focus on facts! As long as you were giving parents facts, those above should be supportive of you and they too should deal honestly with the facts. How dare those SOB's leave a child believing his/her failure is his/her fault because s/he is just too stupid to succeed and the parents believing it is the child that needs to be corrected not what happens in the classroom. When parents understand the problem, they will hopefully be able to hire a tutor. Deal with the school's limits in a sane way! And here comes the cultural point....

We absolutely must end autocratic order that leaves those on the frontline powerless and failure unavoidable. Your favoring of AI terrifies me because it can make the problem worse. Can you see the possibility of our reliance on AI becoming a total nightmare? We must empower the people, not take another step towards destroying their power.

That is not necessarily the case. This was a run-down, trouble-prone housing project near the hospital where I worked. It got better since that time. There are many community gardens in big cities in the US, too. As gardening brings people together, so can an industry or reclamation project.

Any neighbourhood can become a community; given the resources and freedom, any well-functioning neighbourhood can become a self-governed political unit. One of the key factors to involve everyone, down to the toddler old enough to remember which weed to pull and big enough to carry a thermos, in the planning and in the work, to the extent of their capability, as well the benefits. Not to do things for other people, but with other people. — Vera Mont

What you said is agreeable but who is going to put in the effort to make that happen and how can such a dreamer activate the community? I am in the Bethel district and monthly I am notified about the committee's plans and I have done nothing! Especially since the meetings have been online, I have no desire to participate, yet I really want to address education and take action to make civic education mandatory. I think I am doing all I can do with my present commitments and that I don't have the energy to do anymore.

I have worked in a community garden and strongly agree with what you said. I don't think there is a community garden in Bethel and maybe I could do something about that, but until I end my present commitments I just don't have the energy to do more. But keep sending out your message and my desire to take action might get stronger than my concern about not having enough energy to do more.

God is both logos and pathos, or rather, order and chaos then? When you have time. — praxis

:chin: The pothos is not exactly chaos but can lead to chaos. :heart: Golly gee, it is fun thinking about what you said! Excitingly you speak of the rhetorical triangle.

Logos appeals to the audience's reason, building up logical arguments. Ethos appeals to the speaker's status or authority, making the audience more likely to trust them. Pathos appeals to the emotions, trying to make the audience feel angry or sympathetic, for example.

What are logos, ethos, and pathos? - Scribbr

The following triangle is valuable to our understanding of reality.

In the Vedic tradition, the ancient root of yogic philosophy, the concept of God or Supreme Reality is understood in a three-fold manner. The triple function of God, Trimurti in Sanskrit, is expressed as Brahma the creator, Vishnu the sustainer and Shiva the destroyer. Each energy has a specific task. Let us examine them. https://www.theyogasanctuary.biz/the-vedic-trinity-create-sustain-destroy/

That is different from the trinity of the Christian God, Father. Son, Holy Ghost, something Romans had a terrible time accepting because the concepts and language for accepting the trinity of God was Greek, not Roman. This concept/language problem led to a lot of killing because some saw the trinity as separate gods and the worship of 3 gods was not acceptable!!!

100%. The entirety of what you have said here is important.

If the stories of the US forefathers are true, they lived exceptionally vivid and important lives. If the stories are true, they were masters and practitioners of a sacred science.

If the stories about the US founding fathers (and mothers) are true, then I have only caught fleeting glimpses, despite my best efforts, of what they knew to be true. If the stories are true, those individuals are true Saints.

Truly Blessed, those people and us; regardless. I still hope the stories are true. I truly do. — Bret Bernhoft

Not all the stories are true because there was a deliberate attempt to write the American mythology as the Greeks wrote mythology. I do not know about them being practitioners of sacred science but there is a lot of mysticism tied to them. Principally sacred math is an important element of Masonry and I consider my copy of a book about sacred math as one of my most important books. This part of the Masons is responsible for the dome in the Capitol Building having a mural of gods including the Spirit of America which is one of 3 aspects of Athena, goddess of Liberty and Justice, and Defender of those who defend Liberty and Justice. There is also an Egyptian obelisk built in Washington DC. The layout of Washington DC is astrologically aligned.

Freemasonry is a worldwide organization with a long and complex history. Its members have included politicians, engineers, scientists, writers, inventors and philosophers. Many of these members have played prominent roles in world events, such as revolutions, wars and intellectual movements. — Callum McKelvie, Tom Garlinghouse

They were not saints but they were passionate and some still are today, believing they are very important in the global fight for Liberty and Justice. However, their exclusion of women makes them humans and nothing more.

I am running out of time and this might not help but logos is universal law. It happens this way because that is how the laws of the universe make it. This can be completely mechanical. Creativity can try new things and if the new thing isn't compatible it becomes extinct. We can call that chaos but we don't have to judge it as a bad thing. However, I am fascinated by the Egyptian and Aztec efforts to use math to understand the order of things and live in harmony with that order.

Ghost events are measured and mediums have been studied but I don't want to get into that. Science isn't knowing everything but is a method for learning about what is. Also, the first step to wisdom is "I don't know". We should never be too sure of what we think we know.

That post is super great. I want to add to what you said that Athenians thought democracies must have a small population. Here is another important thing about using a democratic model for Industry, the size of our population is huge and we can not have the democratic experience without belonging to organizations that are democratic.

Ouch, words fail me. How can we have anything but a slave mentality we are paid labor and nothing more. This is very much about how many people live in our city. If we know everyone in town we have a human experience with everyone. That is not so in large cities where we work to avoid each other because our numbers are overwhelming. Biologically we are limited to knowing a few people intimately and a few more on the friend level, then the associate level, and maybe 600 people on the tribal level.
At the tribal level we can know everyone's name and who the person is related to but not much more.

In our large cities, we are lonely people in the crowd. We live as strangers to each other and hopefully, we share some values and ideas about appropriate behavior. Culture gives a sense of safety as our lives are full of strangers, and if someone violates that culture, we may instinctively pull away and avoid that person. If we grow up with too much adversity our primary goal is to avoid people and new situations. Poverty can destroy hope and without hope, we go into avoidance behavior. Now make money the bottom line and further marginalize the less competitive people, and well- the social problems grow like bacteria and petri dish. Relying on laws and law enforcers for social control, will not work!!!

When we are living alone with strangers, our biological moral system goes out of order. We all know we can steal anything we want from the big box stores because they have plenty of money and our stealing doesn't hurt them. I am being sarcastic as I try to make a point. There is honor among thieves because of the personal associations. If I know you and become aware of hurting you, I will feel bad but I don't know you and don't have to deal with hurting you, then what I want is all that matters. What I am saying is we are part of something bigger than ourselves, but if we don't feel we belong and do not have personal caring relationships, there is going to be trouble.

We can not have the democratic experience without belonging to a group that provides that experience.
When speaking of an experience, words are not adequate. How responsible do we feel for our family, our place of employment, our community, our nation? If we do not feel responsible, we are not having the democratic experience.

:up: Thanks for your reply! :smile:

I was going to respond by saying something like “this (situation you described) is completely unacceptable in an affluent First-World country… ”.
But that sounds a bit hollow and callous to my ears for some reason…
Would it be acceptable anywhere? Why?

Our Mother Culture’s* answer: “It is difficult to accept, and so very tragic [wipes away a tear].
But we must face Reality, and see how the sausage gets made. However, such suffering is inevitable for those on the primative low rung. Only the strong can stomach the harsh reality.
(We didn’t make the rules! Darwin did). But wait! There is an upside! If only those (natural but backward) people join us in our technological journey to the heavens, then they too will get a delicious piece of the pie!” (A tiny piece, mostly crust lol).

But what are the consequences of following such thinking?
(For it is meant to be followed, and definitely not just theoretical).

Unfortunately, I’m still trying to rinse my brain clear of the persistence of our cultural propaganda, an indoctrination that’s even deeper than party politics. (Deeper because it is uncontested by both parties, and even by most of the ‘fringe’).
There’s an ignorant (and thus quite insistent and loud) though unwanted voice that lingers in my mind, which tells me that those people in distant lands living in makeshift huts are actually just squatters on the property of Civilization.
Not unlike the squirrels living in an apple orchard: tolerated as long as they don’t get in the way of progress.

Then I realize that I may not agree with every persistent thought that pops up in my head.
I think I have more brain rinsing to do, to hopefully get rid of the brainwashing…
(it’s a work in progress).

* ‘Mother Culture’ being a term I find useful, one used by Daniel Quinn to personify the cultural indoctrination that lives in our unconscious and carries immense influence. — 0 thru 9

What you just said is fundamentally the same as what universeness said. We can not have quality lives unless we meet our human needs and that means more than money. If a person works under conditions that are physically and mentally exhausting more money will not resolve the problem. I always volunteered because in general volunteers are treated better the paid workers. We seem to live a slave owner mentality, of "I paid you and you better meet my demands".

My head is screaming we must replace autocratic industry with a democratic model. All the workers need to feel appreciated and we need to respect the whole person by empowering the individual to say what would improve the working conditions and therefore manifest a better outcome for everyone.

I attended workshops teaching the democratic model for supervisors and was blown away by realizing how the democratic model of Industry would greatly improve the quality of our families because the democratic model treats everyone very well and the worker who learns how to treat others well will bring this home to the family.

Wow what a story that was. My heart is heavy to think everyone's good intentions came to such a sad ending because they all forgot one thing. To take care of you and check with you before you were so burnt out that quitting was the only option. The people making the decisions were not getting the feedback they needed to make good decisions. Hope I remember your story and think of it when I speak about education in my community.

It is not enough to want the very best for children. We must also take good care of the teachers. I think today, in other professions as well, we are demanding too much of the people doing the job. Our Industrial age was dehumanizing and high tech has increased the problem, and there is a pushback, that is unfortunately burnt out people quitting. I don't know how things are going where you live but we can not find enough people to do the jobs that need to be done and this is matters worse!

Culturally, what is driving this problem, and might we improve how we treat each other? I am thinking of the class in public administration that I took, that taught when someone is over stressed the job needs to be divided and more people added. But if everyone is driven to cut cost and demands more and more of workers, things can go wrong. What can we build into our culture that might prevent that?

You and the Universe make me regret I have been too busy to carefully read and participate in the discussion.

Please be patient with me. It is past bedtime:cry:

Everything has become about money and war. Today's education is not the education children once had. We educated our young to be well-rounded individuals and to have good moral judgment without religion. I promise I will do my best to return as soon as I can. I think what we are doing here is very important. I am about saving the world and that is a hard job when I am all by myself. It is great to not be alone with my mission.

I am an example of such a teacher, who took early retirement at 55, because I was burnt out because of the education system in Scotland. — universeness

That is so sad. I have never thought of Socrates or Plato getting burnt out as teachers but they did not attempt to educate anyone younger than 30 years old. Being a school teacher today would be so different from education as they saw it.

It might help if you explain why you got burnt out. I am curious and I think it is something we need to seriously explore. My grandmother was teaching her whole until Alzheimer's destroyed her ability to do so somewhere around 80 years old. Her generation of teachers believed they were defending democracy in the classroom by preparing the young to be the best they could be. Their job was to help each child discover his/her interests and talents. I love the older school books that I have. This is why I write. Teachers are so valuable and we should not tolerate conditions that burn them out. Please, tell me more.

In recognition of the possibility, that it was mostly my mind jumps, rather than the contributions of Vera Mont or @Athena that caused what you considered a thread worthy of maintaining its position as a mainline thread, getting sent to the lounge, where other TPF members have opined, is the place threads go to die. Which at least, has been shown, is not always true.
Perhaps my 'sorry' was more of a recognition of a possibility that 'influenced' @Jamal's action, rather than an aspect of my thought processes that I sometimes regret. I consider my 'butterfly mind,' a great asset in the main. — universeness

I want to assure you of your value. I have noticed I am writing with your influence on my mind. I say something and wonder if it would be agreeable with you and I have a desire for that to be so. For me this is progress. You and others have expanded my mind and I agree with the mods that what is happening here is not technically philosophy as our technologically correct times judge philosophy. But I think Socrates and Plato would approve.

I appreciate the love. That was a nice surprise. — Bret Bernhoft

I am very passionate about education and democracy and I seriously do love it when someone is supportive of education and democracy. That is very rare today. It does require some literacy in Greek and Roman classics and it seems they have been replaced with German philosophers.

:love: In harmony with the subject an atheist but not a materialist, "The pen is stronger than the sword". The US forefathers risked everything for democracy and obviously, life is about more than matter.

Nature is infinitely more cruel than any human could be. :smirk: — praxis

The rock that rolls down a mountain and crushes a man is being cruel? Your wording is intellectually stimulating. Old age can be very cruel but that is getting too close to creating an evil being/force don't you think? Nature does not intend to be cruel, but that is a human perception of some physical changes. We may be tempted to appease the gods when we think of nature being cruel. This is really being nit picky but it is also an exploration of how nature became unnatural in our minds.

You're quite wrong about this. Most scientific and technical innovations prior to the scientific revolution were achieved by societies organized by religious traditions. Ancient pagan, Islamic, and Christian scholars pioneered individual elements of the scientific method. Historically, Christianity has been and still is a patron of sciences.

Please give me something from the Bible that demonstrates how this word of God brought us to science.

Religions deliberately use heratics (e.g., "the Bible says there will be people who reject God and they are evil") to shore up group identity by defining what they are not. It is a very effective tactic and that's why it is so widely used. Indeed, it's such an effective tactic that no one can get off it.

That is true however we don't need to prove them right. I say there is a God, it is logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe and it does not have human qualities. As Cicero said, it does not give us what we want when we burn candles and say prayers. Nature does not care- it just is. Now the argument is not about the existence of God. The argument is about the definition of God. I do not make the Christian right by denying there is a god.

I have no idea of what you're talking about here.

A Greek argument is everything has a purpose. Horses run. Birds fly. Humans reason. It is because we reason that is possible to argue until we have a consensus on the best reasoning and can therefore govern ourselves with reason. This is opposed to being ruled by kings or the Church, which maintains power by killing the opposition to their power. The Kingdom of the Bible is not compatible with democracy and I will again say, the Bible is not a book for math and science.

'

I suggest that you seriously consider what the actual purpose of religion is and why it exists. Also, consider if there's a difference between spirituality and religion.

Well, let's see. It seems to me the most common purpose for Christians to be religious is fear! Next in importance is social acceptance and belonging. I remain silent as I care for older people who tell me how great God is. They need their belief as they face death. I have my belief about immortality too. I am not sure we are not reincarnated. I like to be open-minded about that.

For others, religion is about controlling the people. For many, when there were few desirable jobs, entering the church hierarchy was an excellent way to have a good standard of living especially when after the Protestant Reformation allowed preachers to have sex. I don't think the US would elect an atheist for president and for sure the winners use religion to get the votes. The presidents of the US have used Christianity to engage in wars. Billy Graham was behind uniting us against the communists by aligning us with God on our money and pledge of allegiance.

In some communities, Christians have greater control of education than in other communities. Teachers had to go to the Supreme Court to stop Texas from forcing teachers to teach creationism as equal to science. I am sure those Christians mean well and we do need to talk about being human and the agreements we should have. Right now both atheists and Christians are being a huge problem because they are both preventing us from having the discussion we need to have.

I think if Orwell could have imagined an artificial general intelligence in 1949 his book 1984 would have been a bit different. Can you imagine the power of media manipulation and surveillance it could have? We appear to be rapidly approaching AGI and those who develop it, the excessively wealthy, will be in control. — praxis

I think we should consider that possibility.

Have you seen the British show "Humans"? It is pretty heavy as it pushes us to take another look at our values. Not everyone you see in this clip is a human. Some are programmed robots. A few of them have self-awareness. Do you want one?

This is a crucial question.

And because it seems difficult to not think it sounds like a naïve question or adopt a jaded, cynical, or pessimistic attitude towards it, may illustrate how low our expectations have slid.

A culture that can’t cover such a basic need is in trouble. (Probably not breaking news to anyone… ) — 0 thru 9

Thank you. I can remember that question from my childhood as my mother could only work for low women's wages and was paid less than a man hired to do the same job. Back in the day, our economic structure favored men. I was somewhat confused as I thought poverty was shameful but we all had an opportunity to get an education. On the other hand, that did not include equality at the college and career level. I was totally unaware of any assistance programs and wondered, how caring was our society? As an adult, I have heard other nations are doing much better. I have not experienced other nations so I am not sure but I still wonder about what are the possibilities.

Growing up in constant insecurity and feeling like a less-valued member of society left me wounded and in my old age I wonder about these things even more because now I can look back and see how the condition of a child's life shapes the child and the problems are passed on generation to generation. Christianity has not made a big difference. In fact, governments intentionally used it to make some people believe poverty is tolerable and even virtuous. So is there something better?

One thing I am relatively sure of is the importance of education and I do not think education for technology and leaving moral training to the church is the best education for a civilization. Coming from Socrates and Plato I think good moral judgment is a vital part of education. And here I agree with Nietzsche. A pagan zeal for excellence may serve us better than being humble and passively enduring inequality and injustice.

I pointed out that a religion is not "as we make it". It's highly dogmatic by nature, in other words, and when revisions are made it's by religious leaders. Followers are not free to make up their own beliefs and promote them within a religion. That would be considered heretical. — praxis

Your post is one of the most mentally stimulating posts I have read this year. I am going to say a lot and I am not sure how correct these new to me, ideas, are.

When I say it is as we make it, I mean our whole experience of life is as we make it. I don't mean we have manifested the earth, but what we do with it is what we, not a god, does with it. We have manifested New York and international enemies and friends. A religion is what we make it, because this is all about what we think and how we behave. Humans with words and the power of reason manifest their own reality. Their private perception of reality may have very little to do with facts. We all make up our own life story and we share some of our stories in common with others. That is called culture.

Even atheists are sure what a god is and it is not possible to discuss logos and the prime mover with them because they absolutely can not give up their understanding of a humanized god.
— Athena

I'm aware of various of conceptions of God, some very unlike the one depicted in the Bible. I see no reason why an atheist would be unable to consider an inhuman God. Indeed, the God depicted in the Bible strikes me as extremely inhuman.

God is a manifestation of thought- meaning we think it and it becomes a shared notion. Atheists can not argue against the existence of God without sharing the same notion of a God that they argue does not exist.

By a nonhuman god, I mean the prime mover and logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. The gods that are worshipped are made in the image of man. That is not so for the prime mover or logos. I do not mean a jealous, revengeful, punishing God is an inhuman God. :lol: Sometimes we can really get tripped up on our words. I am saying the power and glory is not a being with human traits.

Also, religions don't all agree on logos and the prime mover. There is no prime mover in Buddhism, for instance, and they'd consider the dualism inherent in logos an expression of ignorance.

Abrahamic religions most certainly do not have a concept that would lead to scientific thinking. they do not have a concept of a Prime Mover or logos. Their brains have zero thought patterns for thinking in such terms. I am not sure that is true of Hinduism or Buddhism. Buddhism can be very different from place to place. Some regions are more superstitious than others. And of course, some understanding of Hinduism is very superstitious and the highest level of thinking is patterned for logic and abstract thinking and therefore philosophical, the Siamese twin of science.


They absolutely insist all discussions of god match the Christian notion of a god and therefore it is impossible to discuss a notion of god as forces of nature with no human qualities.
— Athena

It doesn't make any sense to me why an atheist would be unable to discuss the notion of god as a force of nature with no human qualities. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, I was responding to your claim about a religion. Of course, individuals can have their own spiritual experiences and beliefs.

I had no intention of saying an atheist can not think in scientific terms. But God is not science. Now if we say God is not any of the gods made in the image of humans, but God is the Prime Mover and logos, or nature, then we can use science to understand God. However, atheists refuse to do that!!! They shot themselves in the foot by refusing to use the word "God". That just proves all the religious people right because the Bible says there will be people who reject God and they are "evil" and reality is a fight of good over evil, and we are on the damn merry-go-round of arguing about God and no one can get off it.
The way to apply science to superstitious notions is to think in terms of a prime mover, logos, universal laws, and nature.

Democracy can be a religion.
— Athena

No, that would be a Theocracy.

Huh?

Theocracy-- a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
"his ambition is to lead a worldwide theocracy"

That is not true of a democracy because the damn God is the prime mover, logos, the laws of nature. Excuse my pagan emotive language but there we go with the merry-go-round. Who gets to define God? You just threw the prime mover and logos out the window and destroyed the reasoning of democracy. Can we discover the laws of the universe and base our laws on such knowledge? Isn't that fundamental to democracy?

“God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Cicero

The word God comes from Germany after the fall of Rome. I am sure Cicero did not use that word, but our Christian understanding is so ingrained in our culture that we are forced to think of God in a very limited understanding of God. I read Cicero to say Logos, not the Christian God.




Anyone who does not hold our understanding of truth is an idiot, right?
— Athena

Within religion, anyone who does not hold the "understanding" of Truth is considered to have no faith. I use scare quotes because no religion has understandable truths, by design. Ultimate truth requires ultimate authority, ensuring a hierarchy of leaders (who have special access to ultimate truth) and followers.[/quote]

Moral, is a matter of cause and effect. When the consequences are good it is moral. If the consequences are bad it is immoral.
— Athena

How would this understanding apply to something like abortion? I think that for any normal person abortion 'feels' wrong, so one consequence of it is a bad feeling. That indicates that it's immoral, according to the cause & effect view. On the other hand, studies indicate that legalizing abortion reduces crime/poverty, a good consequence.

Things become less clear when it comes to personal rights, authority, and tradition. The values that shape our personal and social identities often disagree on the consequences of abortion. — praxis

Athens's patron goddess favored the life of a man over a woman's life and I have a problem with that patriarchy.

I

In the case of ancient Athens, abortion was not forbidden by law. However, this right was not directed at the woman and her sovereignty over her body but at the rights of the father of the child she was carrying (Flacelière, 1971).May 19, 2023

Ancient Athenian Women and the issue of abortion
https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/archaeology-classics-and-egyptology/blog/2023/ancient-athenian-women-abortion/#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20ancient,carrying%20(Flaceli%C3%A8re%2C%201971).

I think, when it comes to abortion we might want to ask what does "liberty" mean? For darn sure a woman with a child, in her belly or her arms, does not have liberty. If she does not want to be a mother and/or does not have the ability to provide for the child, the effect of her pregnancy will not be good.

How does society look at mothers who need help supporting a child? Is she honored almost as much as the Great Earth Mother or is she shamed and marginalized? Will her child be welcomed by the community and be valued by this community? It is not just the mother and child we need to consider but also the community the child is being born into.

PS How about privacy? I think privacy is very important and what we do with our bodies including not only abortion but also the right to die with dignity, is between ourselves and God. There are some things that are public and others that are private. Government and our neighbors should stay out of what is private.

I would first, again clearly state, my lack of academic qualifications in philosophy. — universeness

It is not knowledge that is the end all but how we process our thoughts. Anyone can be valuable in the discussions providing the individual has had preparation for logical thinking and is not 100% driven by emotions. Today most arguments are nothing but emotionally driven conflicts. Especially in politics.

The conflict Athenians had with those who taught rhetoric skills and the old-school philosophers tickles me.

Plato and Socrates believed these teachers and their rhetorical teachings were dangerous because they promised anyone the ability to make compelling arguments in courts and the assembly without a clear sense of the values that should guide this kind of speech.

Chapter 2: The “Origins” of Rhetorical Theory
https://open.lib.umn.edu/rhetoricaltheory/chapter/chapter-2/#:~:text=Plato%20and%20Socrates%20believed%20these,guide%20this%20kind%20of%20speech.

Wouldn't Plato and Socrates have a cow if they saw today's advertisements and political campaigns?

That being said, there will be those who haven't even noticed it, tucked away as it is.
I haven't read it all. Only sampled a few pages. That was enough for me to 'pipe in'.
I felt the need to question. But that's me being me. Avoiding housework. — Amity

This thread has wandered all over the place and I hadn't noticed it was moved to the lounge but I can live with all that because I think the few of us who stayed with the thread have made progress. What is happening here will seep into other threads and eventually, the movement may change the world because this is not the only place that is part of the movement. The whole notion of democracy and logos has been around for thousands of years, but right now that knowledge seems seriously limited.

The priority purpose of education in the US was good citizenship that would make our republic united and strong. We prepared everyone for good moral judgment without the Church! As the Athenians did we created an American mythology and this was part of preparing our young to be good citizens. That is education transmitted a culture that is essential to democracy and our liberty. Only when democracy and liberty are defended in the classroom is it defended. That is what makes culture critical.

Yes, I agree. — Vera Mont

Okay, I now hope we can bring Universeness around to the possibility that is the foundation of our democracy- humans will do as well as they know how to do and if we want to change things, we need to begin with education, including the education of adults. That is the importance of this forum.

We need to make some agreements about how things should be and then how we can achieve it. People breeding like rabbits was great when most of us died before our 40th birthday but it is not a good thing today. Waiting for a God to solve our problems is not an option if we destroy this planet, He is not going to give us another one to mess up and we will mess it up as long as He gives us free will.

:heart: Humans are intelligent animals and that is best when they are well educated but that is not thinking of the young as products to prepare for industry or education for technology that makes them dependent on authority over them.

Your generalised historical description of those events are accurate and you know I fully agree that they cannot be justified. My question to you then becomes. Do you think many more humans, all around the planet, now utterly condemn those events, than ever have in the past? If you agree, then does that not speak well for the progression of the general enlightenment of our species? I would also say to Athena, that I think such improvements in general enlightenment, are happening, despite regressive god posit influences or old Greco/Roman fables. My main argument with you Vera , is, as you know, your at times, general disdain of your entire species, because of the vile actions of a nefarious few. — universeness

Thank you for the mention. You made me think of today's news about national leaders who appear to benefit themselves by exploiting others. To jump on universeness's side of the argument, CEOs who get million-dollar salaries are no better than those terrible leaders who use force to silence unhappy citizens. I am really quite amused right now by the unions demanding the workers get the same pay raise as the millionaire CEOs have gotten. Auto workers, nurses, the entertainment industry.

:chin: How long do you think it will take the capitalist to realize their is a problem with their formula for wealth?

I was a caregiver for a while and my wages were so low I could provide my children with a decent standard of living. Doing my very best was not good enough for the children's well-being and they turned against the values they were taught. They came back to those values, but not before having children of their own and really messing up their lives.

If I were king, all decisions would be based on what is best for the children and living sanely within the limits of nature. It would be a law that the population can not exceed the resources of the community. Diverting a river that many states must use, to provide for overpopulated places would be forbidden.
Laws would be based on laws of nature!!!

Thomas Jefferson is a favorite American hero of mine. His time on the planet was a special period of human history. So it's interesting that you would mention his definition of pursuing happiness in relationship to the non-material.

In terms of a more robust historical type of education, I'm aware that medieval universities taught something known as the "quadrivium". Which was the effort to create well-rounded and balanced thinkers by focusing on arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music; cosmic languages. Today, as you point out, we are limited in our learning; at least when compared to the past.

So it is indeed the responsibility of the individual to seek out knowledge and wisdom, in order to find this sacred middle space. — Bret Bernhoft

I love you. :love: And our democracy will continue to self-destruct until we all know what you said.

Fortunately, someone was wise enough to introduce convicts to the classics and it was discovered these classics could be life-changing. Unfortunately, the Christian understanding of humans and God keeps us in the dark ages before the Renaissance brought back the knowledge of the Greek and Roman documents. People who study only the Bible are not literate enough to protect and defend democracy. They are waiting for a kingdom. :grimace: