Yes. All the more reason for fairness to be an objective. And returning to your original formulation, it seems to me that the failures of proscriptive justice to achieve its ends are more to blame for the problems requiring prescriptive justice than the successes of prescriptive justice contribute to the overall social good.

Sure. Which doesn't mean that the human tendency to fairness derives from the egalitarian school. Rather, the egalitarian school is a codification of the human tendency to fairness, as is the entire concept of justice. Indeed, our modern concept and use of rationality assumes the ideals of fairness and equality. Prejudices are seen as 'anti-rational'. Rightly so, since they are a foreshortening of the rational perspective.

But that is merely an egalitarian ideal whose actualisation is an ongoing process where social mobility is still a factor holding it back due to hidden nepotisms still pervading a meritocratic society. — invicta

What is merely an egalitarian ideal?

The justice system is mainly concerned with proscriptive justice and hence with punishment. Retributive justice. It is unlikely that this aspect of justice can ever be made or considered perfect. On the other hand, the more universal form of justice, distributive justice, is more prescriptive in nature, and is not encapsulated by any single institution or social mechanism, but is in effect the underlying principle governing the operations of all social institutions. The education system needs to be just (universal availability). The labour-market needs to be just (fair compensation, universal availability). Etc. Justice as fairness should be seen as an ideal and a goal. In that sense, it is possible.

Really? I think AI puts out derivative crap so far. — Benkei

I agree. AI is quite overrated. I asked ChatGPT to analyze a section of Luhmann's social systems theory as a reading aid and it completely Darwinized the central concept, entirely missing the point of systems autonomy. It subsequently acknowledge it was a 'significant mistake.'

Best foot forward time for Mr. Chomsky. What a coup. I thought I was dreaming when I read the post.

I had forgotten that you already had made this great suggestion here when I replied to Marchesk over there. It seems like we are in broad agreement. — Pierre-Normand

:up:

The conditions of the possibility of there being an argument. In this case, the perspective of the self that is actually offering the idea and is engaged in a dialogic process with an "other self" or other.

:roll:

The self is the personal perspective of thought. If someone says "The self is a myth," they are actively perpetuating the myth, while simultaneously claiming to deny it. In other words, acting in bad faith and inconsistently with respect to the transcendental conditions of the production of the idea.

I don't have an internal dialogue — Pierre-Normand

Yes, in a dialogue with ChatGPT I suggested that the addition of an 'executive internal chat' function constantly analyzing its own responses in a contextually driven manner would greatly improve its learning capabilities. It agreed.

I see this as the only viable method to achieve something akin to natural human consciousness.

This is something that has been under discussion for some days now in the threads on Heidegger. I started this topic based on just this problem. — Fooloso4

I see. Offering that contextualization as part of your OP would have clarified things greatly......

The first step is to acknowledge the problem. I can offer no solutions at the institutional level. On a personal level I attempt to speak and write simply and clearly. — Fooloso4

This addendum would have made me appreciate the original OP more.

There is no substitute for clarity, either of expression or of perception.

Must it be balanced? What does this mean? Wherein lies the balance? The good with the bad? The positive with the negative? What is the balance that turns my claim that:

Philosophy has become in large part insular and self-referential.
— Fooloso4

from something that is not valid into something that is? — Fooloso4

Because that generalization clearly doesn't hold for the entire spectrum of philosophical writing. Possibly it is true for the category that troubles you. Because you haven't offered any suggestions for reconciliation or remediation of the issue. Because this unconstructive approach itself is nihilistic, which is how you are characterizing what you are criticizing.

Let’s name names. Who in particular do you have in mind? Here’s a starter list of philosophers, half of whom are actively writing, who I don’t associate with your characterization: — Joshs

Exactly. Criticism is only valid if it is balanced.

↪Fooloso4 :clap: Yes, it seems the sophists have won, taking over the academy (pace Plato et al). Old story though, at least since the scholastics. — 180 Proof

Interesting choice of example since the sophists were considered among the best teachers of the ancient world. Especially given the tenor of the op, which is generalized and critical, but without providing or offering a balance. Provocative but perhaps sophistical?

I believe there have always been competing traditions in philosophy, including the insular-academic and the opposite. However people represent a huge variety of backgrounds and motivations, which is why there is and needs to be a spectrum of both an accepted mainstream and alternative approaches. Something for everyone. The very philosopher you think typifies the worst may be meaningful and valuable to someone else.

Philosophy is not an end in itself, it is a tool. In fact, philosophies we dislike have much to teach us, about ourselves, if nothing else. I find a few things genuinely unreadable. But most things, even if they rub me the wrong way, I manage to muddle through. Usually there is something rewarding in there somewhere.

I also think looking at experience from the inside is interesting. — T Clark

Yes. And is this inside look at experience what we are really trying to grasp? Isn't that also the locus of the experience of knowing?

That is painfully true, as evidenced by just about every related discussion here on the forum. Be that as it may, with current issues about AI, it looks like it's going from an interesting philosophical problem to a practical political and social one. — T Clark

And yet isn't it fundamentally an experiential question? Is studying the nature of consciousness equivalent to actually charting the boundaries of consciousness? Or is it just a lot of talking about consciousness? Personally, I believe the boundaries have to be studied with severe existential commitment, otherwise, it is mostly just words.

Theory of Society, Volume 2
Niklas Luhmann

Volume one became painfully theoretical and abstract about the mid-point. However volume two appears to have a more humanistic orientation.

I am not suggesting that any level of 'telepathy' between humans is impossible, but it is true, that from a 'naturalist' position, and from a quantum physics position, science would be tasked to find the 'carrier particle' that causes telepathy and consciousness. Just like the search for the graviton, currently continues.
This is probably why I still love string theory.
Consciousness could then be just another vibrating string state! Easy peasy! :halo:
String theory at is base is a great KISS theory. Keep It Simple Stupid :grin: — universeness

I feel that way about systems theory. You don't need to over-specify the nature of the mechanism (behind social consciousness) given its evident operation. Again, exactly how neural networks function. They work by exploiting hidden (abstract) information, for which their own successful operations are the best expression or evidence.

Other people and other measuring devices can then confirm or conflict with MY interpretation of the event. — universeness

Yes, but intrinsically there is a social dimension to cognition, which then is an additional factor to consider. Hive minds evidence this clearly. There is no reason to suppose that higher species lose or abandon these capacities. It's a pretty common systems-theoretic gloss to expand the concept of consciousness in the way you criticize, but there is no need to assume it or even address it. The systems-phenomena speak for themselves.

Yeah, but even if all that Sheldrake claims, eventually turns out to be true, how much would that increase the personal credence level YOU assign to such as panpsychism?
For me, my answer would be, not much! I still have a credence level of around 1%. — universeness

All that would have to be true is that somehow information is affecting reality (which it clearly does) and is capable of being stored in such a way that it is not trivially evident, but is accessible and amenable to neural processing. And this is precisely how neural networks function, by processing inputs in hidden layers, with respect to confirming/disconfirming feedback, they exploit abstract relationships without necessarily even identifying what those are. In which case, social consciousness, hive mind, even panpsychism aren't in any way mysterious or non-scientific.

I am not convinced that such evidence, proves that information can be passed between 'conscious' creatures via morphic resonance and morphic fields. But even if it does, that does not mean consciousness is not 'what the brain does,' it would mean that perhaps information can be passed/correlated via some quantum phenomena such as entanglement (as Sheldrake himself has suggested). — universeness

Yes, and/or that information is a naturalistic feature. If there is an 'information manifold,' however, it would seem to prima facie vastly expand, not contract, the scope of the science of consciousness.

I am toying with the idea of doing a CPR reading group here on TPF. I’ve read it once but feel I didn’t really crack it. — Jamal

I know that feeling. I only really felt like Being and Time started to gel on the fifth reading. I will read the CPR at least once more in my life though.

Consciousness is a phenomenon of the brain, which needs interaction with the environment to awaken its dispositional knowledge, which, if absent, doesn't lead anywhere. — Manuel

Consciousness is the complex product of this organism-environment system indeed. Problems arise when abstracting from this systemic nature, whether as a phenomenon of the brain, as you describe it, or as some kind of subjectively idealized reason. Neuroscience is no more - or less - relevant to consciousness than any other science; it is part of its presentation.

Introductions are great for bringing a lot of material into a very wide focus. I think of Heidegger's Intro to Metaphysics. Adorno is on my list for this year and this seems a great segue back to the CPR which I also want to revisit.

I hear there's a surprise ending. Enjoy!

Rereading Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason by Theodor Adorno, his introductory lecture course given in 1959.

Clear and deep and great fun to read, highly recommended for anyone interested in Kant — Jamal

One for the list.... :up:

À la recherche du temps perdu #5: The Captive / The Fugitive
by Marcel Proust

:100:

I'm not clear what you mean by substantive-performative knowledge. — Ludwig V

As the diagnostician, empirical-situational and implementable in some way. Instrumental knowledge.

↪unenlightened I think the free-and-easy depiction of Zen Buddhism propagated by popular books in the West is nothing like the lived reality. — Wayfarer

I interviewed for admission to the Zen Buddhist monastery on Vaughan Road in Toronto in 1990. I was invited to dinner (vegetarian lasagna) and invited to join in the washing up, then chatted with the teacher. It is certainly a rigorous discipline.

Is there even one standard for "sufficient justification"? Consider a physician who is a diagnostic specialist with forty years of experience. He may be able to diagnose a condition where many others have failed, perhaps without even being able to accurately describe all of the contributing evidence. There is an experiential-expertise element to knowledge as well. Especially knowledge that is substantive-performative.

This is an interesting paper - thanks! — SophistiCat

:up:

I think Popper subscribed to identity theorism; and he had a "three-worlds" theory that seemed to describe a privileged and real status to psychologistic entities. But I was referring specifically to his view on the criterion of falsifiability, which he formalized.

That emergence and consciousness are related? It seems to line up nicely both factually and coherently. That it is impossible to concoct a plausible counter-theory? Well, to be scientifically legitimate, an hypothesis must be falsifiable, if you take Popper's view, so I'm sure there is some plausible theory of non-emergent consciousness.

Actually, I can, in principle, agree with that. Still... I personally don't see how this affects emergence. — Eugen

I'm not sure about "affecting" emergence. But systems theory is all about the reality and nature of processes, and one concept of central concern is emergence. So there's that.

For the last time, no, it is not! I am not embracing or dismissing emergence. — Eugen

Which makes it very strange that you are concerned whether or not there are theories of consciousness which "manage to bypass emergence" then.

Oh, and things are processes. "Thinghood" is just an artefact of the spatio-temporal limitations of cognitive processing. Acorns are trees and trees acorns. That's the beauty of thought: it allows for the overlay of present awareness with systematized protentions and retentions that enable us to "see" things that are otherwise only processes.

Whitehead is a great process metaphysician.

it seems to me you don't understand that reduction entails emergence. You cannot reduce something that wasn't priorly emergent. — Eugen

In which case you have reduced the concept of emergence to simple analyticity. That is discussed in the article regarding the weaking of the concept of weak emergence.

Can you just clarify why you feel that emergence is a problem of some kind?

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/complexity/2022/9956885/

1. The point is, weak vs. strong is a conceptual distinction, not an objective "fact" about reality. If you treat it as something which can't be further elaborated and debated, you have completely denuded the value of the meaning of "emergence."

2. The typical philosophical interpretation of materialism is that consciousness is an epiphenomenon. So it doesn't necessarily avoid emergence, per se, but rather obviates the question. Which was my problem with the topic. It is either question-begging or self-contradictory. If you accept emergence, then consciousness probably is emergent. If you want a non-emergent theory of consciousness, you are left with epiphenomenalism (as a corollary of material reductionism).

There is a clear description for both of them: "Weak emergent properties are said to be properties of a large system that can be predicted or derived by computing the interactions of the system's constituent parts. Strong emergent properties of a system are said to be impossible to predict by computing the interactions of its constituents." — Eugen

Spoken like someone who relies on internet synopses for information. "Impossible to predict" equals "currently unable to predict". Which is what I said.

I don't care what your personal belief is — Eugen

No, it isn't. There's a clear distinction between them. — Eugen

To be clear, there is a clear distinction amongst people who agree that there is a distinction. I don't agree. Strong emergence is characterized by a much greater degree of autonomy between the emergent property and the source domain. This can be attributed to either a greater or lesser degree of understanding. So whatever appears to be a case of strong emergence can be understood in the same way that cases of weak emergence are understood, given a sufficient adequation of knowledge.

Your OP conflates two questions into one, which can be reduced to simple logical truths. Either consciousness is an emergent property or it is not. Either there are emergent properties or there are not.

Emergent properties seem to be trivially empirically evident (the universal phenomenon of evolution, for example). Ergo, it seems highly likely that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon. The alternative, as mentioned, would be reductive materialism.