What has changed is that nowadays, one needs to know about science in order to be a decent citizen of a civilized society. — Ludwig V

I can generally agree with this. I think there has always been a disparity between those with knowhow and those not, but the information age has caused something of a hiccup I feel.

If you go down that road then everything relates to everything. Colin Renfrew is a pioneer in Cognitive Archaeology, for example.

My point was that an historian is an historian and an archaeologist is an archaeologist. Obviously they are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but they are distinct fields of investigation following different methodologies.

Why would people drag 'happiness' into social organization? — Vera Mont

Satisfying people's wants and needs is part of the utopian ideal.

What is a singular society? — Vera Mont

Utopian. The very principle of a utopian society is one that is furnishing everyone's requirements.

This is one basic assumption about humans on which you and I disagree. All living things have needs in common; all members of a phylum have even more in common; all members of a family have even more in common; all members of a species are more like one another than they are like any other species. — Vera Mont

Yes, but people still differ. the larger the population the prominent differences become as they grate harder on each other. With Dunbar's Number we know that societal ties breakdown over a certain population threshold. Separate communities in a utopian society cannot stably coexist because of this limitation.

Like I mentioned briefly in the video Nozick does speak of a 'existential utopian' framework, but it exists as a holistic whole separated from other different utopian models. The 'existential utopian' position is conducive with multiple existing utopian models but not with them existing as a holistic whole.

Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia Pages 317-20 should cover what I am referring to. Subheading "The Framework as Utopian Common Ground"

It is the extreme I am against. If someone believes they have an idea that can alter society 'at large' then they are peddling some form of ideology. I do not care how good the outcome they are hoping for is I just know it will not come to fruition how they expect.

No one is a prophet, they just play at being a prophet. Just because we remember those whose faulty predictions seem to have played out roughly as they said they would, this does not discount the hundreds of others who appeared to have had equally valid arguments but whose forecasts turned out to be completely wrong.

There is no 'Social Science' in anything but name. When people forget this horrific things happen.

I have always thought of it as much more complicated than that. — Ludwig V

It is primarily dedicated to objectively recording the data of sites and artifacts in meticulous detail. The conjure comes later, as with practically every other scientific endeavor.

Historians deal with the written word. I was pointing out this clear distinction as whoever posted what they need seemed to think historians were archaeologists. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but they operate on completely different levels of investigation and data collection.

Mine are slightly different, and my idea of a good society - one that aspires to incremental improvement in the life of every individual - certainly doesn't include brainwashing. — Vera Mont

That was an example of how everyone would be happy. the simple truth is people are different and as long as they are different utopia is impossible - hence clones or forcing conformity.

In no way shape or form are humans alike enough to inhabit - en masse - a singular society. If they choose to leave then it is clearly not a utopian society. This is why I was a little puzzled by Nozick using the term 'Existential Utopia,' which I take he means as an amalgam eventually resulting in a more or less homogenous society - but this would be just a progressive creeping towards the death of individualism in favour of conformity (albeit cloaked in its approach).

Mine are slightly different, and my idea of a good society - one that aspires to incremental improvement in the life of every individual - certainly doesn't include brainwashing. Nor is there any reason for a good society to operate on a single model. — Vera Mont

I think the general outline of the term Utopia is far more than merely a 'good society'. The push and pull between individualism and state authority is the biggest hurdle for utopian ideals. They all effectively resort to enforcing policies through the general will of the population, which results in (what seems to be) necessary division in any given society.

Note: I have not finished Nozick's chapter on this yet so many he will offer up something interesting.

A historian can go into ground and look for artifacts, his claims are falsifiable. — Johnnie

Archaeologist. That is a science.

@Vera Mont Hopefully this will outline more or less my position: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cPmjSOpgo

Pacifism is pacifism. It works sometimes.

The only exception would be in acting in self-defense in a non-violent manner. Pinning someone on the ground before running away would not be 'harmful' other than it harms their intentions.

The first rule of self-defense is certainly not to attack first, it is to run away. Self-defense can also involve disarming and incapacitating your attacker in a non-violent/non-harmful manner.

So self-defense is still possible. If you are saying self-defense requires bodily harm to the attacker then you say this is impermissible, then it is impermissible!

:up:

In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion,

:up: Looks just like the kind of thing I was looking for.

Free Access here: https://archive.org/details/dli.pahar.3709/page/13/mode/2up

That seems a bit much to me. I think confusing similar concepts is enough to explain. ucarr appears very thoughtful to me, and wanting to engage - I tend to see a lack of wanting to engage with pseudo-intellectualism (couple of other threads active rn are dead-on examples). I tend favour incompetence instead of maliciousness or deceptiveness to explain these things :P Perhaps I'm a bit sanguine as to this. — AmadeusD

The two can be mutually exclusive.

Maybe this person is just trying to approach something extremely obscure. Kudos to them then. Whatever is going on here I see nothing in it for me. Maybe on a another topic they can discuss in a more fluid and succinct manner, or maybe not.

Have fun all :)

And this?

with a 'bad' act (eg. violence to suppress violence) to be 'bad in-itself'. This is clearly false equivalence. — I like sushi

You use 'bad' and 'bad in-itself' in two seemingly distinct ways. Or should they both be taken as 'bad in-itself'.

Have you ever taken a test that asks you an essay question? Essay questions are not yes/no questions, nor are they multiple choice questions where you check the correct box. Essay questions ask the person to write an essay pertinent to the issue raised by the question. This is the hardest type of question because you're on your own judgment about what is the best answer. So, yes, there is no simple, bracketed answer indicated by the question, but that's because it wants you to be expansive in the expression of your pertinent thoughts. — ucarr

What question? There is no question in the OP.

You threw a question at me when I asked for clarity. How about you show me how to answer it. That might actually be useful for both us in gaining some degree of mutual understanding.

Is there a bridge linking "what" with "how" in the context I've elaborated here? — ucarr

I am not in an exam (plus my first post addressed the point in the OP and the issues with your "elaboration"). Tell me if there is or isn't AND explain it concisely.

Thank-you for your time and energy because your involvement, something requiring my defense, has empowered me to better understand what I'm trying to communicate within this conversation. — ucarr

We will see I guess.

1. It is morally impermissible to perform an action that is in-itself bad;
2. It is morally impermissible to directly intend something bad—even for the sake of something good;
3. Harming someone is, in-itself, bad. — Bob Ross

Self-Defense can also be classed as a form of staving off harm committed to others. If one does not defend oneself then the perpetrator of the violence will likely be more emboldened to repeat their harm on multiple others.

So #2 is a no goer.

And #3 is trying to smuggle in 'bad in-itself' as being equivalent to 'bad'.

I say the above because you seemed to frame rape as being 'bad in-itself' whereas I do not see defending one's self, or others, with a 'bad' act (eg. violence to suppress violence) to be 'bad in-itself'. This is clearly false equivalence.

I can get onboard with stating that some acts are 'morally impermissible' (barring utterly ridiculous hypothetical situations that entail one having to act in a horrendous manner in order to save others). It is certainly not morally impermissible to punch someone in the face, but it is without a damn good reason to do so. The REASON adds weigh to the permissibility of an act.

I'm not sure what this is meant to mean, but there is precisely zero muddle or problems witht eh words in my account. They are straight-forward, easy to understand and delineate, and adequately refer to the two distinct things I am referring to. — AmadeusD

Pseudo-intellectualism is looking like the most probably explanation of this person's writing. I mean look at this needless word salad:

what the differences are between the two titans: science/art, and how those modal differences are mediated by the unifying synchro-mesh of ecology.

I am prone to florid sentences myself sometimes but this is just too much for me to stomach anymore.

A pure consequentialist would disagree. There could be a rather bizarre circumstance when some generally perceived 'bad' act was essential to prevent several million other 'bad' acts on even more vulnerable people.

Or how about someone trying to commit rape then becoming the rape victim? Are these equally 'bad'?

I was suggesting "optimal" not "ideal". By all means strive for betterment. It is the idea that someone believes they know what the best is that irks me.

I know, I know. Sorry for the glib comment :)

I guess you could also argue that #1 is impossible and therefore irrelevant. Meaning there is no instance that is in-itself bad. The 'badness' is only existent within specific contexts.

The Utopian ideal is a high-functioning, happy society on Earth, where people and the environment can thrive. It can only be approached by small incremental improvements, not massacres. — Vera Mont

I do not think it ever pans out like that. Incremental steps toward an impossible ideal are leaps compared to shooting for a better future. The measuring stick for an unreachable goal is infinite.

1. It is morally impermissible to perform an action that is in-itself bad;
2. It is morally impermissible to directly intend something bad—even for the sake of something good;
3. Harming someone is, in-itself, bad. — Bob Ross

So we should stand by and watch someone brutally murder several innocent people because it is 'bad' to harm the murderer. :D

Any Utopian worth their salt knows that ends don't justify means; the means determine the ends. — Vera Mont

The road to hell ...

If Christians tried to behave like Jesus, they would feed one another, not execute them. — Vera Mont

My point is they would fail and know they are failing. Imagine a world of people walking around thinking they are the saviors of humanity. I do actually think they would be more likely to execute one another (albeit by the hands of others maybe) than feed to support each other.

Changing society at large ... Have you already managed to pull off one, single change to society, no matter how small? — Tarskian

I warned against anyone trying to do so and am against anyone trying to do so. I am against Hitlers and Pol Pots who put plans in action for their own personal utopian ideal.

Understand?

Why not aim for the ultimate - even though you may have to settle for whatever you can reach? — Vera Mont

You are less likely to kill people reaching for something that is impossible and less likely to justify their deaths by claiming to be holding to some utopian ideal.

By all means search for whatever inner utopian ideal you wish, but do not assume anyone else wants it nor that they would welcome it - that is the thrust of my point.

That's what you aim for, the standard against which you measure your actual accomplishment. — Vera Mont

Speak for yourself. Keep it to yourself too :) If everyone was walking around trying to be Buddha/Jesus/Mohammad/Whatever, I have strong reasons to believe the world would quickly become a dystopia.

We should realize that arrival at the perfect Utopia is not very probable, but it remains the only truly worthy goal.
— Chet Hawkins
Just so. — Vera Mont

I think it is probably better to aim for a possible optimum than assume an ideal. Once an 'optimum' is reached the situation can then be reassessed.

On the flipside I would disagree with what I said in terms of personal goals but stick firmly to it if attempting to apply to society at large.

After all, "suffering" isn't a "problem to solve" but rather an exigent signal to adapt one's (our) way of life to reality by preventing foreseeable or reducing some imminent disvalue/s. :fire: — 180 Proof

I would even go so far as to argue if one is against suffering one is against life. Suffering is not 'bad'. I imagine a great number of people here 'suffer' when reading philosophical works, or 'suffer' as they struggle to express their ideas.

A lot of people do some basic research and find out that the so-called "top notch" medical care in their own country is massively overpriced, not actually any better than some foreign alternatives or both.

One only has to look at how ridiculously overpriced basic meds and procedures in the US compared to other western or foreign equivalents.

Many people are now waking up to the realisation that they can spend $5000 at home or have a 2 week holiday and get treatment for $3000.

Of course there are some cases where the equipment is not available - but rarely the knowhow.

It is your thread so you should provide clarity of what you are asking instead of throwing out random questions and having others guess what you are talking about.

If you are just riffing, fair enough. If you have something explicit to say I have not seen it yet.

They is no direct question in the OP (very nebulous). There are fundamental flaws with how you outlined science. Even in the discussions you are having with others hear I see virtually nothing relevant to the misconceptions expressed in the OP.

Perhaps if you show me how you would answer the previous questions you asked of me it would elucidate what you are actually getting at. Failing that I will just leave you to it. If so, have fun :)

The above is my launch into the spine of my OP. — ucarr

And you start by making an obvious error. All questions are "what?" questions.

How does ice melt? = What are the processes/mechanisms that cause ice to melt?

With his paper, "The Hard Problem," David Chalmers shows in stark fashion what science, so far, cannot do: it cannot objectify the personal point of view of an enduring, individual self with personal history attached. It can technologize the self via computation, but the result isn't an authentic self. Instead, it's just a simulation of the self without an autonomous self-awareness. This technical self is just a machine awaiting additional source code from humans. — ucarr

There are many questions that science struggles to address. How consciousness works (what are the processes of consciousness) and what it is (what it does) are scientific questions.

Any question is potentially a scientific one - scientific method can be applied to SOME degree.

Expressing emotions and blind opinions are not scientific, but we can investigate the cognitive science behind why some people do this and explore how it can be useful (in a scientific manner NOT an emotional one instilled with blind opinions).

If there's a grain of truth in what I've written above, then Tarskian is correct in the characterization of the Incompleteness Theorem being the cause of a crisis in science and math. Jeffrey Kaplan compounds the reality of this crisis with his exegesis of Russell's Paradox. — ucarr

I think Husserl started to address this by pointing out that psychology does not deal with subjectivity - because it takes on a material objective measurement of non-material subjective content. The whole point of his phenomenology was to create a new 'science of consciousness' that explored primal concepts and better ground underlying principles for the physical sciences.

Science is defined by hard and fast rules/laws that are accurate enough to surpass mere blind opinion or singular subjective perspectives.

The Arts do not do this:

- History does not, whereas the science of Archeology does.
- Literature does not do this, whereas the science of Linguistics does.

I have a feeling you are confusing yourself by interchanging Why, How and What without appreciating that they are ALL What questions. This then lead to you holding to How for one line of questioning where it suits you whilst holding to Why for another (even though - to repeat - they are BOTH What questions).

Experiencing is experiencing. Consciousness is consciousness of ... not simply some floating item - Husserlian 'intentionality'.

Maybe you wish to ask 'What would we mean by saying Consciousnessing?' rather than relying on the term "thinking"?

As of yet, I am still unsure what you are saying and starting to think that you do not really have a clear idea of what you mean due to misapplication of terms and heuristic bias.

From your writing above I'm thinking you're not totally averse to my claim science and art differ mainly in terms of two different modalities of discovery: science leans towards objective discovery; art leans towards subjective discovery, and QM establishes where the twain shall meet! — ucarr

Well, that is such an obvious difference that I am baffled why you would wish to point it out? If your point is merely that Art is subjective and Science is objective (broadly speaking) ... so what?

I think I at least offered something a little more nuanced by approaching what they Value rather than how objective they are. As I mentioned, Superstring Theory is only still around because it seems to solve certain problems BUT there is no objective evidence - it is purely theoretical.

Maybe you will find this interesting; I have mentioned before some time ago ...

Art does two things (1) brings temporal experience into a singular moment (2) transforms a singular moment into a continuous temporal experience.

For example, if I listen to a piece of music or watch a movie the experience becomes one unified whole, whereas if I look at a sculpture or a painting I stretch the experience out across time and animate it. Time is the medium of art.

Science does neither. Science is singularly focused on reducing data to a universally applicable formula. Time is tool not a medium for science.

Still worshipping Algos I see :)

When you talk about the difference between the two disciplines, you talk about art being resistant to accurate measurement. So, can you spin out a narrative of difference that illuminates the meaning of science being accurate measurement and art being touchy-feely measurement? — ucarr

That is an oversimplification I feel. Science does require creativity as much as art.

There are not just TWO distinct disciplines. There is a good deal of overlap between various fields of interest within and between Science and Humanities subjects.

If you wish me to focus merely on 'accuracy of measuring' then I guess I can try, but that is not what science is. Nor would I say the humanities is just 'touchy feely' as each leaves an impression on the other (science affects humanities and humanities affects science). For this reason I would not state that the humanities 'resists' accurate measurement at all - no field of study does that. There is a history of science (humanities) as well as items like linguistics (the science of language).

'Meaning' of science in terms of accurate measurements? Mmm ... I guess the humanities is far more concerned with felt experience rather than observed experience. That would probably be the best simplistic distinction - both 'measure' in different ways. I guess it is a matter of Value; the arts are concerned with subjective value that nevertheless approaches pure abstracted ideas of beauty and such (feelings/impressions) whereas the sciences are concerned with objective value that can be formulated into an abstract 'meaning' (equation).

There is a whole sea of grey. I do not for an instance assume there is a 'black or white' to this but that such ideas of a pure black and white differentiations represent an abstraction of experience.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Obviously those two things are quite different in a number of ways. An equation is abstract, where an action is not. The former can be applied in an objective sense whereas the latter is focused more on subjectivity.

I posted because your general conception of what science is seemed misguided/inaccurate.

When talking about the humanities and sciences, they are categories of subjects in academia. If you are attempting to use these categories outside of this then you need to be more concise with what your underlying point is. For me at least! :)

It had its highlights, but I agree that overall it was nowhere near their other films.

I stated this quite clearly already, no?

Every Sperm is Sacred :grin:

The sciences are concerned with “what,” whereas the humanities are concerned with “how.” — ucarr

No. Science is concerned with science. The humanities are concerned with humans.

The give away is in the names?

The sciences are rooted in communication of existence in terms of what things are, how they’re interrelated, what they do and what functions, if any, they have. — ucarr

Huh? That sounds more like mysticism.

Science makes no assumptions. Blind speculation can happen but it is cast aside if no rational means of determining any kind of evidence can be unearthed. That said, there are some theories that fit observations so well that they live a bit longer than usual; Superstring Theory is one example.

Observation is key in all sciences (Empiricism).

The sciences are all about measurement. Through the lens of the sciences, to measure a thing is to contain it and thereby to know it. — ucarr

No. Science uses measurements based on observations. If measurements cannot be made science does not just leave it alone. We can observe changes and then speculate as to why such changes are happening. The evidence of scientific truths comes through determining a means of measuring but it is certainly not all science is.

Empiricism is fundamental to all the sciences.

The humanities are rooted in communication of voices arising from The Hard Problem: What it’s like to navigate and experience the material creation as a sentient being with an enduring individual point of view with personal history attached. — ucarr

Not really. The Hard Problem is a scientific problem.

Through the lens of the humanities, to journey from cradle to grave is to string together a personal narrative (continuity) of emblematic, pivotal, transformative and self-defining moments. — ucarr

Maybe.

In short, The Humanities are about the expression and understanding of the human condition in lived terms most often through a narrative function - although philosophy itself tends to straddle both the science and humanities through the employment of the science of logic (mathematics).

The means of accurate measuring of items like 'good' and 'bad' is obscure (and possibly a delusion?). We still measure value in human life but such measurements are so abstracted and opaque that more often than not we are misled and misguided by our sense of reasoning.

By this I simply mean that we do not possess the scope in spacial or temporal terms to pass any reasonably accurate declaration for a hard and fast 'rule' of human nature. Where we are blind the Humanities dresses us in comfort. Is there truth hidden within this comfort? I believe so.

And the threat being perceived. The protection of loved kin and territory is also a strong animal instinct. But there is a huge difference between willingness to fight for one's convictions and loyalties, and a desire for war. — Vera Mont

I know. I was the one arguing against what Tarkian said in regards to "craving war".

There is something to be said for the possibility of humanity slipping back into feudalistic tendencies with societal collapse. Maybe it will happen again. I hope not though.

But that's a digression from the question of war. If men want to go war, and men have pretty been in charge of things through history, why has there ever been conscription? I'm supposing that the men who run things and want wars are not the same ones who actually have to fight the wars. Most of the latter would prefer to be left alone to work their farms or looms or forges and play with their kids on a sunny day. — Vera Mont

I agree. Being humans though, when we see something 'evil' we want to correct it as we are visceral creatures and physical force is a habit of animal nature for obvious reasons. The willingness to fight comes through the belief in the extent of the 'evil' perceived. Being highly social creatures we are more than just mere brute force though.