Oh, the thought experiment is a comment on the spectators, not a prediction about how things may turn out. By the by, I think I agree with you.

If Russia remains in Ukraine for the next 10 years, murdering its citizens, destroying its infrastructure, and (further) killing it's economy, I wonder if Western observers will still proclaim that "Russia isn't winning" - because their metric of success is simply 'how good or bad is Russia doing' and not 'how much are the Ukrainians getting fucked', because these people have been so obsessed with Putin and Russia that Ukrainian lives are simply by-products of 'sticking it to Russia'.

So, do you believe that organisations like CNN, Al Jazeera, the BBC, etc., are doing something other than reporting the news? — Wayfarer

How is this even a question? Of course they are. It doesn't necessarily require 'disinformation' - as in, the misreporting of facts, or disseminating false information, but it absolutely includes issues of how an issue is framed - what actors are assumed to have agency, what the actual problem is considered to be, what kinds of questions are asked (and not asked), who is interviewed, who or what counts as a legitimate source, etc. This is basic media literacy. How on God's green Earth do you think otherwise? CNN is particularly shit, basically propaganda channel for corporate interests and repeating democratic party talking points verbatim.

But one should not forget that Russia has this phenomenon too. Just my point. — ssu

No, you made a comparison and then gave weighting to that comparison. Nice backtrack though. More grist for the laughing mill.

And in a smaller economy, which is one tenth of the size of the US GDP, those Russian arms manufacturers are far more important that in the US for the US economy. — ssu

Yeah, sure, and this has any bearing on the laughable claim that compared to the US, war as a racket is clearer in the Russian case. Have you lived in the 20th or 21st century? Do you think people were going, 'war is racket - just look at Russia'? Seriously, stop saying stupid things.

I was suprised too! But the charts are legit, I checked just in case lol.

But Putin bad so who needs reality when ssu can just make shit up.

So the issue of war being a racket is a far more clear in the Russian case. — ssu

Lol, no one who has looked at where the proportion of money - the only thing that counts - has flowed can say this without being a complete joke.

Capitalism is a wonder to behold. — Banno

Raytheon CEO:

"I think again recognizing we are there to defend democracy and the fact is eventually we will see some benefit in the business over time. Everything that’s being shipped into Ukraine today, of course, is coming out of stockpiles, either at DoD or from our NATO allies, and that’s all great news. Eventually we’ll have to replenish it and we will see a benefit to the business over the next coming years. We don’t make a huge margin on these products. This is all cost-based pricing. But again, the idea here is to make sure that you have the capabilities to deal with whatever threat might be out there, and that has been the mission of Raytheon Technologies since our inception."

https://hbr.org/2022/03/raytheon-ceo-gregory-hayes-how-ukraine-has-highlighted-gaps-in-us-defense-technologies

Once more for those in the back: Dead Ukrainians are Western opportunities.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/03/23/coaltion-donor-whitehaven-coal-governments-donation-ukraine/

I'll say it again: dead Ukranians are good for business (@Banno) -

In the past five years, Whitehaven has handed $98,000 to the federal Liberal Party. They only donate to the Liberals — none of this give-to-both-sides stuff used by so many companies to get in the door of fundraisers. And for that sum, less than $100,000, Whitehaven just got an almighty pay-off.

Scott Morrison is paying Whitehaven an estimated $31 million for Australia’s “donation” of 70,000 tonnes of coal to Ukraine. That will last one generator a few days tops, so won’t do much for the brave people battling the Russian army. But it will do an awful lot for Whitehaven: its $98,000 investment is paying off 316-fold.

I'm a believer in democracy. Would be nice if we had one.

In any case even if I were to agree that Western imperialism is, in fact, some way better than Russian imperialism, it doesn't change the fact that neither I, nor anyone, is obligated to don the pom poms in favor of the former.

Also Popper sucks, like, the most. Maybe second most after Ayn Rand. Both cold war polemicists pretending to be philosophers.

MO — Olivier5

Doesn't count for much.

Western and Russian imperialism.

"Your choice of supporting neither Himmler nor Goring is in no way morally superior to another choice".

Don't do X is not a line of action. — Isaac

To be fair, not supporting American imperial designs is indeed a line of action, much like not supporting Israeli businesses because Israel is committing genocide in Palestine is a line of action.

Also can we talk about how Putin and JK Rowling are allies now? More fun than the baboon.

"If you don't choose between Himmler and Goring then you are a nihilist".

It's wild that this is so hard for people.

Had to literally waste an entire page responding to baboon-grade rubbish in leiu of something so basic.

Lol.

From "why is everyone calling me a cheerleader", to "you must all be cheerleaders like me".

If it makes you feel better.

I owe you nothing and if you'd like to make this thread about me, maybe post me a letter.

If it makes you feel better.

incapacity to make any political choice. — Olivier5

Your stunted imagination about what counts as choice is not my problem.

Like, for instance, the incapacity to explain one's politics would be a symptom. — Olivier5

No I just don't think you're worth my time.

You're the one who equated not flag-waving with 'political nihilism'. You ought to be the target of your own advice.

Fair enough. Take care too.

If I must, not cheering on a bunch of proven murderers and psychopaths is a baseline ideological position of mine. You are of course welcome to do otherwise.

Ah, yes, your utter inability to put me into your preconceived boxes makes me confused.

Making people who obsess over labels functionally incapacitated.

Not everyone can be a politically nihilist — Olivier5

Sorry that you lack the ability and imagination to engage with politics beyond sucking off state power.

I posted to this thread to register my outrage at what is being done to Ukraine, and I'm done with it. — Wayfarer

Except this outrage - entirely valid - comes packed in an apologia and ideological flag-waving for Western power.

As a basic fact of history, that would be correct, yes.

Had Russia actually liberalised, opened up and become part of the liberal economic order after the fall of communism, then there would have been no inherent reason for conflict between Russia and the West. — Wayfarer

Mayhaps you are unfamiliar with the liberal economic 'shock therapy' that Russia was subjected to precisely by the West in the wake of the fall of the USSR, and which paved the way precisely for the monsters now in power. And you are no doubt familiar - but choose to ignore - the imperial designs of Western powers who have never not taken mass slaughter for an opportunity, which is exactly what they are doing at the moment.

Or, bluntly put: Dead Ukrainians are to the advantage of the West, and anyone who doesn't think so is not paying attention.

The basic problem is that nobody of course does know how in reality any nuclear exchange would go. — ssu

No actually it's pretty clear, a nuclear exchange would be apocalyptic and anyone who thinks it is 'unclear' is a psychopath.

Man it's always nice to read a Zizek take - he gives form to thoughts that I don't know how to put together well:

While the global liberal-capitalist order is obviously approaching a crisis at many levels, the war in Ukraine is being falsely and dangerously simplified. Global problems like climate change play no role in the hackneyed narrative of a clash between barbaric-totalitarian countries and the civilized, free West. And yet the new wars and great-power conflicts are also reactions to such problems.

...While we should stand firmly behind Ukraine, we must avoid the fascination with war that has clearly seized the imaginations of those who are pushing for an open confrontation with Russia. Something like a new non-aligned movement is needed, not in the sense that countries should be neutral in the ongoing war, but in the sense that we should question the entire notion of the “clash of civilizations.”

The new non-alignment must broaden the horizon by recognizing that our struggle should be global – and by counseling against Russophobia at all costs. We should offer our support to those within Russia who are protesting the invasion. They are not some abstract coterie of internationalists; they are the true Russian patriots – the people who truly love their country and have become deeply ashamed of it since February 24. There is no more morally repulsive and politically dangerous saying than, “My country, right or wrong.” Unfortunately, the first casualty of the Ukraine war has been universality.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/onpoint/hot-peace-putins-war-as-clash-of-civilization-by-slavoj-zizek-2022-03

--

Incidentally, the injunction to not 'cheerlead' means precisely to not give into the insane demand that one either stands with "the West" or else is some kind of Putin supporter. A false choice made for morons without power, by morons with power.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/03/joe-biden-administration-privatization-medicare-health-insurance-direct-contracting-entities

Job Biden: The More Efficient Trump. If fuckwits like NOS had any political coherency they ought to be championing Biden, not attacking him.

new Medicare privatization scheme developed under President Donald Trump and now being expanded under President Joe Biden is forcing hundreds of thousands of seniors onto new private Medicare plans without their consent.

The development represents a troubling new dimension in the fight by corporate interests to privatize Medicare, the federal health insurance program for people sixty-five or older. Medicare Advantage, which allows for-profit health insurers to offer privatized benefits through Medicare, already results in unexpected costs for routine procedures and wrongful denials of care. Private plans have cost Medicare an astonishing $143 billion since 2008, and are now driving some health insurers’ record profits.

The new Direct Contracting Entity (DCE) program similarly adds a private sector third party between patients and Medicare services. Medicare allows these intermediary companies to offer unique benefits, like gym membership coverage. But as for-profit operations ranging from private insurers to publicly traded companies to private equity firms, these intermediaries are incentivized to limit the care that patients receive, especially when they are very sick.

impression I get is some here get the same type of pleasure out of this they get out of rooting for the underdog at a football game and that's not something they want to give up. — Baden

Absolutely this. These people have been reared on underdog stories their whole life and now that they get a real, live one, oooh boy is it exciting and thrilling for them.

Mariupol 3(!) days ago. Just a few broken bones. Just a David.

I'm convinced that some people think war is a video game because that is literally the only association they've ever had with it, Ukranians being just NPCs who can drop dead in mass fashion so long as they get a 'win' trophy at the end.

Imagine using Afghanistan as a country that turned out well after a protracted war.

To say nothing of the current American induced famine over there right now.

Tens of thousands of dead Ukranians, cities turned to ash = "some broken bones"

Jfc

People are not given agency because you're offended by the suggestion they don't have it. — Isaac

:up: