Some say that NATO threatens Russia, like sovereignty or even existential.
Some say that NATO defends members together against Russia, constraining free rein.

Might not be an "exclusive or"; we can consider both. I'm guessing markedly more people are interested in Russia not rolling over others, than rolling over Russia. For that matter, I'm guessing markedly more people are interested in good relations, building trust, reliability, trade, than posturing and hostilities. Putin + team could be a different matter.

Ukraine sought membership, now canceled, ☢ threats stand out. Sweden and Finland seek membership, now under way, the defense thing above. Unfair if you will; at least Ukrainians haven't been left on their own.

Peace would mean the attacker stops attacking (a defender can't just declare peace :grin:), i.e. Putin's Russia.

What might Zelenskyy capitulating entail, jus post bellum? We can only guess, check history, Russia, ... Meanwhile the Ukrainians are fighting :fire: for their sovereignty and such; a capitulation would not end fighting, but tune it down, and render it "illegal". Surrendering to evil is a wretched pseudo-peace, we have examples where this is worse than resistance/war, or where fighting is just. (I'll abstain from a quote-spam, Plato, Tacitus, Burke, Mill, Niemöller, Wiesel.) Peace ☮ is the goal, not bad peace.

So, ehh anyway, NATO, a threat to and/or defense against Putin's Russia?

_{• Ukraine | Médecins Sans Frontières medical and humanitarian aid; • List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War
• Antebellum South; • Auschwitz; • North Korea; • Uyghur; • Russia: Authorities launch witch-hunt to catch anyone sharing anti-war views
• World Development Report 2011 : Conflict, Security, and Development; • In the aftermath of Genocide: Guatemala’s failed reconciliation (worthwhile read)}


EDIT:
Should have mentioned that ...

Some say that NATO threatens Russia, like sovereignty or even existential. — jorndoe

... has been commented on quite a bit in the thread (re-repeats).

, seems like radicalism is gaining. :/

Indiana Senate narrowly passes near-total abortion ban (Jul 31, 2022)

Ukrainians should fight — boethius

I thought it was more that the Ukrainians will fight?
(not so much due to Zelenskyy, more that they're not inclined to hand the keys over to Russia)
Maybe that's just me.
I wouldn't mind them repelling the attacker-bomber, make the would-be land-grabber think twice, deter the invader. If they're going to fight? Heck yeah.

, OK, so you're using the verbiage differently. :)

(my bad, thought it was clear enough, but should have been more explicit)

, we have been, and are, modifying the atmosphere and the surface of the planet.
Laissez-faire, doing nothing, carries a risk.
Doing something (about CO₂, deforestation, pollution, nature/wildlife displacement, population growth, renewability, whatever) may or may not carry a different risk.
What's the worst that can happen? Say, if we start actually addressing climate change? Would that (oddly) be worse than doing nothing? Say, is a cleaner environment bad somehow? :brow:
That's an assessment we can't just ignore, regardless of what the deniers say, and they'd have us do nothing, thus ignoring a considerable risk.

, we have to consider the consequences either way, as well — the risks.
What might happen if we do nothing, and we were wrong?
What might happen if we do something, and we were wrong?
Arguing alone has the same consequences, the same risks, as doing nothing, and that's the way of the deniers.

Some have argued about perdurantism versus endurantism. Something seems to be missing here though, not convinced either will do.

After Mariupol had been bombed back to medieval ages, largely destroyed, thousands killed, I was a bit taken aback by Denis Pushilin's statements:

The task is to make Mariupol a resort city, which has not been possible before — TASS (May 9, 2022)

if Azovstal is not restored, then we will make a resort town — TASS (May 9, 2022)

Vacation-spot to-be for the rich and Russian oligarchs I guess, if he can find the funds? Looking around two/three months later, it seems accountability may be forgotten soon enough?

an actual argument that the mind is not an immaterial soul — Bartricks

Isn't there an existential claim hiding there that needs justification in its own right...? "immaterial soul"?

Probably read this or something similar here on the forum... Mind is to body much like what digestion is to stomach.

Some evidence pointing at the wet markets:

The Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was the early epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic (Jul 26, 2022)

The molecular epidemiology of multiple zoonotic origins of SARS-CoV-2 (Jul 26, 2022)

Jane Qiu, National Geographic, adds some perspective:

Debate deepens over Wuhan wet market's role in kickstarting the pandemic (Jul 27, 2022)

The plot thickens ...

The Enemy Within (Jul 28, 2022)

Five people with knowledge of the Kremlin’s preparations said war planners around President Vladimir Putin believed that, aided by these agents, Russia would require only a small military force and a few days to force Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s administration to quit, flee or capitulate.

Old modus operandi. Vague echoes in Transnistria and Donbas.

Mind isn't just one thing, it's more like an umbrella term for, say, thinking, feeling happy, perceiving red, experiencing, liking coffee, being self-aware, sentience, ... Maybe some such things are necessary or sufficient or something, to whatever degrees, to be (deemed) a mind?

Sonnenfeld and Tian writes:

Actually, the Russian Economy Is Imploding (Jul 22, 2022) - archived
The myth of Putin as world energy czar is running out of gas (Jul 25, 2022)

<sup>Myth 1: Russia can redirect its gas exports and sell to Asia in lieu of Europe.
Myth 2: Since oil is more fungible than gas, Putin can just sell more to Asia.
Myth 3: Russia is making up for lost Western businesses and imports by replacing them with imports from Asia.
Myth 4: Russian domestic consumption and consumer health remain strong.
Myth 5: Global businesses have not really pulled out of Russia, and business, capital, and talent flight from Russia are overstated.
Myth 6: Putin is running a budget surplus thanks to high energy prices.
Myth 7: Putin has hundreds of billions of dollars in rainy day funds, so the Kremlin’s finances are unlikely to be strained anytime soon.
Myth 8: The ruble is the world’s strongest-performing currency this year.
Myth 9: The implementation of sanctions and business retreats are now largely done, and no more economic pressure is needed.

Their language is somewhat loaded/slanted (suspect), perhaps a bit much for some readers. The article is argumentative. In line with their other reports. They've been involved with tracking organizations leaving and staying in Russia.</sup>

Effects of sanctions matter, and the article says they're effective. I'd like to know if/how regular people throughout Russia are impacted; if they can't get a new designer jacket, oh well; if they're starving to death, ...

Gyroscopes in space (Mar 19, 2016; 1m:18s)

↑ Demonstrating somewhat counter-intuitive gyroscope in zero gravity.

Wikipedia » Spacecraft bus (James Webb Space Telescope) » Gyroscopes
NASA » General Questions about Webb
NASA » Technical FAQ on a variety of mission issues, aspects and capabilities.

Earth Overshoot Day

Jul 28, 2022 (this year)

By the way, they do list some actions that can help.

Via The Financial Times ...

Captured nuclear plant doubles as launch pad for relentless Russian rocket attacks (Jul 22, 2022)

I suppose, as a strategy, this sort of works.
A camp by enriched uranium is risky to attack.
Would the occupiers threaten with (or otherwise perpetrate) a radioactive leak if their position was threatened? (Perhaps a bit like the Kuwaiti oil fires?)

So, Putin wants to set up a "vote" in the Kherson region. :D

^{Mar 31, 2022 Russia to stage independence referendum in Kherson region, says Ukraine
Apr 28, 2022 Occupied Ukrainian city fears sham Russian referendum plans
Jun 11, 2022 Russia Moving Forward With 'Referendum' Plans in Occupied Southern Ukraine, Says Kherson Mayor
Jun 29, 2022 Occupied Kherson Readying for Vote to Join Russia, Official Claims
Jul 21, 2022 In occupied south Ukraine, some fear a return to Soviet times under Russia}

The city of Kherson is Russia. — Kirill Stremousov (reported May 13, 2022)

We've decided - the people of Kherson region have decided - that we need to hold a referendum and vote to join the Russian Federation. — Kirill Stremousov (reported Jul 21, 2022)

In the rearview mirror, Putin (and team) handling votes and elections ain't exactly trustworthy.
Of course, the resemblance of democracy is supposed to render legitimacy — theatrics.
I'm guessing that's why Kyiv seems to focus on retaking the region, though they'd have to be careful, no atrocities, no surplus destruction, don't fuel Putin's propaganda machine, all that.

Goes further than sentience, doesn't it...?
Markedly further, as far as I can tell.

A hundred years ago, what were the chances that I'd be sitting here, typing this stuff now, on this device, hooked up to this network?
A million years ago?
Both seem vanishingly small, quickly converging on zero the longer ago.
(Unless we go by strict determinism I guess.)
Well, here I am, typing, at present a chance of 100% when expressed in those terms.

Extending the inquiry, what's the chance of our present world among all possible worlds?
Vanishingly small?
Whatever it might be, I'm not sure it's possible to make such an assessment.
The forum is going regardless, and about to be polluted with my comment, of all things. :)

By the way, I wouldn't restrict life to life as we know it.
In analogy, it's harder to imagine a (similarly) different sort of sentience, but I wouldn't restrict to sentience as we know it either.

, already mentioned I'm not going to keep repeating; now at page 297.
Replace "know" with: as consistent with evidence as those other hypotheses.
Actions over time, reports, statements (keeping bullshitting in mind), ..., a multipronged attempt to gain an overview, that includes NATO, Nazis, whatever, but lots more than just that, ...

trends, moves and shakes, ongoing developments, extending what's happened already, directions, [...], from Putin bullshitting the gullible to the Ukrainian "nobody" on the street shrugging and babbling (actually present on the ground)

(OK, I did a repeat/copy/paste :smile:)

What general category would evolution and creationism both fall into? — TiredThinker

Natural science and religious fiction, respectively. — 180 Proof

:up: in short

Across the two, creationists have been running an anti-science campaign for a long time:
The Imminent Demise of Evolution: The Longest Running Falsehood in Creationism
Fortunately, some have smartened up:
Panel Discussion on Mere Theistic Evolution - EPS 2019

, yeah, that proposal is unlikely to be accepted. But getting the parties to talk would be great. At least the Black Sea shipment thing seems to have gone through. External shipping lines are going to require guarantees/safety though, not an overnight thing.

, ignoring the usual unpleasantries and guesswork as to my mental state, the proposal items largely aren't new, and the article is from last month (Jun). Some of the items probably can't be taken off. Negotiations take (willingness) to compromise, at least to talk about it. Putin wants as much of Ukraine as he can get away with, Zelenskyy wants the Russian forces to leave, then whatever details.

, yeah, there are trends and reasons that Putin + team aren't looking for peace. Heck, the invasion was kicked off with an attack on the capital (among other moves).

No end in sight, and as long as Putin + team aren't interested, the hostilities will keep on going.

Putin sends in the cannon fodder. If they're shot at, then bombs away. Repeat. Don't forget a few extra bombs for good measure. — paraphrasing Volkov

Airstrikes kill more Ukrainians despite grain export deal (AP News; Jul 22, 2022)

Missile strikes hit key Ukrainian port day after grain deal (Euronews; Jul 23, 2022)

EDIT: added Euronews article

Putting aside the debate on debate and epistemology for a moment — Ennui Elucidator

Epistemic wandering off is subject to implosion, right down to subjective idealism or solipsism. And we could wander indefinitely down the diallelus. If we do (or entertain) that, then epistemic warrant evaporates — and evaporates equally to those claims of "supernatural magic". Dead end. Old story. Fortunately, though, such musings are roughly only found in philosophy departments; we already have strong epistemic standards to go by.

And those standards have more or less sent "supernatural witchcraft" packing. Besides, those claiming it's real, have consistently failed to justify. That's what the Saudi Arabian authorities go by nonetheless.

If, on the other hand, we're talking self-proclaimed witches, wearing talismans, doing whatever rituals, then their curses have still not been shown to harm others, not by "magic" at least.

"Supernatural witchcraft" is out either way. It's a non-explanation in the first place anyway.

the idea is that whether or not your intent and behavior (mens rea and actus rea) can factually result in your desired criminal outcome, the factual impossibility is no defense to being convicted of crimes that do not (or may not) require a particular outcome to be accomplished (cf inchoate crimes such as conspiracy and attempt) — Ennui Elucidator

Just as an example, I guess these people deliberately intended to magically harm someone they thought harmful, and other groups intended to (magically) counter that:

Witches cast 'mass spell' against Donald Trump (BBC; Feb 25, 2017)

Are the SAA authorities morally abhorrent, deserving of overthrow, etc? I'd go with a yes. — Ennui Elucidator

In this particular context (the opening post), I wouldn't go that far. Ending that ridiculous, unjust killing will do. (Per earlier comments, I'm reluctant to expand a verdict, let alone sentence, beyond the topic at hand.)

As mentioned, if we were to make a (strictly) legal assessment, then we reach a dead end because there's no definition of "witch". Going by the examples (executions) instead then, we're right back to "supernatural witchcraft". Not much more to see here. Ethics remain.

Leonid Volkov (Alexei Navalny chief of staff) opines (Jul 17, 2022):

Ignoring the usual political slant, I see a couple of worthwhile points. By the way, the reduction-to-chess-game misses the killings and bombing.

A Proposed Peace Plan to End the Russo-Ukrainian War (Jun 18, 2022)

Realistic?

<sup>1. full Ukraine sovereignty and neutrality
2. Ukraine to give up Crimea
3. Russia to withdraw except for Donbas, where new (temporary) borders will be drawn
4. Donbas to vote on independence, equal rights to all, no discrimination
5. Russia to OK Ukraine joining the EU as the case may be
6. no NATO/Ukraine relations
7. small Ukraine military only
8. small Ukraine weaponry only
9. everyone caught up in the war to be returned home (Geneva Convention)
10. no reparations demands, no international war crimes tribunals
11. US and EU to help rebuild Ukraine
12. diplomatic relations among Russia, Ukraine, NATO members to be in place
13. sanctions against Russia to end
14. no more NATO members along Russia's borders
15. reduce military presence and nuclear weaponry altogether
(I'll assume that some sort of Black Sea agreement + passage + cleanup would be part of it)</sup>

Either way, why not take it to the negotiation table?

Surprise, ? Must the thread really be reset ever so often (⇒ repetition)? Sorry, not going to keep restarting/resetting (even though we're coming up on 300 pages).
Indeed, trends, moves and shakes, ongoing developments, extending what's happened already, directions, give an impression, forms an overview, from Putin bullshitting the gullible to the Ukrainian "nobody" on the street shrugging and babbling (actually present on the ground).
Wait, yes, let me just repeat...

This stuff isn't floating in a vacuum.

Come to think on it, I'd have liked further comments on...

Anyone who didn't think from the get-go that this was always about China in the long run has not been paying attention. — Streetlight

Unfortunately, Streetlight is out, and it's a while back. :meh:

, what, challenging "the west" to shoot it out on "the battlefield"? Boasting military prowess? Walking out on a top meeting? Shutting down talks? All the while bombing the Ukrainians and announcing a larger "special operation"...? :D Get real. There's been comments in the thread already.

Yeah

"special operation" = (attempted) land-grab

^{(Besides, those magnificent Ukrainian fields, those militarily and economically advantageous Black Sea shores, in "the right hands", connecting the Moldovian "resistance" with Father Kremlin, ... Just divert attention, shut down other voices at home, and roll the dice.)}

Lose sight of ...

The Ukrainians still want the invaders to leave. Ukraine has supporters that Russia doesn't. What Putin and Peskov nonchalantly call "the battlefield" is Ukraine. Putin's team went theatrical.

... and you lose sight of the basics. And that's that. You don't get to invade, bomb, try to take over, and think no one will notice.

By the way, those "nobodys" (a country of "dumb automatons" apparently (racism aside)) confirm what's been argued in the thread already. Not new or anything.

This stuff isn't floating in a vacuum. Coming up on 300 pages. :o

Could the anti-climate-change efforts eventually see a parallel to the anti-pandemic/mask/vaccine movement?

I really understand their anger. The farmers are also angry because they say, ‘we are the only sector who get all the blame.’ What about industry? What about the traffic? Maybe we should just ban all the cars in the Netherlands because they also emit nitrogen. This plan as announced in practice means that, in certain areas, farmers have to reduce their nitrogen emissions by 70%. That means they simply have to quit. — Marcel Crok

This is literally communism. If the state says, ‘we are going to take your private property away for the sake of a greater good,’ then the state has the prerogative to create crises to strip you of your rights. That's what's happening here. This will definitely affect ordinary civilians. It's part of a global agenda, so everyone around the world, especially Western countries, should be aware that this is something that is not just about the Dutch government. This is part of the ‘2030 agenda,’ this is part of the ‘great reset.’ — Eva Vlaardingerbroek

It is not very rational to curb the Dutch agriculture if you realize that they have the highest production per acre in the world and therefore the environmental load per kilogram food is lower than elsewhere. So, in a sense Dutch agriculture is a benefit for climate as well as biodiversity. — Simon Rozendaal

Similar protests could soon happen in the U.K. and parts of the European Union where natural gas and energy costs are near historic levels.
The issue is that despite this growing energy crisis in Europe, some governments still prioritize the climate agenda which makes energy ever more expensive, or which forces farmers to close their farms because that is the top priority, still, for a number of governments. This whole green agenda is causing huge burdens.
The Dutch are driven mad by these policies because it's killing their businesses and the farmers are fighting back big time.
This is what's going to happen all over Europe. I have no doubt that, come winter and millions of families can't heat their homes or pay their bills anymore, that there will be unrest all over Europe. — Benny Peiser

Via Financial Times:

Ukraine war news from February 25: Kyiv suburbs breached, Russian forces face resistance, Zelensky warns Russia will ‘storm’ capital (Feb 25, 2022)

Via Reuters:

Russia declares expanded war goals beyond Ukraine's Donbas (Jul 20, 2022)

Via The Guardian:

Today, we hear that they want to defeat us on the battlefield. What can you say? Let them try. We have heard many times that the west wants to fight us to the last Ukrainian. This is a tragedy for the Ukrainian people, but it seems that everything is heading towards this. — Vladimir Putin (Jul 8, 2022)

Russia’s potential is so great that only a small portion of it is being used in the special operation. — Dmitry Peskov (Jul 8, 2022)

If the west doesn’t want talks to take place but wishes for Ukraine to defeat Russia on the battlefield – because both views have been expressed – then perhaps there is nothing to talk about with the west. — Sergei Lavrov (Jul 8, 2022)

Lavrov walks out of G20 talks after denying Russia is causing food crisis (Jul 8, 2022)
^{Russian foreign minister accuses the west of frenzied criticism over his country’s invasion of Ukraine}

The Ukrainians still want the invaders to leave. Ukraine has supporters that Russia doesn't. What Putin and Peskov nonchalantly call "the battlefield" is Ukraine. Putin's team went theatrical.

Just saw an interview with a Danish reporter in Odessa (Jul 20, 2022):
Whether exaggerated or not, Pesky's (bombastic) statement has truth to it: Russia has an inherent upper hand here due to amount of resources, location, size, and Russia isn't being invaded, don't recall anyone having threatened to do so here.
The reporter had asked a number of Ukrainians what they thought of statements like those quoted, and they all just shrugged at them, responding that nothing coming out of those people can be trusted.

"special operation" = (attempted) land-grab

the scientist as detached observer, an all-seeing eye, in a world of objects theoretically intelligible in terms of their primary attributes, describable in terms of Cartesian algebraic geometery — Wayfarer

Not sure that's an accurate or fair description.
Experiments are often devised to focus on specific variables and to eliminate others, ceteris paribus.
This has worked fine in many or most cases, then there are cases where that becomes more difficult.
Say, when a measurement itself interferes markedly with the measured, or when the larger environment/system (in a sort of holistic sense) can't be ignored.
It's just a (traditional) feature of designing experiments to minimize elements that aren't the objective, it's not so much that other elements simply are said to not exist.

, sorry, no offense intended. Deforestation, pollution, nature/wildlife displacement, population growth, renewability, ..., all related. Just thought I'd make sure comments are on the same page.

scrub CO2 from the atmosphere — Tate

That's what trees have been doing for...some time...sort of.



^{(↑ simplified, but probably good enough here)}

I guess it's not just a matter of inventing a cool CO₂ vacuum cleaner.

A quick check on the Sweden Finland NATO thing, from whatever sources:

^{Feb 24 Russia invades Ukraine
Feb 25 Russia threatens ‘military and political consequences’ if Finland, Sweden try joining NATO
Feb 26 Finland, Sweden brush off Moscow's warning on joining NATO
Mar 12 Russian Official Warns Finland, Sweden Against Joining NATO
Mar 23 An anti-Russian 'disinformation operation' has singled out a Finnish university but it's unclear why
Apr 11 Ukraine War: Russia warns Sweden and Finland against Nato membership
Apr 14 Russia warns of nuclear deployment if Sweden, Finland join NATO
Apr 22 Russian media in Switzerland: A mix of propaganda and anti-regime critics
Apr 25 Sweden and Finland agree to submit Nato applications, say reports
May 06 Posters in Moscow accuse famous Swedes of backing Nazism
May 12 Russia threatens ‘retaliatory steps’ if Finland joins NATO
May 15 Finland and Sweden confirm intention to join Nato
May 16 Putin sees no threat from NATO expansion, warns against military build-up
Jun 30 Putin says Finland and Sweden can 'go ahead' and join NATO but warned the countries against hosting the alliance's 'military contingents and infrastructure'
Jul 05 Russia Reacts to Sweden and Finland Nearing NATO Membership
Jul 13 Moomin features in anti-Finland propaganda on Moscow streets}

(the articles themselves are usually fairly short, don't take a day to read, but have references, which can take a while to sift through)

Someone's been busy. Spreading garbage left and right.

Until or if Putin can threaten/force Sweden/Finland sufficiently, they'll be parts of NATO defense, unlike Ukraine. As it stands, I don't think Putin and team really have the extra resources. Rattling the nukes brought some additional attention onto them. (Might not be the best for them?) Russia threatens, invades Ukraine, threatens a bit, dismisses a bit, two other neighbors set to join NATO, ...

What are the trends? What to make of it?

, the usual "disconnect" is seen... :/ Of course economies, politics, etc, matter as well, yet nature doesn't care about our talking — without action, our environment will just go on its course — and that part ought to be part of the economical talk as well.

, wow, thought this would have been clear enough, and already spoken to in the thread, guess not.

The weapons are just so the West can say "it tried" (and also supply the black market to destabilise the entire continents security). — boethius

The so-called moral imperative of "freedom" or whatever is merely a tool to whip people up into whatever frenzy people need to be in to support self-harming policies — boethius

Really? That's the story and the whole story? (And the Ukrainians are but dumb automatons? And Putin + team?) :/ "Tunnel-vision" came to mind. Was going to start listing examples/quotes/whatever, but the thread is almost at page 300, plenty's been posted already, bit more than the ↑ quoted account.

, isn't in/determinate epistemic, whereas being "this" or "that" is ontological?

(ah, nevermind me, time to turn in)

↪Tom Storm Would a clone refer to its original as "father"? Possibly. Would we consider some kind of continuation of personhood as well between a clone and its original? Probably. So obviously we were created by all powerful aliens in their image where only Jesus was a clone. Problem solved. — Benkei

Ancient Aliens: Was Noah an Alien? (Season 9) | History

;)

By Law of Identity, if “two” things have the same set of properties, then they are one-and-the-same, and if not, then they are distinct. — A Christian Philosophy

The law of identity (1st law of logic), and identity of indiscernibles (Leibnizian metaphysics), aren't the same, at least they aren't in philosophy.

I considered a similar poll regarding homosexuality.
(In principle at least, people would/should be similarly equipped to do an assessment; this one has received more spotlight though.)
Defining "homosexual" would be easier, their laws more "well defined", yet equally unjust, inhuman, indecent, wrong.


:D

Philosophical musings:

Nothingness (Roy Sorensen; Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy; updated Feb 28, 2022)

Physicist musings:

The Four Different Meanings Of 'Nothing' To A Scientist (Ethan Siegel; Forbes; May 1, 2020)

• a condition where the raw ingredients to create your "something" didn't exist
• nothingness is the void of empty space
• nothingness as the ideal lowest-energy state possible for spacetime
• nothingness only occurs when you remove the entire universe and the laws that govern it

From some we might expect "nothingness" to express (exhaustive) absence of everything/anything, i.e. by negation, like the missing complement to existence. Oddly enough, this also implies absence of constraints, conservation (physics), prevention, etc. Not much to speak of it seems. A referent-free word? If there was another reason for it all, for existence, then that reason wouldn't exist, since existence/all is inclusive (by definition). There's something suspect about this inquiry.

Colloquially we might say something like "there's nothing in the fridge", meaning the fridge is empty, ready to be filled (with beer). Rather different from the other uses.

But, amazingly, it's all somehow around. :)