Well then it's an unfalsifiable "hypothesis" – at most, (perennialist) poetry. And the "appeal to aesthetics" with respect to ontology, howecer, makes "cosmic consciousness" just another empty name like "god" :sparkle: — 180 Proof

Precisely what my thread was not created to debate.

Going for round 2 here, to get a better understanding:
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding by John Locke — Manuel

Nice. I've been wanting to re-read this for some time. Enjoy.

The Philosophy of the Enlightenment
by Ernst Cassirer

Right now my current problem is deciding between Fichte's Foundations of Transcendental Philosophy and Cassirer's Philosophy of the Enlightenment. The pet project I've been bringing into focus is one of "reformation". The enlightenment is a well described socio-intellectual-historical phenomenon. The reformation is, I think, perceived as more of a political period, but it has significant intellectual content. I think that the idea of progress has grown to be sanctified to the extent where things are discarded just because they are not new, which is an obvious mistake. Dewey writes about the fact that what is modern is the most ephemeral thing of all.

As soon as the play, which was Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, began, Partridge was all attention, nor did he break silence till the entrance of the ghost; upon which he asked Jones, "What man that was in the strange dress; something," said he, "like what I have seen in a picture. Sure it is not armour, is it?" Jones answered, "That is the ghost." To which Partridge replied with a smile, "Persuade me to that, sir, if you can."

Henry Fielding, Tom Jones

So, you must then ask, is consiousness something physical, non-physical or both? Does this makes sense? (I hope yes! :smile:) — Alkis Piskas

I think this is your main question? I think that this has been an historical dividing line. However the trans-physical can encompass the physical, but not vice-versa. If you are a hard-materialist-cognitivist, my trans-physical conception of nature can incorporate any physicalist interpretation without conflict.

Isn't it quite apparent that inferring "the universe is conscious" from the universe is inhabited by at least one species of "conscious" beings is a compositional fallacy? — 180 Proof

It is an hypothesis, not a fallacy. It's only a fallacy if it is positively determined to be categorically false.

Isn't it quite apparent that inferring "the universe is conscious" from the universe is inhabited by at least one species of "conscious" beings is a compositional fallacy? — 180 Proof

As mentioned, you really can't teach someone to appreciate the beauty of something. If the idea of a cosmic consciousness doesn't simultaneously satisfy your intellectual and aesthetic intuitions then it doesn't. However it is certain that increased understanding can lead to an increase in the appreciation of beauty. As musicians, whose love of music leads them to devote energy to improving their theoretical and technical expertise, which in turn expands their awareness of the beauty of music.

If I felt as you do, I might follow the discussion and try to appreciate whether the energy being expended in characterizing the idea has merit. Rabbi's dispute fine points of the Torah, whether or not there is specifically a Hebrew God or any God. Does that mean all their mental efforts are worthless? Solving puzzles is a trivial pastime, but people who solve a lot of puzzles can become very good at...solving things.

edit: perhaps it is a question of which ideas can engender the most beautiful constructs? I have always felt eloquence to be one of the most valuable dimensions of philosophical argument. Witness Huxley, Dewey, and of course, Bergson.

That seems too basic a point to contest. The concept of universal mind is ubiquitous in the collection of writings on animism, panpsychism, the whole notion of embodied or embedded consciousness, the systems philosophy writings of Ernst Laszlo. I am reasoning from the standpoint of a person or people who have some intuitive understanding and agreement with the notion and are attempting to expand their understanding characterizing it further. So it wouldn't be the time for me to teach you to appreciate the intuitive beauty of panpsychism.

Maybe this is why some systems focus on identification. That is identification, a factor in conditioning, may preclude entrance to a higher level of consciousness. — ArielAssante

Can you clarify and expand on that a bit for me?

Yes, I'm all-in with peak-experiences Jack. I was an ultra-runner until I my knee gave out. Running 24 hours straight and finding yourself completely alone in primeval forest under an ink-black sky awash with stars on a moonless night 30 km from the nearest population centre is one of the more controlled peak-experiences I've pursued.

Thanks for the reading recommendations, appreciated as always my friend!

However, and unfortunately, I am a little confused with the use of "consciousness" and "awareness". It would be good if you started by offering a definition of both, and how they differ or resemble. — Alkis Piskas

I think, in the context of my post, the whole thing is about conceptualizing consciousness; I would say that is the point. Whatever we are experiencing as consciousness in our biologically constrained form, I think it is a mistake to think that we can authoritatively define it. We can authoritatively experience it, but the significance of cogito ergo sum may not be the same for me as for you.

So, for me, the common-sense or ordinary language usages of both consciousness and awareness are sufficient, for those reasons. Splitting hairs about what is or isn't conscious, if there are unconscious processes, etc., isn't the focus of my descriptions. I assume that everything which is constitutive of consciousness is consciousness, even if some people call it unconscious, or id, or superego.

Possible; I just feel we don't/can't do leaps; graduated progress is the usual deal. — Agent Smith

In the field of evolutionary biology progress by leaps is known as "saltation" - there are some interesting phenomena documented with respect to population genetics, but it is pretty technical/statistical so it requires some interpretation.

As I see it, our conception of cosmic consciousness (oooh!) is limited to only scaling up what is possible with human consciousness; leaps in consciousness - taking the mind to the next level - is, to my reckoning, beyond our ken. That is not to say we can't speculate; we can and we should. After all something's better than nothing, oui mes amies? — Agent Smith

But doesn't reason actually work in the direction of transcending one level towards another, as I attempted to describe? A highly trained musician can actually perceive elements in a performance that untrained listeners cannot. There is an experiment where a cat's brain does not even register a particular tone (that is within it's audible range) until the tone has been paired with an associated significant stimulus (like food). In A Neurocomputational Perspective Paul Churchland suggests that attaining a sufficient insight into the mechanics of the mind might generate an associated direct awareness thereof.

I think that to the extent that our understanding expands, our awareness likewise expands, in the direction of transcending the boundaries of the physical. And yes, I'm certain language is one of the tools that facilitates that expansion. The trick may be not to allow that expanding awareness to be bound to expectations or preconceptions that may no longer be applicable.

Your odds of becoming a millionaire/billionaire have just gone up mon ami! — Agent Smith

:rofl:

Yes, it is all going into GICs (which are the highest rate long-term deposits in Canada). I'm actually pleased to find that, other than expanding my library a little more aggressively, I'm not really motivated to make any impulsive purchases. I did buy a Mini Cooper (which I've always wanted) but it was time for a new car (my 2004 Ranger is getting up there and I don't need a truck anymore) and it wasn't outrageously expensive, fairly economical actually.

Ok, so in a sense you want to de-mystify mysticism without denying or contradicting it? That works for me as it is consistent with a naturalistic philosophy also.

In epistemology there isn't room for another source of knowledge besides empirical observation and rational thought, for those concepts are considered exhaustive by definition. So to relate mysticism to epistemology requires translating the methods, premises and conclusions of mysticism into the standard epistemological concepts people are already familiar with. — sime

Ok. But yours is the first mention of epistemology in the thread. Are you suggesting the mysticism isn't rational?

As I see it, spirituality/mysticism involves assigning significance to something that transcends what is generally experienced as empirical. Now, not to put to fine a point upon it, but consciousness itself meets this criterion. Which is a pretty common theme of spirituality. Consciousness is a bridge.

Karma is the law of cause and effect. I always thought it was a pretty straightforward concept.....

Clarence Williams - Ida.

I live for vintage jazz. And really smooth chamber, or baroque.

However, it may also be said that the perspective of realism may be too flat, because perception is so bound up with awareness, almost breaking down or calling into question the separation of subject and objects of perception. — Jack Cummins

Too, I think, perception and awareness are essentially integrated with action. In a sense, we only perceive that which we "push up against". Which raises a whole lot more questions about subjects and objects.

DId you know the phrase "perennial philosophy" (the title of that book) came from Leibniz and referred to the fundamental reality underlying our own existence? Just read that in The Intelligence of the Cosmos by Laszlo... :)

ok. well if we're adapting to nature, and there is more to nature than fits in the current scientific worldview, then it wouldn't be so virtuous. Since the history of science is full of paradigm shifts, this would seem to be a reasonable hypothesis. The scientific method has evolved, who is to say that it isn't still evolving? A thousand years from now, our science may be as unrecognizable as alchemy.

The solution to the problem of misusing a tool is to stop misusing the tool ....Nothing mentioned yet suggests a demonstrably more adaptive alternative to modern science which, if there were such an alternative, would be reasonable to consider. — 180 Proof

Reasonable suggestion. But...this also depends on the criteria of what is considerred "adaptive," which to a large extent are enmeshed with the objectives and methods of science. So a bit of a vicious circularity there.

Seriously though. Even if so-called mystics are reasoning in a domain of ambiguities and uncertainties, the values they espouse are concrete and practical. Such that mankind most likely would be better off having adopted them. One wonders if the underlying motivation of the advocates of the ordinary is just that they have not yet evolved to the point where they are capable of embracing the ethics of the extraordinary.

Eg. Eating a sandwich is pretty ordinary. But if you think of everything that goes into the making of a sandwhich, and then went into the making of you, its quite extraordinary. — Yohan

Depends what you eat before you eat the sandwich... :lol:

Everything is a miracle; each thing is not. — 180 Proof

:chin:

Can't ideas be stolen from forums? — TiredThinker

I would say an idea is the one thing that can't ever be truly stolen.

The theme of this thread is pretty much addressed by the book I'm currently reading, The Intelligence of the Cosmos, by Ervin Laszlo, a pioneer in the field of systems philosophy. More and more it occurs to me that complex arguments and architectonics cannot create agreement, except where some fundamental mutuality of perspective already exists. Instead, I think what can be compelling are lucid and concise observations that encapsulate contrasts and highlights. Laszlo says, "Einstein remarked that there are two ways to live one's life: as if everything is a miracle, or as if nothing is." I agree. These perspectives are mutually exclusive, and I think people are pulled between or vacillate between the two. I have found that the pursuit of higher meaning is eventually rewarded, which is evidence enough for me.

Well, I happily endorse mysticism within the context of philosophical naturalism. So I would say that philosophy can encompass mysticism. However I feel that philosophers of the material-reductionist variety would reject this. For me, mysticism is on par with ethics when it comes to being a philosophically valid field of inquiry.

I would assume anyone who authentically asks whether mysticism has a valid role must have had at least one experience that qualifies as mystical. So are you asking this question from a mystico-friendly perspective?

The Intelligence of the Cosmos: Why Are We Here? New Answers from the Frontiers of Science
by Ervin Laszlo

No I don't see it that way at all. Each of us has his own truths which consider them as undeniable. I don't see any harm at sharing them with others. — dimosthenis9

Yes, I understood this to be the entire point of your OP. For me, what you are describing as absolute truths translates to "fundamental beliefs". Collingwood calls them absolute presuppositions. Whatever the name, those things which are essential to one's being. I personally think that such constitute the very fabric of what we mean by consciousness (which I guess would be "the" fundamental belief for me). Consciousness is what it commits to believing. I have always called this the "ontological gamble," we stake our existence on the veracity of what we choose to believe.

At most Descartes' "cogito" presupposes existence; — 180 Proof

How can you presuppose existence? What presupposes must exist or it could not presuppose. It is more of a transcendental condition, don't you think?

edit: It is more like a syllogism with the major term omitted. That which thinks exists. Not so much a presupposition as an instantiation. Like a truth-functional truth. If x is red then x is coloured. If I think, I must be.

I'm, not trying to be a dick but I don't understand this either. What is a dialogue with the universe? And how is it a feedback loop? :smile: — Tom Storm

Well, if you receive data (which for you is "evidence") as an input, which is generated as a function of your actions, then that is a feedback loop. You know, cybernetics, systems theory, neural networks, all of that good stuff.

What does this mean? — Tom Storm

That I am in a dialog with the universe by way evidence, I guess would be one way of characterizing it.

Yet still though isn't an evidence for its universal feedback role. — dimosthenis9

See, and I thought that is exactly what my statement describes.

have thought about that too and it's my "secret hope" but I have to be honest with myself and admit that there isn't any evidence at all for that. — dimosthenis9

If there is "evidence" for anything (i.e. evidence has a cognitive and empirical value) then evidence is evidence of the naturalistic role of consciousness....

I mean in the context of a comprehensive naturalism. Consciousness is part of a universal feedback system. The effects of your choices are real.

I would like to hear the facts/things/ideas/rules(name it whatever you want) that you think that apply in universe/cosmos and that we (as humans) can be sure about them. — dimosthenis9

What you do matters.