The problem is - that denies free will. — Shamshir

What free will could A & E have when they did not know anything of good and evil?

To make a free willed choice and not a coin flip, one must know what one is choosing from. Right?

You cannot order lunch without knowing what is on the menu. Right?

A & E could not even desire to choose without knowledge of what they were choosing.

Regards
DL

The creation story is a great piece; just don't take it literally. — Bitter Crank

Any who do miss the moral of the story.

Note that the Jews see our elevation which Christianity sees a fall.

Jews are correct while Christians are conflicted as they sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Regards
DL

1. We lack a complete knowledge of "good and evil" — TheMadFool

I do not agree with this.

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

I can almost guarantee that our morals are better than bible gods and that like 70 odd % of the population, we begin our moral sense with the Golden Rule. Most other begin with a variant of it.

Regards
DL

Your misinterpretation of the Bible is one reason why some people say that only adults should be allowed to read it. It is a richly complex book, and the uninitiated, unguided often make a hash out of it. — Bitter Crank

Especially when one is fool enough to read a myth literally.

Regards
DL

Why not focus more energy on an interpersonal /inspirational relationship with The Man called Jesus. — 3017amen

Because Christianity has tied Jesus to Yahweh which makes Jesus party to the genocide of man in Noah's days.

Jesus himself is shown as having really poor morals.
Just look at his no divorce and substitutional punishment policies.

Both of those are satanic.

As a Gnostic Christian, I use one of the Jesus' shown in scriptures but you will not see the church quote that one.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

It makes better sense for humans to recognize their finitude and seek Revelation in this case through Christianity. — 3017amen

Why should anyone seek what is shown to be a satanic genocidal god?

Should people not seek a good god?

Regards
DL

are you saying that it's prudent to have eatin from the tree of knowledge in order to gain wisdom and the like, or are you saying ignorance is bliss? — 3017amen

I am saying that one cannot be a decent human being without knowledge of good and evil, which is basically the knowledge of everything as everything is subject to the adjectives of good and or evil.

A & E chose wisely and perhaps that is why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's [plan.

Christians are conflicted on this as they call what is necessary to god's plan good, yet still call what A & E did a fall.

Stupid is as stupid thinks.

Regards
DL

I can't see where the confusion came from, haha. Still sounds like a sarcastic atheist to me. — ZhouBoTong

Perhaps you I.Q. just needs a boost. Let me help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

Regards
DL

They just need to get the price right. — TheMadFool

They need to be as big of liars and hypocrites as the religious. Trump is already there.

Regards
DL

just wonder how an omniscient being could not and an omnipotent being did not. — TheMadFool

The conclusion should lead you to recognize that god is not defined properly as no one can access the supernatural realm he is said to exist in.

Men put many lies in the bible.

Regards
DL

Or the god of any of the Abrahamic religions. Or any other religion that claims god is all good. — khaled

True. In a dualistic world, god must have a Yin and Yang. The bible confirms this.

Regards
DL

among many others, is the hatred they have for God and religion and the contempt they feel for those who believe. — T Clark

Indeed. They are a disgrace toi the human race.

Why do you not hate a genocidal and infanticidal god?

Regards
DL

However, as far as I know, God's goodness is a core tenet of most versions of Christianity, — EricH

True, and how Christians get from a genocidal and infanticidal god to look good is something Christians run away from explaining.

Regards
DL

Do you blame your parents for all your faults? — Tzeentch

No. They did the best they could with what they had.

Do you credit your parents to some extent for the good in you?

Why would you compare humans to to a god?

Regards
DL

That's why I love mankind — T Clark

If you love mankind, then you should hate the gods that would enslaver us. like Yahweh and Allah.

Regards
DL

and hopefully not too late. — Coben

We are already a part of a major global extinction event.

We may have doomed our grandchildren.

Regards
DL

Think of humans. Would you consider true/real Artificial Intelligence "poor craftmanship"? — TheMadFool

I don't know as I have yet to see such a thing.

Why would you compared a man's ability to a gods?

Do you see us as equal to god or perhaps better given our better secular law?

Regards
DL

The moral reality of “The Fall” or “The Disobedience in the Garden”or the “Original Sin” is central to christian theology — Brainglitch

True, yet to the Jews who invented Yahweh, Eden was where man was elevated and not where he fell.

Christians seem to ignore how the Jews defined Yahweh and reversed the moral of the story.

That is the poor state of Christian apologetics and why Christianity is dying.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Regards
DL

Or was your only intention to insult God? — T Clark

My only intention is to make Christians think of the prick they are idol worshiping and recognize that such a prick is not a worthy god.

Hitchens, is not a literalist but has to use a literalist stance if he is going to criticize them.
He was reporting what believers believe and not what he believes so I see you as the dishonest one who would rather waste time arguing for the existence of that myth instead of looking at the immorality of a satanic Yahweh.

Regards
DL

If there is a 'God', He wholly made human nature to be what it is, and so it expresses itself accordingly, over a great range stretching from angelic to devilish, to no big surprise. — PoeticUniverse

There is no god and we follow our instincts quite well. Jut look at how successful humankind is.

Yet we still complain against about how the boogie man created us.

Regards
DL

God indeed loved the world, He even gave up His only-begotten son so that anyone believing in Him should not perish". — Serving Zion

A second class and immoral solution to a self-created problem.

A human man would do the opposite and step up himself instead of sending a son to die.

Right?

anyone who does not love does not know God, for — Serving Zion

Love is not a genocidal god and to say that Yahweh knows how to love is not demonstrated. The opposite is in fact shown.

In order to really understand why what she did was so bad, we need to look at what it means to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. — Serving Zion

What is bad about following an immoral command to stay stupid and too dumb to even know they were naked.

To remain with their eyes closed is what would have been stupid and immoral. That is why Jews have no original sin concept and see man as elevated by our ignoring a fools command to stay stupid and uneducated.

is to reckon that sometimes evil can serve our interests well. — Serving Zion

It certainly does if you can see that little bit of evil as compared to the real evil that would be if man stopped his evolution.

We must compete to survive and thrive and that competition is the cause of all human against human evil. It creates a victim or loser to the competition.

1. This is the Jewish version of Pandora's box, meant to explain why bad stuff exists and how it relates to knowledge and making choices. It's also an allegory for growing up. — Marchesk

It is indeed, and growing up is quite good, so we should be happy that A & E told god where to shove his really evil commandment.

Regards
DL

Yes, we can't forget that money seems to break the laws of nature. — TheMadFool

??

You mean it shows the laws of nature and how we let our insecurities lead our thinking.

We all want to be close to power, even if it is power used for evil.

Note how many idolize a genocidal and infanticidal prick of a god.

Regards
DL

if you kill someone you go to jail. — TheMadFool

Yes but the thing is, we do less killing.

Ignore the stats and you ignore reality.

Regards
DL

it is really good? — Coben

Is it? I don't think so but you go ahead and think that if you like.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool — TheMadFool

You say that there is a disproportionate amount of evil, while I see the opposite.

You are not looking at the big picture and do not seem able to read stats correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

Check any stat for evil that you like and you will see that it is likely at the best position we have yet to enjoy. Not the eco system of course.

Regards
DL

Yep yep.

Regards
DL

it demonstrating that the Bible contains fairytales. — PoeticUniverse

They have always known this. Religions are not really about beliefs. They are about assuaging insecurity. Peer pressure and fellowship are there as well.

Regards
DL

"God is not a magician" — PoeticUniverse

True but he can make moral people call his immoral ass good.

That is power.

Regards
DL

Hence insulting their intelligence, amongst other things, might be best avoided. — Coben

Insults, like all dialog, have a use.

If you are to think, you chance insulting others.

The obtuse fall hard. Poor things.

Regards
DL

solution to the problem of evil. — TheMadFool

??

Evil is good and not a problem if you look at the bigger picture.
.
Take evil out of our evolution and we go extinct.

It's a long story. This was written for a theist.
-------------
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pope-would-you-accept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

He might as well be living, per the believers' beliefs, and it's tough to replace dogma. — PoeticUniverse

More like hard to replace the insecurity that has people believe in idiocy instead of just growing up.

Regards
DL

So, you are tolerant of people with supernatural beliefs as long as they treat other people well? — Coben

Absolutely. That is the best way to be. Right?

not tolerant of people who believe differently that you do and doesn't fit that list the other posted regarding the qualities of Gnostics. — Coben

Gnosis has little to do with my opinion on the supernatural. Rejecting the supernatural is just adult common sense.

You are trying hard to brand me. Forget it.

Regards
DL

R.I.P. The Biblical 'God' idea — PoeticUniverse — PoeticUniverse

It is not so much to kill Yahweh. It is to have more moral people than he is recognize that they are that.

I want to bring good news to their egos and minds by improving their thinking, not bad news that their god is dead. If dead, he will just be replaced. Let him live as an example of evil.

That is the lesson to be learned. I come to heal, not to kill. I am not like Yahweh. I have a Christ mind.

Regards
DL

So if someone believes in supernatural things, you assume that they will treat others immorally? — Coben

Where did I indicate such nonsense?

Regards
DL

I am not going to guess at meanings and intent.

Of course I am intolerant to the intolerant homophobes and misogynous and those who willfully put some supernatural genocidal prick above their moral sense that says such a real big prick is evil.

If you don't, what the hell is wrong with you?

Regards
DL

obsessive behavior — fresco

Thanks for the non peer reviewed opinion, which I could argue easily against but am not interested in doing as there is too much garbage in it. In my opinion of course.
Further, the writer is not around for me to argue with and all I have is a guy that can npot put his own words and opinion down.

What obsessive behavior are you attributing to me and can you not stay large minded and stay away from all your personal garbage?

Regards
DL

From googling 'The Cult of Gnosticism'

Gnosticism is a philosophical and religious movement which started in pre-Christian times. The term is derived from the Greek word gnosis which means "knowledge". Gnostics claimed to have secret knowledge about God, humanity and the rest of the universe of which the general population was unaware. It became one of the three main belief systems within 1st century Christianity, and was noted for its:

-novel beliefs about Gods, the Bible and the world which differed from those of other Christian groups

-tolerance of different religious beliefs within and outside of Gnosticism

-lack of discrimination against women — fresco

I see nothing to argue against here. Thanks for posting it.

Do you think our ways superior to the Christian ways of misogyny and intolerance of even other Christian cults?

Regards
DL

'to respect all religions' — fresco

Where did you read this?

It is not true at all. How could it be when we are known for denouncing Yahweh as a demiurge.

You might want to put your brain in gear so as to not look completely stupid and remember as you speak of others.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Reciprocity is fair play and that is why I lowered myself to your little mind's level.

Regards
DL

.

Plus also a wish to carry on beyond our expiration date, which can turn religious or zen… — PoeticUniverse

Those who have that insane desire need to read some of the Shangri-La stories to know why they would wish to be dead if they had eternal life.

Even the ancients know of this and that may be why they showed A & E rejecting the tree of life for the tree of knowledge.

Regards
DL

I meant to say that, hidden in our psyche, there's a part of us that wants God to exist. The times when we're distracted by the many pleasures of worldly life we don't get to see that part of us but it does surface when we're in mortal danger.

This of course is not proof that God exists but it does go to show that we're willing to forgive his faults, meaning us, our vices and the world, its unforgiving nature. — TheMadFool

To your first. Sure we want a crutch to help us through hard times. That desire is fueled as you rightly indicate, by our psyche. You might have the time for these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MYsx6WArKY

To your last.

I can appreciate forgiving god as we wish to forgive ourselves.

I cannot appreciate a moral mind thinking that a good god-- sarcasm --- should be forgiven for genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL