Here's Wikipedia's definition of existential nihilism:

Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. The meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism.

I suppose somebody might think I was a nihilist because I have, on a number of occasions, said that "the universe is meaningless and does not provide us with meaning". The universe is meaningless, it can't give us meaning. We can impose meaning on our world, in our lives -- or on the entire universe for that matter. We are meaning makers. We are where meaning comes from. A theistic believer holds that God provides meaning, but if one is not a theist, and not a nihilist, one has to provide meaning.

We have gone so far as to actually create God, and describe God as the Creator of the Universe and all things in it. This isn't merely colossal chutzpah on our part; it's our greatest task -- to find ways of imposing meaning on the cosmos, on down to our own lives.

So, I don't think that life is meaningless. A consequence of failing to maintain meaning is anomie: "Anomie is a "condition in which society provides little moral guidance to individuals". It is the breakdown of social bonds between an individual and the community, e.g., under unruly scenarios resulting in fragmentation of social identity and rejection of self-regulatory values. It was popularized by French sociologist Émile Durkheim."

I suppose many people feel nihilistic at times: Life just seems bleak, meaningless, flat, uninhabited. It's a bad feeling. No, I don't think it's a mental illness, though depressed people feel pretty bleak at times. It's a philosophical illness, something that decreases one's fitness to live in this world. I understand that people become deeply disenchanted with life, and then it looks like ashes. It's always in our best interest to resist nihilism, and the anomie that it can engender.

Nihilism is tiresome. What makes you think I am not against nihilism?

If you had no more memories there would be nothing to regret. — René Descartes

True, of course. Nothing to regret, nothing to be happy about. And that is my belief: death is nothingness.

Babies, especially lobotomized babies, would have a rather nebbishy time of it, but by another sign of God's skimpy mercy, infants would only spend a year in this limbo. Nothing to think about, and nothing to think with.

The greatest sign of God's larger mercy is that non-human animals are spared all this rococo rigamarole. they just drop dead and that is that. Which, btw, is what I believe happens to our animal species: We just cease and desist and that's it. There are no second acts in America or in eternity.

allegorically — Michael Ossipoff

I've never committed allegory -- I swear!

It doesn't need "to sense a future". All that needs to happen is arousal, insertion, ejaculation, sperm meets egg, egg turns into offspring, voila: reproduction. A sense of some future is irrelevant. Egg hatches, pup is born, mama and papa feed it, it gets big, arousal, insertion, ejaculation, sperm meets egg, egg turns into offspring, rinse and repeat.

Is the 17 year old girl getting screwed silly by the idiot bastard's son§ thinking about the future? Not at the moment. Not until she's unmistakably pregnant. Then what? Dither dither, hither thither, can't afford an abortion; morning after pill is 4 months too late. Looks like reproduction is sliding down the chute.

Future? What future?
Ob-la di, ob-la-da, life goes on, bra
La-la, la-la life goes on.

No need for future sense.

§ Frank Zappa lyrics proceed along the lines of...

The idiot bastard son:

BTW, it's "dead ringer" not "dead wringer". What is a dead ringer?

A ringer is a horse substituted for another of similar appearance in order to defraud the bookies. This word originated in the US horse-racing fraternity at the end of the 19th century. The word is defined for us in a copy of the Manitoba Free Press from October 1882:

The "dead" part means exact. Don't ask me way, but like "dead center" -- or precisely in the center. On the other hand, "dead line" has always had more ambiguous and ominous meanings, as in "if your toes aren't on the line by 5:00 pm, you'll be dead". In other words, late = dead. But that isn't what it means in dead ringer. It intensifies "ringer" which is a duplicate; in other words, an exact duplicate, even though that is redundant, because a duplicate is presumably exact, or we would call it similar. If one horse was all white and its ringer had a black star on it's forehead, or a short black ankle, that would not be a very exact duplicate.

I will be spending a lot of time during my 1000 year stint mulling over matters like these.

This title is great, lmao — MindForged

Glad you liked it.



Oh definitely, you are a dead wringer / dead ringer for the 1000 year post-mortem meditation milieu. You're well read, you know programming languages (you can code for a couple of centuries), you have lots of opinions to sharpen, and so on. You are somewhat deficient in sexual experiences, however. At some point before the flying fickle finger of fate finds you, and while you are still able, you should spend a couple of weeks in a non-stop orgy. You should also come to the United States for a couple of years so that you can be totally appalled and amazed by American culture. That will give you a lot to chew on, too.

Christ, it was a joke! How much more vacuous did you want it?

Baloney is what I call the idea of disembodied minds floating around like brains in a swimming pool.

Bad memories are not good to have. Mistakes will happen; avoid the ones that you can. Politeness will produce more good memories than bad ones. If you spurn the day-old discount store cake, the purchaser might shove it in your face--literally -- might be a bad memory.

You won't have 1000 years of boredom if you stock up on things to think about, rethink, mull over, remember fondly, recite, etc.

You understand, I hope, that this thread IS a joke. It was posted in The Lounge.

But the bit about non-physically anchored minds plugs into the joke. There are all kinds of serious threads speculating about God, the soul, life after death, other universes... all topics about which we know nothing and about which we probably should not be chattering away about as if they were certainties.

But it is also true, and in line with having a good life that is worth living, that we should seek out good, rich experiences. Of course: sometimes we have to clean the oven, rake up all the leaves in the yard, mow the grass, do laundry, and other such boring jobs--never mind the brightly lit hells of the modern office park. But when we can, we should opt for better.

A lot of the time when I was working and dealing with life as we know it, I had neither the time nor the energy to opt for much of anything. Then when I retired, I found I finally had the time to read more books, listen to more music, enjoy time passing.

Happy Birthday. Which number was it? Chocolate cake?

According to your principal I should stuff my mouth with as much cake as possible so that I can remember — René Descartes

It would depend on how good the cake was. If it was a day old discount store cake, no -- just taste it for politeness sake. If it was a really good cake, then eat more. But nausea isn't something you'll want to have a lot of memories of, and there are enough nauseating people, places, and things for one to encounter, so just don't over do it.

I guess I'll take this opportunity to smoke a cigarette... — Noble Dust

Good idea. Enjoy it, because you won't be able to smoke in the near total vacuum of space. How much do your cigarettes cost? Apparently you have been forced to smoke outside. Too bad. I always enjoyed writing and smoking in the house. But that was... 23 years ago.

There are people who believe the mind is a non-physical thing, not really coextensive with the brain. They think the mind is immaterial. If the mind is immaterial, then it could go on existing after death. And if it did go on existing after death, with the anchoring organism rotting in the ground, it would presumably be without any means for adding new information. Thus, it would be stuck with whatever it had on hand when the associated organism dropped dead.

you don't know who I am — Noble Dust

René has a conversational relationship with god, so maybe he does know who you are. And grayscale is good.

You can talk to God and get away with it, but it is decidedly more worrisome when God starts talking to you.

How do you know it was God? You might have been hallucinating.

And on whose authority are you basing this absurd claim?

So this thread is a joke? — Noble Dust

Bell rings in the lounge. Edit for clarity for Noble Dust: Ding!

I'm pretty sure that in the conventional heaven which people imagine, there are no gonads or orifices of excretion. White clouds, white robes, white feathers, harps, trumpets... God wouldn't want us getting feces, urine, and other excretions all over everything. And we would, because that's what happens without proper bathrooms, and I just don't see toilets and plumbing in heaven. Which doesn't exist, anyway.

The disembodied mind operates for 1000 years starting with the moment of death -- no options on that. It's 1000 years whether you like it or not. Then poof! You finally disappear, forever. After 1000 years, you'll be grateful for nothingness.

You're not paying attention. There is no heaven, as well as no media outlets or bookstores, fine restaurants, or sex organs. That's why you need to store up as many memories as you can now. Have you read Thackeray? Dostoyevsky? Are you having as much sex as possible so that you will have as many happy memories as possible? Are you eating up-market and better tasting hot dogs?

Which 1000 years? — Noble Dust

What do you mean, "which 1000 years"? I've only mentioned 1 millennial stretch.

Of course I have your best interests at heart, so I improve the quality of my prose to strew as few stumbling blocks in your path as possible.

You just have to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.

A sense of humor will help you pass the time during those 1000 years.

Bullshit he says. It's no more unsensible than other schemes of what happens after one dies. You, for instance, will be among the last to be bored, since you have a well stuffed mind, or at least it looks like that at a distance.

Nonsense. It's a prudent investment in content.

Maybe you misunderstood. Read "shove" as "shovel"; shovel in as much as you can. The separate etymologies of shove and shovel is one of those things you can think about after death.

Nothing happened to it. What's pessimistic about "eat, drink, be merry, and learn as much as you can while you have the opportunity, lest your life after death be the worst possible boring drag imaginable"?

You should be working on Tolstoy. Trollope, or an unabridged dictionary right now. Just shove it in while you still have time!!!

Of course. If I wasn't agéd I would have skipped over old Lowell in a heartbeat.

Things have changed a lot since 1949. There are now good air, rail and highway connections to Tibet from the east coast of China, the better to dominate the territory. They probably aren't going over the mountains with donkeys, either. Helicopters these days.

So yes, John Oliver would be much more accessible, though less there to access.

Do millennials know where Tibet is? Or what Tibet is? Maybe they think it is a gambling app.

Your video was livelier than mine. Funnier too. Perhaps, possibly, just slightly less factful.

Lowell Thomas used to do a 15 minute weeknight radio program on CBS Radio, back in the 1940s and 50s. I remember listening to him talk about Tibet in the '50s, many times. In the US the same period was dominated by McCarthy's virulent anti-homosexual and anti-communist campaigns (hard to tell which was more important to him from this distance).

Here is a film report he did on a trip to Lhasa in 1949. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjVN4M4l7sc.

The People's Republic of China engaged in a long suppression of the Tibetan people; in 1959 the Dalai Lama fled Tibet and has since lived in the Tibet community in India. Of course it should be self-governing; it isn't going to happen, I am afraid.

China is behaving the way the dominant regional or global powers always behave: they do what they believe they can get away with, all in their national best interests, of course. The Russians, the Soviets, the British, the Germans, the Austrians, the French, the Dutch, the Spanish and Portuguese, the Italians, the Turks, the Japanese, the Burmese, the Americans, etc. etc. etc. have all done the same thing, and most likely will all continue to do the same thing. I don't like it, but I am not sure how much effect people either in China, Tibet, or elsewhere in the world can do about it.

We've been going here for about 2 years+. The old forum that many of had belonged to had run for at least 10 years. You might want to look over the list of thread titles.

On the left side of the screen is "All Discussions". Click on that button, and the list of topics will come up, the most recent first. At the bottom of the page are page numbers of more topics. Feel free to chime in on an old topic. Doing so will bring the thread up to the top of the list where other people may also see it and join in.

Or start your own thread.

Welcome.

I recollect that the Germans had a dream a few years back. Their dream didn't turn out well either. Maybe nations should just avoid dreaming.

how many organisms do this — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I was responding only to the idea of "resources borrowed (or taken) from ecosystems". That's the basis of life. Of course, taking way too much, returning nothing, and wrecking the ecosystem is extremely stupid, and that's a specialty of our species. We do it because we can, and because we are unable to think. plan, and act for the long terms (beyond maybe 25 years or so). Sometimes we aren't able to think beyond the next 15 minutes.

I don't know what is troubling you, but your experiences would indicate that you should see a psychiatrist to get checked out. You might have a panic disorder, you might have ptsd, you might be bi-polar, or... maybe none of those things. Don't know, can't tell, not a doctor anyway... But you should definitely see a doctor.

Worried about drugs? A reasonable worry, but the things that are happening to you aren't good for your creativity either. Like I said, I don't know what is troubling you, but I've had enough experience with my own and other people's mental illnesses to know that medicine can feel better than feeling crazy.

Besides, you aren't going to be forced to take medicine, and you don't need to be hospitalized.

You might be able to control panic attacks with talk therapy, but you might also want to have a medicine you can take to head off attacks, something like Ativan or Xanax (both benzodiazepines, both good occasional drugs for intense anxiety).

Good luck with this, welcome to The Philosophy Forum, and stick around. You might find us better than a sleeping pill or a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Regardless, it seems that the fact remains that it is possible to go from working class to super-wealthy provided that you have a good product, and you know how to sell it — Agustino

I will grant that it is possible for a working class person with a very bright idea and drive to become a billionaire, and out of 7.3 billion people, a minuscule--no, microscopic number, less than 500, are able to do that. But then, so what? 500 out of 7 billion is hardly a groundswell of opportunity.

Any native-born American can become president of the United States, too. And how likely is that? Over the next 40 years, no more than 10 people can become president, and only 5 if they all serve two terms.

The rare exception to the rule doesn't collapse the rule, it just means that there are rare exceptions. If a black man becomes POTUS, or a woman, this means nothing for the chances of any given black person or woman becoming president.

What matters is if 250 million working class people in the United States can gain a reasonable share of the enormous amount of wealth they produce (labor creates all wealth) and can direct that wealth into uses which bring about a sustainable future. The rich and super rich have not done that. In deed, the rich and the super rich are the ones who have arranged for an unsustainable future for everybody.

Many of the rich people I've met are quite uneducated. — Agustino

I'm not surprised. The "If you're so rich, how come you're so stupid?" phenomenon.

having the right political connections — Agustino

Political and class connections has been shown to be a part of gaining access to capital, expertise.

Making sales. — Agustino

Granted. When the business is making a product or delivering a service, there follows the necessity of selling it, if you are going to succeed, whatever it is that you have to sell. If no one wants to buy what you are offering, then you're not going to succeed (at least through honest means). Most businesses fail because either no one likes what the company offers, the business doesn't find its customers, it's out-competed, or the Russian mafia blows up the store, office, warehouse, lab, what have you.

If lots of people like what you have to sell and buy it every now and then, you will do reasonably well, barring other business mistakes, which lay in wait. Like expanding too fast, running out of inventory, not changing the style of the clothes you make fast enough to keep up with style changes, etc. Or bad luck -- like an outbreak of food poisoning from your kitchen.

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to sell" they said sarcastically.

Are you sure those aren't space aliens? There appear to be antennas growing out of their heads, they have beards but also one breast -- all very suspicious. Green hair?

Presumably the American Dream is about more than the amount of lucre one has accumulated. Isn't it also about the freedom to think, speak, and act politically; to go anywhere in the country without permission; to enjoy the great outdoors without running into too many fences with NO TRESPASSING signs; to pursue the kind of life one wants to pursue, or at least try; free libraries, health, education, and welfare for all; a wide assortment of religious, social, and political views not just tolerated but expected... ???

Maybe all that is utopian.

These statements are false — Agustino

No, not false. Maybe it is true in the post-socialist wonderland where you live, that every schoolboy becomes rich by a frenzy of hard labor and inspiration IF he wants to. It isn't true in the United States.

You are right that billionaires are made, not born. You are wrong that the doors to fabulous wealth are wide open. There are certain entry level requirements that working people (most of the population) lack: the habits of middle class parents; a solid education starting in primary school and ending in one of the top ranked universities; contacts among successful, wealthy people; access to investment capital, and so on.

You are wrong about what 99% of the population sharing 1% of the wealth means: an exceedingly small share of a comparatively tiny pie. For many Americans it doesn't mean the abject poverty of the sort that the poorest decile experience; it doesn't mean the deprivation of the poorest third, even. But for even the middle 4 deciles of the 99%, it means poorer housing, less education, inadequate welfare, poorer outcomes all round. Only for the 2 richest deciles of the 99% is there better education, secure finances, good healthcare, adequately funded retirement, regular travel, and so forth.

You are wrong about the ferocity with which the labor movement has been suppressed. The suppression of organized labor has had a profound effect on American life, especially in the last 50 years. In an earlier period, labor was suppressed with goon squads and clubs. These days it is done through law and propaganda, backed up by the power of the state which has proven more effective.

You are probably not aware that wealthy conservatives have resented the existence of Social Security, Unemployment Compensation, Medicare (for the retired and disabled), Medicaid (for the indigent), welfare programs, etc. and have periodically sought to undo these programs ever since they were started, in some cases, 88 years ago.