:D

:D

Well, it's not like Putin has improved the :heart:.

Hmm ?

Even if that were true (it isn't), do you think attacking bombing ruinage and killing civilian and other Ukraine/Ukrainians somehow helps...? :chin: Weird.

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now.
Done, no more of the ruinage and killing, civilian and other, refugees could return home and rebuild.

come from — ChatteringMonkey

autonomous moral agents.

Surely we're influenced by culture, traditions, etc.
Yet, we can't derive what we ought to do from traditions.

It's on us, always was

Oh wait, you confirmed, sort of:

if you let tradition or culture turn to shit, you will end up a lot of people using shit ideas when making these moral judgement — ChatteringMonkey

(EDITED)

, it doesn't take vacuum for ...

the problem would consist in not skipping a tradition, despite that being the right thing to do in some situation

Yep, we should cultivate and nurture moral awareness → autonomous moral agency. :up:
Old comment.
Morals aren't reducible to traditions, they're not identical (you can find counter-examples).
It's on us, always was; not just a walk in the park; in some given situation you might have to skip a tradition to do the right thing.

Shouldn't decision-makers do the right thing regardless of traditions, perhaps even in spite of traditions as the case may be...?

Pawing off morals to something else is problematic; actually it's almost like a kind of moral blindness.

(EDITED words and such)

Is that supposed to be an argument? Or did you think I'd forgotten what your opinion was? — Isaac

Not going to repeat whatever previous comments already in the thread.
We'd start anew ever so often. :D

I'd urge anyone who would mindlessly parrot propaganda here - those who have chosen their "team" and will cheerlead it into its respective destructions - to carefully consider what it is exactly they're seeking and thus enabling. — Tzeentch

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now.
Done, no more of the ruinage and killing, civilian and other, refugees could return home and rebuild.

, I thought it was fairly obvious that ethics ≠ traditions, but maybe not?
Would just take some examples to show.

Shouldn't decision-makers do the right thing regardless of traditions, perhaps even in spite of traditions as the case may be...?

the problem would consist in not skipping a tradition, despite that being the right thing to do in some situation

Ethics are more bound to autonomous moral agents, doing right in whatever given situation regardless of traditions; traditions are more bound to culture, following whatever has been done before regardless of doing what's right.
Sure, they may overlap, yet they're not the same.

Americans Still Oppose Overturning Roe v. Wade
^{Lydia Saad · Gallup · Jun 9, 2021}

Granted, numbers vary regionally.

Confidence in U.S. Supreme Court Sinks to Historic Low
^{Jeffrey M Jones · Gallup · Jun 23, 2022}

Not really looking good.

As mentioned by , the decision wasn't based on human rights treaties, natural rights theories (+ bodily integrity), bioethics, and nor on general public opinion.

Maybe we'll start seeing more of this...?

The Supreme Court rewarded religious coercion by a Christian football coach
^{Hemant Mehta
Jun 27, 2022}

Wouldn't be all that surprising. I guess Muslims, Hindus, Wicca, Jedi :grin:, etc, should all join the public school football prayer sessions. Or not. Based on Mehta's commentary, I'd vote no confidence in SCOTUS, but haven't checked and verified all the details.

⁵ And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

⁶ But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. — Matthew 6:5-6

It's the world against , "The West", Christians, men, you name it.
, I suggest we all join you in a counter-strike, what say you? :smile:

Let's kill them! With kindness. — The Coach

Can't be captured so easily. :)

- act with being concerned (ok, that sounds a bit awkward); act with concern, yo!
- do tha' right thing
- do not do wrong; hey, do no harm (is that cheating?)
- get your conscience together (hmm maybe not so good)

, the problem would consist in not skipping a tradition, despite that being the right thing to do in some situation.
Shouldn't be hard to exemplify; may not apply to all traditions of course, maybe someone has a tradition that just says "do the right thing"?
Ethics ≠ traditions.

, too naïve. It's a land-grab (attempt).
The Ukrainians are sitting ducks (no NATO), something Putin would know as well as anyone.

Doctors in Alabama Already Turn Away Miscarrying Patients. This Will Be America’s New Normal. (May 17, 2022)

Whiff of fascism.

Don't know enough about the legalities...

The Missouri law, which provides no exception for rape or incest, classifies the act of inducing an abortion as a class B felony, meaning it could result in a five- to 15-year prison sentence. It applies to abortion providers, though it’s unclear whether someone could be prosecuted for using abortion-inducing medications, per the NPR station. — Republican-run US states move to immediately ban abortion after court overturns Roe v Wade (Jun 24, 2022)

It's "a monumental day for" regressive conservatism, religious sentiments being imposed upon others apparently, no mention of sober bioethics either.

dedicated to traditional Japanese values — javi2541997

lost its spiritual tradition — javi2541997

Political figures were representatives of our traditions back then — javi2541997

Ethics and traditions aren't the same things, though.
Shouldn't decision-makers do the right thing regardless of traditions, perhaps even in spite of traditions as the case may be...?

Maybe this is a good time for females in the US to relocate?





^{Source: Guttmacher Institute}



, when people like DeSantis and Cruz become elected officials, you know something's gone sour.

The main question is when life deserves moral consideration. For pro-life, this seems to often be at the moment of conception or some time early after that (I don’t see a lot of protests about Plan B for instance). In particular, this is for human life, not any sentient life in general. For pro-choice, it’s unclear and varies among people. — Paulm12

Sober bioethics should inform towards making a decision, and that hasn't happened here.

Putin's Russia is threatened by NATO.
It's just that the threat is against Putin's expansion (land-grabbing) ambitions.

And that goes to show how the sort of tu quoque type switch of narrative, "NATO is the threat", has been successful.
"Bring up and focus on that, and watch", you might hear Surkov say, with Medinsky nodding in agreement, and Kiselyov implementing for the masses.
"Shut others down", you might hear Putin say.
That was easy. :sparkle:

It became clear enough some time ago that no NATO membership for Ukraine isn't a peace-maker.
And Russian bombs are still bringing ruinage to Ukraine. :fire:

Can always lower the bar some more I guess.

Former Trump adviser Peter Navarro says he'd exact revenge by issuing subpoenas to Biden, Pelosi, and the Jan. 6 Committee if Republicans win in 2024 (Business Insider; Jun 3, 2022)

Ex-Trump Adviser Peter Navarro Vowed Revenge On Biden Before Being Indicted (HuffPost; Jun 3, 2022)

And Trump threatened Clinton on live TV way back when.

Let's not forget that following Jesus' demise, Christianity turned into a number of (fanatic) factions, not a single dominant homogenous unified movement, which would take some centuries still.
Celsus (≈ 175, well versed in Judaism), commented on the zealous rivals, and Theodosius I (347-395) decreed them "demented lunatics" in 380 — except for the Roman Catholics of course, now rubber-stamped by the empire.
But, with the backing of the Roman empire, Catholicism eventually came out on top, and outlasted the empire.
By 1350 the Catholic church had eradicated the Cathars, for example.
Christian involvement in anti-Semitism is a matter of record, including the founder of Protestantism.

Today (for some time), Christianity (like Islam) primarily maintain numbers by enculturation and indoctrination.
(Why else would anyone believe that a Jewish carpenter supernaturally fed 5000 then 4000 with a handful of food?)
When the requisite religious creeds tell them to do so, there's an element of self-sustaining propagation involved.
If memory serves, Sunnism overtook Catholicism in numbers worldwide around the turn of the millennium, and Islam at large is projected to overtake Christianity at large in some decades.

^{• Christians remain world’s largest religious group, but they are declining in Europe (Pew Research Center; Apr 5, 2017)
• Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group (Pew Research Center; Apr 6, 2017)}

I thought... Didn't the thread already establish that everyone is bad, evil, something like that...? — jorndoe

What about the Chinese, the Saudis, the Aussies, the Brunei, and the Dutch?

What's clearly needed is the much more firm, down-to-earth explanation that he's been possessed by the ghost of a long dead dictator. Much more reasonable. — Isaac

I read 's comment as witty, I guess not everyone did.

To cover up their crimes, some Australians have apparently converted to Buddhism and are calling Putin a “malevolent spirit” to deflect attention from themselves. — Apollodorus

Who are they?

Anyway, Putin has aired his thinking, not really new or anything, has already been suggested in this thread a few times.

:)

Again the NATO and Nazi things show to be partial rationales (at best), excuses.

Have to wonder if or to what degree the Russian parliament is on-board with this stuff.

Nothing new under the Sun? Loose cannon?

Putin compares himself to Peter the Great in quest to take back Russian lands (The Guardian; Jun 10, 2022)

^{Putin compared himself to Peter the Great, 350 years after the birth of the founder of the Russian Empire. Putin said Peter the Great's wars against the Swedish Empire were not conflicts of conquest but were taking back historically Russian land. While referring to the Battle of Narva in modern-day Estonia, Putin said it's fallen on him to take back and strengthen historically Russian lands. Speech seen as an appalling threat to neighbors.} :fire:

Ukrainian NATO membership was already conceded by both NATO and Ukraine (albeit not committed to official paper and stamped and sealed); bombs are still falling; OK, not going to cut it, not a peace-maker. — jorndoe

(↑ a month ago or something?) — jorndoe

No-NATO isn't a peace-maker, hasn't been for some time. Worked as an excuse for a bit, though, but not any more. Instead, Sweden and Finland are heading for NATO membership as a result of the invasion. Putin called out, and ought to quit the Ukrainian ruinage, looting, pilfering, killing, displacements, deportations, land-grabbing attempts, possibly creating a lot of haters that will take time to reverse.

, not atemporal.
And doesn't seem to have much to do with sentient all-creators.

The Ukrainian parliament fired their human rights commissioner for poor reports and such.

Ukraine Official Fired Over Handling of Russian Sexual Assault Claims (May 31, 2022)

On 31 May 2022, the Verkhovna Rada dismissed Denisova, with 234 deputies voting in favour of her dismissal. The main reason given was that she failed to facilitate humanitarian corridors and prevent Ukrainians under Russian occupation from being deported to Russia. Some deputies also accused her of making unverifiable statements about alleged sex crimes by Russian troops. — Lyudmyla Denisova (Wikipedia)

I think it makes perfect sense for Russia to have said that it had “no aggressive plans about Ukraine”, given that the problem was not Ukraine but NATO! — Apollodorus

What do you call Russia's activities then?

Ukrainian NATO membership was already conceded by both NATO and Ukraine (albeit not committed to official paper and stamped and sealed); bombs are still falling; OK, not going to cut it, not a peace-maker. — jorndoe

(↑ a month ago or something?)

You can have a temporal order without having a time associated with it. — Down The Rabbit Hole

Like before/after, earlier/later, past/now/future, ...? :brow:
You could have ordering (-1 < 0 < 1), but not temporal without time.
Unless I misunderstood something?

Here's a bit of spam...

How does atemporal sentience make less sense than any other atemporal chain of causation? — Down The Rabbit Hole

Rocks and bodies are spatial/object-like: left to right, top to bottom, front to back, movable, locatable, breakable (under conservation), ...

Eddies and minds/experiences are temporal/process-like: come and go, occurs, interruptible (interaction/event-causation), ...

^{Say, my supper is locatable, movable, breakable (spatial/object-like), my experiences thereof occur, are interruptible (temporal/process-like). Say, stomachs are spatial/object-like, left to right, and digestion (say, starting with chewing and salivating) occurs, comes and goes (temporal/process-like).}

• Suppose x is defined as non-spatial, "outside of space". Well, then x is nowhere to be found, no place. Cannot have any volume/area/length extent, not even zero-dimensional (like a mathematical singularity).
^{• objects are spatial, left to right, front to back, top to bottom, locatable, movable, breakable (under conservation)}

• Suppose x is defined as atemporal, "outside of time". Well, then x was/is nowhen, no simultaneity. No duration involved, cannot change, can't be subject to causation, can't interact, inert and lifeless (at most).
^{• processes are temporal, come and go, occur, interruptible (interaction/event-causation)}

The closest in the literature of not spatiotemporal seems to be abstracts, maybe like sterile inhabitants of Platonia.

Minds partake in the world, interact (both ways), are active, are parts of the world. Fairly uncontroversial in science (evidence-based) and philosophy. Special pleading no good.

Morals have to do with concern for each other.

If there is no law then how do you know what is right and what is wrong? — SpaceDweller

I don't think morals can be reduced like that. Even given such a law, in any given situation, you'd still have to figure out if following it is the right thing to do.
Axiomatizing morals don't seem to work well, not rule-bound as such, performative. It's on us, bound by autonomous moral agents.
The various trolley problems also show that there can be dilemmas without one specific right thing to do.
And we have some examples where moral awareness evolved.
Tedious. :)

Good engineering exists. — Varde

I'd say bad, mediocre, and good engineering exists.

I would say the best definition is something to the effect of, being/s that created the universe. — Down The Rabbit Hole

I guess sentient is implicit...?

^{(barring special pleading, atemporal sentience doesn't make much sense, hence asking)}

I thought... Didn't the thread already establish that everyone is bad, evil, something like that...?
I guess then a follow-up is: therefore...?

Words like Pegasus prompt us to differentiate fictional/imaginary and real.
The winged horse does exist (in stories) but just isn't real.

Seems to me the word "supernatural" can more or less be replaced with "unknown" without incurring any informative loss.
As an explanation, when has "supernatural" ever done away with ignorance/errors?

The Ameriguns (2021) by Gabriele Galimberti

Are you allowed to open-carry a flamethrower in the US? :chin:

The US president and an Ukrainian anarchist have something in common: they both see Putin's Russia against Ukraine as totalitarianism/autocracy against democracy. I imagine they disagree on a few other things, though.

https://warontherocks.com/2022/05/would-we-do-better-hubris-and-validation-in-ukraine/ — RogueAI

Yep, the numbers alone matter and Russia has them.
Similarly, Russia has an additional degree of freedom, being the attacker; the Ukrainians are already home.
We're talking fairly large populations here; I can see attrition leading to a lot of hate in the Ukrainian population.
Where things were supposed to improve, less corruption, less hate, more freedom, more opportunities for anyone, ..., Putin has instead ensured some regression.

30% information, 70% sarcasm and insults. — Xtrix

You might be a bit generous.

I'm not wading though these pages of muck to repost all the times you have played Nazi PR specialist, but you are welcome to search my posts for when I have called you out on it. Although probably don't bother as you wouldn't be able to read them correctly anyway. — Streetlight

Meanwhile, life goes on in Ukraine (for some at least), just a bit differently.

Bakhmut family with no gas or power cook outside (May 31, 2022)

Would it be worthwhile listing some peace-makers?
No NATO membership for Ukraine wasn't one apparently.
An obvious one is Putin taking his land-grabbing attempts down a notch, moving his troopers (and Nazi mercs) home, out of harm's way, well, if they also stop bombing.
...?

Mass Shootings Can Be Contagious, Research Shows (Aug 6, 2019)

After Uvalde, mass shootings continue over the weekend across the U.S. (May 29, 2022)

:o And legislators just keep sitting on their hands, as they've done for years. Expect more.

In the days before the shooting, posts featured a photo of a hand holding an ammunition magazine and another photo of two AR-15-style rifles
[...]
The gunman legally bought his weapons soon after his 18th birthday and days before the attack, law enforcement officials told state lawmakers — Texas elementary school shooting: What do we know so far? (May 27, 2022)

The conclusion is the same. I'm not seeing any of my Republican colleagues come forward right now and say, 'Here's a plan to stop the carnage.' So this is just normal now, which is ridiculous. — Cory Booker (May 25, 2022)