In the real world — Frank Barroso

Where's the fake world? :s I hate this BS construct of a "real world". Everything is "real world".

on the surface at least, they're happy. — Frank Barroso

Given that 50% of marriages end up in divorce, you should reconsider that. Oysteroid paints the picture from the vantage point of someone who seems to have made what he doesn't have as the ultimate ideal, without even realising the pitfalls. It does often happen that desire, when not allowed to be satisfied, erects the impossible goal into the best thing, and the one and only thing that can make life worth living. Oyster is saying nothing new - we know this from patients under psychoanalysis for the past 100 years or so. And we also know that if they do fulfil that desire in the end, they will feel worse than ever, the way Oyster felt after finishing the mountain climb. Desire does not lead to fulfilment, it's a blind alley.

Turned out the sheep was sheep, and you were the wolf. This scenario would suck. So it'd be wise to at least consider the scenario in which the sheep is no wolf, and to simply watch carefully. No dead sheep and you still resolve the situation. — Frank Barroso

Yeah, and what if it's the other way around? Isn't that a good scenario? That's why you have to use your judgement.

I fail to see how we could accept the vanity of desire yet at the same time actually try to court a partner which would be to desire quite a lot. But I do get what your saying in both cases and agree with both. — Frank Barroso

So you fail to see how we could accept them, but you do agree with both of them? :s

Could I pick your brain a little as to the specific actions or experiences or deeds or emotions within or outside of yourself that give your life meaning? — Frank Barroso

Well God gives me meaning, and other than that my family and my work. But I don't think there's anything you need to do to live a meaningful life. You could live a meaningful life never leaving your room, or sitting in a cave in meditation & prayer your whole life. That too is possible.

In fact, that's how he created jobs. By strengthening big business.

Obama had to repair the broken auto. Trump merely stepped in after he got it running. And you're crediting him with what? Not crashing it again in a few months after taking office. OK, well, that's a low bar. — Baden

Obama made big business stronger than ever in the US. Never has big business, including big banks, been as loved and protected as under Obama. It's the small entrepreneurs that have been crushed.

Regulations protects workers, consumers, and the environment. — Michael

Yeah, while crippling my small business which cannot afford to hire 10 Hanovers to find loopholes in the law :-}

He is incapable. Investors believing that he'll implement policies that will benefit them isn't the same as being capable. — Michael

It will benefit business, including, yes, investors. What's wrong with that? That's what the President is supposed to do.

Regulation always hits hardest on small businesses, not big businesses. In fact, regulations often protect big business and create barriers to entry that smaller peeps can't compete against. Bet you didn't know that ;)

-but-not-the-greatest-ever-2017-10-20 — Baden

I never said they were greatest ever, but they are very good, despite the left trying to claim Trump is incapable. And yes, Obama had even 5% quarter.

2014-2016 when Obama was big boss, there was almost 0% change.

I assume because investors believe that Trump will cut down on regulations that will allow them to make even more money, and so investor confidence is high? — Michael

Right exactly. That's good. People are getting excited about doing business in America again.

Why does it suddenly go up at a faster rate ever since Trump was elected?! :-d :-}

Are these numbers fake? 26% growth in DJI, less than one year. By the 1 year mark, we may well see 33% or higher! GDP growth highest in last 2 years and just over 3%! These are the numbers anti-Trump folk don't want others to see.

Has your cheque from the Trump Foundation arrived on your doorstep? — Michael

Alas, I wouldn't have said anything had I not seen Wayfarer being back to his old self, spreading propaganda.

Putin is right @Wayfarer - people like you are being disrespectful to all the people who have elected Donald Trump, and who have legitimacy to rule over America as they see fit now that they've won. You are denying the will of the people, by being a sore loser.

Hahahaha!!! Has the new check from Crooked Foundation arrived on your doorstep? You will see that Trump will be vindicated.

Yes, he only eats veggie burger.

Nor I of you. I tell you my issue to your face, in real time, so we are on fair footing.
Now get off of my foot! :P — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It's not fair that you ask me to get off your foot when the only off is off the edge of the cliff - that's not very caring of you... >:O

One of the moderators told me he was getting complaints about me from member X — Bitter Crank

I never complained about you sweetheart >:O >:O >:O

I sometimes wish I could just start over. The problem is that even if I could, I wouldn't know what I know now. But you can benefit from my experience. — oysteroid

Yes, and here again goes your whole search for meaning... aren't you tired of all this searching for meaning and such? You've searched for it your whole life, but meaning is right there, under your nose, in your present circumstances. You've built for yourself an entire mental prison, which you now confuse for reality. Aren't you tired of using others - in this case Posty - as your tools, to make you feel meaningful and useful? Why do you need others? Meaning comes from the inside, not from the outside. You actually hurt others in this way. You don't have to give Posty your valuable experience - he doesn't need it. He needs to be free to make his own decisions, live his own life.

Listen, I understand. I've lived this life of hiding from life and the world and taking refuge in Mom. I know it and all the thought processes and rationalizations that tend to go with it better than you do. I am older and more experienced. — oysteroid

>:O Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not laughing at you, but this just sounds hilarious! You may be older and more experienced, that has nothing to do with being right though. I brush elbows in my work with people 2 or even 3 times my age - their "experience" and "age" doesn't intimidate me anymore (though it used to). They don't know more than I do, and neither do I know more than they do for that matter - we both have to learn from each other. Stop putting yourself on to the high position of teacher, who shares from his infinite suffering to help us poor mortals and unexperienced idiots live better lives, while you can feel meaningful. It's not nice, and it's not going to be productive.

Part of becoming an adult involves realising that others (mom, father, boss, etc.) don't actually know more than you do - they're just as blind and ignorant as you, so you have to trust your own judgement, cause you ain't going to find a better one anyway.

But when I finally left at 27, it felt good. I started to flower and unfold in many ways that aren't psychologically easy while under the strong influence of a mom. — oysteroid

Well, I first left home at 18 when I went to University and I didn't live with my parents anymore. I've only gone back to living with my parents long after, when I finally left the UK. I can't say I "flowered" etc. any differently. What's the big deal? Same thing really, apart from obviously that I can't bring someone (friends, don't think anything bad) into my parents' home easily, the way I could when I lived in UK. So really, no big difference honestly.

My cousin lived with his mom till he was darn 31. Now he's married and doing mighty well. So what's the big deal? :s You're living in a mental prison of your own making. Your anxiety is creating false threats and obstacles that don't even exist. Stop searching for meaning and BS, and find a way to deal with anxiety and depression. They sound like they are your real problems. Not lack of meaning, etc.

Could this romance work, even with the age difference? What would she think of me when she learned about my life, my age, my romantic inexperience, and my joblessness? — oysteroid

Yes, it could, but you'll never find out until you try it. Having tried and failed is better than not even trying.

She's more experienced with relationships at 25 than I am at 40. Let's put this bluntly: I am still a virgin. It is difficult to admit it, even given the anonymity here. That's a hugely difficult thing to overcome for me. — oysteroid

What's the big deal about being a virgin?! Seems like you cling to this same 15-year-old mentality. What's the big deal? You're a virgin, so what? You're not in school anymore, nobody actually cares. To realise how silly this is, what do you think my girlfriend would have been like in high school if I told her, wait a second, I'm a virgin, I guess now you need to initiate me before we go further :s ...

Virginity is only a problem in your mind. You think being virgin makes you different. You think you need to have "experience" with regards to sex to be good at it. Etc. All false. If you can control your feelings, including fear, anxiety, etc. then experience or no experience, it doesn't matter. You're a man - the idea that you'd ask a girl to 'initiate' you, even if she happened to be 50 while you're 20 is absurd. Lunacy - the exact opposite of what women are looking for anyway.

She'd have to initiate me. And I would be an emotional mess after all the deprivation and romantic/sexual hopelessness that I've endured for so long. One kiss and I'd probably break down sobbing. — oysteroid

So, how do you think I started working as self-employed? You think I called local companies up, being like "Umm, never built a website before, but I'm sure I can do a great job for you!"? Of course not. If I had done that, I would never have gotten even a single client. How do you think I can work with people 2-3 times my age? How can I sometimes compete against people with 100x times my experience? Experience is bunk. Hillary Clinton has experience, but as Trump said, it's bad experience. Just cause someone has more experience than you, it doesn't mean they're smarter or better.

It is obvious, for one thing, that I need to get my life really going and develop a significant income before I can even think seriously about pursuing a romantic involvement. I need to become a man. Right now, I am a child still in many ways. — oysteroid

About the income, I obviously agree. Though I disagree that you're still a child. The only reason you're still a child is cause you keep behaving like a child, instead of dropping that, and just acting like a man. You already are a man - you don't need to become one. It's not such a big deal that you never had a girlfriend, or that you're a virgin... really. Why do you make such a fuss about it? You think an animal in the forest, if for one reason or another, it didn't have the chance to have sex until it was the equivalent of 50 year old in human age, you think that animal would be frustrated and reluctant to have sex when he sees a female? :s All you have done is constructed a mental prison for yourself. Your problem isn't that you're a virgin, you lack experience, yadda yadda - your problem is that you're obsessed about your virginity, lack of experience, yadda yadda, such that they become stumbling blocks in your journey to find your happiness.

The same with the 25-year-old girl - how do you know the relationship will not work if you don't try it? She has a boyfriend, so I get why you don't, but I'm talking about your attitude here. You need to be more optimistic.

(and by the way, romantic experiences are most likely neither as amazing as you think they are, nor as bad as some people say they are - in other words, I don't actually think you'd feel a lot better now if you were married and with kids. Sure, it's a way to deceive yourself, that's how desire, psychoanalytically, functions. What you lack, that's what it wants most. But that doesn't mean it would make you fulfilled. Becoming a grown up means, to one extent or another, realising the vanity of desire. There is a reason why people generally return to the same baseline level of happiness - if they are miserable people, they generally keep being miserable, and if they are of a sunny disposition, they keep being of a sunny disposition, usually regardless of what outer circumstances are like).

>:O Of course, that's why I'm telling you in the first place, hopefully, you'll use the carrot, not the stick...

What street are you talking about? Are you talking about rumor on the web? Which by the way, I have not heard of until I read this post and wonder where you heard this rumor. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I have my sources ;)

It is not a trash can because those are emptied and filled, hence their purpose. I bet you $100 of Hanover's money that if you could research Eric Porat Or Richard Porat 's tax returns, you will see a business investment to the tune of $20k and the intended failure to convert it to a tax write off. That IS the only reason I can come up with why Eric Porat would not want to sell it back or abandon it all together. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Probably.

Rumor on the street has it that Paul is desperately trying to fix it, even for free, but Eric Porat isn't replying to anyone, not just Paul. I guess he purposefully wants to use the website as a trash can.


They don't know site isn't working. They think if they purchase sponsorship, they'll have access.

Some eight months ago, darthbarracuda wrote:

"What something is is not simply a question of its material constitution but of its relationship to other things as well."

This has become my philosophical motto. It's hard to pack more wisdom about metaphysics into one short sentence. — Pierre-Normand

Oh wow, it is very wise indeed (Y)

I feel that education has been corrupted to the maximization of utility for an individual via devoting one's time to working for the economy — Posty McPostface

Yes, but that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that education no longer gives you the tools necessary for independence in the economy. Education just trains you to be an employee.

You sound a bit too Epicurean for my tastes. I'd get bored I think.

Yes, although there is also the (mostly) post-enlightenment lust for knowledge, which leads (in the realm of technology) to innovation, greater efficiency and savings, surpluses, and therefore growth. — Baden

But consider that scientists are not the ones that generally drive growth. Creative personalities do. Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. etc. They do not create new technology and knowledge. They use existing knowledge and technology to solve different puzzles or problems. So growth is not driven by the lust for knowledge.

lust for wealth derives from fear of Them. — Banno

It can, in part. But it's not the only possibility. Lust for wealth (and growth) can be driven by a desire to cause certain changes as well, so power (wealth, growth, etc.) then becomes necessary - a means to an end.

One would think those on a Philosophy forum wouldn't be so attacking. He gave you his opinion. Without any resentment or anger towards you or anybody. And here you are spitting your ideas unto him as if he has done you wrong; as if it would be right to spit at him and to WANT to cause suffering and distress within a person for any reason. It's like, even on a philosophy forum, people care about what others think. Oh noe. It's like your proving Oysteroid right? Oh woe. — Frank Barroso

I'm not attacking at all. I know Oysteroid from the old PF, and he's a good guy. I was more aggressive than normal because this isn't the first time I see this, and he's trying to influence others in a way that I think is negative. That's a problem, especially since this isn't the first post in this thread in which he's doing it. So the first time I let it slide largely, but now I decided to intervene.

I don't know what happened to Oysteroid, but he's different in this new perspective that he displays now compared to how he was at old PF. The reason why I got angry at him is because he's just humiliating himself, he's calling it quits to his own life philosophy because he listened to Peterson, and he's probably having a hard time right now, or whatever. He shouldn't quit, declare his life as sucky, and come around whining and advising people to take the road that Western culture basically tells them to take anyway.

And notice I didn't disagree with Oysteroid on this:

But in my opinion, through honest self-examination and whatnot, I tend to think that I have just managed to become extra conscious of and honest with myself about what is the case for most everyone in this respect, even those who insist otherwise. It is always possible that I am wrong and that there are many people out there who are truly unaffected by what anyone else thinks of them, who don't desire affection, admiration, approval, the warmth of social connection, validation, the warmth of physical contact, the feeling of being valued, or any of it, people who also can't be wounded aside from physical attack. I'd be very surprised if such people exist. If they do, I'd bet they are mutants of some kind, like people who totally lack empathy or can't feel pain. — oysteroid

But I do severely disagree with the road he (and Western culture) recommends to take in order to achieve that. I think quite the contrary, the road Western culture recommends will leave you in the ditch.

I am (largely) unaffected by what others think about me (I have developed, and am trying to develop, as much as possible, a thick skin), but I can't say I don't desire admiration, being valued, and the like. It's more like a question of what I'm willing to pay for admiration, being valued, etc. and what I'm not willing to pay. I don't prostitute myself for admiration, being valued, etc.

What a piece of utter crap... *shakes head*

I thought at first this crap was coming from you. I was wondering - what happened? I remember you were quite an intelligent fellow at old PF, I often read your posts with joy. Then I saw where the stink was coming from:

Have a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c9Uu5eILZ8 — oysteroid

No wonder! You've been drinking the kool-aid of that scam artist Jordan Peterson :-} He's loving it - he's making $70K+ PER MONTH - in just a little bit, he will be a millionaire - his family will be sorted for life. You, on the other hand, will still be a poor lonely 40-year-old - cause Peterson only makes himself richer, by selling you afterthoughts and shadows.

Something I've come to recognize is that we are hardwired to value certain things — oysteroid

That's false. People are very different, there's no "hardwiring". Maybe YOU are hardwired, but not everyone is.

Being on disability and still living at home with your mom as an adult is by itself a recipe for depression — oysteroid

>:O - living on disability is getting income from the government. That's good in my books. Any income you can gain for free, why not?

As for living with your mother, what's the problem with that? :s Don't you see what a man-child you have made yourself into? Don't you see how you are duped? A little medal, a little "status" is all it takes to have you on your knees. What did Napoleon say?

"A soldier will fight long and hard for a little bit of ribbon"

That's how people are controlled. If you cannot stand having the whole world laugh at you, how are you greater than them? Didn't even the great Chinese general Huan Xin crawl between the knees of two vagabonds?! Who cares what the world thinks, when you control the real pillars of strength? Appearances are irrelevant.

Because let me tell you the truth. Status is but a shadow of the real things that drive this world. There are four important things in the world. First, it is your God. Then it is your family. Then it is money. And lastly, it is brute strength (whether physical or the military). Currently, they are in that order of importance. God and family will always remain in the first two places, but brute strength and money can change places, depending on your society.

Belief and servitude to God, loyalty to your family, money and brute strength. That's how a man gains a good life.

Now let's think about it. Why move out from your mother's place? To gain the world's respect? What good will that do you, if you lack the four pillars of success? It is a shadow - that respect will vanish as soon as it is given, since it is not based on anything lasting, on anything that can compel it. An accident, or a disease, will be sufficient to lose that respect. You will always be a servant to the world that way, you will never be free. I still live with my mother. Why would I move out, to pay rent to another person? Isn't it more intelligent to save that money I'd pay for rent instead, get a mortgage, buy a property, and rent it out? Then it pays for itself, while I live with my mom. Then when my parents die, and the property has paid for itself, I will have 2 properties. I can leverage one, to gain control over another. Soon, that boy you were laughing at will be a landlord, earning more than needed from the rent of 2 properties. My family will then have the means to support itself, and even grow its income. You on the other hand will have chased after the wind of respect, and be left with nothing in the end but a pile of debt that still hasn't paid for itself. In the long run, I will compel the world's respect, and you won't. And all because I wasn't scared to have the world laugh at me, and chased what was important - that which is the real object that causes the shadow of respect. Going against the grain is the only way you'll ever make it in this world.

Look at Obama. He laughed at Trump. What good did it do him? He only humiliated himself.


Laughing does nothing. Insulting does nothing. They change literarily zero. Why do I care if the whole world laughs at me, so long as I control the army? They can laugh, but everyone knows where the real power is. The true philosopher does not grasp after the shadows on the wall of the cave - but after that which causes the shadows.

If I have done my duty to God, why do I care what the world thinks? Shall I not have great reward in Heaven?

Smarty pants. — T Clark

Nice addition ;)

I don't think there is anyone on this forum who has thought more about how to use philosophy to deal with her demons. — T Clark

Oh, you've done an analysis about who thought most about using philosophy to deal with their demons on PF? :D

Where did you find this faith? — Noble Dust

Oh it was just while walking in Aussie land, she found it lying on the ground and just picked it up you know ma dawg? :D

But I do still believe in my own genius; I just don't much care if others think of me as such. — Noble Dust

Yeah of course. The point of self-belief is that it doesn't matter what others think.

Interesting; I had a really great percussion teacher, but other than that, not much. But I did develop a belief in my own musical genius. But it hasn't gotten me far. — Noble Dust

Not yet at least. It is necessary but not also sufficient. To get far you have to find a way that works. How can your music reach a wide enough audience? Who would recognise your music as great? How can you make people love it? A lot of this is marketing, and not really making music. Without the right marketing, even the greatest music will remain unknown.

I didn't mean to be condescending there, but that theme of lacking someone who believes in you has been a major theme in my life, so I made the assumption it was obvious. Learning about that constantly... — Noble Dust

I never really had someone who believes in me - that's how I ended up believing in myself in the first place. No one else would, and I needed it. It does help if you have a self-belief, like Schopenhauer did, in your own genius - that can pull you through many things.

In what ways? — Noble Dust

In that it keeps you going. It keeps you hoping for a great future even when your present isn't so great.

It took that guy to make you realize that? (seriously). :s — Noble Dust

Yeah, I never really thought about it, but it's true when I do think about it based on my experience.

Will this be successful? — Noble Dust

In my experience, it works.

I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, I was trying to highlight the subjectivity of depression.

What's the point of posting the Shkreli video? Especially since he says he doesn't have major depression? — Noble Dust

I recently listened to it, and I found it interesting. He's in many ways right that having someone who unconditionally believes in you is really good - if you don't have that someone, then you must believe in yourself, unconditionally.

I've never experienced that, so by your own logic, you're wrong. — Noble Dust

Okay, I don't care if I'm wrong. So be it.

I agree, but I wanted to highlight that depression is not always traceable to one specific cause. My depression, after long, detailed analysis done by yours truly, does not avail itself to one simple cause. I was trying to highlight that point with my comments. That probably wasn't clear. That's a trait of depression, it seems; we try to highlight our own experience at the expense of the experience of others. See my harsh comment bellow... — Noble Dust

Mental illness is of the brain. — Noble Dust

Yes, but it's not always something physically wrong with the brain. And even if there is, the brain has neuroplasticity, it can physically change itself with mental exertion in some circumstances.

But yes, some people do seem to just have chemical imbalances.

Because it's unrealistic and phantastical. — Noble Dust

It's not unrealistic at all. Snapping out of depression is like hitting a switch. I know, because I've experienced it. The same thing looks different after.

Where are they? :-| (you mean they don't post on this forum?) — Noble Dust

Asia.

Nah, I've met people who seem to have a good amount of mental health. — Noble Dust

Most of those are weak mentally too. They just never face up to the issues in question. Not fighting and running away isn't the same as being strong.

That metaphor is unconvincing; you'd need to try something else. — Noble Dust

Why?

If someone said to you "my leg is broken! Help!" would you then say, "We all have broken legs for one reason or another - some are just less aware of their broken legs." — Noble Dust

Except that broken legs are a physical condition, and depression is mental (some is physical too, but not in all cases).

And I'm sure if someone could get the people here to focus on a practical problem in a business/NGO kind of setting, they'd come up with better solutions than most "experts" out there. There's a lot of potential here, but it must be leveraged.

Again, you are not answering the problem at hand. You said that people who care about their life that words would not matter. Being on this philosophy forum is not natural "lol" as there are millions of places to visit, other forums to chat on. — TimeLine

Sure, but people here can think better than elsewhere generally. There is help available in solving meta-philosophical issues - and on some ethical ones too. But not really in terms of metaphysics, etc.

So, are you saying that after more than seven thousand posts and your considerable amount of hours that you have spent on here mean that you don't care about your life? — TimeLine

No, my posts are not helpful to me, obviously. They may be helpful to others, but not to me. Some other people's posts have been helpful to me, but they are rare and far between.

Since I work as self-employed and my work tools are the computer, spending time here is just... natural. lol.

Well, I was not trying to question why activity is more important than studying books or vice versa. My point was why does activity matter in the first place? Why does anything need to get done? — schopenhauer1

Why does answering that question matter in the first place? :s

You are not articulating your adequately, on the contrary continuously escape from justifying your position and you can say, "well, who cares" but ultimately all that is is a blatant disregard for me as a person trying to have a conversation. — TimeLine

Well, I am trying to engage you in showing you that it's not words that are ultimately relevant. If you care about life - your life first and foremost - it's not words that matter.

How can one execute without reading all those books. — TimeLine

Most people have executed without reading all those books. You think Mahatma Gandhi read all the philosophers? He did read some religious Scriptures and the like, but you've probably read more than him. You think Mother Theresa was an intellectual genius? What about Dorothy Day? etc.