I any country achieved it...it would be significant throughout the world. — Frank Apisa

It already exists in the Northern European countries.

Regards
DL

We might wind up simply with government employees buying islands, buying homes made of diamonds, etc. — Terrapin Station

And you think the rich who let us use their table scraps will allow that do you?

Regards
DL

You mean you think so. That's what I gathered from the rest of your post. — ralfy

No. Nature changes. It never collapses. That does not mean that mankind can live in whatever the environment changes to, although I think we will.
Insects are currently suffering a massive extinction event, as well as other species. Life and the earth will always be here but most of us might not be as much of our food is reliant on insects.

We are shooting ourselves in the foot but it is a toss up as to whether we will let it fester and rot and kill us by slow poison or fix it.

Regards
DL

(and higher taxes on the top 5% to pay for it). — YuZhonglu

But I'm against any blatant wealth redistribution — YuZhonglu

Your last contradicts your first.

Regards
DL

What's to stop them from taking all the money for themselves (and using it to bribe everyone else?). — YuZhonglu

Eh, a transparent system connected to the tax system. Statistics would show any corruption.

Regards
DL

We should now make a commitment to insure that every human on the planet should have adequate food, clothing, shelter, educational opportunities, medical care...and even communication and entertainment devises....like phones and televisions. — Frank Apisa

We as a world, yes. The U.S. doing so would be irrelevant to the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, Yanks misname what you propose socialism. Americans are not as bright as most when it comes to labels.

Regards
DL

I'm a guy. :rofl: — Purple Pond

So am I.
The saying applies to all where I come from.
Regards
.DL

It's been my experience nearly everyone comes for the entertainment, the sheer excitement of participation. — Daniel Cox

That sounds more appealing than why I post. I see it as my social duty to try to reduce the harm and poor thinking I see out here. I try to live by the Golden Rule and sometimes quote the following.

Change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

I am not a good person, but perhaps some day.

It is harder when I have a delinquent attitude and a ------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIjddye2JSA

Regards
DL

You fight for us, you are one with us. — Daniel Cox

If reincarnation were true, which is doubtful, I would wish to return as a Jew.
I do not know if I would make a good one given how in the face of Christianity I am.

When anyone makes a claim we deem irrational, the proper response is to placate the person, not intentionally irritate them. — Daniel Cox

I value truth and put it forwards in the most polite way I can until my interlocutor gets his back up and gets belligerent or obtuse.

I like to live by this wise quote and have no problem in using tough love thanks to my lack of a proper upbringing.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

We all come to these places to either learn, teach or preach. I come to teach in the hopes of losing an argument and learning something new. I argue hard for my side but hope the other side wins.

Learning something new or changing ones mind and having a paradigm shift is one of the greatest pleasures in life and I am greedy for my next treat. I have been waiting years now and my apotheosis may have ended my ability to have that pleasure.

Regards
DL

I have no idea of why we are not doing it...but it is to our shame that we allow it to exist. — Frank Apisa

I agree with all you put.

We are not doing it because we have too many voices/leaders competing for crumbs while ignoring that the main meal is rotting from lack of consumption by the masses.

Our leaders have forgotten that they are to lead by duty and for honor. They are not honorable people as can be seen in Trump and pope Francis. I name those as undeserving leaders of many.

Regards
DL

"Is Global Collapse Imminent?" — ralfy

I do not think so.
I think things will get a lot worse and that that will trigger the globalization in us as we will recognize that without a global political and religious system, we will suffer a hell of a lot more.
If spaceship earth is to not go into a deep depression, it will have to elect a captain to run it.

Most of this hardship and change could be averted if our oligarch owners would cooperate more and compete less. That might take globalization.

Regards
DL

i/danielcox25 — Daniel Cox

I tend to get along quite well with Jews as compared to others who claim a religious affiliation.
I think that the Jews were well on their way to a moral ideology before Christianity usurped Yahweh and changed the world's perception of what he originally was.

I am pleased that you like me as I tend to speak more to theists than others and get a lot of hate thrown at me. Truth draws a lot of hate from those who do not want to hear it.

I dislike that many hate Jews. Jealousy from others has plagued you guys forever. Or at least from the time you, as a tribe, reformed from being the killers that you were when still living as nomadic shepherds. At least that is what Joseph Campbell said.

Regards
DL

That's interesting. But death wishes aren't only held by the elderly. I wanted to die since I was eleven years old. (I'm not saying this to make anyone feel about about me.) — Purple Pond

They have reasons. I guess that your reason is not worthy of you acting on it, a good thing, as you are still here buddy.

Perhaps wanting to loose your cherry is what is keeping you going. ;-)
I had to throw that in there.

Regards
DL

"done in the right context," "Who made them supreme?" Exactly. — Daniel Cox

Whoever takes their cash.

Regards
DL

We've been discussing "Supreme Being." That's what I'm claiming against all the rules. We're not allowed to evangelize here.

I can't make an argument for myself. — Daniel Cox

Who declared you supreme, and as compared to who?

I have done what you call evangelize for Gnostic Christianity. If done in the right context, it is allowed.

Do as you like and if a mod is offended and i am not, I will back you up.

That or I can meet you at some other site of your choosing if you are not comfy here.

Regards
DL
.

Look, I can't claim to be Messiah here. All is lost. — Daniel Cox

??
Ok.

Regards
DL

Yes. Death is the best painkiller there is. — Purple Pond

There is that aspect for sure.

it seems that many elderly that I have known would agree.

Regards
DL

Note that it has already been established that naturalism (atheism) is based on a logical fallacy. — Daniel Cox

You have so many issues and doors open that I hardly know where to start, especially given that in philosophy, it is said that the definition of words usually happens after a more general discourse takes place with more common language and terms. You force the opposite but let's see what happens and if we can chat.

To what I quoted.
What fallacy?
I must have missed it.

Mysticism & naturalism are diametrically opposed — Daniel Cox

I disagree.

noun: mysticism
1.belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
"St. Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"

2.belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.
"there is a hint of New Age mysticism in the show's title"

Even this definitions has built in contradictions.
=========
Naturalism
In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."

Even this definition I disagree with as spiritual thinking, if not laws, do operate here.
==========
The above is why definitions are left to the end of a discussion.

Let's ignore most of what you put for now as we will not even get going on anything.

Let's see if we can chat on your fallacy notion and see where it goes. At least we will learn each others styles.

Regards
DL

How can one try and top mysticism with "Everything is natural." There is something mystical about that claim, — Daniel Cox

As you say, things can be said in various ways and yet mean the same thing.

I do not see a conflict between mysticism and nature. That is why I describe myself as an esoteric ecumenist and naturalist. As a Gnostic Christian, I happen to use the more mystical natural Jesus and his way to the only salvation possible. That of the way we think.

I don't think we have an argument other that the use of terms like supreme. In a divine council, no one is supreme till supremacy is granted by others. It is not a title one can give ones self.

English is a poor language. I prefer my French. It is a cleaner language to use.

Regards
DL

Hi, already shared with you the essence of Christian mysticism. I can't bid against myself, I can't advance a bid against a bid which has not been beaten. — Daniel Cox

Right over my head. I have no idea as to what you are talking about.

Regards
DL

I'm trying to draw out the motivation behind or driving this thread... — Wallows

I was kind of hoping some Christians would argue for their desire to live eternally but it seems that most do not want that any more than the rest who suspect that there is nothing else after death.

That or they just do not believe in it any more than they really believe that their satanic god is good.

Their religiosity has nothing to do with a god and has everything to do with their appeasement of the tribal natures.

Regards
DL

If I understand you correctly, then your ---

The Supreme Being holding me in existence — Daniel Cox

--- is you calling yourself a Supreme being. That sounds rather egotistical.

In what supreme sense are you talking about?

Regards
DL

I'm not claiming to be a Christian. Why would I when you're claiming "Christians run from moral discussions." Forfeiture by wrongdoing. — Daniel Cox

My oops then.

Who is your god if not the Christian god?

Regards
DL

I'm being held in existence by God, God is holding me in existence. I don't see a gap. Can you point one out to me? — Daniel Cox

No, as you have decided to go into intellectual and moral dissonance by a belief in the supernatural.

You have yet to put away the things of children, as scriptures put it.

That is why you idol worship a genocidal son murdering prick of a god and see him as good.

Regards
DL.

A god can be an admired or adored person. It's a part of the English language. A natural language. — Daniel Cox — Frank Apisa

God can also be hated by those who care about morals.

That is why Christians always run away from moral discussions. They know that their moral sense has been corrupted by their beliefs.

Regards
DL

If you want to say that the laws of nature are self explaining, then you are saying God controls the universe directly instead of via laws — Daniel Cox

No I am not.

I am saying that if the God of the gaps is all religions can come up with, then they are in trouble.

Check the stats and note just how much trouble the shrinking religions are.

If the best man can invent are gods whose religions use inquisitions and jihads to grow, then you can easily dither our how vile our mainstream religions are.

Regards
DL

Those who default to the supernatural instead of the natural.

...ARE FOOLS. — Frank Apisa

Are we done, fool?

Regards
DL

Literalist readers of myths are fools.

Regards
DL

Beats me.

A better question is: Since it seems humans invented gods like Zeus, Ra, Jehovah and that crappy like...why is that used by the fools of the world to suppose no gods exist...rather than that humans are fallible when it comes to describing some things? — Frank Apisa

So if the religions are that far off the mark, it shows who the fools are.

Those who have the faith of fools have to hide behind a supernatural shield.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes their mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL

Perhaps significant that you spelled "out loud" incorrectly. — Frank Apisa

I am French buddy and I can screw up in 3 languages.Only those who seek cheap points remark on such minute errors.

If a fool want to think there is a god by faith alone, then he has faith without facts and is truly a fool.

The wise go with reality and not some imaginary god, who just happens to be a genocidal son murdering prick of a god.

If fools are going to make up a god, can you tell us why they choose to create such a vile prick of a god?

Regards
DL

Terrapin Station
8.4k

What do you mean when you say you are an "atheist," Terrapin?

Are you expressing a "belief" or guess that there are no gods...or are you simply saying you lack a "belief" that any gods exist?

If the latter, to you also lack a "belief" that no gods exist? Are you generally lacking a belief in whether gods exist or do not exist? — Frank Apisa


I believe/I'm asserting the fact that no gods exist. — Terrapin Station
Okay...so you are a "believer."

It may be a correct guess. If I were to "hope" on the matter (I seldom do)...it is what I hope is the truth. — Frank Apisa

A fool says in his heart, there is no God; -- a wise man says it out laud.

Regards
DL

Why do you have Christian in your nickname if you know little to nothing about the religion, is it supposed to be ironic? — whollyrolling

Just to see who the less educated are.

I am happy to teach you anything you misunderstand about both Christianity, and it's more intelligent form of Gnostic Christianity.

Ask nice.

Regards
DL

No, that's not for me. — Pattern-chaser

True, but it is not true for those foolish enough to believe in the supernatural.

Regards
DL

ZhouBoTong — ZhouBoTong

Nice that we both see the harm and foolishness within the religions that have used inquisitions and jihads against the innocent.

Regards
DL

Notice that Jesus never actually committed sin — ZhouBoTong

That is not what I read, especially if I follow the stupid Trinity concept. Yahweh/Jesus sins quite a bit.
Even if I do not tie Jesus to Yahweh, I still see Jesus as sinning on occasion.

His fit against the merchants at the temple is just one example.

Regards
DL

ZhouBoTong — ZhouBoTong

I go by whatever a poster says and answer by my impression of if he is a believer or not. I sometimes miss the mark, like here apparently. Apologies.

At least you have learned how I deal with the scapegoat riders.

I hope any of those lurking around answer as you did but they tend not to, if they reply at all. Most run for the hills and refuse to be honest.

Regards
DL

Jesus was crucified to die for humanity's sin. (everyone knows this) The part that is forgot is that Jesus takes on all of humanity's sin right before death (if he was without sin there would be no cause of his death). This is when Jesus says something along the lines of "why have you foresaken me?" as a divine being is suddenly thrust into a mortal body suffering the effects of sin, he is struggling and asks God for help. There is also mention of "god is saving something for Jesus in heaven", the best guess as to what is being saved is Jesus' divinity, which had to be sacrificed in order to take on sin.

Also, know that A LOT of the bible is just justifying that god does not lie (if the wage of death is sin, and Jesus is taking on humanity's sins, he MUST die or god is a liar). — ZhouBoTong

God is the father of lies.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets. 2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. Jer 4:10

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. Thessalonians 2:11

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. - Jeremiah 20:7

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.

As to Jesus dying for us. I do not think he would break the laws he said he came fulfill. Do you really want to make Jesus a moral monster?

Here are his laws.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral? Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

Frankly I just think that gnostic christian guy is trying to scare people by bringing up the inevitability of death, — Maureen

Not at all.
My intent was to dissuade any who though eternity to be desirable from that thinking.
I also wanted to bring those who believe in the supernatural back to thinking in a healthy natural way.
Scriptures say that adults are to put away the things of children and that would include supernatural thinking.
I also wanted to compare heaven to hell to show how heaven would be hell when the souls in heaven had to watch most of their friends and family burning below them in purposeless torture forever.
Only the insane could live through that or respect a god who set up such a foul system.

Regards
DL

I believe a Creator deity who is ineffable perhaps in some indirect/direct is controlling the universe but that is my personal belief. — Anaxagoras

I see that as faith, not belief.
Beliefs are usually based on facts while faith lacks any facts.
That might be splitting hairs to you but it is a fact.

Regards
DL

Do I want to live forever? No. — Anaxagoras

That was what I wanted to know.

It fits in as it questions what god wants. If a happy fault and necessary to his plan, then he would want us to sin. — Gnostic Christian Bishop
I'm not sure I understand this. — Anaxagoras

Try thinking this way. Psychotropic drug studies show that drug users are risk takers.
Risk takers have been shown to be better adjusted than (tea totalers) those who never take risks.
As a parent who knows this, I kind of hope that my children take drugs, in a safe way, as that says that they are better adjusted than if they did not. Think of sin as a necessary evil or a small amount of evil within the larger good.

I also use evolution as an example of this. We must cooperate and compete to be normal. When we cooperate, we do not create a loser or victim who would feel evil has come his way. When we compete, which we must do, we create a loser or one who feels evil has come to him.
Creating a loser and hurting him is evil, but an evil that we must do if we are to continue evolving, which we must do. A small evil in a larger good.

Regards
DL