I think work is something we ought to do and do with pride (pushing life forward). My brother and dad work really hard for pay. They don't really realize how important for society they truly are, they just see the end product of being tired.

If mechanics, farmers, doctors just said fuck working... society would hurt. They also lose out on their passions. I mean define HARD WORK. All work is hard in one way or another (tedious, strenuous, or mentally exhausting) and is something that needs to be done. I respect workers no doubt.

The worker is being squeezed time out and paid less to do so... I don't like that one bit. They should be able to do their job and feel it has meaning.

I'm in awe at even how Fast food workers do it everyday... it's a 40-50 year thing for some.

Music is great! Imagine living without music... then think about participating in it, then think about creating it. Total human expression! It validates the Artists feelings and others relate.

I think if the poem/music relates to the topic, it emphasizes the feelings and creates imagery that words without cadence can't do, it strengthens an argument. Otherwise we can't base our thoughts on anything said before us.

You could say it appeals to emotions though... I used a quote just today to emphasis a point (could be appeal to quotation/authority)... I think if it misses the mark of relevance and just is emotion for emotion's sake yeah appeal to emotions for sure.

Wikipedia said manipulation, to me that would be Fear, obligation, and guilt. Blackmail aka threats. Wiki says even wishful thinking.

https://climateandcapitalism.com/2012/05/28/india-exports-food-while-millions-starve/

An example of what nations do with surplus.

"You can walk up an injured personnel, try your best to save him/he and to the side road, but by doing so, you may break the law due to your unprofessional emergency action, which potentially cause extra injuries"

isn't that really a moral than legal? it's good the law is there don't get me wrong, but if I know nothing about helping someone I'm causing more harm than good, isn't that immoral? If you don't want to cause extra injuries you are morally obligated not to cause more damage. The virtue of honesty and all that?

That would be like pretending to be a doctor or something...

Say you were formerly a professional, would it be more of a gray area, would it be immoral not to act knowing you can save him? It would still be illegal to help wouldn't it?

IF they are doing that, what is our obligations then? Just take it up tha ass? I suppose been doing it since Marx was around... at least

How...do...we...live? So morals are dead? So fuck the founding father's then? What do we use as guidance then? Satan?

You have a republic... if you can keep it. So what are we really then a corpocracy?

Can't beat em' join em'?

I've gone from depressed to angry honestly. Everyone is like YOLO they say it like they know what they are talking about (as they pop pills and drink everyday).

I think American culture is hypocritical, it says one thing does another. Everyone has their one liner of truth but if you really looked at the choices people make... (I speak mainly of my own generation and what I see.) I point to the fact we are apathetic like the Germans in WW2. Something is going on.

Bertrand Russell to me is saying open your eyes and think about where everything stands. There is a vast world out there that can easily be corrupted by the unexamined life. By only thinking about immediate affairs and shortsightedness. We are prisoner's of our own minds. We need to be free.

How do you teach children ethics? How do you teach people to care?

For the people talking about aid expenditures: I got a call to donate to veterans. I asked what % of a dollar goes to the vet. Answer 17% The rest goes to the org for it to function. Do you think they are counting the dollar or 17%? I rather go down to the VA and hand out a $20 bill than give the business $100 and help only with $17. Not only that they have an agenda most of the time.

Also, Americans blame disabled people for the economy while shelling out for corporate welfare. How is that principled logic... blame the poor bastard as the head honchos get a grab for it.

My hypothesis is government and business are in bed together. And the laws they are making while not all bad protects their clout at the expense of the consumer and tax payer (apathy). Moral relativism protect their philosophy and a rationale for acting that way. It's an excuse and the more people that believe it, the more perception becomes reality. Here we are everything stays the same.

Excuse the rant... just want to understand.

I just went with affirming the consequence. Good on you for knowing specifically when and the other cases. Been awhile for me, my retention is poo.

Don't feel dumb, a lot of people could care less about logic... sad. It's that you ARE doing it that matters.

I remember going through the equations. You just have to get the rules down (truth tables and valid forms) and find exceptions. Everything else you set up the problem for all possibilities of the variables and take it bit by bit and run it through some checks at the end. That's how I passed the class.

Also remember why you are doing it - your meaning. Mine was to try to see BS it helped me streetwise. I wanted more informal logic too but didn't get it. Even with a critical thinking class.

OMG is this something that is legal yet immoral? It's everywhere!

"any serious abuse of power—including both legal and illegal activities" So things can be legal and wrong, so wouldn't it work the other way too?:brow:

Technically some Mexicans were already settled when America made its borders. I wonder what those politics are and how they feel about the issue.

Wall or not what do we do about illegal immigration? Since it is illegal?

Yeah, true he had reasons not opinions, that's amazing he gave his life for Athenia. He would have been a huge hypocrite and everything he taught would be less appealing, too. Thanks for the help!

@Athena It really does suck that "ignorance doesn't hold up in the court of law" for honestly mistaken people, but people who are dicks can say "I didn't know" and really knew all along. Then those assholes walk around. Making a joke of the courts it would be like one free pass on everything you didn't know about. Which is a gripe of mine with education sometimes... basics of this OUGHT to be taught in high school. It is legal not to but i find it a disservice.

If you lie for convenience sake it would seem immoral. There are exceptions like national security. Or usually when it harms you or someone else. Though a lot of people lie to protect themselves, still if they are in the wrong their reputation gets the best of them. But other than that, honesty or telling someone "I don't have to answer that." You have a moral right to assert yourself. If they disagree or disapprove, but you are morally sound and have valid reasons, they will have to do some critical thinking.

I think it is a bad idea to lie for convenience sake no matter how mundane. Just not good practice. It might not be an end all but it's a bad habit that can get you in trouble fast.

Would you want the lie in return? Universal test (If everyone did it) and Public Test (If people were observing it on TV) from Kant help me.

Other than that, I don't know if it is immoral. I'm usually pretty straight forward with people myself, and if it is a blood boiling topic, I stay away. I tend to get along easy with people in RL, and really haven't needed to lie about things.

Agape with Freedom... sounds good to me

Only "God" (Up to your beliefs) and the couple can truly make it everlasting.

Just as addicts have to find it within themselves (though help wouldn't be bad to find).

I think individual responsibility is underrated.

My MMPI would probably light on fire from all the craziness.

@Valentinus

I was born out of wedlock... I'm the reason my parents married. Didn't change how my dad felt about me. I'd rather be called a bastard than live a false life.

Well when a community has to bare the weight they can be more involved with member's lives. It distants responsibility the community has and puts it on government.

Strong relationships are beautiful period.

Am I delusional?

My moral stance is there are other good reasons to drive barefoot. I shouldn't be limited to driving with something on my feet, that's unreasonable to me. Have you ever seen electricians work with gloves on... it's actually harder. I don't see how making it illegal solves anything. If there was a valid moral reason why... I'd follow.

I believe we have the freedom of speech, but just go on youtube and see all the hate that's legally there. I find it immoral, but it is legal. Hate speech is legal but immoral... doesn't mean that it is legal we should use it. All I am saying. And because something is not legal we shouldn't do something. It must be critically examined.

Socrates is a lot like Jesus they both died for standing up for what they believed in. Martin Luther King Jr. was similar. These people changed society and the laws. Not to keep them in place.

Crito shows me to stand up for what I believe in even if it means death. I'm willing to bet Socrates would still "Corrupt the youth". He still held his opinions.

Am I understanding it correctly?

-Unneeded Space-

Socrates explains how it is a "general principle". Generally speaking yes, but like I said if it is unjust which is against generally what happens? I mean no one is saying they are constantly and blatantly creating unjust laws. Some laws are legit (most maybe?).

FYI, usually addictive personalities are the ones that get most addicted. and yes there are WAY more addictive drugs than Marijuana. (Most of the excuses you hear from stoners is they don't want to.) A lot of other drugs it's a different story. Even ones doctors prescribe can be. Pain medications have been a problem with the Veteran Affairs for awhile now. Everyone is different.

Environment plays a huge role on dependence. Learned helplessness is another thing too.

Can you work with Prohibition... let's not get ahead of ourselves and go down that bloody and scary part of history. I'm imagining more Renaissance a form of enlightenment not bloodshed.

@Athena "With freedoms, there must be great responsibilities" "We want freedom and not responsibility"

I guess it's a generational thing, but I'm very responsible and really care about doing right by society. I have joined the military, been to college, help out a methed out mother of 4, and have helped other homeless people and drug addicts. I am giving.

I knew what sexual abuse was at age 4. Where was the responsible generation before me on this one?

But policies and social pressures:

College was crammed down our throats and now 30% of people have a bachelors or higher and it's the new high school diploma WITH debt. Middle skill jobs are the most to go.

Corporations are squeezing more time out of us for less pay. Employers want pre-packaged employees.

Education is hit hard by moral relativism. I'm not alone on this. they aren't teaching us Civics anymore. It's changed.

Politics need I say more? Lobbying. Money is speech. Occupy Wall street (had some good premises) The border. Politicians do dumb things.

The school shootings too and the government WANTS to BAN guns. Obama shed a tear for it.

And you want me to NOT smoke pot?

What book/source says Socrates said it was immoral to break the law no matter what? I want to read it for myself. Breaking a law for breaking a law's sake is immoral. If you have a good rationale or other morals and you disagree with a law wouldn't it be wise to break it?

American Revolution happened on that basis.

It is only a problem when it affects your family and responsibilities, it is addiction, but if everything that's addicting is immoral what are you to do? But, that is more of a problem with neglect than purely drugs. To my understanding.

Tim Wood is pulling out the big guns lol

It's an individuals choice how many times - 0,1,100.

I'd like to see where Socrates said you follow the law no matter how unreasonable...

It isn't you too, as I said probably... I didn't say ya did, maybe if I claimed it as fact. It's likely that you have and you are unaware of it - just a fact of reality.

What's the fallacy?

It's more stating a fact and presumption than a disagree or agree. It kinda goes back to the question too. Socrates was "Corrupting the youth" and paid for his life. His teachings were moral but illegal.

In Socrates's defense he probably assumed good thinking men took the reins, but even he drank the hemlock.

You probably break laws you aren't aware of. So don't take a moral high ground.

I mean sure, a lot of laws are good... not trying to break the whole system... but saying ALL laws were put into place for the interest of the American people... just doesn't seem to fit my world view. Norms change... much like pot is illegal due to not having a free market, and Du Pont wanted to make more money over hemp. Just one example I know, but I am sure there are others.

Oh money talks... that's another

There are laws that protect corporations at the expense of the American people for one. I'd go even patent laws as patents are now currency. You can buy your way into monopoly. That's legal...

Your defense... to me you are saying, if it is a law it must be good enough on its own. So, if it were legal to steal you'd do it.

It means to me there should be moral and a rationale behind a law and not for a particular interest. The pen is mightier than the sword. Legally boxing yourself out of freedom is important isn't it? Not a legal positivist. The laws the law isn't a good enough explanation.

What if you had a moral obligation to break the law? To stand up to tyranny? Like we had a "Hunger Games" world? Is Catniss wrong for wanting her people freed? Slavery was legal, are blacks suppose to just take it? I'm sure there are cases like this throughout life big or small.

A police officer told me once that he technically could bust me for anything, there is a lot of legality just crossing the street.

Being armed is not the cause of being polite. Appeal to authority isn't logical, but I am not going to start an argument when a gun is to my head. Though, liberty or death is a very real sentiment.

Well, grades are an honest assessment, unless favoritism then that's immoral. It's more about being able to follow directions and present something of substance. We get graded all the time in reality. Should we all make 100% free throws in basketball? It's okay that some people are better at something than others.

Salary is about supply and demand. If not many people are doctors and we need doctors, then they can command a higher salary. All they have to do is say find someone else if they are being low-balled. Salary is also negotiation and a mutual trade.

Are you sure it is immoral to break the law? What if there was a law that was immoral? Most laws have legitimacy but not ALL laws. Some laws favor certain people over the greater good. Look at youtube with some people espousing hate... it's legal but is it really moral?"

For the most part, to me as an American, if he can get by eating rice and meditating... he has found a good life and in our pursuit of happiness he is doing his job.

Now, if he is causing harm (which he isn't) then he needs to experience a wake up call and experience some nasty consequences. Learning can be uncomfortable so that's just going to happen. That adversity is good.

For those pushing him to "get with the program" are immoral because they feel they know him better than he does. Adversity isn't always positive. If I were him, I'd hopefully stand up against oppression.

EDIT: You are saying it is better to not be born and face no hardships, while it's dumb to be made into this world and face unnecessary hardships? Well, it depends on a lot of circumstances. A mother has to weigh the chances of survival, it would be irresponsible to just pump out babies without any conscious. At the same time, I'll go with DMX on this he says, "To live is to suffer, but to survive? That defines the meaning in the suffering."