When was it ever not 'modern' to examine, critique & thereby develop how "our thinking is constructed". At best, p0m0 has always seemed to me nothing but a redundant, clown-show – a dada-like bit of rhetorical kitsch parodying a witches' brew of hellenic skepticism, apologetic fideism, berkleyan idealism, nietzschean perspectivism, russian nihilism, jamesian pluralism, etc – which, occasionally amusing in a tedious sorta way, is philosophically DOA. — 180 Proof

:smile:
I do wish I had your way with words and a smidgeon of your knowledge of philosophical isms.

There's a prevailing view that things were better in the past. A Golden Age. — Tom Storm

Isn't that true of any generation ?
You call that music ? You call that dancing ?
In my day...

People seem to be going for pre-modernism. — Tom Storm

You what ? What people, where...?

With many positions on modernity and the individual, can one say they are indifferent? Some philosophers say we are still living in modernity, for some we are in post-modernity, some say we were never modern. — Warren

Dear God.
I have never 'got' this 'post-modern' concept.
Just another label to hang on a picture or something...if you turn it round do you go back to the future ?
*sighs*

Always makes me think of 'Thoroughly Modern Millie' the musical, 1967.

In 1922 New York City, flapper Millie Dillmount is determined to find work as a stenographer to a wealthy businessman and then marry him – a "thoroughly modern" goal.

So, modern values or goals way back then.
Hmmm, I was going to say have changed - but then again...

Some things never change. Or if they do, they return full circle...with knobs on.
It depends on perspective. Doesn't it always.

Zoom Fatigue
https://marketoonist.com/2020/06/zoom.html
Tom Fishburne

I don't do zoom but I love the song :cool:

to say so much with so little — Pop

You are right. That takes genius :cool:

Oh. Wow !!
Just love these :sparkle:

As a matter of curiosity, addressed to anyone.

About deep or light songs. And how they might reflect who you are...or who has inspired you...

Have you thought about songs or lyrics you would have at your funeral ?
I have.
But have come to no conclusion. Any ideas ?

[Apart from no funeral and disposing of body in a black bag...or donating it to science]

I love 'Zoom' by Fat Larry's Band

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUPvF-i0EE8

[ @Olivier5 - hope this is OK and not too much off topic ? ]

After reading your comments, I wanted to find out more about Kafka. He is more intriguing than I first thought.
Understanding Kafka.

Have you read his 'Letter to His Father' ? What do you think of it ?
https://www.brainpickings.org/2015/03/05/franz-kafka-letter-father/

"What does it feel like...when you're dancing ?"

You can see their disappointment when he struggles and says "Dunno..'

So glad he found the words to relay that sense of 'What does it feel like...'

"I sort of disappear...I have this fire in my body...like a bird...like electricity.
Yeah, like electricity..."

Phenomenal.

He had crossed out "Beckton" and written in "Clark." — T Clark

:smile:
So you were a pain in the neck there too !!

I understand greatness here to be more associated with an internal sense of mastery and control, not an external appearance of autonomy and influence such as fame and fortune - — Possibility

I understand it this way too. As per Marcus Aurelius...mentioned above.
There's a comparison here:
https://medium.com/interfaith-now/universal-ideas-in-stoicism-taoism-pantheism-19609c55b38d

"two" opposing forces, with the interaction being a process of mutual chaotic cancellation and thus arriving at an ordered equilibrium — TheMadFool

Why would it be 'a process of mutual chaotic cancellation' ?
I agree that a sense of balance might be the outcome of e.g. drawing away from the 'black' but the 'white' doesn't necessarily cancel the black out, or v.v.
It might simply be a merging. Shades of grey, if that doesn't sound too foggy...

Have you ever experienced a moment when you have felt 'at one' with the world. You felt at peace.
I have and wanted to capture that essence in a bottle so I could take it out and sniff later.
To regain a sense of balance. Most of the time, I swing about...if you know what I mean...

I think the same thing occurs when, as Mitchell writes, dancers or sportsmen enter the zone. There is no conscious thought, there is effortless movement. Non-action.
However, to reach that point takes action. Practice. With a view to being the best you can be.

I do see this as being similar to Stoicism, as I think @Wayfarer pointed out.
It's about leading, or trying to lead, a life of harmony. Where we control our emotions to an extent but don't deny them.

Marcus Aurelius comes to mind. He said something like you have power over your mind not external events. Also, your wellbeing is tied up with the quality of your thoughts.

So, there is action and non-action. Knowing when you can, or should act, and knowing when best to let it go... The Serenity Prayer outlines this.

I haven't yet contributed to any interpretation of the verses because I just don't know...
Others do. Or think they do. Or simply want to share their thoughts.
I love this.
Looking forward to reading and understanding more.

Finally, someone agrees with me about that. — T Clark

:lol:

I think you'll find, if you ever have a question about an interpretation, mine is probably the correct one. — T Clark

Ah, mais naturellement !! :roll:

Either for that reason or some other, the cage quote just felt threatening. I see a shifty-eyed cage going out hunting so it can trap the bird under it's control. — T Clark

Yes, I noticed the 2 quotes.
I thought there might be another reason, other than a feeling - as you say.
Does the cage have wings attached to capture birds in flight or settle in trees...
Seriously, I understand the sinister aspect.
I read this recent article about the practice of capturing finches:

The birds had been captured in nearby forests using glue strips or nets. Some were visibly frightened by life in captivity. A few had begun the halting process of habituation, waiting on their perches instead of bashing against the bars. And the “baddest” birds—which in Guyanese patois means the best birds—were just about ready to burst into song.

https://www.guernicamag.com/bad-birds-in-quarantine/?mc_cid=dd21d20830&mc_eid=c4d8566ef3

Horrible :fear:

What the heck is wu wei really? Last I checked it means something along the lines of "doing without doing" but nec caput nec pedes as far as I'm concerned. — TheMadFool

Where did you check ?
Have you read the wiki article on it. All will become clear. Hah !
At least it isn't in Latin :scream:

This is from 1973, one of his best. I never forgot it. — T Clark

Funny the cartoons that stick in the mind.
I remember one I cut out of a newspaper...way back in ancient times.

Two umbrellas in the street: one closed, the other open against the elements.
'That's life. One minute you're up, the next you're down'

Or blown inside-out away by a gust of wind.
The winds of change.

activists, politicians and celebrities, all well versed in the art of being seen to be acting, assume credit for the progress achieved by wu wei. I think a significant aspect of ascribing to the practise of wu wei is to be okay with that.
— Possibility

Do you mean that things change and you can assume credit for that change by being present (assuming the change is in the service the cause)? Riding the energies of Que Sera, Sera. I've gone from Kenny Rogers to Doris Day... sorry. — Tom Storm

This thread is such a joy to read, even though I find it difficult to follow some of the terms and interpretations. There is a wonderful, knowledgeable and questioning interaction.
And never, ever apologise for Doris Day...I think she is wei wei underestimated :smile:

I have to say - 'A cage went in search of a bird' - initially had be thinking it was the start of a Jewish joke. — Tom Storm

Asking myself why I skipped over this - probably because it made me think of the Holocaust and the prison camps.
First, why would Jews joke about this?

Until a few minutes ago, I didn't know about 'Holocaust humour' and its place in America.
An interesting read:
https://theconversation.com/why-holocaust-jokes-can-only-be-told-by-a-jewish-comedian-87027

Next, why did I shy away from the dark, or sinister, side. Perhaps a coping mechanism, I know about being depressed and try not to dwell on things which might affect my mood in a negative way.
I seem to have coached my brain/mind to assess and then lift up before any downward spiral occurs.

Now, I remember I did read Kafka's 'The Trial' a long time ago.
I couldn't remember the details, but here's the conclusion. From an article:
Tim, "Kafka: The Trial (Analysis), May 12, 2012, " in Philosophy & Philosophers, May 12, 2012, https://www.the-philosophy.com/kafka-trial-analysis.

Joseph K. is an anti-hero, he lives in inauthenticity, it is actually guilty. Accused, wrongly perhaps, he eventually abdicated, he is convinced he is guilty. While he could escape, flee his trial, K., like modern man prefers to be killed, he abandoned all desire to live. He was shot down “like a dog” because he lets himself be dominated by the society, which has fixed, objectified, riveted him to his guilt.

So, now - it takes me while - I see the sinister side of the saying.

That's pretty close to my reading, although, as I said, it feels a bit more sinister than that to me. — T Clark

Is that what you were getting at ?

Again, following the trail of prisoner camps - it harks back to something I mentioned earlier re categories.

We feel safe clinging to the trappings of categories...we label ourselves for ease of description but... to confine ourselves to a single position...that can't be good for us ? — Amity

I had meant that it takes a bit of courage or skill to think outside the box, or your comfort zone.
I mentioned 'safety'. However, labelling yourself as being a [fill in the gap] can give a false sense of security. It can bring dangers. One tribe against the other. How do we deal with that when so many seem intent to stir divisions in our society...
Is this human nature...cages going in search of birds...?

German prison guards and officers could identify groups and pit them against each other.
Political prisoners, such as Communists, Socialists, and trade unionists wore red triangles. Common criminals wore green. Roma View This Term in the Glossary (Gypsies) and others the Germans considered "asocial" or "shiftless" wore black triangles. Jehovah's Witnesses wore purple and homosexuals pink. Letters indicated nationality: for example, P stood for Polish, SU for Soviet Union, F for French. — Holocaust Encyclopedia

Excellent instructions. It worked, thanks :smile:

Downloaded and sent to my Kindle. Isn't technology wonderful. — T Clark

Yes it is. If you can use it :smile:
How do you send a download to your kindle ?

On Mother's Day :flower:

Do daughters turn into their mothers ?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/ng-interactive/2021/mar/14/simone-lia-like-mother-like-daughter-cartoon

You, Amity, and Jack Cummins should get together and start a thread. I'll participate enthusiastically. — T Clark

For me, that is not an option.
I am barely passed the Introduction.
I am more likely to follow a thread started by someone with experience/knowledge who can guide it through rocky waters.
Thanks anyway.

I should also mention Burton Watson's well-known translation of the Chuang Tzu which was also one of the readings. It is a companion piece to the Tao Te Ching. — Wayfarer

Thanks, I will take a look at this too. Downloadable here:

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html

A virus went in search of a human...

It also sounds like a euphemism for what happens whenever I go to the library... — Tom Storm

:smile:
You can go to a library ?

Hope to enjoy this soon. Thanks :smile:

Sorry, I can't access it.

When a 'thinker' adopts an opinion he becomes caged. From that cage he studies the world and while he can still see his view is changed. He is now constant instead of free and interprets everything with himself as the axis mundi. — New2K2

Yes. Having thought further, this seems right to me. But only as part of a bigger cage where not only the self but others are involved in the trapping for their own purposes...perhaps ?

A nest of cages...

My reading of a cage went in search of a bird is - a cage is pointless without a bird in it. So it describes all the empty people 'cages' in search of their truth 'birds'. When they find it they will trap it and render it a prisoner in their mind - where the meaning no longer soars.
— Tom Storm

That's pretty close to my reading, although, as I said, it feels a bit more sinister than that to me. — T Clark

For me, this thread has really brought home to me how our various interpretations reflect our own selves and what is important to us. Perhaps, I have been too cage-y with mine, not seeing any sinister aspects. So, on further reflection:

I began to think in terms of freedom and those associated with knowledge and understanding: comprehend, apprehend, grasp.

There is more than one bird or cage. What kind of bird, what size of cage. Whose cage ? Some birds are too big and can't be caged. Why would a cage want to capture a bird ?

A bird can be seen as knowledge or understanding to be grasped.
So, how might this be 'sinister' ?
Perhaps in alighting and settling on a Dangerous Idea; one which might upset the status quo.
My cage, or mind, might search for this as a way to gain freedom. To find and be myself.
However, other bigger cages ( perhaps society ) might seek to trap me and limit free thinking.
To live within current cultural mores.

A caged bird can't fly. What else cannot fly if restricted be e.g. lack of books or experience.
The spirit. The imagination. Thought ?

Our thoughts and imagination can fly or soar even when others might wish to stop free thinking.
But sometimes, we ourselves are scared to think out of the box or the cage of custom or upbringing for fear of the consequences. We feel safe clinging to the trappings of categories...we label ourselves for ease of description but... to confine ourselves to a single position...that can't be good for us ?

So, @T Clark I guess that's about as sinister as I can reach right now.
Could you expand on how you see it as such ?

one of the books I studied was a translation of a Taoist doctor's journal from around 400 or 500 AD (I think). It was a fascinating book, full of village tales, strange rostrums, arguments about cattle, day-to-day anecdotes about life in those ancient times. It was one of the books which gave me a feel for how intertwined Taoism was with Chinese culture. I should also mention Burton Watson's well-known translation of the Chuang Tzu which was also one of the readings. It is a companion piece to the Tao Te Ching. — Wayfarer

Thanks for this. I think it is in reading such stories that we can see the importance of the Tao to everyday life in China. And possibly to any of us commenting on the Tao Te Ching today.

Like @T Clark your post made me want to read this journal. Or about how Chinese medicine is intertwined with the Tao. I know this is taking the thread away from the original intention.
However, I thought this small excerpt might be useful and wouldn't harm...

From: read://http_fiveimmortals.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffiveimmortals.com%2Fwudang-tao%2Ftaoist-medicine%2F
[Sorry, link doesn't seem to work]

In ancient times nine out of ten Daoists were healers. Only the people who thoroughly grasped the laws of heaven and earth and understood the movement and transformation of the mysterious principles of yin yang, could become healers...The numerous contents of the tradition of Chinese medicine all originate from the study of the Dao. In China’s history there has been a multitude of medicine sages, for the most part they all excelled in the study of the Dao...

Provided one has mastered the secret formulae, the following saying is not just simply empty talk:

“In the mysterious gate studying medicine is like catching chickens inside a cage”

Wow, that last saying made me smile. Right now in TPF there's a discussion about Kafka's aphorism:
' A cage went in search of a bird'. I read somewhere that he extracted his aphorisms from the journals that he kept. A big thumbs up to all those wise birds who captured their meditations in golden pages.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10031/a-cage-went-in-search-of-a-bird-

from the introduction to the book which states that Kafka was happiest when he was sick and certain of death. Such a temperament/outlook might indicate that Kafka considered the human body a cage and his mind/soul a bird — New2K2

I haven't read Kafka or The Zurau Aphorisms.
Thanks for the introduction. Great question.

I read that Kafka wrote these quick mental illuminations while convalescing. So, in a way his physical body was holed up, or caged, but also free from his usual work or obligations.
http://zurauaphorisms.blogspot.com/2011/12/number-sixteen.html

If so limited, then our minds need occupation; to search and then attempt to capture or write down whatever thoughts or ideas arise. Just as a bird is held for the purposes of appreciation, so a golden aphorism is treasured.

The words, alive at the time, if kept for posterity aren't allowed to change, even if our minds do. There for all time for others to gape at and dissect...
When all they are is an expression of a moment's creativity.

If ideas become dead dogma, this might be likened to the rituals of tribes or a set of religious beliefs from which individuals can't escape. Stuffed birds. No flying allowed.

Thanks. So interesting to compare cultures at same or different times.
Whose creativity can transform...

That wasn't what I asked. I was asking a hypothetical question. If you aren't going to pay attention to what I actually said and respond to what I actually said, then don't bother responding at all. These racist tactics are tiresome. If women or blacks were the ones in power, would we have White History month? — Harry Hindu

Agree that you were asking a hypothetical question.
My response was neither tactical or racist, any careful reader would see that.
And this response will be short and the last on this subject.

There are all kinds of 'special' days and months held globally.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_month-long_observances

They are used by various governments, groups and organizations to raise awareness of an issue, commemorate a group or event, or celebrate.

To answer your hypothetical:

I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a 'White History Month' no matter what kind of human or E.T. is in charge. Although a Pastafarian would probably just call it 'Holiday' and celebrate any old how... :party:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Related to William's view that the British royals are 'very much not a racist family' following accusations of racism in Meghan and Harry's interview.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/mar/11/steve-bell-on-prince-william-leading-the-defence-of-the-royal-family-cartoon

I see the TTC as a bunch of snap shots of the Tao. Lao Tzu is trying to show it to us without letting the words get in the way. We're supposed to get our view of the Tao in our peripheral vision. — T Clark

Ah, now that makes sense to me. It rings with my idea of 'gaps between the snaps' when it comes to discovering family history.
The quality behind or surrounding the data of everyday life.
Just as photos or biographical facts are good starting points, they are only moments in time. We are more than that...

Hedgehog in the Fog. From Russia with love and subtitles.

https://www.skwigly.co.uk/100-greatest-animated-shorts-hedgehog-in-the-fog-yuri-norstein/

' Hedgehog in the Fog is the precursor to Tale of Tales and shares many of the same qualities. It has the same bittersweet poetic style and fragmented storytelling containing lots of tiny seemingly unconnected events that the viewer tries to somehow link together to create a meaning, the same way we experience each day, and remember our life.'

In TTSS, it's quite the moment when the British spies sing the Russian National anthem in Russian. A stirring sound, I always wondered about the lyrics and translation. And how many moles there were...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AOAtz8xWM0w

Re TTSS. From
https://johnnyalucard.com/2017/04/22/film-review-tinker-tailor-soldier-spy-2011/

It has especially clever use of well-chosen music – at the Circus Christmas party, everyone sings along to ‘The Second Best Secret Agent in the Whole Wide World’ (the theme song to Lindsay Shonteff’s License to Kill!) and the Soviet national anthem sung in Russian, while Cumberbatch’s Guillam invades the Circus to steal a crucial record book to the tune of George Formby’s ‘Mr Wu’s a Window Cleaner Now’ (which makes even a surveillance eavesdropper’s foot tap), while the entire climax of sniper retribution is similarly played out as a music video clip (‘Beyond the Sea’).  Maybe, since this is now yesterday’s espionage, there’s a layer of nostalgia to go with the disillusion, and Oldman’s sad-eyed Smiley, swimming in a freezing lake and holding back while others sweat or rave, is a remote ringmaster rather than a tragic everyman.'

There is an era before him and another after him. — Olivier5

Is it that ( from wiki ) - 'his light, irreverent lyrics express a joie de vivre typical in French popular music produced during the late 1930s...they represented escapism at a time dominated by political unrest and economic uncertainty'.

It made me think of George Formby whose song 1. 'When I'm Cleaning Windows'...hmm...or was it 2. 'Mr Wu's a window cleaner now' also features in 'Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy'.

1. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sfmAeijj5cM
Note the impro at the end :smile:

2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku_DWfisFcg

Gotta love a Boum!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p0KWyWwVp0E

We need the lighter songs too...

Another thing your commentary to "a good man is a bad man's teacher" reminded me of was the legal positivist idea of a Grundnorm. That last one might seem really strange considering what it attempted and was concerned about but the implication is the Grundnorm stays out of reach without a possibility to really name it. — Benkei

I haven't read all the thread as yet. I don't know if it also says that a bad man can be a good man's teacher.
Also don't know much about legal positivism or Grundnorm, strangely enough.

However, a quick wiki peek:

'...H. L. A. Hart, refers to the theory as a `needless duplication' of the `living reality' of the courts and officials actually identifying the law in accordance with the constitution's rules. It is mystifying to posit a rule beyond these rules, which adds, superfluously in Hart's view, that the constitution is to be obeyed'.

Here, 'the living reality' is the phrase that jumps out at me.
Given that the Grundnorm or basic norm is a concept which forms an underlying basis for a legal system, how real is it. Is it not just an other theory which can be interpreted in all kinds of ways.

You seem to interpret it as 'staying out of reach without a possibility to really name it'.
Clearly, I don't understand this and a quick skim through wiki is insufficient.
Probably my downfall...not reading carefully...

Grateful for further clarification.

Here’s a link to a great website that has a whole bunch of translations, including Mitchell’s

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html — T Clark

I agree that is a great website. I found it earlier and mentioned it to @Jack Cummins.
We are both reading the Chuang Tzu or Zhuangzi but at a different pace. As you say, many translations available and sometimes difficult to choose. I chose the one by Martin Palmer.

Re the Tao Te Ching, I bought the book a long time ago. Like you, I settled on the Stephen Mitchell translation which I pick up now.

A reminder to myself from his Foreword:

'...Lao Tzu deeply cared about society. If society means the welfare of one's fellow human beings: his book is...a treatise on the art of government, whether of a country or of a child...
...his insistence on wei wu wei, literally ' doing, not- doing' has been seen as passivity. Nothing could be further from the truth.'

Mitchell gives the example of non-action in the way an athlete or dancer can enter a state of effortless movement 'without any interference of the conscious will'.

' Lao Tzu's emphasis on softness...the opposite of rigidity...synonymous with suppleness, adaptability, endurance...[his] central figure is a man or woman whose life is in perfect harmony with the way things are. This is not an idea; it is a reality...'

'...the teaching of the Tao Te Ching is moral in the deepest sense'.

I like how Mitchell describes the lack of concept of sin.
It isn't seen as 'a force to resist but as an opaqueness' - as in the case of a dirty window, the light can't shine through.
'Freedom from moral categories' allows for compassion for the wicked and selfish.

I used to agree with the idea that nobody was 'evil' as such. It was only their actions or behaviour that were. I still don't hold with the use of the word 'evil' as applied ( in politics) to those who oppose you or are seen as 'unpatriotic'.

Now, I am not so sure. I have caught myself irate at the the likes of Trump.
Perhaps it's time to reflect.
Perhaps this is a well timed discussion...
So much anger seems to be flowing in all directions right now.