the language of 'personal responsibility', which is the go-to strategy when allowing the poor to suffer and die despite structural inequality, is inadequate here. The new, developing language is instead that of 'necessary sacrifice', which is nowhere near as empowering and makes obvious just how much the rich and their unthinking shills are all too happy to trade people for money and its promise. — StreetlightX

The language is of wartime; 'frontline' 'volunteers', factories being 'turned over' to 'new essential uses' 'brave sacrifice'... and specifically, the language of WW1.

We're gonna have another wave of boomers? :groan: — Evil

Well we can't do the DIY because the hardware stores are shut, and we can't afford the heating 'coz we got no work, so what do you think we're all going to do all day?

Jesus is said to have claimed that one ought not treat others in a manner that they would not treat themselves. — Shawn

No he didn't. He said to love others as much as yourself.

It's fairly straightforward, and doesn't tax the mind too much. If you can be bothered to eat, be bothered to feed the folks around you when they are hungry.

Well let's not get over-excited. But a period of enforced quiet contemplation may have a temporary sobering effect on the populous. Eyes may be opened as to ...
who does the important work in society;
how interdependent we are;
why bullshitters with fans tend to mess things up;
and the next generation will be known as the virus boomers.

It all might just change peoples' priorities for a while.

Estimates are updated every day, often more than once per day. The source for this estimate reports: “As of 9am on 17 March 2020, 50,442 people have been tested in the UK, of which 48,492 were confirmed negative and 1,950 were confirmed as positive.”

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing-source-data

The UK has been doing a deal of testing, and it looks therefore as though there are not huge numbers of undetected cases. So the numbers here are probably fairly reliable:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

However, it is early days. The 1% serious or critical figure looks fairly reassuring until you look at the death to recovery ratio. 2 deaths for every recovery. One hopes the latter ratio will improve as mild cases are declared recovered, but the 1% is likely to increase as some of the new cases deteriorate.

“As many as 80% of the population are expected to be infected with Covid-19 in the next 12 months, and up to 15% (7.9 million people) may require hospitalization” a secret Public Health England (PHE) briefing for senior NHS officials, seen by the Guardian, reveals

If the 1% increases to 15%, though, then I fear there will be almost no treatment for most of that 7.9 million and very many will die.

I have not seen any data that would have ever led me to the response I see now — Hanover

Have you been looking at all?

The US doesn't have any decent data, but look at the UK data and think on. (Hint. 15% of 80% of the US population is about 39 million)

I've just watched the BBC documentary on Dominic Cummings. — Punshhh

Makes a change from reading about the pestilential virus threatening civilised life. He's a completely different shape and size. :wink:

I've heard people say "no news is good news" which I construe stems from recognition of the fact that newsreporting is heavily skewed in favor of bad events or people with the formula being, the worst gets the most coverage. — TheMadFool

I think it stems from happiness. For those of us that are so fortunate as to be in good health, in reasonable security, and have enough of essentials and so on, news. as in something new, is unlikely to be an improvement.

If on the other hand war pestilence and starvation are your everyday, then something new might be welcome.

Why Mars? Nah, — StreetlightX

It's a really great place to trade, because everything's in short supply. Honest. It's where all the smart money is going.

destroy capitalism, and we're all good. — StreetlightX

I'm doing my bit to undermine confidence - Capitalism is a confidence trick, right?

Here's my neighbour's position. He has a Bed & Breakfast. No one is staying so he is effectively unemployed and as the song goes, the mortgage is still working. So he cannot pay, and needs to cash in his savings - a few shares which have roughly halved in value. That's 6 months from thriving business to bankrupt.

It's a tourist town, so basically 75% or more of the town is unemployed. About the same percentage of businesses are going to be broke quite quickly. Trade is seasonal, so there is no prospect of any upturn for a year.

If that wasn't enough, quite a lot are going to get ill and because it is a retirement town as well, quite a lot are old and vulnerable.

So when the olds die, and the businesses go broke, property prices will crash, and mortgage companies will be in difficulty. Government has already promised payouts of £330 billion which it hasn't got and will not get because no one will be working and paying taxes.

Traders will take advantage if they can, but when the town goes tits up the best advantage is to be able to leave town. Mars anyone?

In Guangdong, officials responsible for the coronavirus response announced Feb. 25 that 14% of declared recoveries in the province had later retested positive.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-13/china-japan-korea-coronavirus-reinfection-test-positive?fbclid=IwAR3fylxOVWwo6aUEJsW2L0qygbONET1kufnGyF2AIhWeLUcUfI1eOywSNec

Herd immunity might not be a thing ...

A steroid would diminish immune function. But ibuprofen? That's wacky. — frank

It's not completely wacky. Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory, and inflammation is an immune response.

Then it becomes a question that anyone who has ever been happy can answer for themselves.

When I am happy, I am not wanting to be happy. It's kind of obvious isn't it? when I am X I am not wanting X. I want an ice cream only while I don't have an ice cream. Unless you are Jeff Bezos, and no matter how much you have, you want more.

Can you tell truly happy from falsely happy?

Europeans in a panic buy toilet roll.
In the US, meanwhile...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/us-sales-guns-ammunition-soar-amid-coronavirus-panic-buying?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3DYBmXIcaEcW7YaQqv7UMMASpsxefRClTzjkoTM5wVrm_SMtvILulbklY#Echobox=1584383865

but is it enough? — jorndoe

You are Jeff Bezos, and I claim my £5.

It's not that we're ignoring you, it's that your analysis is crystal clear and unanswerable.

But, this is merely literature. Don't know if anyone has a lived experience. — Zeus

There is only literature on this site, never lived experience. But all of us have a lived experience even we disregard it. Here is the literature of our conversation, but also, we are actually discussing together, and it is at least possible that there is a silent space in which you or I or anyone might read this. I'm looking for it, so I must be quiet...

So, what do I do? — Zeus

Krishnamurti, he da man. Do you mean 'what do I do?', or 'what does thought do?'?
Because thought will always think about it and try to answer the question it has itself created. Perhaps we can say that the examination of life is not a matter of thinking about it, even though the question that gives rise to it arises in thought?

If you conclude that one cannot, you would surely want to admit that this came from the examination of life. Therefore, one can examine one's life, but perhaps not 'truly'.

But whenever one finds words such as 'truly', 'absolute' and the like, one can expect a question of the general form "If I set an impossible goal, can it ever be reached?' Which is - on examination, a concocted reason for not making an effort.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/japanese-woman-is-first-to-catch-covid-19-twice-mcr9cnv82

Which if it becomes widespread, make a nonsense of any herd immunity, and makes a vaccine more problematic. Don't panic. Yet.

https://skwawkbox.org/2020/03/14/75-80-of-covid-19-transmission-in-family-clusters-video-everyone-needs-to-see-and-that-includes-boris-johnson/?fbclid=IwAR02b0ac9erX58phZmPeHaBklWZtiKpdlJxzi_JocyZvEZAxw7rnmYx_fFs

Interesting report about how the Chinese semi controlled their virus. (Not by keeping everyone at home.)

Could you elaborate with an example of what you mean? — Tkpa007

Another example.

Dichotomy: smart v dumb.

Statement: 'Either Trump is smart or he is dumb.'

There are various ways the statement can turn out to be be false
1. Trump might be on the cusp, a borderline case between smart and dumb.
2. Trump might be smart about some things,and dumb about others.
3. Trump might be the noise an elephant makes, to which neither smartness nor dumbness can apply.

None of these make the dichotomy, smart v dumb, false or meaningless.

Another example.

The play, 'Macbeth' is neither edible nor poisonous. Nevertheless, the dichotomy between poisonous and edible is an important one.

Either a dichotomy is false, or it is true.

Is a false dichotomy. Dichotomies are useful or useless, applicable or inapplicable to particular cases.

But strictly speaking, a dichotomy is a distinction, and the statement above is false because the perfectly reasonable dichotomy of true and false applies to statements, not to distinctions.

Looks like there's going to be a short fall of maybe 50 million ventilators. — Punshhh

One of the problems is that some of the more simple forms of non-invasive ventilation, positive pressure masks for instance, produce aerosols, that spread infection.

I don't know where you're getting your figures, — frank

Based on a recent report by the WHO-China joint mission on COVID-19, 20 percent of the confirmed cases will be severe and require hospitalization for sustained monitoring and supportive treatment. The report indicates that 6 percent of total confirmed cases (or about 30 percent of those hospitalized) will become critical and require specialized intensive care, such as mechanical ventilators.

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/news-stories/news/covid-19-outbreak-crisis-update-march-13?fbclid=IwAR1G4-3OBhuBjIu3WLvVrWBix1Q0uW8l27U8dDyrHEvxnA8YSpU-UwF7QyQ

I start with the assumption that containment fails, and that any measures of isolation will only slow the spread until (hopefully) acquired immunity stops the spread at about 80% infection rate.

So population times 80%, times (optimistically) 5%, Minus the number of people who can be treated with respirators will give you the death rate. Do you have more reliable figures?

I suggested alcoholic mouthwash, I don't know how well it went down. — Punshhh

Went down a treat, thanks. I'll stop teasing Grump as soon as he gets out of my newsfeed. Boris, unfortunately is so blatantly "2or3 million dead pensioners is a price well worth paying", he is beyond even my dark humour.

The unenlightened rough and ready calculator predicts about 10 to 15 million deaths in the US. I am of course a scaremongering idiot that takes no account of Trumps leaderships skills and the imminent rollout of an effective vaccine.

So based on the vague figure of 80% infection to provide herd immunity. and the 20% hospitalisation and 6% needing ventilation, (see my previous) I get, for the UK an overall eventual 48m infections of which something like 9m hospitalised, and nearly 3m needing ventilation. I can see why the government wants to buy more ventilators - there's probably not enough in the country for the cabinet, never mind all their banking pals.

Here are some decent and sensible people who I think can be trusted.

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/news-stories/news/covid-19-outbreak-crisis-update-march-13?fbclid=IwAR1G4-3OBhuBjIu3WLvVrWBix1Q0uW8l27U8dDyrHEvxnA8YSpU-UwF7QyQ

Based on a recent report by the WHO-China joint mission on COVID-19, 20 percent of the confirmed cases will be severe and require hospitalization for sustained monitoring and supportive treatment. The report indicates that 6 percent of total confirmed cases (or about 30 percent of those hospitalized) will become critical and require specialized intensive care, such as mechanical ventilators.

I said "your descendants" you said "the next generation". My children are one thing, my sister's and cousin's children are another.

Contacted by Reuters, a spokeswoman for the German Health Ministry said: "We confirm the report in the Welt am Sonntag."

Welt am Sonntag quoted an unidentified German government source as saying Trump was trying to secure the scientists' work exclusively, and would do anything to get a vaccine for the United States, "but only for the United States."

Such a great guy. :confused: — Michael

Make America great again, by stealing German scientists again.

We can prevent it full stop. — schopenhauer1

No we cannot. You can maintain your personal innocence, that's all. Whatever bad happens won't happen to your descendants, if you don't have any.

No I do not find it to be acceptable, but I am also not faced with mass food shortages and starvation. — SonOfAGun

As I have already said, it has nothing to do with what "I" want to be done, only what is likely to be done and acceptable. — SonOfAGun

No. you are proposing , not predicting. And you are being disingenuous and irresponsible. You have been exposed.

However, you realize the irony that this particular decision affects a WHOLE other person's life (literally, in the strongest most literal way possible). That is almost a Catch-22. — schopenhauer1

It's far more serious than that. There are potentially uncountable generations of future off-spring, one of whom might be the fuckwit politician that sterilises the planet. But there is no escape from the responsibility, because not procreating can deprive the world of that planet sterilising fuckwit, and result in a thousand more generations of suffering humanity. Life is a risky business.

It will not work the way you are suggesting it. There would be revolt. — SonOfAGun

Why would there be revolt? Do you think people would find it an unacceptable curtailment of their freedom? Why is it acceptable for women but not men?

Why do you think SOME people should procreate in the first place? — schopenhauer1

I don't think that. No obligation being projected by me. I don't think my children will procreate, and I'm fine with that. Perhaps they would be persuaded by your arguments, or perhaps they have their own different reasons. I'd rather it was their own decision though than that of some fuckwitted philosopher or politician.

The eggs can be reintroduced for maturation. — SonOfAGun

I'd like to see some report of that. Google tells me that immature eggs have been matured outside the body experimentally, but I don't see anything about immature eggs being reintroduced.

But why do you focus on female fertility when male fertility is so much easier to control?

you think those are caused by our rulers or governments? — ssu

No, I don't, particularly. What I do think is we lead more regulated lives and less physically active lives, and these produce more stress. Governments play a part, but mainly by their incompetence and uncaring; it's not by design, but by failure to mitigate. But Consumerism does deliberately multiply stress because discontent drives sales. Nobody will take you seriously if you don't use Dr Foul's patent beard oil!