Humans and bananas share 50 to 60 percent of the same DNA. So there is a 40 to 50 percent genetic difference between humans and bananas. :nerd: — Agree-to-Disagree

The environmental crisis is linked to other forms of oppression, such as racism, sexism, and classism. For example, the disproportionate impact of environmental pollution on poor and minority communities is a form of environmental racism. (Ecology and Revolution)

The struggle against environmental destruction is not just a struggle for a clean environment. It is also a struggle for a more just and humane society." (Counterrevolution and Revolt) — Herbert Marcuse

The term "climate justice" is used a lot by people who are worried about the climate crisis. Can anybody please explain to me what "climate justice" is? — Agree-to-Disagree

Justice is nothing more than the instinct of resentment, refined by cleverness. — Nietzsche

Sort of. I'm making a series of puppets that have human bodies and animal heads. — frank

Uh huh — frank

"We did serious harm to our children and young adults who were robbed of their education, jobs and normal existence, as well as suffering damage to their future prospects, while they were left to inherit a record-breaking mountain of public debt...

"... We were mesmerised by the once-in-a-century scale of the emergency and succeeded only in making a crisis even worse. In short, we panicked. This was an epidemic crying out for a precision public health approach and it got the opposite."
— Professor Woolhouse, professor of infectious disease epidemiology at Edinburgh University, previously Scottish Covid-19 policy advisor

"The use of fear has definitely been ethically questionable. It’s been like a weird experiment. Ultimately, it backfired because people became too scared"
— Member of UK SAGE - wishing, quite rightly, to remain anonymous talking to the Telegraph

"implementation was often too harsh, too inflexible, too slow to adapt and too dismissive of basic rights...

"... the balance between the costs and benefits of lockdowns swung towards costs long before governments were willing to lift them.

"... Political calculation was never far from the surface of COVID-19 decisions. This had a negative effect on economic activity and national morale. Leaders routinely claimed to base policy on expert advice. It is true that some CHOs favoured harsher measures. But it became clear that experts (both within and outside government) often differed in their advice"
— Fault lines: An independent review into Australia’s response to COVID-19

"No strong reason against [masking children] in corridors etc, and no very strong reasons for. ...not worth an argument"
— Chis Whitty, UK Chief Medical Officer in leaked Whatsapp message

"In reality we haven’t found shielding easy or very effective first time round and I don’t think anyone else has either."
— Patrick Vallance, the UK chief scientific adviser in leaked Whatsapp message

"Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference"
— Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses

"A large study in the UK and another that surveyed people internationally found that people with a history of SARS-CoV-2 infection experienced greater rates of side effects after vaccination. Among 2000 people who completed an online survey after vaccination, those with a history of covid-19 were 56% more likely to experience a severe side effect that required hospital care.

"Patrick Whelan, of UCLA, says the “sky high” antibodies after vaccination in people who were previously infected may have contributed to these systemic side effects. “Most people who were previously ill with covid-19 have antibodies against the spike protein. If they are subsequently vaccinated, those antibodies and the products of the vaccine can form what are called immune complexes,” he explains, which may get deposited in places like the joints, meninges, and even kidneys, creating symptoms.

"Other studies suggest that a two dose regimen may be counterproductive. One found that in people with past infections, the first dose boosted T cells and antibodies but that the second dose seemed to indicate an “exhaustion,” and in some cases even a deletion, of T cells. “I’m not here to say that it’s harmful,” says Bertoletti, who coauthored the study, “but at the moment all the data are telling us that it doesn’t make any sense to give a second vaccination dose in the very short term to someone who was already infected. Their immune response is already very high.”"
— https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101

"Vaccine injury is a subject that few in the medical profession have wanted to talk about... Regulators of the medical profession have censored public discussion about adverse events following immunisation, with threats to doctors not to make any public statements about anything that ‘might undermine the government’s vaccine rollout’ or risk suspension or loss of their registration"
— Dr. Kerryn Phelps, former chair of AMA

"Since the pandemic began, there have been just over 30,000 excess deaths involving heart disease - on average over 230 additional deaths a week above expected heart disease death rates.

"...Covid infections are no longer a driving force behind the excess heart disease death rate.

"...significant and widespread disruption to heart care services has driven the ongoing surge in excess deaths involving heart disease in England."
— British Heart Foundation

"The COVID-19 pandemic has reversed years of global progress in tackling tuberculosis and for the first time in over a decade, TB deaths have increased, according to the World Health Organization’s 2021 Global TB report.

"In 2020, more people died from TB, with far fewer people being diagnosed and treated or provided with TB preventive treatment compared with 2019, and overall spending on essential TB services falling.

"The first challenge is disruption in access to TB services and a reduction in resources. In many countries, human, financial and other resources have been reallocated from tackling TB to the COVID-19 response, limiting the availability of essential services.

"The second is that people have struggled to seek care in the context of lockdowns."
— World Health Organisation

...and in case anyone was thinking this was an unexpected side-effect...

"Even temporary disruptions can cause long-term increases in TB incidence and mortality. If lockdown-related disruptions cause a temporary 50% reduction in TB transmission, we estimated that a 3-month suspension of TB services, followed by 10 months to restore to normal, would cause, over the next 5 years, an additional 1⋅19 million TB cases (Crl 1⋅06–1⋅33) and 361,000 TB deaths (CrI 333–394 thousand) in India, 24,700 (16,100–44,700) TB cases and 12,500 deaths (8.8–17.8 thousand) in Kenya, and 4,350 (826–6,540) cases and 1,340 deaths (815–1,980) in Ukraine. The principal driver of these adverse impacts is the accumulation of undetected TB during a lockdown."
— The potential impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the tuberculosis epidemic a modelling analysis - The Lancet

... does that give any clues as to who might now be too embarrassed to comment retrospectively on how we handled the pandemic? — Isaac

Are they? — frank

We have a legacy of racism. — frank

They'll gladly load racism into their basket along with refusing to accept that there is any such thing as a climate. — frank

Or it's Marxist. Depends on which direction the polar vortex is blowing — frank

Climate is a word that plays a part in language games, but it would be a mistake to think it has a foundation beyond that. That's just rank foundationalism. — frank

Climate is a word that plays a part in language games, but it would be a mistake to think it has a foundation beyond that. That's just rank foundationalism. — frank

Isn't that a genetic fallacy? No, not quite. Maybe ad odium? Or an association fallacy. — jorndoe

Exactly— forget the evidence, and forget understanding the science. Just apply said analysis and presto— sit back and feel good about yourself. — Mikie

Not ureasonable I suppose for someone with a lack of experience with science and scientists. However, regardless of how reasonably understood it might be that you hold that view (being as ignorant as you demonstrate yourself to be) ignorant conspiracy theory rationalization is what it is. — wonderer1

the what? — frank

Insect supercolonies don't have this problem. It's why they end up taking over the world. — frank

This analysis holds up. Life has evolved over billions of years. Evolution isn’t a fact— it’s an official narrative. Scientists are forced into conforming. — Mikie

The people who live underground have a static social order and they routinely blitz the surface dwellers so they can never advance and start doing crazy stuff like burning coal. This goes on for thousands of years until Yellowstone blows up and initiates the Age of Insects where ant supercolonies develop intellectual sophistication and pizza that isn't fattening. — frank

How do you know? — frank

if it looks like bullshit, talks like bullshit, walks like bullshit, and smells like bullshit, it is most likely bullshit. — Merkwurdichliebe

Alternatively, there's sufficient/overwhelming evidence of anthropogenic climate change. After all, scientists point at available evidence, not at "narratives" or "whatever people's opinions". — jorndoe

Notice how the quote, or something similar, could be raised on any topic with a general consensus, to pseudo-level an unlevel world. Casting it as a truth-independent or conspiracy'esque game instead, has become trendy I guess. — jorndoe

humans all over the place, population growth, deforestation, pollution, nature/wildlife displacement, extinctions, renewability, — jorndoe

The rising of global temperature is due to burning fossil fuels, deforestation and agricultural practices. That exacerbates flooding, draughts, wildfires, stronger hurricanes, icecap melting, sea level rise, etc. — Mikie

you take a class in global warming at a university, they go over this. It's part of comprehending the true dimensions of the problem. — frank

Transmitting an imperative to people a thousand years in the future is just beyond anything we've ever done. — frank

The end-of-the-world narrative is an Indo-European motif. The climate crisis is Armageddon. Capitalism is the Antichrist. I'm talking about the emotional form of it, not the scientific part. — frank

That doesn't mean the end isn't really near. In fact the world is ending all the time. And that's what it's really about: time.

Any good textbook on global warming will have a section on the philosophical challenge of climate change: that this problem will always be with us as long as coal is around to burn. As a species, we have no experience addressing a problem that extends beyond about a hundred years. This problem extends for thousands upon thousands. The real problem is time. — frank

Let's just assume there's competing narratives. How do you tell which one to subscribe to? Assuming it's not false reporting, a majority of scientists state there's a climate crisis and biodiversity crisis looming or already there. Obviously, from a purely logical standpoint I can't claim "the climate crisis is happening because almost all scientists say so" but heuristically that's how we tend to have to operate. And to an important extent the IPCC reports do try to make the science understandable to laymen, if you've read it.

So I kind of miss what exactly is the relevance of pointing out that it's a narrative to assume the science in favour of the global warming hypothese is right or a "fact"? Technically those claims go to far but for the purposes of discussion I've found alternative narratives easy to disprove. — Benkei

Cool. Go do more “critical thinking” — Mikie

Do you realize that the science just happened, coincidentally to confirm an egregious amount of Marcuse's speculations. — Merkwurdichliebe

It’s not a narrative. It’s scientific fact. Supported by overwhelming evidence.

I suppose evolution, electromagnetism, and gravity can be described as “narratives” too, eh? — Mikie

It’s not “my” science. The evidence is there for all to see. Gotta try hard not to understand it, in fact. — Mikie

Always fun to watch people degenerate into spewing nonsense with even the slightest questioning. Oh well. — Mikie

But ultimately irrelevant to this discussion. — Mikie

Marcuse didn’t write about climate change. Nor was anything you quoted from him “overblown.” Seems like coming sense. But ultimately irrelevant to this — Mikie

True, it could all be a communist conspiracy. That’s a fairly common variant of climate denial. It’s on par with creationists being correct about Noah’s flood, but it’s possible. If you want to throw in with that idea, your welcome. — Mikie

Marcuse didn’t write about climate change. Nor was anything you quoted from him “overblown.” Seems like coming sense. But ultimately irrelevant to this discussion. — Mikie

Marcuse didn’t write about climate change. Nor was anything you quoted from him “overblown.” Seems like coming sense. But ultimately irrelevant to this discussion. — Mikie

I personally agree we should be less consumeristic and move away from capitalism — particularly neoliberalism— but so what? There’s reasonable arguments, from Jeremy Grantham for example, about using the better parts of “capitalism” (eg venture capital) to encourage transition. — Mikie

But he wasn’t a climate scientist and wasn’t presenting evidence of global warming or offering concrete solutions. — Mikie

The rising of global temperature is due to burning fossil fuels, deforestation and agricultural practices. That exacerbates flooding, draughts, wildfires, stronger hurricanes, icecap melting, sea level rise, etc. — and could lead to tipping points.

It’s not a narrative. It’s scientific fact. Supported by overwhelming evidence. — Mikie

Not popular media — science. — Mikie

There are plenty of solutions. We’ve barely scratched the surface of that discussion on this thread. — Mikie

Central theory of sustainability? What are you referring to? I’ve read Marcuse— I guess I missed this. But in any case, seems far fetched. — Mikie

What core ideas are you referring to exactly? — Mikie

"The destruction of nature is not an accidental by-product of the capitalist mode of production; it is essential to its functioning. The capitalist economy is based on the endless accumulation of capital, and this requires the endless exploitation of both human and natural resources. The more nature is exploited, the more it is destroyed." (From Ecology and Revolution, 1970)

"The environmental crisis is linked to other forms of oppression, such as racism, sexism, and classism. For example, the disproportionate impact of environmental pollution on poor and minority communities is a form of environmental racism." (From Ecology and Revolution, 1970)

"A sustainable society is one that is based on non-violence and solidarity. This means that it would be a society that respects the rights of all beings, human and non-human, and that works to create a just and equitable world." (From Ecology and Revolution, 1970)

"We need to develop a new sensibility, one that is more in tune with nature and less materialistic. This means that we need to learn to appreciate the beauty of nature and to value it for its own sake, not just for its usefulness to us." (From One-Dimensional Man, 1964)

"The struggle for a sustainable society is a political struggle, a struggle against the dominant ideology of consumerism and the endless accumulation of capital. It is a struggle for a new way of life, a way of life that is based on non-violence, solidarity, and respect for nature." (From Ecology and Revolution, 1970)

Not popular media — science. — Mikie

First, it’s arguable that Marcuse played as big a role in the environmental movement or the idea of sustainability that you seem to be latching yourself to.

Second, if he has indeed played a large role — who cares? What does it have to do with the facts of climate science? — Mikie

In the US, it's George Vanderbilt. He started the world's first forestry school intended to teach loggers how to harvest wood sustainably. But he brought some guy from Germany over to teach. I guess it must have started there originally. — frank