I'm not sure thinking or self awareness stops when you're asleep. What about when you dream, are you not aware of a self when you recall that dream? Who is the dream happening to? What about lucid dreamers who are able to control their surroundings and actions whilst in the dream state.

I think in sleeping we enter different states of consiousness which are, perhaps, no less real than the waking consiousness. In deep, non REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, when dreaming has been found to not occur maybe you are correct. There could indeed be loss of self awareness and verbal thinking in this deep sleep state. Note that the left side of the brain is predominantly involved with the processing of language, logic and verbal thought. However the right side of the brain responds to music, emotion, creativity, art and a whole of host of other traits which aren't easily communicated through words. In meditation it can be found that by limiting the power of words and thoughts over your consciousness you can indeed escape the concept of self and simply have pure awareness. Further, it becomes apparent that pure selfless consciousness/ awareness is a fundamental property of the universe and the waking reality is actually just a secondary illusion!

Do the simulated people still have conscious experiences with a human Chinese computer? I would say no way, it's absurd on the face of it. So then, what would make an electronic computer different in a way that would confer consciousness to its sims? — Marchesk

Creativity. A programmed computer cannot recreate spontaneous and evolutionary new ideas. This is what defines human behaiour above AI and it can't be replicated.

Could you explain exactly the chemical make-up of D20?

Very interesting. I suggest you get some bloodwork done, and maybe get an MRI done. — Wallows

Yeah sorry just to clarify; I've not had blood tests, MRI scans or sought any other medical advice regarding this condition. If these symptoms of excessive sleep continue for a prolonged period outside of my normal work routine then I will, without hesitation, consult a doctor for advice. If medical consultation were to occur I will also try to document the results of any tests on this forum if I think it would offer further evidence of any known medical conditions.

As it stands I have been enjoying the peace of doing as I please each day and so I am merely musing on my own sleep habits and whether this could offer insight concerning this unexplained condition.

I think we get the consequences of our actions. Human actions = Human consequences. If there's an advanced race, don't they have their own business to attend to? — BrianW

There's examples of stronger races (groups) of people controlling others throughout the ages. Take the Spartans as one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate

They essentially trained their own armies from a very young age (7 upwards) to have dominion over a larger but weaker population who had no means to fight back. They enslaved people to farm the land and provide for their luxuries. The Spartans did not perform manual labour, they simply focused all their energies into preparing for combat.

I think this is still applicable today, I'm just not sure as to the extent. People are well aware that they are simply slaves to the system, trapped by debt. Most can just accept that this is the way it is and be happy in their lives, some struggle with it and try to fight against it.

It depends on whether you're ready and/or willing to accept the answer. Personally I believe the answer is in spiritual teachings, but you have to be able to discern the truth yourself. — BrianW

I think this is very true. Its also why I believe there has been a crackdown on entheogens, because they are one way people can access their higher self and find true meaning. Poeple's spiritual connection to the universe is being manipulated by religions and commercialisation and this then allows their lives to be controlled by more 'advanced' people.

Also, the fact that any communication device is potentially a listening device, and the whole world is enmeshed by radio waves, this makes me think that if we really wanted to cut back on crime, if we really wanted to hunt down each and every terrorist, the resources are already there for use. — BrianW

The solutions are there waiting but they are held in balance. It suits an agenda to have people live in fear, to be angry and feel helpless. Is this just a natural part of human evolution, until we reach a breaking point and there is another uprising of the masses. Then a new elite take over?

The world is random, chaotic, and overly unpredictable.

By any chance has the OP been watching "The Blacklist"? This post is pretty much an extreme rip off of the entire like first six seasons of that show. — Grre

Sorry haven't seen The Blacklist but I imagine its exactly the sort of thing I'm getting at. Same as the Illuminati, the all seeing eye, reptilian overlords, 1984 big brother, yellow brick road, matrix, templar knights …. I think there's a good reason why these conspiracy theories exist; because there is in fact some degree of truth in them.

Conspiracy theory appeals to people on a certain instinctive level because our society is structured and is susceptible to interference, or even rule, by unseen powers. I would suggest these powers currently stem from the intelligence agencies (CIA/ MI6 …) but its impossible for we, as the people (sheeple), to know how far or where this unseen influence extends.

Yes the world is unpredictable and chaotic to a certain extent and that is probably our saviour. Nation states grow and shrink, borders and populations move, resources, technology, diseases and wars all have their impacts on world affairs. But through all this there will still always be a subsection of people who hold the power and influence and they will always strive for more.

A basic understanding of markets knows that there have always been patterns of wealth accumulation and crisis points.... The wealthy get fair weather capitalism year round while most folks who try to live an American Dream assets take a real hit..... — thedeadidea

There is a continual push for the people with wealth to keep growing and becoming more powerful at the expense of the ordinary citizens. Whether this is simply greed, the 'system' is geared so that those who are 'successful' trample over everyone else and grow in influence whilst those who show philanthropy and care for humanity have their wealth eroded.

Not only is it possible, it is a fact. Yes, we have secret knowledge and we exert influence over human affairs. Any given ordinary individual may not like the way things are working out, but they are ignorant of our objectives. And they are going to stay ignorant, because we are not going to reveal what our objectives are.

We advise you to discontinue this line of inquiry, for your own good. — Bitter Crank

Ok thanks, you've made me laugh at least. Now I'm paranoid aswell though :worry:
I was hoping it might take longer for you to track this post down but now I'll have to move residence and change my identity!

Where would this race of people reside? — SethRy

These people live amongst us. They might be the 'elites', or even the moderately wealthy with just a couple of billion dollars. Who knows. Maybe they traverse to different dimensions, do a bit of interstellar travel here and there. The point is there must be people living on this planet right now who's level of knowledge and access to technology far exceeds that of everyone else. These people will have massive amounts of power and influence whether they choose to use it or not.

Considering that we’re rapidly making the world uninhabitable for ourselves, with mass extinctions of species, climate change, pollution, etc. we might conclude that if there’s a secret master race they’re working against us. Maybe they’re aliens terraforming the planet to their liking? — praxis

Very true, so maybe they aren't so far advanced after all or have alterior objectives as you suggest. What are all the rich people going to do when there's ecological collapse? Maybe this is why there's a push to get people to Mars.

The crux of my idea is that there are two distinct spacetimes (quantum and classical) made manifest by ontological space. These spacetimes exist 'here' in our ontological space but because they are different geometries they are, from a geometric perspective, two different spacetimes. — EnPassant

This idea of interactions between two spacetimes/ dimensions (classical and quantum) must carry some weight. It is the interaction between the continuous classical world and the timeless quantum world that holds reality together, without one or the other substance would dissolve into nothingness.

On the macroscopic scale, what we see and interact with is only a tiny fraction of what lies behind. If you look at a tree, you only see a few of the photons which have recently interacted with the tree. The vast majority of stuff which makes up the tree exists in a seperate quantum dimension which we can only probe into. Yet it is these interactions which holds the substance of the tree together. With small electromagnetic force interactions constantly tugging and pulling through all the branches, the quantum fuzz of the tree is brought into the classical world.

For the white race globalism is disastrous, it will disappears as the Neanderthals disappeared — Geo

Certain aspects of unchecked globalism definitely do have obvious negative implications for the human race as a whole - human trafficking, money laundering, extremism, toxic waste disposal, centralised power …

Although I'm not sure if I would classify 'whiteness' as a race, skin colour depends more on latitude ie distance from the equator. Example, Scandinavians and Russians could be classified as predominantly white but of different race with different physical traits and cultures.

In the advent of globalism then the difference between all cultures would become less over time. People would become more homogonised so that colours of skin might become less pronounced, but more importantly people's ways of thinking and creativity also become more homogenised. This might make the human race as a whole less resilient to external pressures, such as climate change and biodiversity collapse.

The case with Neanderthals was that they were likely outcompeted and less adaptable than Homeosapiens. Together with the onset of a colder climate they died out even though their heavier and stronger bodies would have been more resilient to cold weather. This is likely because they were thought to have travelled less and lived in smaller networks so resources would have become harder to obtain.

Maybe if progress stall its not bad. Progress gives more and more opportunities for humanity to destroy this world — Geo

Habitat loss, species extinctions, and over population are large threats to this world. If humanity were to stall evolutionary at this point, yet carry on expanding in numbers, then I think it is likely that we will have a catastrophic loss of biodiversity to other species on the planet. This is already happening, we are now entering the sixth mass extinction of life on Earth. It leaves humans in a perilous state because the plants we rely on for food and medicine are more susceptible to disease, genetic loss, lack of pollination through insect decline, and other unforeseen events. Food shortages in itself would likely lead to world wars.

I think world peace can be achieved if humans wisely use the intellect and ability for social cohesion we have been gifted; promote different cultures and ways of life, allow free trade and open communication. Also actually address the issues of inequality, world poverty, education and general dumbing down of the population by centralised elitist governing and corporate powers . This can be achieved by moving away from all forms of centralised systems. It seems clear that small, independent and democratic nations who are allowed to govern themselves without external pressures can thrive through competition and the development of tailored technologies.

This would mean abolishing the power of the superpowers through nuclear disarmament, monetary reform, prosecutions for violations of international law (invasions under false pretences - for example, Iraq/ Libya/ Afghanistan …), dissolution of IMF and forgiveness of debts owing… Unfortunately these things are only possible if small independent nations all act as one so its a bit of a conundrum in that we need dissolution of centralised power but the way to achieve that involves an overseeing body - an 'all seeing eye' - to enforce it.

Culture is the identity of the nation. Identity is always a conflict of interest. Only in a world where all people are the same, there will be fewer conflicts — Geo

That's correct, its where people have differences there is the possibility for conflict to arise. But if everyone was the same, like clones, then I think human progress would stall, people would be like zombies not questioning anything. I feel this would lead to human civilization becoming weak without any resilience to external pressures.

For Example Globalism is it good or bad? — Geo

If globalism was allowed to run its natural course then all countries would essentially merge into being one. National identities would slowly be eroded until human civilization would become a mononculture. By maintaining a balance between disparate groups there will always be vibrance and the emergence of new cultures/ ideas/ ways of living.

Unfortunately, in so far as you are dealing with people who do not have the will to improve, are psychologically exhausted, have lost hope, are caught in the grips of pessimism and self-pity, etc etc... I don't think the solution is so simple. You would first have to overcome all of these grounding causes for the obesity before you can instil in them the will to take the actions which you mention will rightly improve their situation. — Mr Phil O'Sophy

Hi Phil 'O Sophy,

Thanks for your input. I think for people who do genuinely feel like they have a lost the will to self improve have already won half the battle. At least they can acknowledge there is a problem which needs to be addressed; it must be an horrendous realisation but the first part of treatment through meditation would be to accept these feelings and allow them to flow. It is when this energy is blocked that it manifests itself within the body.

I think for most obese, and especially overweight people, there is at first denial. The human form naturally fluctuates and self awareness is often distorted so that it is easy for the mind to make excuses - 'they'll go on a diet after Christmas/ they'll start an exercise next week ...'. I've seen this mind set go on in recurring cycles for decades for some people. The mind is incredibly good at deluding itself. The first priority above all else should be to cure this disease, unfortunately most people prioritise almost anything else including work/ family/ friends/ hobbies/ interests than fully accepting the extent of the problem. It is this which allows the disease to grow and become stronger to the detriment of the patient.

You may have noticed that I, and others with training in the math of relativity and quantum, have a strong tendency to avoid any interpretation at all. And, many professionals would hear "metaphysical time" and react immediately that the conversation is meaningless. — boethius

Hi Boethius,

You make some interesting points. I suppose the whole point of philosophising is that one seeks to understand the underlying reality, gain insight or interpretation which could lead to leaps of judgement so that the maths can be developed or experiments can be devised which would prove/ disprove new theories about reality. I feel we're only just beginning to scratch the surface of what science can reveal about this universe. From general and special relativity through to QED, these theories are incredibly accurate and powerful and I'm sure they will be built on in the future. Maybe the whole point is we will never fully understand concepts such as consciousness but I'm certain we will continue to unravel the mysteries about the nature of reality.

Take inertial mass and gravitational mass. Experimentally these have found to be identical although there is nothing to indicate mathematically that they need to be. However it seems intuitive to me that they should be the same. An object accelerating through space is equivalent to a large body deforming spacetime. Does this mean that acceleration also causes spacetime to deform?

Liwewise quantum behaviour seems somehow intuitive - we now have a limit to how small particles/ energy can become. Things seem to jump about and exhibit non-local behavior because they are discrete, quantum properties can only be ascertained by disturbing/ interacting with a particle, time as we know it fizzles out into a blur of nothingness.

Mathematically we can make predictions about experiments and know that this form of logic works 'in the real world'. However I believe further that mathematics, logic, and consciousness forms part of the real world, they are intimately connected - mind/ reality are one much like energy/ matter are one. There is no reason to believe that the universe should be understandable, or describable, or even coherent - but mathematics has proven that we can gain insight into the universe we are a part of.

What's even crazier than perfectly sensible questions being eliminated in principle from our theories (unlike in Newtonian physics where universal time goes forward moment by moment and any process will be wholly determined by probing smaller processes that make it up), is that our two theories are not mathematically compatible. — boethius

There is a duality between Relativity and QED where it seems there is an impasse. However we know they are both solid theories, maybe it is impossible to reconcile these two perspectives and progress is to encompass both. Quantum experiments show that two realities exist in confluence - timebound, discrete particles and timeless, non-local wavefunctions.

There is no functional definition of time from the photon's entangled state. No clock can be built to tell us this event happened simultaneously; we can only make a clock that records the time of experiments; so in this case when the two particles were observed (which due to relativity has no absolute definition of simultaneous already), and from there we can note a correlation between the results of experiments of the entangled particles. — boethius

Hi Boethius,

Thanks for this, maybe we need to define (or take as assumption) that the functional definition of time for an entangled state, or indeed that of a waveform, is zero or instantaneous. This could offer insight into quantum phenomena such as observed in the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser experiment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser - where the choice to measure the interference of an entangled photon is made after its pair has already hit a detector.

Conventionally time is measured as progressing steadily forwards in a local frame, relativity then accurately describes different references frames. However, as you note, it is not possible to define two events as occurring simultaneously under this framework - an observer will perceive the timing of events dependent on his location.

An old analogy is for an observer moving away from a clock tower at the speed of light. He will always 'see' the same time, hence for a photon time is not progressing in the conventional sense. If an entangled pair of photons exist in a state of zero time then they would indeed be able to exhibit interference, or have opposite spin, when detected at any locations across the universe. These detections can then be assumed to be simultaneous under relativity so that the frame of reference for the entangled state would be precisely midway between the two observations. Could this explain quantum paradox?

Hi Devans,

I had this same thought regarding the timelessness of photons a few days ago.

Imagine a pair of entangled photons/ particles emitted in the early universe. One photon makes its way over billions of years through the entire universe to land at a detector at present day Earth. Its spin is then measured and so the spin of the entangled particle is then known.

However the entangled photon could have interacted with a particle billions of years in our past, or even billions of years (or more) into our future. Yet these two events happened simultaneously as viewed from the photons' entangled states.

A conclusion I could infer is that the whole universe is predetermined, macrospic time is therefore merely an illusion. It might be true to say that the whole universe lived out its entire existence instaneously through quantum intereractions. We are now merely witnessing the realtime effects of all these interactions play out...