cite their sources - holy books and so-called prophets — TheMadFool

Which are still from humans saying something as if it is true.

10. It doesn’t seem like a God’s world, and so fundamentalist literalist Biblical ‘reasons’ cannot apply here, about a ‘fall’, for those already went away. The pride of being special and deserving of reward and avoiding punishment is still a nice wish, though, for us electro-chemical-bio organisms who appear be be as organic as anything else that grows in nature. Hope grants comfort.

11. God’s operations, curiously restricted to be the same as nature’s has us not being able to tell them apart from nature’s, but which is more likely, the natural or the supernatural? Earth is just where it ought to be, in the Goldilocks zone, and not impossibly out near Neptune.

12. And why must there be a truly distinct transcendent, immaterial, intangible, super realm when it would still have to give and take energy in the physical material language, talking its talk and walking its walk? Dubious, plus the speculation of an invisible realm goes nowhere toward it being so, it tending toward making excuses for what ought to be everywhere.

13. So, we can sit on a fence and go to church half the time or estimate the probability either way, but note that there can be no blame for not knowing what can’t be shown for sure. It’s all in what it does for you.

Let us have wine, lovers, song, and laughter—
Water, chastity, prayer the day after.
Such we’ll alternate the rest of our days—
Thus, on the average, we’ll make Hereafter!

spirit — 3017amen

To perk you up and lift your spirit, kind of:

What if its intention — Possibility

Too fundamental for 'intention'. Minds are billions of years into the future.

But it's still a Materialistic Space-Time concept that can't explain its own existence. — Gnomon

No alternative to it.

motivated by the Intention of eternal omnipotential BEING or G*D — Gnomon

Too complex to be fundamental.

In my thesis, the equivalent to your ZPE was eternal Chaos (random potential), which was enformed by Intention into the organization of our Cosmos. — Gnomon

Yes, necessarily random, having no input.

Since, by the law of Logic, no two things in reality can exist in the same space-time, they are necessarily polarized and repel each other. — Gnomon

Perhaps like one is a positive field lump and the other its a negative field lump (trough).

A human programmer — Gnomon

I was a programmer at IBM for 31 years; have now been retired for near 20 years.

attention; will or determination to achieve something — Possibility

Still the same; it's too simple and small.

How might a necessary-fundamental-eternal-capability begin to develop a system of mind? — Possibility

It wouldn't have a little mind from which to intend to develop a larger system of mind.

drawing distinctions between lower life-forms and higher consciousness... . — 3017amen

Great response. Why do we hope, is there survival value to Faith, Hope and Love? — 3017amen

We wish and hope because we want things, such as to ever continue on in an eternal life.

A learned, smart, philosophical person will never attempt either. — god must be atheist

That's what I am saying. The claims can't be preached or taught as if the claims are true; however, this dishonestly is widespread.

What is leap of Faith? — 3017amen

Wishes and hopes.

Christian Existentialist — 3017amen

Still in one of the camps whose 'God' can't be shown, regardless of their claims.

Any takers? — 3017amen

Of course atheism and theism are untenable since their 'truths' can't be shown, and it gets worse, though, than indefensible, in that it is the height of intellectual dishonesty to proclaim them. The same for anything else that can't be shown.

We developed our abilities over a very long time; they weren't just granted to us. I'm not musical, though.

perhaps it was programmed to evolve gradually over eons, via natural processes. — Gnomon

I think the eternal first cause needs to be simple and operate at a tiny level, as near-nothing, to qualify as fundamental, and of course would still be doing its eternal thing now, such as with the quantum fluctuations at the base point energy level. (They actually call it the zero point energy; however, the energy doesn't seem to be zero.)

Virtual particles get produced in pairs, probably because the first cause, not able to halt and be still, has to jiggle/divide something into haves that it then has to put back into the base, and so forth, with these two effects always having to both occur, one ever after the other.

Somehow the pair's virtual particles were driven apart (inflation?) and so became separated and real faster than they could annihilate and return the energy.

The above is sketchy, but once we have some particles persisting a bit, the real 'programming'/'coding' would be done at each new level, such as quarks coding for protons and neutrons, those then coding for atoms, the atoms coding for molecules, molecules for cells, etc.

So, rather than all being coded at once, it occurs in stages, at each stable or semi-stable level.

It's kind of like the way language works. The sentence has its own level of rules and comprehension, as well as still being based on the lower levels of phrases, words, grammar, phonemes, letters, and strokes, and such too for its parts if they need to be attended to at their own level.

Can't really have a full-blown Programmer just sitting around as First, it never having been put together from even more fundamental parts.

I apologize for interrupting your thread — Gnomon

No problem, but, thanks, actually, for it is about the first response addressing a proposition in the OP.

6. Existence/capability has no alternative, given that nonexistence has no being as a source and that there is indeed something, and so existence of something/capability is mandatory, there not being any choice to it. It’s a given; no magic required. Still, it could operate almost as what is called ‘God’, except that it’s not a Mind.

7a. We see that the One of Totality continually transitions/transmutes, never being able to remain as anything particular, which matches its nature supposed due to no information being able to come into the Eternal in the first place that never was, for the One Fundamental Eterne has to be ungenerated and deathless if it is so. But how can there be a finite absolute One with an impossible None outside it?

7b. Or all could be relative if there are no absolutes, for Totality can’t have anything outside it. So then Totality must be relative to itself.

7c. Of course, either way, the capability remains, as necessity, with no alternative, without needing any cause for it to be. It is the Ground of Determination — G.O.D. It has no opposite and so it is not remarkable.

8. Aside from the trivial definition of free will being that without coercion the will is free to operate, and the useless definition of the harmful random will equaling ‘freedom’, the deeper notion of ‘free’ as being original and free of the brain will is of a currency never being able to be stated and cashed in on, leaving ‘determined’ to continue to be the opposite of ‘undetermined’. This stands against a ‘God’.

While eternalism can’t yet be told apart from presentism, the message from both is of a transient ‘now’, whether pre-determined or determined as it goes along. All hope then, is crushed, both for us and the Great Wheel itself having any potency. This is the great humility; all hubris is gone.

It is enough, then, that we have the benefit of experiencing and living life well, sometimes, much more so given this modern age, although still with sweat, tears, and aversive substrates of emotions that those of the future might consider to be barbaric. The early days of humankind were horrendous.

Please only attend to the OP propositions and their continuations directly.

Late Afternoon at the OK Club — Part 4 — The History of All History

Bodleian 28

Life’s spirit to the causeless was near blind.
Quoth I, “If the Beginning you could find—
The Alif—of word, phrase, and uni-verse,
Thou needs not the alphabet—All’s been mined.”

Night is falling and dinner is on the cusp. We take a break from our game of pool, obtain another drink, Houdini’s Vodka Gimlet, from Martin’s bar, and step outside for a moment, and surprisingly hear the following from the night skies:

“I’m the darkest,” says the Shadow to the Night.
“No,” says Midnight, “compared to me you’re bright.”
“You floodlights!” says Starless Space, “Stop your fight.
The darkest plight is the lack of love’s delight!”

We look at each other. She relates:

Days are the cyclic units of time’s pearls—
Beads worn round in the necklace of the months;
They distance themselves, like night echoes,
Into the rosary of the seasons.

Back inside, Ruby Yacht readies to continues her Cosmic description, naming it ‘The History of All History of Our Universe—From the First Instant Unto the Last.”

Martin braces himself for the shower of cosmology that is about to spew forth to bare the rafters of the universe’s beginning, middle, and end, and so he raises three glasses in Bodleian toasts to all and especially to Ruby:

39
My heart’s blood gleams like a melted ruby,
The wealth of mine—the gem that flows in me;
My goblet enshrines my wounded heart’s tears—
Wine is my soul and the cup my body.

87
Bring thy ruby mined, in a crystal thrust,
The drink that raises one up from the dust,
For who knows what breezes blow into gales.
This world is but a passing whirlwind’s gust.

92
Rubies from the vine’s mines are melted up,
As the moon-veil dissolved in the sun’s sup,
In pearled crystal goblets of the flow;
Oh, sparkle with life’s essence sweet—thy cup!



“The Great Wheel of our universe proceeds very quickly at first. At 1E-36 seconds, in a GUT transition in a hell of a short time, the strong force separates from the electro–weak force, the strong force eventually providing for stability and the weak force for changeability, another great balance. Inflation begins, maybe, as a slow rolling scalar field generates negative pressure, causing an exponential expansion of spacetime. The doubling is of a vacuum energy density of 1E73 tons/cm^3. Quantum fluctuations lock in nearly scale invariant 1E-5 variation in energy density. Here the enigma of the ever immortal is undone and unloosed through its portal.”

“Or at least inflation is proposed, for nothing else makes sense yet. The galaxies would seem to be the quantum fluctuations writ large across the night sky.”

She continues, we alternating, “At 1E-34 seconds, inflation quickly ends, the decay of the scalar inflaton field causing reheating. Is this the ‘let there be light moment’? No, photons don’t exist yet, but other massless vector quanta like left and right weak and B-L particles may exist. Things are not well known about this era. You and I are still but a twinkling in the cosmic eye.”

“What is here now was there in the beginning.”

“At1E-34 to 1E-8 seconds, in the quark era, there is the quark gluon plasma, and then quarks and perhaps super particles dominate matter content. At 1E-17 to 1E-15 seconds, SUSY breaking occurs when proposed super partners acquire mass with the LSP expected to have a mass of about 10 Tev. In induced gravity models, this is where mass energy first generates the induced gravity field; gravity is born, and we are grounded. “At 1E-10 seconds, there comes the electroweak transition, when the electroweak force, under the action of the Higgs mechanism, breaks symmetry. The photon is born. Standard model particles acquire mass.”

“Yeah! The photons guide us, as illumination beside us, while the mind whirls round and round, as the ear draws forth the sound, as the eye sees the light, and of the dark the fright. Fear not the proof—it’s the beauty of the truth.”

(To be continued)

It just depends how you word it. — god must be atheist

It's also whatever people do to weigh the balance either way with their guestimations. I don't think we need to sidetrack into math, set theory, probability theory, and truth tables. We have to estimate about what can't be known for sure.

consciousness — 3017amen

wonderment — 3017amen

We are naturally curious and so we are now in the process of asking nature about this complex feat accomplished over a long time. Once there was little or no consciousness in creatures and now it is full blown in us. Since, as in all developments, it wasn't instant, this stands against an All-Might doing it.

This leaves us but with the prospect of a Deity with only the means to start something going that might be workable, it stuttering along through five near extinctions unto our precarious present condition tottering upon a sixth possible extinction from a four degree centigrade global warming rise projected.

5a. It’s still that the religious might then suppose a ‘God’ Deity who is like a scientist who throws a bunch of stuff together that is balanced and energetically reactive enough, but not too much so that it races along too fast, etc., to make for something livable coming out of it, but, again, really, what is a fully formed person-like being doing sitting around beforehand, this also being all the more of a quandary that ever enlarges the question rather than answering it.

5b. But, if it is supposed that life has to come from a Larger Life, then a regress ensues, making this not to be a good template. As for a Deity trying to put workable stuff together, this is much like the idea of a multiverse. We continue to estimate no 'God'.

trying to disprove an existing God (that's a space for emprical questions and answers) — TheWillowOfDarkness

Time for my new thread showing not a disproof but an unlikeliness of 'God'.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/6817/an-estimate-for-no-god

'flat earth' nor 'no flat earth' — Banno

Yes, agnostic on this and all else, thus only probability estimates remain, which may be higher for non invisibles.

It is evident that since neither 'God' nor 'no God' can be shown for thee sure satisfaction of all, the positions of both atheism and theism are indefensible and are thus intellectually dishonest as surety claims, leaving all to have to be truly agnostic, with leanings either way based but on observatonal probability.

Religion is a 'philosophy' with all the questions left out.

on the basis that all individual particulars contingent, manifold, and subject to decay. — Wayfarer

That's fine for their temporary existence as penultimates from some Existent capability.

Yes. A God so devoted to watching humanity must be terribly bored, unless peculiarly obsessed by us. In either case, a sad, strange figure. — Ciceronianus the White

We are God's streaming soap opera reality show.

7'th proposition — Wallows

One cannot speak well about ever invisible unknowns, and so it can't amount to anything and rather becomes a waste of silence, but if it grants comfort then it's fine for one's living choice.

higher esoteric realm. — Wallows

Although Existence is necessity and thus natural, requiring no magic for it to be, it's still the eternal basis of our existence and so there is an awe about it, as the source of us and nature.

1. The concept of the trinity is logically impossible — 3017amen

It doesn't matter, really, as it is not surly established and is already once removed from its base upon a 'God' that isn't established either, as an unknown, for then only the idle chatter of nebulous abstracts of word salads pour forth… even from Newton.

2. The nature of our existence remains unexplained — 3017amen

Cosmic and biological evolution noted over 14 billion years satisfies this.

3. The integer of consciousness and subconsciousness is logically impossible — 3017amen

4. The nature of our consciousness is unexplained — 3017amen

We're not able to inspect the first person private aspect from a public view. Yet, nature made it, as in (2).

HALLEY, NEWTON, AND HOOKE

Halley was a sea captain, a cartographer, a professor
Of geometry, a deputy of the Royal Mint, an astronomer,
And the inventor of the deep-sea diving bell,
And wrote some on magnetism, tides,
Planet motions, and fondly on opium.

He invented the weather map and actuarial table ages,
Even proposed methods to work out the Earth’s old age,
Its distance from the sun, even how to keep fresh fish,
But one thing he didn’t do was to discover Halley’s comet,
For he merely noted that it was yet another return of it.

He made a wager with Robert Hooke, the cell describer,
And with the great and stately Christopher Wren:
They bet upon why the planets’ orbit were ellipses.

Hooke, a known credit-taker,
Claimed he’d solved the problem,
But had to conceal it
So that others could yet know the satisfaction.

Well, Halley became consumed with finding the answer,
So he called upon the Lucasian Mathematics Professor.
Isaac Newton was indeed brilliant beyond measure,
But was solitary, joyless, paranoid—no pleasure.

Once he had inserted a needle in his eye and poked around,
Far inserting the bodkin between the eye and the bone.
Another time, he’d stared at the sun for so very long
That he had to spend many days in a darkened room.

Frustrated by mathematics, Isaac invented the calculus,
And then for twenty-seven years kept it hidden from us.
Likewise, he did the same with the understanding of light
And spectroscopy, keeping it for thirty years in the dark.

For Newton,
Science was but a partial part of his life’s routes,
For much of his time
Was given to alchemy and religious pursuits.

He was wholeheartedly devoted
To the religion of Arianism,
Whose main tenet was
That there could be no Holy Trinity.

Ironically, he worked as a Professor at Trinity College,
The only one there who was not Anglican.

He also spent an inordinate amount of time studying
The floor plan of the lost temple of Solomon the King,
Even learning Hebrew, the better to scan the texts.

Another single minded quest was
To turn base metals into precious ones,
His papers revealing this preoccupation
Over optics and planetary motions and such mentations.

Well, Halley asked Newton what the curve would be
If the planets’ attraction toward the sun was
The reciprocal to the square of their distance from it.
Newton promptly answered, of course, an “ellipse”.

Not finding his calculations of it, Newton not only rewrote it,
But retired for two years to produce his master work,
The Plilosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica.

To Halley’s horror,
Newton refused to release the crucial third volume,
Without which the first two would make little sense.
There had been a dispute between Newton and Hooke
Over the priority of the inverse square law in the book.

That solved by Halley’s diplomacy, the Royal Society
Had pulled out from the publication, failing financially,
For, the year before, there had been a very costly flop
Called The History of Fishes; so, Halley himself popped
The funds for the publication out of his own pocket.

Newton contributed nothing,
As usual, and, to make matters worse,
Halley had just taken a position as the society’s clerk,
They failing to pay the promised 50 pounds to his purse,
Paying him only with very many copies of
The History of Fishes!

Anywho, to that end regarding the last point about the mystery of existence — 3017amen

Well, we have to mention the Trinity to stay on topic. Newton spent much of his life railing against the Trinity. Ironically, he worked at Trinity College. OK, that's done.

Existence isn't a mystery, since it has no alternative; it has to be, with no option not to be.

how is it that we are able to produce unresolved paradox's like those 2 statements above. — 3017amen

They misleadingly stated unpredictables as fact.

we don't know why a lot of things in nature exist — 3017amen

Existence had no alternative and so what is here now was inherent.

So in that sense, since we have these unexplained things happening, why is it such a leap to conclude that the supernatural exists? — 3017amen

Because then that answer becomes all the more explained and so then a higher explanation is needed, over the lesser one, and so forth. So, perhaps the simple is First, with complexity becoming later on.

Ok, our work is done here — 3017amen

The fat lady didn't sing yet.

But really how it turned out…

Myth-Takes of Unconditional Love
And the freedom to be from the Above
And Goodness didn't fill human natura—
Our follies broadcast His soap opera.

Energy is not lost — 3017amen

I’m the All and the One, present-Omni,
For I’m eternal and can neither be
Created nor destroyed, having not a cause,
As the Ground of All—I am Energy.

The being of God does not exclude but rather includes the being of the world" — 3017amen

We are 'God' stuff or 'God' thoughts!

In other news,

‘God’ changed His mind, so it would work better,
From err of His deluge wet and wetter,
Ne’er to kill again by water His kin,
Plus gave Redemption from Original Sin.

versus

‘God’ is unchanging, as ever Perfect,
Knowing and Being all with no defect,
As in all at once and everywhere,
His Self mirrored in us as a Reflect.

but either way or dipolar both,

Reflections of ‘God’ we would have to be,
As the very thoughts imagined in He—
Naught else could exist independently;
This One Effect runs continuously.

But dynamic states through time — 3017amen

A changing 'God' changing/creating events in time, as a presentist 'God', is not at all preferred by deep believers over a timeless eternalist 'God'. But what the bleep do they know?

Yo PoeticU, where you been brother, ha ! — 3017amen

I was/am a poem in stone in my parentheses as a tube-worm in the slab of timeless eternity, traversing from a fetus to a corpse through the 4D Block of God's Static Realm that simply is.

If what you describe as "evil" is required to prevent extinction, then it IS something that we ought to do. So by definition, it is NOT evil. — ZhouBoTong

Kind of like a natural evil of necessity; thus, we survived not in spite of our evil and. violence but because of it. Even our cooperation was for a better hunt and kill.

Holy Spirit — Relativist

Bless your soul with tongues of fire; Holy Spirit burn;
Leave no trace of man’s desire; Holy Spirit turn.
Oh, man, why detest thy constitution;
Doth thou think Nature has a lot to learn?

So Nature got it wrong, the pious say,
In man’s constitution, erring its essay,
Granting so many ways to go astray.
Well, then, Who, do they say, penned this world’s play?

The universe might exist supernaturally, beyond any sense of causation (or time). — 3017amen

This is the other meaning of 'eternal', as timeless and causeless, with no definition/information being able to go into it.

Why the heck do we exist here on Earth?
What mysterious origin gave birth?
What purpose the madness amid the mirth?
Why the heck would a Person be the first?

The invisibility disorder spreads;
“Might be’s” and “maybe’s” clog the fora threads,
Naturally, from meaning’s search in heads,
Ever trying to raise ‘God’ from the dead.

God’s not an ‘answer’ but begs the question,
(fill in the rest?)

the three entities — Jacob-B

‘God’, Divine Human, and Spirit, to boot,
All structured on wishes—what a hoot!
Angels added, too, and Devils haunting.
All as supposed, so, their doings are moot.