I feel that random is simply us seeing only part of an equation and not seeing nor understanding the rest of the equation. (X2-Y3)3=7 just because we can't work out the answer to this doesn't mean there isn't one. We may never understand what X or Y mean and only see the result of 7 and therefore we assume that 7 is random if 7 is the result. If you roll a dice forces are constantly acting upon in at a rate that would be extremely difficult to track every positioning of every atom, the effect fo gravity, the resistance from the air and a huge amount of other things we might need to take into account in order to predict with 100% accuracy which side the dice will land on, because we can't do the ridiculous math involved to predict the exact result it appears random to us. of course when it comes to determinism i see the equation as stretching infinitely in both directions and is mind boggling beyond comprehension dictating where every atom, electron, neutron and so on will react. Since any "choice" is predetermined by past "choices"/outcomes they too are predetermined infinitely back in time at it would be going forwards.

if determinism is to be true then what would make up said hopes, dreams etc. would also be the result of previous experiences, the genetic traits and the environment that surrounds me. free will would mean that out of options a) b) c) & d) I would be able to pick c) knowing it was possible for me to pick any other option. free will is the embodiment of wishful thinking in relation to past, present and future, it is like saying I could have chosen differently when the results are that I didn't choose any differently out of the options and everything about me and my environment would lead me to make the same choice again if given the same exact parameters without any knowledge of the future to turn me one way or another. Free will would be the idea that you could even with everything pointing you to choose option c) and without any extra knowledge/experience/change in environment/change in genetic make up you chose differently somehow.

And thats completely fine, I was only trying to reconfirm things.

I suppose it doesn't need a purpose,I was trying to say that if humans can be seen as cogs in a machine and that each individual cog moved things forward regardless of how they behaved that simply existing is the purpose of the cog as it still moves things along.

So that is where your stand point on whether free will exists or not that you belive that the choices you make are your own and therefore do not think about the possibility that it is otherwise too much as you think it to be irrelevant.

sorry for the vagueness (i'm not the best at putting my ideas across so try use examples where I can.

I'm trying to say that if hard determinism as you phrase it is true that one of the purpose or "the meaning of life, the universe and everything" is simply that we follow through with our predetermined fates as is the only way things could be. Existence in of itself is the purpose/meaning regardless of how much of a letdown that might be compared to the original answer of 42.

In that case what about the thought that given the culmination of you as a person (the past experiences, environment etc.) led you to "make the choice" to ignore it. regardless of wether you believe you are making the choice if the decisions you make are the result of there predetermined factors then you have no choice but to ignore or not ignore something.

when I say purpose i mean it in the sense that if we are acting out this play of life all actions that will be performed to make the whole show as it was always going to be could be seen as fate and following fate regardless of wether we try and kick our fates away (which ironically would be exactly as fate would dictate we behave in the same annoying way a friend might always claim to know what you are thinking but this time it is actually inevitable) it could be considered that we are fulfilling a certain purpose or a role in the full picture no matter how minute that role may be in the grand scale of things. Of course this could be my subjective outlook on it in the broadest sense possible, what is the point of me being in existence for example? there doesn't need to be a purpose or reason for us to exist at all if i'm being blunt, however it could be said that just existing itself and the motions we go through throughout our lives is all in accordance with fate and therefore fulfilling part of the greater picture. If you think about it, you were always going to write your response same as myself in kind and this itself is all part of a greater fate that encompasses everything (again like an annoying friend that claims to know what you are about to do/say/think but in all likelihood can and does on a constant basis)

So for you it is something easy to brush to the back of your mind is that what you mean?

And it is part of the big questions in life we ask ourselves, is there any purpose in life? technically you could say there is if such a thing as fate exists, as many of the effects from our existence wouldn't be possible later down the line both good and bad (though good and bad are morally subjective as a concept and a whole other kettle of fish)

It's alright, I realise I can sometimes come across a bit vague.

In all honesty I feel like I am going through the motions of a well rehearsed play that I dont know the script to, a puppet on strings as it is. With that I feel as though I am unable to go against what could be my fate if thats the correct word, I may believe I can change my fate but in fact even that thought process and where it takes me will end at the same predetermined point. In the same way i'm struggling to find wrongdoers accountable as I once did, of course i still get that flash of anger when there are murderers and rapists etc. but instead now I feel pity more than anything, they are trapped to play out the role of villain and there was no escaping their fate even if they had wished they hadn't been dealt an unfortunate hand. For me it is incredibly difficult to put the rose tinted glasses back on without noticing the frames on said glasses, I laugh at a joke and feel bitter that I had no choice but to find it funny, I find myself angry at a wrongdoer and then a moment later find myself feeling pity for them because they cannot help it same way the person cannot help make the joke I laughed at. At the same with emotions like love, what would be the point in loving another human being if it came in the form of chains, you cannot prevent yourself from seeing them as beautiful or witty, suddenly you feel like some force is making you smile and making you love and the worst thing about it is that it's simply the way things are, it is part of being a self aware entity that comes to realise that free will doesn't or may not exist (you never know, could still be proven wrong). that is why i mentioned daniel dennets version of free will where if we pretend it does exist that we will see actions as though they are the product of a persons will and retain the ability to blame people and hold them accountable for said actions. Unfortunately for I cannot accept this version of a free will because it feels like i'd be burying my head in the sand, I feel uneasy of course about feeling compassion towards those who might harm myself or anyone else but I suppose that is part of the package i'm afraid.

Ah, now I see. Sorry i didn't understand where you were coming from How would I feel about the free will that doesn't exist? I think it would make me happy knowing that I am fully responsible for my actions and that others would be responsible for theirs instead of being victims of circumstance we would be accountable in a similar sense you would be able to blame and be blamed for things but also take complete credit. I suppose the feeling of control is what the best thing about it would be. I suppose with the daniel dennet method it would feel like I was pretending to have control in comparison almost or assuming I was in control while ignoring the evidence that shows i wasn't. I think the best thing about a real free will would be that I could truly be the author of my own thoughts and feelings and actions which makes them feel more real than having it all go according to a fate. i'm not 100% sure how those thought/feelings would feel more real perhaps it would be akin to a puppet suddenly being able to choose how it would behave separated from the strings, like a Pinocchio not having strings that force them to do one thing or another. I hope this is understandable (i feel like I may have gone round in circles a few times. probably a sense of freedom (pretty ironic I know, since it's called free will)

I mean it in the sense that there is the divide in opinion on wether free will is real or not but also in a way similar to how daniel dennet describes in a pseudo free will where if we act as though we have it then surely that is similar to having free will (not the most persuading argument to me hence why I am not in the daniel dennet camp). My view is that free will does not exist and cannot exist and is an illusion because all things are predetermined going back infinitely to before the big bang and going forward infinitely even the creating of this discussion and the answers that will be posted here. What I am after is to see the arguments for and against free will but also the thoughts and feelings surrounding those arguments. Of course I could be wrong and my thoughts and feelings on the matter could change if better explanations are given to show whether or not we have free will and how best to think about it whichever way. But i feel like this would be shedding light on better outlooks regarding the topic of free will or lack of free will. I am in full agreement that I see free will as an illusion and would not be able to give a good example to show a real example of a subject having free will that is not bound by the laws of physics, the genetic makeup and the experiences leading up to that point. as such my response to this would be that i do not like the thought that my actions thoughts and feelings could be predetermined well ahead of time and that i lack an actual choice in my own decisions whether the results are favourable or not.

yes but i want to ask about not just the different points of view surrounding free will or lack of free will but how this makes us feel. like if free will is an illusion and if we are basically fleshy predetermined robots how does that make us feel, i don't mean it means me feel sad or dismayed i mean a response like "well, i don't like the idea of being a robot but at the same time it is interesting to wonder how alike we would be to any ai we might create and that there may be something interesting in trying to use that thought process when trying to create artificial intelligence."