We can read religious texts as having metaphors, allegories, parables, poetry, creative storytelling/speculation, (apparent) fantastic truth claims, everyday chit-chat, rumors and hearsay, references to historical events and real places, folklore, myths, narratives adapted from (other) myths, rules/commands, ..., perhaps authored by and for people of their times and places (geo-historical context).

So, maybe coherence is not really to be expected (unlike rigorous philosophical texts). Passages are often ambiguous or vague enough to allow for any number of readings.

In that respect, it is then up to readers to extract lessons, wisdom, value, etc.

I'm guessing moderate religious readers often have sentiments along those lines, though different from what you hear in temples, churches, mosques, synagogues, whatever clubs, by altars, from tv evangelists, adhan announced by muezzin from minarets. I've also come across a lot of not-so-moderate readers.

Some such texts have become trendsetters and embedded as cultural traditions. Someone, can't remember who, said something like "History is our greatest teacher". Too much adherence/belief or too much denying is dogmatism alike?

Theism isn't just one thing. The elaborate religions/faiths have those sumptuous texts, rituals, commands/rules, fate designations, gods/God being various narrated (individuated) characters, adherents claiming divine intervention/participation, with distinct public aspects, mutual incompatibilities, etc. At first, these could be contrasted by some spiritual traditions. Further on, they could be contrasted by unassuming nondescript deism, panpsychism, Platonism, simulation / virtual world hypotheses, Zhuangzian butterflies, or even just "the unknown", heading firmly into metaphysics. Probably not hard to find people leaning towards atheism with respect to the elaborate religions, and agnosticism (or apathy for that matter) towards whatever in the latter categories. Anyway, without making the distinction, things like dogmatism (along with a/theism, agnosticism) become muddled.

Russia's Lavrov accuses West of 'supporting genocide' in Ukraine
^{— Gareth Jones · Reuters · May 30, 2023}

Give it up, Lavrov. Still not working. What will the Kenyans take away?

Russia's Lavrov says Kremlin drone incident was 'hostile act'
^{— Mark Trevelyan · Reuters · May 5, 2023}
Ukraine minister in 'disbelief' at closed Kyiv bomb shelters
^{— Dan Peleschuk, Nick Macfie · Reuters · Jun 4, 2023}

Maybe Lavrov comes from a parallel universe (cf Bondarev). A bit comedic if not for the :fire:.

, the Ukrainians want the invaders to leave them alone, the Kremlin wants, well, hard to tell exactly, but officially no Nazis, no NATO.
Whatever the Kremlin wants, is not likely to be compatible with what the defenders want. By the way, from memory, they mentioned a demilitarised Ukraine some time in the past.
The UN voted a few times prior, but the suggestion of peacekeepers and votes could depart some from that, or at least perhaps bring more of what the parties want out in the open.
Worthwhile? Try? Waste of time? Futile?

Indonesia proposes demilitarised zone, UN referendum for Ukraine peace plan
^{— Kanupriya Kapoor, Olena Harmash, Gerry Doyle, David Holmes · Reuters · Jun 3, 2023}

• demilitarised zone separating currently held positions by 15 km
• UN peacekeeping force in zone
• cessation of hostilities
• UN referendum "to ascertain objectively the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants of the various disputed areas" —Subianto

Somewhat similar to earlier suggestions.
Objectively ascertaining majority wishes could be difficult, because a number of Russian actors could have entered the areas posing as Ukrainians whenever told so by who/whatever downstream from the Kremlin, thereby "polluting" any votes; this sort of thing would have to be figured out to some reasonable extent.
I'd suggest UN peacekeepers in Donbas and Crimea (also ensuring the airways weren't one-sided), then trying to set up genuine votes.
Anyway, it's technically doable; best done before hatred of the other side settles more severely.

Any takers hereabouts?

if the Nazis are Christian, then — unenlightened

1939 Germans were both, though not because one implies the other.
1929 Fascist Italy made Catholicism the State religion; in 1938 they made some moves against Jews, Evangelicals, Pentecostals.

, sure, if the Catholic and Protestant organizations couldn't be reined in, then they might have faced disassembly of sorts; I guess we'll never know.
That part isn't about non/theism, it's power politics.
Authoritarians use larger/influential organizations or them' begone.
(We can speculate on religion in the area if the Nazis hadn't lost; I'm guessing (pure conjecture on my part) that there'd have been some moves toward occultism or Germanic paganism of sorts.)
The earlier point, however, was that Nazi anti-semitism didn't appear out of the blue, but was part of a larger (sub)culture/tradition that Luther also was part of, another proactive part.
An established precedence in 1939's Nazi + Christian Germany.

, I don't think Hitler could be called a Christian soldier, more like an opportunist occultist or something.
Nazi racism and the Holocaust rode in on (age-old) existing anti-semitism, adding another level of horror.
Also keep in mind, some 95% of Nazi Germany were Christians.

The Nazis didn't murder the Jews because of religious differences. A Jew who disclaimed his Judaism was no safer than a devout one.

Nazi Germany is a good example of a war that was not about religion. It was about ethnicity. — Hanover

There's a bit more history to this stuff.
The founder of Protestantism wrote On the Jews and Their Lies around 1543.
The Church of England also published a report in 2019 on the topic.
In a way, the Holocaust was part of a wretchedly long (sub)culture, an abominable "tradition", that you could hope ended, though it doesn't quite seem like it. :/

What's up in Idaho?

Committee introduces bill on prohibiting ‘vaccine materials’ in food
^{— Ruth Brown · Idaho Reports · Jan 24, 2023}

Idaho bill would criminalize giving an mRNA vaccine: ‘It feels like an attack on our profession’
^{— Don Sapatkin · Managed Healthcare Executive · Mar 27, 2023}

Survey shows Idaho’s maternal health doctors are leaving the state, or soon will
^{— McKay Cunningham · Idaho Capital Sun · Apr 7, 2023}

, so, with definitions of meters, miles, stadia, whichever, we can get it wrong. It's not about our definitions, it's about a distance that we may or may not estimate with whatever (arbitrary) definitions/conventions. There is something to get wrong. Seems like you were responding to something else.

Distance to the Moon doesn't begin to exist because someone makes an estimate, rather it can be estimated because it exists. — May 27, 2023

That's the direction of existential dependency. — May 28, 2023

, then how come we sometimes get it wrong? We can get estimates wrong. (Some more than others.) Doesn't make sense for inventions. That's the direction of existential dependency.

You seem to be wrong here jorndoe. Miles, km, etc., all those terms you used to express the distance refer to something invented, not discovered. It seems you have this backward, distance is invented not discovered. — Metaphysician Undercover

↑ backwards

Distance to the Moon doesn't begin to exist because someone makes an estimate, rather it can be estimated because it exists.

Reports from the streets...

‘Get out’: Influx of Russians to Georgia stokes old enmities
^{— Christian Edwards, Niamh Kennedy, Eve Brennan, Rhea Mogul, Sophie Tanno, Hannah Ritchie, Katya Krebs · CNN · May 26, 2023}

If I was Georgian, I would also want to be a part of the European Union. The old generation is all about how things used to be. The young generation are about how things could be. They’re like, ‘we want to be part of the European Union – Russians, don’t f*** this up for us.’ [...] I fear that Georgia is a little bit too similar to Russia. I’m afraid it could go either way: It could get better and move forward to the European Union. Or it could get worse and become like Belarus. I really hope that won’t happen. — Daria Polkina (27, Muscovite)

A couple of weeks earlier...

Pro-war nationalists say they are entering Russian politics to counter turmoil
^{— Guy Faulconbridge, Andrew Osborn · Reuters · May 12, 2023}

Girkin told reporters that it was clear that the battle for the "post-Putin" era had already begun inside the Russian elite.

There will be no compromise: war will end with the Russian flag over Kyiv or the defeat of Russia with the aim of its partial occupation, its disarming and its desovereignisation. — Igor Girkin

Mitrokhin opines...

Where Are Russia’s Nationalists in the War Against Ukraine?
^{— Nikolay Mitrokhin · Carnegie · Mar 7, 2023}

those of us who think it was the West's fault for Russian aggression — Manuel

The NATO-phobia? It's just bullshit, an excuse. Russia, the largest country in the world, with, say, 140 million people, needs to be enlarged with a fourth or fifth of Ukraine or it's doomed for destruction? :grin: If they manage to assimilate a fifth of Ukraine, then their supposed NATO-phobia remains an excuse, it's open-ended like that. The Nazi thing? Kyiv isn't a Nazi regime. If anything, Putin's Russia has regressed markedly. And the Ukrainians said "No", "Go away", "Get bent", like the UN, repeatedly. Putin's team knows already, so now and then they whine about, well, more or less whole continents. And the US of course (but not China). Anyway, nothing new here, it's been set out already. But, maybe they'll get away with the land grab. If they do, a pertinent question remains: then what?

, well, you have discussion-worthy things to air on all of those, yes? I suppose, to the extent they're related, you could keep it in one fresh post? Hit it! :smile:

Distance between Moon and Earth is in our heads...? :chin: — jorndoe

If you know the distance between here and earth, it's in your head. I don't, so it's not in my head. Of course distance is something in human heads, it's a value, something measured. There is no value without the measurement. — Metaphysician Undercover

Hm? :brow: Well, if you ask how far away the Moon is, someone might variously say "No clue", "Between 200,000 and 300,000 miles", "The average distance between Earth's and the Moon's centers of gravity is about 360,000 km, increasing about 4 cm a year, and Earth's rotation slowing down accordingly", (translated) Hipparchus said about 400,000 km, ... Maybe no one will respond, doesn't really matter much. It's beliefs + justifications. None of which has any particular bearing on the Moon being distanced, and that getting there is no walk in the park. Whatever distance is discovered, not invented, and not existentially dependent on whatever human discoverers' heads. :shrug:

"Space" is conceptual, or intuitive, as a tool of representation, it really has no place outside of the mind. — Metaphysician Undercover

Distance between Moon and Earth is in our heads...? :chin:

Climate scientists flee Twitter as hostility surges
^{— AFP via Al Jazeera · May 24, 2023}

Someone's busy.

,

↪yebiga, whip up a new post on that. :up: Discussion-worthy, yes? — May 18, 2023

He gets around.

G7 summit: Zelensky accuses some Arab leaders of 'blind eye' to war ahead of Japan trip
^{— Tessa Wong, James Gregory · BBC · May 19, 2023}

Zelensky showcases global leadership in G7, Arab League visits - analysis
^{— Seth J Frantzman · The Jerusalem Post · May 20, 2023}

Ukraine already has overwhelming support worldwide (humanitarian, arms, the UN), but maybe his efforts prove fruitful.


Elsewhere... Map of battles over time. Your mileage may vary. Reportedly, their automated data source usage/assessment is a work in progress

Darn universe.

Gravitational lens gives us a third estimate of the Universe’s expansion
^{— John Timmer · Ars Technica · May 12, 2023}

With such grand scales, uncertainties should be expected, though.
It's not like measuring the front door for replacement.

:up: Seems odd (to me) that people keep missing the obvious

Undoubtedly, democracy isn't all that good. However, the rest are worse. — paraphrasing whoever it was

, whip up a new post on that. :up: Discussion-worthy, yes?

Wagner chief offered to give Russian troop locations to Ukraine, leak says
^{— Shane Harris, Isabelle Khurshudyan, Mary Ilyushina · The Washington Post · May 14, 2023}

Yes of course I can confirm this information, we have nothing to hide from the foreign special services. Budanov and I are still in Africa. — Prigozhin

Wagner head dismisses US paper report that he offered to betray Russian troop positions
^{— Brad Heath, Lincoln Feast, Kevin Liffey, Peter Graff · Reuters · May 14, 2023}

nonsense — Prigozhin

looks like the latest hoax — Peskov

He'd be playing a dangerous game. We'll see if he meets an "untimely" end. :) Teixeira is being prosecuted for stealing and leaking the (original) information; I assume it was that leak. Earlier ...

Ukraine says counterattacks effective near Bakhmut, after Wagner chief accuses Russian brigade of fleeing
^{— Julia Kesaieva, Tim Lister, Olga Voitovych, Vasco Cotovio, Katharina Krebs, Nic Robertson, AnneClaire Stapleton, Josh Pennington · CNN · May 11, 2023}

72nd brigade f***ed up three square kilometers today, on which I had about 500 people killed. Because it was a strategic bridgehead. They just ran the hell out of there.
Instead of fighting, we have intrigues spinning all the time. We have a ministry of intrigue instead of a Ministry of Defense. That’s why we have an army running. — Prigozhin

Monism is an odd word in a way, ambiguous by itself. Not contrary to parallel universes, though.

Say, relativity will have spacetime being one whole, if you will, yet with dual aspects, space and time (perhaps more, depending). And, on a simplistic view, energy and mass relate by a constant factor, E=mc².

On another angle, I suppose Princess Elisabeth of the Palatinate and parsimony together suggest monism. After all, what we learn is all connected/related in one way or other, a kind of unity of the reality we know, or (non-hierarchical) holistic "whole" maybe. By that account, the numinous "wholly other" doesn't seem reachable, but an idea alone.

If that makes any sense.

Isn't skepticism more of an epistemic matter (like justification) than of truth?
I doubt (pun) anyone wouldn't value truth one way or other; that seems wrong, if not absurd.
Anyway, radical skepticism seems mostly an intellectual exercise, that people then move past.

Should we put this to the vote? :)

Suppose someone offered you $500 for parading whatever crap around for a few hours. More? $5000? (What?) However it was imparted (as if a prank? part of a movie? for real?) and payment arrangement was made. Perhaps some known local broker was involved (shady or not), say, last part of the payment to be given by the broker upon being shown appropriate photos/footage. I'm sure something's arrangeable. Easy money.

Would you? — May 8, 2023

Might not be worth it. Who knows how real/honest people would be. I'll just note that I'm confident some would. I.e. some would participate in spreading bullshit/propaganda.

, I was thinking of this Tarskian definition, defining finite, then infinite from that...

S is a set

℘(S) is the set of all subsets of S including ∅ and S itself
- the power set, Weierstraß, Cantor

F ⊆ ℘(S) is a family of subsets of S

m ∈ F is a minimal element of F ⇔ ∀ x ∈ F [ x ⊄ m ]
- no smaller subset

M(F) = { m ∈ F | x ∈ F ⇒ x ⊄ m }
- the set of minimal elements

S is finite ⇔ ∀ F ⊆ ℘(S) [ F ≠ ∅ ⇒ M(F) ≠ ∅ ]
- a set is finite if and only if every non-empty family of its subsets has a minimal element, Tarski

S is infinite ⇔ S is not finite

I'm guessing that's what you had in mind also. (?)

Anyway, didn't mean to distract the regress, ouroboros, etc discussion.

Mathematics has developed a fair understanding of ∞. But ∞ can be a few different things. Cantor (ℵ cardinals) showed that there are infinite different infinites, no less. So, in a concise context, ∞ is ambiguous. The rules of the natural numbers, N (or the real numbers, R) don't apply to ∞s. That's what mathematics taught us.

Dedekind's definition of infinite:

• a set is infinite if and only if there is a bijection between the set and a proper subset of the set
• |S| = ∞ ⇔ ∃ ƒ (bijection): S → T ⊂ S

The even numbers is a proper subset of the naturals, and there's a one-to-one mapping between them, hence the naturals is infinite. Might also be what you wrote, . Also related to equinumerosity.

Tarski came up with another concise definition that can be shown identical to Dedekind's.

, thanks for the comments.
Cognitive biases can easily be part thereof.
The argumentative aspect (and recognizing it) was more my aim here.

CNN reports on the ground ...

Russian forces lash out indiscriminately as Ukraine increases military pressure on frontline towns
^{— Nick Paton Walsh, Natalie Gallón, Kosta Gak, Peter Rudden, Olga Voitovych · CNN · May 8, 2023}

We saw them, as they leave a trail in the sky. We had to stand near the basement because they launched guided bombs. There’s no particular time of day or place for the strikes. — Dmytro Haydar in Orikhiv

Weird. Maybe they have plenty of spare bombs? Something else is going on? Way back when there was talk of a strategy of clearing large strips of land for easier monitoring, then continuously heavily blasting anything dangerous-looking entering. Doesn't look like that here though. Who knows.

, I wonder, how many would say yes/no, and at what $amount (and doing what). Then there are those on more regular payrolls. The full range of spreading propaganda is broad, not always effective.


As an aside, The Americans (IMDb, Wikipedia) is one of those spy shows, collecting intelligence, recruiting, exploiting the vulnerable, seduction/sex, "role-playing", blackmail, assassination, ..., cold war, USSR versus USA, ... Not quite what I'd call realistic through and through, but sort of entertaining.

Suppose someone offered you $500 for parading whatever crap around for a few hours. More? $5000? (What?) However it was imparted (as if a prank? part of a movie? for real?) and payment arrangement was made. Perhaps some known local broker was involved (shady or not), say, last part of the payment to be given by the broker upon being shown appropriate photos/footage. I'm sure something's arrangeable. Easy money.

Would you?


I'm sure some will revel in some of what these folks have to say. :) In chronological order...

The intoxication of war
^{— Chris Hedges · Salon · May 7, 2023}

Focus on the war, not just the battles
^{— James M Dubik · The Hill · May 8, 2023}

Hedges is an award-winning journalist (US); Dubik is a retired lieutenant general and professor (US). Note, the former article is sort of peripherally about the present war; the latter is directly about the war.

, Robert Francis Kennedy Junior is an idiot with a cause, a category or two (or three) below his uncle.
What's up with these mad

elected officials like the Frump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Wendy Rogers, Ted Cruz, ... — Jan 27, 2023

in the US anyway?
Bernie at least comes through as a better choice of a representative (of course labeled an evil commie), and I'm sure there must be many others, regardless of party, but then those...people rise and the circus comes to town.

EDIT

Wasn't intended to discredit JFK. Englitch being my 2nd language shows.

, it was about another post of yours. You can check via the ↪boethius links.

From the looks of it, the east is where the mercs are sent to die. Only need (a less expendable) regular army to ("volunteer" locals to) dig trenches elsewhere anyway.

I find the thoroughly patronizing attitude towards the Ukrainians...nevermind. They ain't fucking children.


, nice story, sort of. I suppose you'd have the UN being "war-mongers".

The US bombed Nord Stream for the simple fact that it didn't want European opinions getting in the way of war — Tzeentch

The US has been profiting immensely from blowing up the pipeline. — Tzeentch

Certitude? :brow: Many would like to know what happened regardless, but you claim to know.

Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh and [...] — Tzeentch

Why just him? :chin:

More evidence on the possibility of Russia being the culprit for Nordstream pipeline bombings.
Still the question is open... — ssu

Means :up: Opportunity :up: They were there (unlike Brian Williams)

Yep (@ssu), no particular proof. Some evidence, though.

@Tzeentch, your apparent certainty is (still) too thin. :down:

FYI (for the so inclined)
Origins of the Universe Conference 2018
has a few talks/presentations

, I think capitalism itself is more concerned with profit maximization. :)

π is a number (real), ∞ is not, hence they're not the same.
√2 and e are other examples of irrational real numbers, not ∞ either.
⅓ or 1/3 is a rational number that can't be expressed by a finite string in ordinary decimal notation.

If we suppose there are no circles (in nature), then there are some other shapes instead.
What shapes are possible (in nature) anyway? Are straight lines?

The 2020 documentary Kill Chain: The Cyber War on America's Elections (1½ h), featuring Harri Hursti, might be a worthwhile watch for the interested.
It's fairly tough on a number of parties, including Russia (so peripherally relevant here). Dis/mistrust vectors.
"Kill chain" refers to reconnaissance/observe/collect → target/analysis → weaponize → paralyze enemy → attack; Hursti thinks paralyzing is a crucial part, for example, to get whatever actors to panic.

As-is or a ruse or something? I guess we can only wait and see.

Prigozhin threatens to withdraw his mercenaries from Bakhmut if they lack ammunition
^{— New Voice of Ukraine via Yahoo · Apr 30, 2023}

Prigozhin threatened Shoigu to withdraw the militants from Bakhmut in case of lack of ammunition
^{— Larisa Golub · Apr 30, 2023}
(↑ translation via google)

(I could only find the original interview on Telegram.)

As far as Ukrainian strategy goes, it seems separating east and south (isolating the south) would be worthwhile, assuming it won't be reverted the next day. Then again, that may be what Russian strategists are expecting.