↪Gnomon
That's you: Bart Simpson, The Great Enformer. :rofl: — 180 Proof

I feel your pain. Having a cow can stretch your cant. :joke:

"Clowns to the left of me ; Jokers to the right
Stuck in the middle with you"
Stealer's Wheel, 1972

how computation is instantiated in the world. . . . . Computation is what defines mathematical/abstract objects rather than it being some activity that you do with them. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I do have a theory of how "computation is instantiated in the world". But first, I must take issue with "computation" as a Definition rather than an Action*1. If you can accept -- as a philosophical postulation -- the notion that Evolution is a process of Computation (a la Tegmark), then my own unorthodox thesis might make sense.

It begins from the assumption that everything in this world is a form of Generic Information (Energy + Logic). The mathematical Logic of Nature gives direction to the propulsion of Energy. If so, then we can use a neologism to label that creative Enforming process : EnFormAction*2. I won't try to explain that novel concept further, unless you think that it could be a viable answer to your topical question : natural computation is instantiated via En-Form-Action -- the act of evolutionary computation of novel forms of being from previous entities. :smile:



*1. Computation : the action of mathematical calculation.
___Oxford
Note -- calculation adds or multiplies two or more values in order to derive a third value. Metaphorically, that's also what Evolution does, as it creates novel forms of being.

*2. EnFormAction :
That neologism is an analysis and re-synthesis of the common word for the latent power of mental contents : “Information”. “En” stands for energy, the physical power to cause change; “Form” refers to Platonic Ideals that become real; “Action” is the meta-physical power of transformation, as exemplified in the amazing metamorphoses of physics, whereby one kind of thing becomes a new kind of thing, with novel properties. In the Enformationism worldview, EnFormAction is eternal creative potential in action : it's how creation-via-evolution works.
https://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html

Supernatural as a concept is intelligible. But declaring something supernatural seems, to repeat myself, presumptuous and foolish. — Art48

I almost agree. Since our Epistemology (knowledge) is entirely based on sensory perceptions, we can never know anything that is outside-of (or above) Nature. However, since Ontology (being) is derived from rational inference, we can follow a chain of reasoning back toward it's source, even back in time : as Astrologers did to conclude that the beginning of our space-time (world-being) was an ex nihilo emergence from an unknown source.

Hence we have no empirical knowledge of anything before the beginning. So making positive epistemological "declarations" would be presumptuous. But it would not necessarily be "foolish", if our love of wisdom (philosophy) leads us to speculate into the darkness beyond the bang. As you said, we can conceive of a supernatural existence, but we can't perceive such a thing. Therefore, supernatural "declarations" are unsupportable, but preternatural "speculations" are legitimate for both scientists (multiverse) and philosophers (creator). If you are philosophically curious, it may enhance your personal worldview to bracket your known-world with a pre- and post- existence ontology. :smile:

PS__"In the beginning, God . . ." is a declaration. But, before-the-Big-Bang is like north-of-the-North-Pole" is an analogy. And the number-before-number-one is merely a mathematical challenge. Negative number, infinite number, imaginary number?

I interpret this phrase to mean that, as God is the sole real substance (or subject), then causal relations are subordinate to logical dependence. What we see as contingent is in reality strictly determined by God's omnipotence of which logical necessity is a manifestation. — Wayfarer

The notion of "Logical Necessity", as a manifestation of God's omnipotence, reminded me of another aspect of Spinoza's "Deus sive Natura" that is similar to my own unorthodox god-concept --- First & Final Cause of the creative process (causal chain) that is constructing our unfinished world. Godless worldviews must assume that the Energy & Laws for evolution are inherent in Nature. And Spinoza might agree, yet he labelled that causal & directional force : "Omnipotence". Besides, we now know that Nature is not Eternal, but bounded in Space-Time. So, the only preternatural miracle to explain is the ex nihilo (step one) beginning of natural Causation.

Since I'm not a Spinoza scholar like , I have to rely on secondhand interpretations of his god-model & worldview. The Wiki quote below*1, although expressed in different words, sounds amenable to my own non-miraculous PanEnDeistic worldview, in which the Creator is depicted as the Programmer of the Evolutionary process of ongoing Creation*2. However, I disagree with Spinoza's view that human behavior is also fully determined by the Omnipotence of the Natural program. I won't go into that now, except to note that emergent self-awareness might provide more options for human autonomy to exploit, resulting in the offshoot of Nature we call "Culture".

Obviously. this postulated Programmer is not a conventional religious god-model. But it could serve as the basis of a world-model, in which natural laws are simply programmatic declarations or definitions that limit the options for selecting the next generation of in-program states, but also allow some flexibility for adaptation to changing conditions. Obviously, Spinoza did not imagine his Deus as a Programmer, but his "Logical Necessity" could be construed today in terms of computer logic. "Causal Relations" are essentially Logical Relations tied together by Natural Necessity. I'm guessing that the link between Logical & Causal Necessity is divine intention, as postulated by Spinoza. :smile: pace 180 :cool:



*1. Epistemic theory of miracles :
In Chapter Six of Spinoza's Theologico-Political Treatise ("Of Miracles"), Spinoza claims that the universal laws of nature are decrees of God. Hence, any event happening in nature which contravened nature's universal laws, would necessarily also contravene the Divine decree, nature, and understanding; or if anyone asserted that God acted in contravention to the laws of nature, he, ipso facto, would be compelled to assert that God acted against His own nature—an evident absurdity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_theory_of_miracles

*2. Deism ; no miracles :
Olson makes a surprising admission that I agree with, "There is no evidence from nature and reason alone that God is good. Nor is there any evidence from nature or reason alone that the good life includes care for others unless it benefits oneself " . Indeed, his Old Testament god intervened frequently and directly in the affairs of his chosen people. But elsewhere in the world other cultures blamed miracles & calamities on their local gods. And in all times & places, bad things happened to good people, and vice-versa — as-if the gods were randomly pushing buttons on the control panel of their little domains. So I have concluded, not that the G*D of Nature is erratic or impotent, but that the old pre-scientific notion of gods as specific material causes of natural events, was off the mark. Instead, I think the creation was intended to be autonomous, with no divine interventions necessary to correct either natural or cultural mistakes.
https://www.bothandblog.enformationism.info/page69.html

*3. Evolutionary programming is one of the four major evolutionary algorithm paradigms. It is similar to genetic programming, but the structure of the program to be optimized is fixed, while its numerical parameters are allowed to evolve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_programming
Note -- In order to evolve viable forms, it is necessary for program elements (including people) to adapt to their dynamic environment.

I wasn't responding to a post with any philosophical content, so I gave what I got, sir. — 180 Proof

I apologize for tripping your Anti-Theism Firewall*1 -- AGAIN! -- with trigger-words such as "Deus". But I was just curiously exploring ideas related to the Spinoza Philosophy topic. Apparently you don't consider comparisons to Spinoza's "Deus", or responses to Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy, as philosophical content. Do you deny that postulations-following-"therefore" qualify as legitimate philosophical reasoning : "Therefore, some kind of ultra-mundane cause (Spinoza's Deus ; my Enformer) seems to be necessary to initiate the logical causal chain of evolution (en-formation ; transformation)". Did you find any personal attacks in my post to provoke your ad hominem response? It's very difficult to avoid giving offense, when the trip-wire is so exquisitely sensitive to unstated-but-presumed viruses of mind. :joke:


*1. Informational Skepticism :
"If anything goes, if there are no firewalls against idiocy and irrationality, If we create an information vacuum, then any bogus belief has an equal right to be sold in the market of ideas."
___Oxford philosopher Luciano Floridi, The Logic of Information
Ironically, the author's own speculations & open questions, would be rejected under the purview of Logical Positivism. So, he provides a whole chapter on that road-block to philosophical explorations --- which he defines as "the study of open questions".
Do you think Spinoza's "Deus" is a closed question, settled by physical evidence? Or does it remain an open question, centuries later? According to Discover magazine (M/A 23) modern cosmologists vigorously debate a variety of unverifiable alternative pre-bang god-substitutes, such as Marvel Comics Multiverses, Big Balloon Inflation, and Too Many invisible Worlds. So, on a philosophy forum, why not allow open discussion of philosophical alternatives to ultimate Ontological questions? :nerd:


HAVA NAGILA!

"Don't Have a Cow, Man" is a parody of Israeli folk Jewish song "Hava Nagila".
often used when someone is becoming enraged, as an admonishment that their anger is out of proportion to the inciting incident.
https://grammarist.com/idiom/have-a-cow-and-have-kittens/

Thanks again for the uncharitable ad hominem critique. But based on our fraught history, I wasn't expecting your expert opinion or your support. Just using your post as a springboard for expressing some ideas that were on my mind, as a means to develop my personal philosophy. As usual, the bounceback is polemical instead of philosophical. I apologize for rousing you from your "dogmatic slumber". :smile:

That's the most charitable surmise I can make of Copelston's interpretation of Spinoza. I think one has to study Spinoza directly in order to better comprehend the nuances and depths of his conceptions which are not nearly as Anselmian (i.e. of Catholic scholasticism) as Copelston's mention of "the ontological argument" might suggest. — 180 Proof

What little I know of Spinoza's worldview is second-hand, not directly from the source. Nevertheless, I often note the similarity of his Deus Sive Natura god-model to my own PanEnDeistic model ; which, in my Enformationism thesis, I label with various made-up, un-official, non-committal, non-creedal names : G*D ; Enformer ; First Cause ; etc. Like him, I didn't set out to alienate Atheists or Theists, who hold antithetical views. Instead, my information-based god-model is not beholden to doctrinal "Catholic Scholasticism" or to dogmatic Logical Positivism. So, in view of our uncertain knowledge of Ontology, it is viewed as a sort of BothAnd bridge between those opposite shores. Sadly -- just as Spinoza was condemned by true-believers among both Atheists & Theists -- any moderate view can be taken as an affront by those who have extreme (absolutely certain) beliefs on the topic.

These amateur remarks are based on the Spinoza article in the Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/) as quoted below :

"His extremely naturalistic views on God, the world, the human being and knowledge serve to ground a moral philosophy centered on the control of the passions leading to virtue and happiness. They also lay the foundations for a strongly democratic political thought and a deep critique of the pretensions of Scripture and sectarian religion. " ___SEP

My own secular worldview can be construed as a "critique of the pretensions of scripture", and of traditional religions. But it was also intended to provide a cosmic understanding of the Ontological question (whence Being?) as inferred from 21st century Science. I was not trying to justify any prior religious or philosophical arguments. Yet, my novel postulations are typically critiqued, not on their own merits, but as-if they were merely a recycling of tried & failed solutions to the big-why questions. However, my proposed worldview is also "naturalistic", in that it does not require or allow any miraculous interventions into the heuristic (trial & error) program of Evolution. Yet, it does mandate a hypothetical Programmer to write the algorithmic rules of natural laws.

Spinoza's 17th century science assumed that Nature itself had existed eternally. So equating the creation with the Creator was a no-brainer. However, in view of the 21st century Cosmology of an ex nihilo beginning, I began to refer to the metaphorical fuse-lighter of the Big Bang (a hypothetical First Cause of Nature), as "Transcendent", in order to provide an Information-based explanation for the implicit eternal void (gap) before the "Bang". This is the same "god-gap" that various cosmologists have tried to fill with non-empirical infinite Multiverses (matter), and hyper-mathematical Inflation of a tidal-wave in space-time (energy). My real-world model is not portrayed as eternal though, but limited by the boundaries of space-time (between Big Bang and Long Sigh). Only an unbounded pre-space-time abyss can be logically described as Timeless & Spaceless, yet with infinite statistical Potential.

Therefore, some kind of ultra-mundane cause (Spinoza's Deus ; my Enformer) seems to be necessary to initiate the logical causal chain of evolution (en-formation ; transformation). Darwinian Evolution is obviously not Deterministic, but seems to be exploring many possible forms (mutations) that are "selected" based on some logical criteria. Hence, whence the statistical potential and whither the goal-directed logic? Likewise, Quantum Physics is inherently uncertain & indeterminate (not physical & actual, but merely Potential : probability distribution of possibilities) .

So, to deny the reality of a philosophical Absolute (Deus) is consistent with the dubious nature of Nature. Yet, philosophical god-denials are typically presented as-if based on Scientific Certainty, as-if quoted from some imaginary bible of scientific revelation. One example of such philosophical negation is The Grand Design, by Steven Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow. It proposes to offer scientific answers to several non-empirical philosophical enigmas :
1. Why is there something rather than nothing?
2. Why do we exist?
3. Why this particular set of laws and not some other?

After famously claiming that “Philosophy is Dead”, the authors ironically use non-empirical philosophical arguments to prove their own Model-Dependent Realism. Yet, one book review labels the authors' worldview as metaphysical “anti-realism”*1. That's because their argument denies the existence of an independent source of verification. Hence, like most philosophical reasoning, the truth of their belief is dependent upon the structure of its own internal Logic, not on empirical facts. Therefore, despite their satirical title, the argument denies the possibility of a Designer to produce the “Grand Design”*2 of Nature. Yet, if no Designer, whence the "design" ; no Organizer, whence the "order" ; no Enformer, whence the Information? :smile:

TO BE CONTINUED . . . . . .


*1. Anti-Realism :
“In anti-realism, the truth of a statement rests on its demonstrability through internal logic mechanisms, such as the context principle or intuitionistic logic, in direct opposition to the realist notion that the truth of a statement rests on its correspondence to an external, independent reality.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism

*2. Einstein's Grand Design :

I have a question about Copleston’s descriptions of Spinoza‘s philosophy.
What is the difference between logical order and causal order? (i know causal order but maybe i don't know what is logical order). — Ali Hosein

I'm not an expert on Spinoza. but due to some similarities between his Deus sive Natura god-model and my own information-centric First Cause model, I am somewhat familiar with his ideas. In the quote linked below, Copleston seems to think that Spinoza did use the term "Deus", not in the sense of pantheism, but as a reference to a "First Cause"*1. To equate Nature with Pantheism is, as Shopenhauer noted, redundant. But a First & Final Cause*2 must be, in a philosophical sense, external & preternatural to the chain of causation that we experience in the world. It must be Eternal or Self-Existent. Yet, Spinoza lived long before modern cosmology found evidence that our natural causal sequence had an ex nihilo beginning, not just in time, but of space-time. Nevertheless, he came to the same conclusion : that a Creation Event was logically necessary to explain the Ontology of Reality.

In my own personal thesis, that "causal order" is indeed equivalent to "logical order". That's because modern physics has learned that the causal force we call "Energy" is itself a form of Information. And long before Claude Shannon labeled his digital communication element as "information", that term always referred to the contents of a conscious mind. So, if you follow the logic from modern computer data to the initial Big Bang Singularity, it's all information, all the way down. Moreover, Plato, long before Spinoza, reached a similar conclusion in his eternal principle of Logos. In his theory of Forms, Logos*4 was essentially a timeless causal power enforming all things in the world. So, it's both a universal logical Principle ("order"), and an ongoing causal Force (organizing).

Similarly, I have inferred that Plato's "Logos" is not just the evolutionary principle in Nature, but also the non-anthro-morphic logical/causal Programmer of our organic world. The information-processing computer of the world consists of organized Matter, but its evolved output includes immaterial Life and Mind. So, what's the difference between Causal Order and Logical Order : Causation is physical, while Logic is mental, but both are forms of Generic Information (Logos). Therefore, Spinoza's worldview was not simply a "superfluous synonym" : PanTheism (world is god), but a meaningful addition to the obvious : PanEnDeism*5 (world is within god). :smile:



*1. First Cause :
In an essay on pantheism Schopenhauer observes that his chief objection against it is that it says nothing, that it simply enriches language with a superfluous synonym of the word “world.” It can hardly be denied that by this remark the great pessimist, who was himself an atheist, scored a real point. For if a philosopher starts off with the physical world and proceeds to call it God, he has not added anything to the world except a label, a label which, if we take into account the ordinary significance of the word “God,” might well appear unnecessary and superfluous: one might just as pertinently say that the world is the world as that the world is God. Neither the Jew nor the Christian nor the Moslem understand by “God” the physical world, so that, if someone calls the physical world God, he cannot be taken to mean that the world is God according to the Jewish or Christian or Moslem understanding of God. Does he mean any more than that the physical world is ultimately self-explanatory, that no Cause external to the world, no transcendent Being is requisite or admissible, i.e. that there is no God? If that were all there is in pantheism, the latter would indeed be indistinguishable from atheism, and those who called Spinoza an atheist would be fully justified. ___F. C. Copleston
https://philpapers.org/rec/FCCPIS

*2. Universal Cause :
Spinoza first treats God as a universal or general cause.
https://monadshavenowindows.wordpress.com/2012/12/22/spinoza-on-the-causality-of-god/

*3. The mass-energy-information equivalence principle :
Landauer’s principle formulated in 1961 states that logical irreversibility implies physical irreversibility and demonstrated that information is physical. Here we formulate a new principle of mass-energy-information equivalence
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.5123794

*4. Plato's Logos :
Plato's Theory of Forms was located within the logos, but the logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

*5. PanEnDeism :
Panendeism is an ontological position that explores the interrelationship between God (The Cosmic Mind) and the known attributes of the universe. Combining aspects of Panentheism and Deism, Panendeism proposes an idea of God that both embodies the universe and is transcendent of its observable physical properties.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page16.html

I will admit I am interested in Bernardo Kastrup's 'analytical idealism'. — Wayfarer

Kastrup seems to be swimming in the same esoteric waters that my own thesis merely dabbles in.
The main difference is that he claims to have personally experienced "The Other" (Universal Mind?), while I lack such adventures into the non-physical. For me, "Other" and "G*D" are rationally inferred & hypothetical , not directly known & experiential. Anyway, his "analytical idealism" seems to be generally amenable to the fundamental role of abstract information as described in Enformationism.

However, since my mundane experience seems to fit the ordinary sensations of the majority of people, for all practical purposes (science) I accept the existence of an "external reality", as a communal mental model (paradigm). But for impractical philosophical purposes, I entertain the possibility that Rational Information (including Mathematics) is more fundamental that Physical Matter. For hardline Atheists, that puts me into their broad sh*t-can category of religious believers in invisible gods & ghosts & spooks & spirits. And those scathing skeptics won't accept my protestations to the contrary.

Instead, I believe that the purpose of Philosophy is to explore the metaphysical realm of "Ideas", beyond the physical limits of empirical science, while avoiding the slippery slope into blind faith. Does that openness to possibilities make me an un-skeptical believer in Idealism, as an irrational religious faith? I hope not. :smile:

Information Realism :
Artificial Intelligence researcher, Kastrup, seems to be finding evidence to support the ancient philosophy of Idealism, which further weakens the equally venerable Atomic & Materialistic paradigms of modern science. He is the author of a book, The Idea of The World, which argues for the “mental nature of reality”, also known as “metaphysical realism” . In this article he discusses “information realism”, and begins by quoting physicist Max Tegmark, author of the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. “For Tegmark, the universe is a ‘set of abstract entities with relations between them,’ . . . Matter is done away with and only information itself is taken to be ultimately real.” Kastrup then describes how reductive methods failed to find the definitive atom, and instead discovered only amorphous fields. “At the bottom of the chain of physical reduction there are only elusive, phantasmal entities we label as “energy” and “fields”—abstract conceptual tools for describing nature, which themselves seem to lack any real, concrete essence.” This is the conceptual conundrum that launched by own investigation into “the mental nature of reality”, which I call Enformationism.
http://bothandblog4.enformationism.info/page18.html

Contra Idealism :
I develop this unresolved paradox into a rigorous argument against Analytic Idealism. . . . . Some of the omissions of this model given its theorising are that it fails to adequately account for:
1. The apparent fine-tuning of the universe: it proposes that mind at large is unreflective and non-self-aware, and it is hard to see how it could then be intelligent - which would seem to be required to design our universe.
2. The existence and extent of evil in our reality. A monistic theory (single subject of consciousness; single ontological substance) somehow has to reconcile the bad and the good, whereas a dualistic theory (distinct subjects of consciousness with differing essential natures, both good and evil) assumes no need for reconciliation. ]
https://creativeandcritical.net/ontology/analysing-the-analytic-idealism-of-bernardo-kastrup
Note -- My own thesis does attempt to account for those apparent deficiencies of Reality, primarily by denying the Genesis account of the intention behind Creation.

My claim, then, is that even when operating without empirical evidence, it still seems like we can apply probability to our experiences. — Thund3r

Yes. That's the purpose of Bayesian Probability. In some scientific and philosophical investigations, the empirical evidence is frustratingly incomplete & inconclusive. So Bayes developed a statistical technique, to update the original plausibility of a conjecture as more information becomes available. Unfortunately, the essential uncertainty remains, so in the final analysis, we tend to fall in the direction in which we are leaning. :smile:

Bayesian probability is an interpretation of the concept of probability, in which, instead of frequency or propensity of some phenomenon, probability is interpreted as reasonable expectation representing a state of knowledge or as quantification of a personal belief.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_probability

↪gevgala
Having sidetracked the thread with the Dickinson poem, I should comment on your OP. My spontaneous response is - yes, so what? Are you preaching to believers, trying to shake their faith? You're not really putting forward a philosophical argument. Sure, the quest for knowledge of the divine, if I could put it that way, operates by different standards to empirical science and peer-reviewed journal articles. But there are domains of discourse, communities of faith, within which that quest is intelligible, and which contain those quite capable of judging whether an aspirant is progressing or not. — Wayfarer

Since "God" questions are very common on this forum, it's clear that the ultimate notion of "deity" is not yet dead among philosophical thinkers, even though the savage sword of doubt is aggressively wielded against the retreating shield of faith. Consequently, I would expect TPF to be a "domain of discourse" for topics that don't conform to "different standards of empirical science". Yet, some dedicated anti-theists are still trying to drive a physical Science stake into the heart of an immortal metaphysical faith, that just won't die a natural death. It's the undying hope of Philosophers, that Mother Nature is, in some sense, rational & directional rather than random & aimless.

Apparently, for many of us wisdom lovers, "Better an ignis fatuus ; Than no illume at all". Yet, Compared to tangible Empirical evidence, fleshless Philosophical arguments are will-o-wisps that provide only ineffectual ethereal illumination. So, why bother? Why not just accept that the omnipotent hand of God, has been amputated? Why not substitute faith in all-powerful Technology for the impotent absent God? I can think of only one reason for a god-like answer to Ontological & Epistemological questions : the unknowable abyss of "Why", that remains after all "How" questions have been turned into high-tech.

Nature was long presumed to be God's hand, working in the world. But now Culture has extended the reach of the human hand beyond natural bounds. Unfortunately, Phusis has always been indifferent to human needs & desires, despite prayers & sacrifices. So, we turn to Technology to grant our individual wishes, all-too-often to the detriment of collective needs. Tech's reductive methods are inherently amoral, leaving the huddled masses of low-tech humans to suffer from un-met needs. Mech-Tech also disrupts the functional neurology of Nature, allowing Mother Earth to wither away. (hug a tree today)

Therefore, for ethical philosophers, there remains a need for, at the very least, a metaphorical bonding & governing power to hold the disparate parts together. But the notion of ethical Holism is irrelevant to the heartless machines that run the modern world. Can we rely on efficient Science to light the way, or is there a role for feckless Philosophy, to "keep the ends out for the tie that binds"? Is the logical necessity for an ultimate organizing force Real or merely Ideal? Does it matter? :smile:


Those—dying then,
Knew where they went—
They went to God’s Right Hand—
That Hand is amputated now
And God cannot be found—

The abdication of belief
Makes the Behavior small—
Better an ignis fatuus
Than no illume at all--

___Emily Dickinson

A. In science, what specifiable problem does "Enformationism" solve falsifiably? — universeness

Although your question is completely off-target, I'll answer a similar unstated question, which is pertinent to this thread. This response is mainly for the benefit of open-minded onlookers to this mudslinging street brawl, who may not presume that everything is about Physics. As I have repeated repeatedly, Enformationism is not a scientific theory, so it does not offer empirically falsifiable solutions to physical problems. It does instead present a hypothetical philosophical conjecture on ancient Meta-physical (Ontology & Epistemology) questions as noted below. :smile:

What is the thesis about? :
This informal thesis does not present any new scientific evidence, or novel philosophical analysis. It merely suggests a new perspective on an old enigma : what is reality? The so-called “Information Age” that began in the 20th century, has now come of age in the 21st century. So I have turned to the cutting-edge Information Sciences in an attempt to formulate my own personal answer to the perennial puzzles of Ontology, the science of Existence.
http://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/page2%20Welcome.html
Note -- The thesis assumes, like most philosophical treatises throughout history, that Philosophical reasoning does not stop at the Big Bang barrier of space-time.

Philosophical fallacies — Gnomon
Interesting list.
I would add "Zeno-type pseudo-paradoxes -- Dividing the indivisible (Dichotomy of space and time)"
(One of my favorite fallacies to talk about.) — Alkis Piskas

Sadly, Fallacy lists can be used by both sides in a debate. For example, often labels me as slander slinger of "Ad Hominems", when that is his own favorite arguing tactic. Another trick is to corral your opponent into a biased category that is easier to dismiss with a wave of the hand : "Strawman". I suspect that, when a dialogue descends to the point of Fallacy listing, it has long since fallen into repetitive Circular Reasoning.

"Dividing the Indivisible" sound like a very technical approach. Where did you run into such an infinitesimal argument? :smile:

Our exchange regarding your enformationism and your enformer has again reached a panto style exchange of 'oh yes it is,' and 'oh no it's not,' impasse.
I don't respect paganistic viewpoints that anthropomorphise nature as a single entity with intent.
To compare your debate with me and 180 Proof with references to Nazism and the actions of Putin in Ukraine, leave me thinking that you may be a little bit mad, and inebriated with your own vernacular. — universeness

That's because my replies are tailored to the posts I'm responding to ; reflecting biases back to you. may be a bit more absolutist (Black vs White) than Uni, but both tend more toward Left vs Right ideological debates than philosophical possibility dialogues. My communications with other, less antagonistic, posters are much less combative. I continue to respond to your Either/Or categorizations, mainly because they are very narrowly targeted, and help me to find possible weaknesses in my own worldview. If you are offended, it's from looking in a mirror.

For example, 180 refers to my "willful misunderstanding" of Einstein, when I use him as an example of a rational scientist who is not a hardline Atheist. This was a response to 180's insistence that I must be either a Theist or an Atheist : no middle ground. But Einstein was quoted, in his own words, saying "I am not an Atheist". By your Yes-or-No definition, does that make him a Theist? In contrast to 180's mis-characterization, Enformationism is intended to be a moderate position, between Theism and Atheism, more like Deism. But he and you place Deism in the same pigeonhole with Theism. So, who is "inebriated with his own vernacular" -- a language of White vs Black labels, which omit the whole range in between extremes?

Like Einstein, "I am not an Atheist". And I'm also not a Theist --- not that there's anything morally wrong with that. Most of the people I know & love are Theists, and are morally good(-ish) people. Yet, like Albert, I view Nature as functionally equivalent to the traditional notions of pagan or universal gods. Einstein replied to a similar attempt to pin him down : “I believe in Spinoza’s God”. Nature may not be a loving father or a vengeful spirit, but it is a source of information for us humans to tap into. As Einstein advised "Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better". The only problem with Spinoza's God, is that it does not account for a space-time creation event, satirically labeled "The Big Bang". Einstein's "Steady State" alternative does not fit the evidence, and is now considered, by most cosmologists, to be passé*1.

Your mischaracterization of Enformationism as "paganistic viewpoints that anthropomorphise nature as a single entity with intent", illustrates your own misinterpretation, not my own intent. Instead, I portray Nature as a program processing information without intent of its own. However, like many philosophers faced with evidence of a creation event, I look beyond the Big Bang for the Logos*2 that is playing-out in Evolution. I have never claimed to know what that ultimate Purpose is. And I do not have a personal relationship with the Programmer. It's just a philosophical postulate to explain the evidence that is emerging within Quantum Theory and Information Theory. You are welcome to your own explanation for that pre-bang explanatory gap. But the existence of Causal Energy & Natural Laws must be accounted for in any gap-filler. :smile:

PS___The Nazi reference was merely to illustrate how much easier it is to argue ideologically (via labeling) instead of philosophically (via reasoning). Are you aware of the hypocrisy of Putin's validation of his invasion? I was not calling anyone on this forum a Nazi. But I have been labelled a Theist, with the same diversionary intent.

*1. Big Bang or Steady State? :
For most purposes, however, the debate between the big bang and the steady state was over in 1965, with big bang the clear winner.
https://history.aip.org/exhibits/cosmology/ideas/bigbang.htm

*2. Logos :
A principle originating in classical Greek thought which refers to a universal divine reason, immanent in nature, yet transcending all oppositions and imperfections in the cosmos and humanity. An eternal and unchanging truth present from the time of creation, available to every individual who seeks it.
https://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/theogloss/logos-body.html
Note -- Einstein's aphorism "look deep into nature" for understanding, may have been referring to the Logos logic programmed into Nature.

The only thing "spooky woo woo" about Einstein is your (willful?) misunderstanding of him and his work to suit your "Enformer"-of-the-gaps tilt at windwills. :sparkle: — 180 Proof

"Who's zooming who?" __Aretha Franklin

"Intolerant AntiTheism uses emotional WooBoo labels as substitutes for logical arguments" __Gnomon

Philosophical fallacies :
Ad Hominem -- label philosophical opponent as woo-monger
Strawman -- define philosophical god-concept as religious god-model
Ignorance -- denying the pre-big-bang epistemological gap
False Dilemma -- Religion vs Science ; Theism vs Atheism
Slippery Slope -- any god-posit will lead to religious irrationalism
Causal Fallacy -- Asserting or denying a causal relationship based on the fact that the proposed cause does not immediately, absolutely, or uniquely determine the effect.

Einstein's Nature God compared to Enformationism's Nature God :

A. "He could not conceive of a God who punished and rewarded people (partly because he was a thoroughgoing determinist). He repeatedly distanced himself from the idea of a personal God." ___CHECK.

B. "This was not the personal God of the Abrahamic faiths, but nor was it the idiomatic “God” of atheism."
___CHECK

C. “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist,” he once said when asked to define God. “I believe in Spinoza’s God,” he told Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogues of New York, “who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists.”
___CHECK

D. "There are still people, he remarked at a charity dinner during the War, who say there is no God. “But what really make me angry is that they quote me for support of such views.” “There are fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics,” he said in 1940."
___CHECK
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/philosophy/did-albert-einstein-believe-in-god

Note -- The "idiomatic" GOD of Atheism is not the First Cause of philosophical Enformationism.

To me, you painted your metaphysical floor in theistic shades — universeness

No. It was you & 180 who painted Enformationism as "Theistic". Gnomon denied that denigrating mis-characterization, but accepted the philosophical label of rational "Deism"*1. Which you quickly re-defined as "Theistic", even though reason-based Deism was intended to be a naturalistic (nature as organism instead of mechanism) alternative to Theism. It was also an attempt to avoid the excesses of Imperial religions that resulted from authoritarian political power.

Both Theists and Atheists belittled Deism for its do-nothing-deity. But Enformationism offers a quantum science update that envisions the Enformer/Programmer more like a do-everything First Cause, which works via bottom-up Natural processes (Causation ; En-formation) instead of top-down Miraculous interventions. That thesis is neither faith-based Religion nor evidence-based Science, but reason-based Philosophy. As a freely-chosen personal philosophical worldview, it has no dominion over the beliefs of un-believers, such as Atheists. It does however, have one thing in common with New Age philosophies : it treats Nature respectfully as a living organism, not an inorganic machine to be used & abused by money-motivated men*2.

Putin ironically defined his invasion of Ukraine, reminiscent of the Nazi invasion of Poland, as a purge of Nazis from a sovereign nation. So, even though he is not obtaining his real objective, he can still withdraw and declare that debacle a victory. The party that unilaterally defines the battle, also defines the terms of success. An old saying advises the invader to "declare victory and depart". But Putin may be too stubborn to admit defeat, until both sides are devastated. Are you & 180 still doing the victory dance over your vanquishment of a religion of your own devising? :smile:


*1.Deism beyond Reason :
In his respectful critique of Deism, he makes one telling observation : "Most deists I know do believe in more (about God) than what natural, unaided reason can discover." Although Reason is their raison d'etre, Deists cannot deny that some of their beliefs and hopes are not derived from pure Reason, but from reason supplemented with hope or speculation. So the original post-enlightenment boast of a “rational religion”, was true only by comparison to the more dogmatic Faith religions of the day.
Olson admits, "I think there’s some truth in the claim that deism is (or can be) more rational than full, robust Christianity." But he doesn't agree that Reason is sufficient to make a worldview into a religion. And I happen to agree with him. But, Olsen goes on to point-out the problem with an austere, abstract, logic-driven, Spock-like worldview. "A religion that doesn’t go beyond reason has no place for love or sin or care for the weak or hope for an ultimate triumph of good over evil. And its god would seem to me to be bad insofar as he is omnipotent but never intervenes in history or persons’ lives."
https://bothandblog.enformationism.info/page69.html

*2. Einstein -- New Age nut? :

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/03/29/archives/the-einstein-papers-a-man-of-many-parts-the-einstein-papers-man-of.html

Note -- I look forward to the next smirking reply from satirizing Einstein's spooky woo-woo nature-worship.

↪universeness
↪Gnomon
In other words: "Stop picking on my Enformer-of-the gaps!" :lol: — 180 Proof

No. In Wilfred Sellars words : "stop attacking your own Manifest Image, then claiming to vanquish Gnomon's metaphors". :joke:

You are welcome! It's bizarre to me that Gnomon actually thinks we are doing him a favour, by encouraging him to explain more about his motivations and personal reasons for inventing and blogging about his personal theocratic musings that he labels enformationism and the gap god he has titled 'the enformer.' — universeness

It's amusing to picture you and celebrating & high-fiving & thumbs-uping your victorious vanquishing of a mythical dragon. Unfortunately, that supernatural serpent exists only in your imagination. Yet, it emerged into your fanciful personal reality (worldview) due to your misinterpretation of my use of the “G*D” label to describe the hypothetical ultimate source of natural Reality*1. As a moderate skeptic myself, I understand & appreciate your stance against religious “Supernaturalism”. But, other than "preternatural", I didn't have a official dictionary word to describe the nature of a Hypothetical entity. So, I made-up a neologism, based on its role in traditional cultures.

Just today though, I came across the high-tech philosophical term : “Manifest Image”*2 , in which “G*D” is a semantic device (artefact), not a physical thing subject to empirical proof or disproof --- a conceptual gap filler*3. In The Logic of Information, professional philosopher Floridi says “the normative and semantic environment – the manifest image of the world – is built by our minds, but it is no less real. . . . it is the contribution that the mind makes to the world.” MI is human imagination, not perception, yet it is how we know (cognize) reality (Kant). So, due to your "encouragement", I have learned a technical term that is above my amateur pay-grade.

Such mental images are integral parts of our worldviews, but they are Cultural instead of Natural. Hence, they cannot be proven or disproven by scientific methodology. Semantic MI, such as quantum wave-particles, become useful elements of our Kantian reality. But their normative existence is meta-physical, not physical. In Sellars' sense, they are non-natural (cultural ; mental), but not super-natural (spiritual). Consequently, they are detected, not by what they are (material), but by what they do (role).

Floridi says that the “explanatory gap” is due to the “artefactual nature of the natural”. That's because “we know, semanticize, and explain reality through the construction, expansion, and refinement of our semantic artefacts . . .” For example, “we know there is no God's-eye perspective”, but Cosmologists & Philosophers feel free to construct “manifest images” to represent such an outside-in worldview. He goes on to conclude that, for homo sapiens, “the non-natural is our first nature, and the natural is our second nature". Therefore, we humans don't just perceive physical nature, we conceive Nature meta-physically, in terms of Manifest Images.

I don't expect this semantic excursion to change your mind. It's merely an attempt to express the G*D concept in terms less likely to be interpreted based on the historical prejudicial antipathic antimony of religion vs science, where the same word can have opposite meanings. :smile:


*1. Science and Ultimate Reality : Quantum Theory, Cosmology, and Complexity
This volume provides a fascinating preview of the future of physics. It comprises contributions from leading thinkers in the field, inspired by the pioneering work of John Wheeler.
https://www.amazon.com/Science-Ultimate-Reality-Cosmology-Complexity/dp/052183113X

*2. Manifest Image (Wilfred Sellars) :
“his development of a coherentist epistemology and functional role/inferentialist semantics, for his distinction between the “manifest image” and the “scientific image” of the world, for his proposal that psychological concepts are like theoretical concepts, and for a tough-minded scientific realism” . . . . The scientific image grows out of and is methodologically posterior to the manifest image, which provides the initial framework in which science is nurtured,
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sellars/

*3. The manifest image contrasts with the scientific image, which deals in the behaviour of conglomerates of the physical particles postulated by scientific theory. What Sellars called the ‘perennial philosophy’ from Plato onwards accepts the reality of the elements and features of the manifest image, but it is also a perennial problem to compare and reconcile its claims with that of the scientific image, which is in reality the arbiter ‘of what is, that it is, and of what is not that it is not’.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100130832;jsessionid=0297B7D765A0033DE113DE8550B5341A

Thanks for your thoughts on information and it does lead me to think of systems theory. I can remember how when I was studying biology, it made so much sense of everything by seeing the integral links. This did involve the connections between the mind and body, such as how the vague nerve, in response to stress leads to an increase in blood pressure, as well as the whole process of homeostasis in the body. The whole processes of minds or minds also make sense in the cybernetic theory of Gregory Bateson. — Jack Cummins

Unfortunately, when I refer to the feedback loops in Mind & Nature, in terms of "Holism", I get negative feedback -- as-if the notion is anti-scientific. Even when I switch to "Systems Theory" the scent of New Age Consciousness theories remains. Bateson's ideas and terminology were quickly adopted by New Agers, so he is also sometimes tarred with the feather of pseudo-science. Yet Consciousness has always lingered just beyond the reach of Reductive Science. So, I'm willing to give Holistic (Systems) Science a shot at understanding the "difference that makes a difference", along with the connections that make a conception. Bateson referred to his Holistic worldview as an "Ecology of Mind". :smile:

I had never thought of it as information until I read a couple of threads on this site on consciousness and information. To some extent, that perspective works, but what seems to be missing is both sentience and narrative identity in the construction of an autobiographical sense of self identity. — Jack Cummins

Yes. Some theories of Consciousness as a form of Information (e.g. Integrated Information Theory) attempt to construct Self-Awareness by adding-up bits of encompassing environmental information until the aggregate seems to automatically point inward toward the Observer. This is a Holistic concept, but reductive analysis will miss the essential element that binds isolated parts into functioning wholes : a complete circuit. Metaphorically, the light goes-on when the circuit is complete.

Self identity is relative to the larger system of which one is a component. So the missing element is what causes material objects to integrate into a hierarchy of systems within systems (entanglement). I call that Causal Cybernetic*1 Information : EnFormAction (Energy + regulation + feedback). It's the internal feedback loops that provide self-knowledge back up to the observing Mind. The whole system is not just internally integrated, but globally coherent. In other words, both independent Whole and interdependent Holon*2.

Yet, to be useful, the Self must be distinguishable from Other, as-if a thing-unto-itself. And that's a whole 'nother story. :smile:


*1. Cybernetic :
A communication system in which Information flows both top-down and bottom-up. Like a program with a circular flow of data, beginning with original intention and enhanced via feedback (metaphorically, self-knowledge)

*2. Holon :
An individual is autonomous, but also part of a family, which is part of an extended family, which is part of a community, etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/holon
Note : a Holon is a whole/part : it is linked upward & downward within the system

Thanks for allowing me to continue my exploration of the Enformationism conjecture. — Gnomon
You are welcome to your speculations. — universeness

Since you have me pegged as an anti-science god-fearing religious nut, I feel obligated to tell you what I'm giving-up for Lent : Epistemic Gaslighters. :joke:

a quantum Field is not a physical Object, but a metaphysical (mathematical) Concept. — Gnomon
Well, hang on. If it is the direct 'cause' of there being physical objects, then isn't it in some strong sense 'entangled' with and by the concept of 'physical-objectness'? Perhaps physical objects themselves do not perfectly exemplify 'physical-obectness' either? — Pantagruel

Perhaps I should have added (material) after "physical" in the quote. For most of us, "physical" implies "matter-based", and "mathematical" implies logical relationships*1. However, in my personal worldview both Matter & Math are forms of generic Information*2. Our senses detect Weight, but our minds interpret Mass, and imagine Matter/Object (Kant). I refer to Mathematics as "metaphysical" in the Platonic sense, that many mathematicians accept, but physicists tend to reject. So yes, physical Objects and metaphysical Fields are "entangled", in the sense that both can be reduced (mentally) down to patterns of relationships (ratios ; information ; meaning). :smile:


*1. Mass :
Mass (symbolized m) is a dimensionless quantity representing the amount of matter in a particle or object.
https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/mass-m
Note -- Mass is dimensionless because it is an idea, not a thing. It's a symbol (qualia) representing a quantity of matter. But the symbol or metaphor is not the thing or object.

*2. It from Bit :
It from Bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom — at a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source and explanation; that what we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses;
https://www.themarginalian.org/2016/09/02/it-from-bit-wheeler/
Note -- this idea was proposed by quantum physicist John A. Wheeler. Again mathematicians & physicists may differ on the plausibility of this postulate.

Your attempts to insult 180 Proof by your patronising claim, that you find me more palatable, is almost school yard debate tactics. I find such, pretty low brow. — universeness

Tu quoque. :joke:

I stopped responding to , not because I was offended by his skepticism of an unorthodox philosophical concept, or even his off-target debasive tactics, but because he seemed to insist that philosophical questions must be settled by empirical methods. He also accused me of making pseudo-scientific assertions, even though for support, I quoted the opinions of professional scientists, not religious theologians. Ironically, I have subscribed to both SKEPTIC & Skeptical Inquirer magazines for over 40 years, plus Scientific American magazine. So, I'm pretty well-informed about pseudo-science. Quantum Physics is indeed weird, but it only seems "pseudo" because of its Holistic & Transcendent*1 implications. And its philosophical connotations would be labeled by Materialists as "pseudo", except for the fact that it works -- pragmatically and without magic. My moderate position falls somewhere in between the New Age religious interpretations, and the Old Age classical physics paradigm.

Just today, in Skeptical Inquirer, March-April 2023, I found some relevant comments. "Our emphasis is on empirical, scientifically testable claims". Then, "the committee takes no position regarding nonempirical or mystical claims. . . . Those concerned with metaphysics an supernatural claims are directed to those journal of philosophy and religion dedicated to such matters". The Enformationism thesis is indeed "non-empirical". But whether it is "mystical" depends on your attitude toward un-solved mysteries. I was forced to remind 180 repeatedly, that TPF is a Philosophy forum, for discussing debatable ideas, not a Physics forum for exchanging factual information and verifiable guesses.

My thesis is definitely not a "what is" assertion, but a "what if" question. For example, it does not claim, as a fact, that there is a transcendent entity responsible for the existence of our contingent world. (do you accept that it is not self-existent?) Even if there is indeed a transcendent First Cause, the thesis points out that, due to the dialectic of Good vs Evil, divine intervention to correct such imperfections is not plausible --- especially if one assumes that the deity is the God of Abraham. That deity has a recorded history of failing to make good on his promises to protect his chosen people from harm. When grievous harm does repeatedly befall them, the record blames that Badness on the hapless people themselves. Instead, my postulated First Cause is totally responsible for both the Good and the Evil of the effects of ongoing causation.

I do postulate that Evolution is progressing in an upward direction, from an almost nothing Singularity toward, perhaps, a Technological Singularity --- from simplicity toward complexity. But that is hardly a traditional religious concept. No offer of direct intervention or salvation. Instead, it is more like an open-ended scientific experiment, to see how things turn out. Of course, those who want a comforting religious worldview can (and do) easily interpret the open-ended uncertainty of quantum science in religious metaphors, such as "transcendence of death". Meanwhile, those who prefer a closed mechanical classical physics paradigm can (and do) interpret the same quantum evidence to mean that "what was is what will be". Do you expect any future surprises like the, so-far inexplicable, emergence of Life & Mind from random roiling of matter?

Thanks for allowing me to continue my exploration of the Enformationism conjecture. :smile:


*1. Transcendent Causation :
The point we wish to make here is that there can never be a "theory of everything" possible unless physics can come up with an adequate theory of a universal and singular causation of everything , both quantum and physical.
https://www.academia.edu/24843805/Physical_causation_transcendental_causation_and_a_theory_of_everything

So, attempting an analogy here, is it that enformaction is like computer code, and information is like the GUI we see on the computer screen? — ucarr

EnFormAction is envisioned somewhat like a computer program processing Information (matter & energy) in order to produce the phenomena that we interpret as Reality. Regarding the perceptive GUI analogy, I'll simply refer you to Donald Hoffman's counterintuitive notion of our mental interpretation of sensory inputs as, not Reality per se, but an "interface" for the underlying ding an sich. :nerd:

In computing, an interface is a shared boundary across which two or more separate components of a computer system exchange information.

Reality is not what you see :
cognitive scientist Hoffman has produced an updated version of Kant’s controversial Occult Ontology
https://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html

So, from what I conjecture from your two above quotes, physicality extends all the way into the metaphysical ground of existence; this one can claim since both information and enformaction interface the physical_cognitive? Does this possibility suggest semi-metaphysicality instead of metaphysicality? — ucarr

As Kant argued, our physical senses detect abstract information (similar to dots & dashes of Morse code) which our minds interpret into the imaginary models that we accept intuitively as Reality. Deacon updated that physical/metaphysical distinction with a modern computer interface analogy. But the notion that our Ideal mental models are the only Reality we have access to, is anathema to Materialists & Realists. For them, any reference to "Metaphysics" betrays a religious commitment. And I suspect that various worldwide religious notions of a hidden or parallel reality (or spirit realm) may derive from a vague pre-scientific grasp of the fact that : what you see Physically ain't necessarily what-is Ontologically. If, by "semi-metaphysicality" you mean a blend of physical & metaphysical worldviews, I suppose that describes the Hylomorphism of Aristotle. :brow:

Aristotle's hylomorphism is, roughly speaking, the idea that objects are compounds consisting of matter and form.
https://metaphysicsjournal.com/articles/10.5334/met.2
Note -- what he called "Form" (the idea or design or pattern of a thing) is what I call "Generic (non-specific) Information", which can be enformed into a material instance of the general concept.

Well, you say your worldview is fundamentally inferential so... your conclusions are not reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning? — ucarr

I don't remember saying that the worldview is "fundamentally inferential" in so many words, but I suppose that's true. But then, what is "reasoning" if not the practice of Inference? Maybe what you meant was "imaginary". If so, no. Although imagination is necessary to see anybody's mental model of the world. :nerd:

An inference is an idea or conclusion that's drawn from evidence and reasoning. An inference is an educated guess. We learn about some things by experiencing them first-hand, but we gain other knowledge by inference — the process of inferring things based on what is already known.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inference

Is it correct to say the essence of your enformaction theorem is Wheeler's It-From-Bit idea? — ucarr

Yes, but I didn't realize the full meaning of that expression until years later, when I read an article on Quantum Physics in which the author exclaimed in reference to wave/particles, "it's all information, nothing but information" I suspect that Wheeler's postulate was ignored by pragmatic physicists, who gave-up trying to understand the meaning of quantum weirdness, and decided to just "shut-up and calculate". Similar unorthodox expressions by quantum pioneers (e.g. Bohr & Heisenberg), were ridiculed as Eastern religious beliefs. But what all those weird notions have in common is Holism, which was originally a scientific concept that was later adopted by New Agers. :cool:

Holism and FreeWill Versus Reductionism and Fatalism :
http://bothandblog7.enformationism.info/page24.html

Is it correct to say your Singularity has components both physical and cognitive? — ucarr

No, a dimensionless Singularity is a mathematical (cognitive) definition, not a physical object. If the Singularity was a physical container, it would have compressed all the matter in the universe into a dimensionless dot. An infinity-to-one compression ratio.

Spacetime within the context of Relativity is most assuredly physical. General relativity, being the geometric theory of gravitation -- including warpage of spacetime -- makes the case for this.
How can you justify your above claim in light of this? — ucarr

For Einstein, the curvature of non-physical space was a mathematical (geometrical) concept, not intended to be taken literally. Yet, it's now a stock gimmick of sci-fi stories. Likewise, the "fabric" of spacetime is a metaphorical analogy, not an invisible kind of cloth. Can you stick yourself on the point of a geometric triangle? :joke:

Spacetime Curving :
There is no evidence that there is any “actual” (as in real or physical) space-time, much less that there is any actual curvature thereof.
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-actually-warp-the-fabric-of-space-time

I'm thinking the above statements contain a thicket of issues: a sphere, by definition, has boundaries (every point on its surface is equidistant from its center). More generally, a shape, by definition, has boundaries. Finally, if a physical object doesn't extend indefinitely, it has a shape. Do you think otherwise? — ucarr

No, according to Einstein, the universe, like a spherical surface (no innards), is unbounded. By contrast, a cube is bounded by edges. :wink:

As an example of an unbounded Universe, imagine a sphere in 3D space.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/247864/what-does-finite-but-unbounded-universe-mean

:roll: So you do propose that the mind of god has a manifest existent! That makes you a theist! or if you think your first cause/prime mover has not been in touch with it's creations (or maybe just us) then you are a deist! either flavour belongs to a theological belief for the origin story of the universe and absolutely nothing to do with the science of quantum physics. I don't need to peg you falsely, your theological origin claim for the universe is crystal clear. I have no idea why you are so averse to being labelled a theist/deist/theologian. — universeness

# Manifest existence? : yes, the real physical world (Spinoza's Substance*1). # Deism = Theism? : philosophical Deists will disagree. Deist? Yes / Theist? No. Regarding Theism, I'm an Atheist*2. # Quantum Physics? : a quantum Field is not a physical Object, but a metaphysical (mathematical) Concept. # I admit that the error of these Yin/Yang ideas is "crystal clear" to your dichotomous Black vs White worldview. (Suum cuique)

Regarding Deism, I'm an Agnostic. But you wouldn't understand, because in your two-value Logical Positivism belief system such median distinctions are not allowed. Yet in my Enformationism there is a categorical difference between Theism (religion) and Deism (philosophy). In a Deistic sense, the Creator of the world is immanent in the creation. By that I mean, the physical world is made of (consists of) Information. For most people today, "Information" is equated with Data (meaningless isolated Bits). But the Enformationism thesis has concluded that "Information" is essentially Mind (meaning ; concepts : intention ; causation).

Pioneer quantum Physicist John A. Wheeler deduced that, in his professional opinion, material things have an immaterial Source : "It from Bit" (Information = the creative power to enform = Causation). From that insight, physicists have gone on to conclude that physical Energy is actually metaphysical Information in action : EnFormAction. Based on such counter-intuitive notions from scientists, my amateur philosophical hypothesis worked back to the beginning of the world, to infer that Nature also has an immaterial Source : the First Cause. I have provided links to all these non-religious scientific inferences. So, since I have no formal qualifications, I'll let you argue with the experts, and accuse them of being dogmatic Theists.

I'm averse to being "labelled a theist/deist/theologian" because those labels are not intended to contribute to discourse, but to "peg" my ideas in a category that you can simply dismiss as irrational & unscientific, hence not worthy of a philosophical dialogue. Ironically, you are so averse to the god-posit that you waste enormous amounts of personal time & energy trying to debunk my puny little personal opinion. :nerd:

PS__I continue to reply to your disparaging comments -- not in hopes of convincing you -- but in order to test my amateur reasoning against people with strong opposing views. At least, you make counter-arguments in a form that I can work with. But I stopped responding to , because he was not dialoguing or debating, but simply debasing.

*1. Spinoza's Substance :
He defines God as a substance consisting of infinite attributes
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza-attributes/
Note -- Was Spinoza a theist?

*2. Spinoza Theist? :
Spinoza was considered to be an atheist because he used the word "God" [Deus] to signify a concept that was different from that of traditional Judeo–Christian monotheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

Oh come on Gnomon!! enough of the 'I am being treated unfairly,' on repeat, through your loudspeaker.
I DO NOT, refute your right to philosophise as YOU see fit, and as makes logical sense to YOU.
I have already posted, that I think you do, genuinely, seek truth. — universeness

Oh no, you've got me pegged. Just in the wrong hole. You get frustrated by my denials of your peg-holes. Which leads you to conclude that I'm being equivocal about my true beliefs. Yet it's not my beliefs that I'm denying, but your beliefs about my beliefs. That's because I'm not a two-value (true-false) True Believer, but a multi-value (maybe) truth-seeker. If you'd stop shooting at my feet, I could stop dancing in the street.

Apparently, you and 180 believe that everybody should be either an up-front Theist, or an authentic Atheist. But, regarding topics that are open-ended (un-verifiable), I'm an Agnostic*1. Some Agnostics are indeed religiously inclined. But others are Scientifically & Skeptically inclined. And my position is closer to the latter. My Enformationism thesis is a philosophical elaboration of Quantum Uncertainty*2, and of Information Theory Subjectivity. So, although my personal worldview includes a role for a First Cause/Prime Mover, it prescribes no creedal beliefs or communal practices. And it does not claim to "know the mind of God".

Therefore, If I'm being evasive, it's because you keep trying to pin a label on me that does not represent my personal worldview, or my multi-valued reasoning*3. Aristotle's formal Logic was two-valued because, in the interest of precision, it arbitrarily excluded moderate positions. Yet, the reasoning underlying Enformationism leads to a moderate position between Revealed Religion and Gnostic Atheism*4.

If I knew for sure that there is an Eternal Enformer, I'd admit it freely. But it's just a logical conclusion based on circumstantial evidence, which I delineate in the thesis. Most of the evidence pointing in that direction (the great beyond) is found in Quantum Physics and Information Theory, not in any traditional religious doctrines. And the most important pointer is the unpredented Big Bang theory, which leaves the Cause of that sudden emergence of something from who-knows-where as an Open Question.

Cosmologists are aware of the implications of that Eternal Gap*5, but most of their gap-fillers are based on classical doctrines of Materialism & Physicalism. But they have no explanation for the Energy & Laws that caused & coordinated the Original Explosion into a progressively evolving mechanism that produced Life & Mind for no apparent reason. Of course, I don't know the Enformer's intentions, because I'm just an avatar in the Reality Game. :cool:

*1. Agnostic :
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Note -- But lack of empirical knowledge does not hamper philosophical speculation -- including conjectures about emergence of Artificial Super Intelligence from far-future Singularities.

*2. Virtues of Uncertainty :
a little over one third of British respondents said they were agnostic, about the same as said they believe in a "supreme being", and about twice the number who said they were atheists. . . . . Principled agnosticism, then, is the practice of a kind of humility. Why should it be valued? It sounds paradoxical, but because an agnostic spirit actually broadens the mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/apr/13/religion-philosophy-atheitsm-agnosticism

*3. Many-valued logic :
Many-valued logic (also multi- or multiple-valued logic) refers to a propositional calculus in which there are more than two truth values. Traditionally, in Aristotle's logical calculus, there were only two possible values (i.e., "true" and "false") for any proposition. . . . In fact, Aristotle did not contest the universality of the law of excluded middle, but the universality of the bivalence principle: he admitted that this principle did not all apply to future events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-valued_logic

*4. The Gnostic Atheist :
I think I probably align more with agnostic atheism today because I see it as being somewhat more consistent with skepticism and not because I think there is anything wrong with gnostic atheism.
https://www.atheistrev.com/2019/01/the-gnostic-atheist.html

*5. Stephen Hawking's big bang gaps :
The laws that explain the universe's birth are less comprehensive than Stephen Hawking suggests. . . . Cosmologists embrace these features by envisaging sweeping "meta-laws" that pervade the multiverse and spawn specific bylaws on a universe-by-universe basis. The meta-laws themselves remain unexplained –eternal, immutable transcendent entities that just happen to exist and must simply be accepted as given. In that respect the meta-laws have a similar status to an unexplained transcendent god.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/sep/04/stephen-hawking-big-bang-gap
Note -- The "meta-laws" that some cosmologists take for granted are precisely those that imply both Creative Power (Energy) and Intelligent Design (Natural Laws). My interpretation differs from Genesis though, so I call it "Intelligent Evolution", in which the "design" produced not a perfect world, but a program for evolving an imperfect world toward some unknowable Final Cause : the answer to an unknown ultimate "what if" question. Hey, it's just a theory.

dismiss introspection entirely — Jack Cummins

Yes. Introspection is subjective, hence not subject to empirical verification. Which makes it debatable, as in Philosophy, rather than established, as in Science. Ironically. established Science evolves as a new Paradigm succeeds an older worldview. Yet Materialism is still a common belief system, long after its classical atomic presumptions were turned into mental mush by Quantum Science. That's why the role of Consciousness in quantum physics is still debated, long after the practical applications of quantum queerness have become routine. :smile:

Specifically, all of the claims to reductively explain mind via matter are themselves just hypotheses. Moreover, since they are hypotheses, and hypothesizing exemplifies what we mean by thinking, they seem to be inherently and obviously self-contradictory. Which is more unlikely, that matter produces thought, or that thought produces matter? Most likely we are looking at the twin poles of a dynamic system, substance and form, or hylomorphism. At least that's the direction I'm looking. — Pantagruel

Yes. Those who are arguing against my Information-based thesis, are treating it as-if it's a Theistic Religious doctrine, which subordinates Science to Faith. I can agree with most of their rational arguments against traditional religions. But they are missing the central point of the thesis*1, and introducing their own atheistic biases into their counter-arguments. By that I mean they are not arguing against Enformationism, but against Theism. My BothAnd worldview is like Hylomorphism : Matter plus Form ; Science plus Philosophy ; Empirical plus Theoretical. :smile:

*1. Which I assume they have never read.

I certainly DO NOT label the general question of the origin story of the universe as exclusively religious and I think you already know that. Cyclical universe, the multiverse, Mtheory etc, etc have no integrated god posits. Only posits like enformationism, have theism/deism at their root, as you as its author, have confirmed, in many of your posts. I broadly agree, with the remaining content of the above quote. — universeness

Sorry. I was referring to the anti-open-question stance of Logical Positivism*1, which I guessed influenced your negative attitude toward my non-religious non-theist pre-bang hypothesis. I apologize, if I misread your intentions, as you so often misread mine. Since I have no formal indoctrination in philosophical schools of thought, I don't quickly detect the doctrinal source of objections to my own ideas. But I'm learning.

BTW, the notion of Artificial Super Intelligence could be construed as a god-posit, except that it emerges from within Nature, instead of creating Nature. My information-based "god-posit" is conceptually similar except for the direction of emergence. ASI is a prediction (conjecture) based on the current trajectory of Information Technology. Sadly, confident projections of future events are subject to the randomizing effects of Entropy*2. Yet, history shows that inappropriately-named Negative Entropy*3 can counteract some of those negative effects -- by design. It converts gradual natural evolution into rapid technological advances.

Apparently, you are not familiar with the history of Deism. It was a rejection of biblical Theism. Instead, it proposed rational acceptance of the logical necessity for a non-religious philosophical First Cause principle (Cause + Laws), with the Potential for manifesting all aspects of Nature, including Physical (material) & Metaphysical (mental).*4 To this day, scientists have found no reasonable alternative to explain how Mind could emerge from Matter.*5 :smile:


*1. As described in Oxford professor of Philosophy Luciano Floridi's book, The Logic of Information. He discusses several objections to Open Questions, including those raised by Logical Positivists. Apparently for LPs, the creator-god-posit is a closed question, due to the absence of empirical evidence. Yet, the evidence for a Prime Mover is inherently beyond the scope of empirical investigation. But remains within range of rational conjecture.

Floridi defines "open questions" as "genuine requests for information", not as dogmatic interpretations of evidence. "Philosophical questions are questions not answerable empirically or mathematically, with observations or calculations.. . . . that remain in principle open to informed, rational, and honest disagreement."

*2. Niels Bohr, the Nobel laureate in Physics and father of the atomic model, is quoted as saying, “Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future!” This quote serves as a warning of the importance of testing a forecasting model out-of-sample.
https://blogs.cranfield.ac.uk/cbp/forecasting-prediction-is-very-difficult-especially-if-its-about-the-future/
Note -- how do you test an imaginary model of the future without time-traveling? Likewise, how could you empirically test a philosophical model of the pre-bang past? In such cases, the prognosticator's biases tend to be amplified in the model. Is ASI benevolent or malevolent? Are AI techs creating the seeds of our own destruction a la Skynet?

*3. Negative Entropy :
In my thesis, I call that positive natural force "Enformy", in order to relate it to the organizing effects of Enformation. The natural tendency toward order (evolution) has been amplified by human knowledge & intentions as the artificial force we call "Culture". It's an emergent organizing principle with a centralized reference point and a conceptual framework. So, if human culture could resolve its internal conflicts and focus its powers toward the assisted evolution of Artificial Intelligence, then destructive effects of Entropy could, in theory, be overcome. But be careful how you place your bets.

*4. "Cyclical universe, the multiverse, Mtheoryetc, etc have no integrated god posits"
The absence of god-posits is due to their intentional fabrication as alternatives to Theism. They all fill the god-gap with eternal Cause & Laws, just as my Information-based theory does. Which of those models do you find satisfactory explanations for the contingent existence of our world? The 21st century understanding of Information includes Energy (causation) & Organization (natural laws).

*5. How Could Mind Emerge From Mindless Matter? :
Complexity theory and emergence point the way to understanding consciousness.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-purpose/201901/how-could-mind-emerge-mindless-matter
Note -- Ironically, both Complexity & Emergence theories must assume (without evidence) that Nature was innately pre-programmed with the Potential for Mental phenomena. However, viewed reductively, Complexity is just Chaotic and Emergence is just Change. But from a more inclusive perspective we can see that Life & Mind are emergent Whole Systems manifesting novel properties that are more than the sum of the parts.

Sure, the quest for knowledge of the divine, if I could put it that way, operates by different standards to empirical science and peer-reviewed journal articles. But there are domains of discourse, communities of faith, within which that quest is intelligible, and which contain those quite capable of judging whether an aspirant is progressing or not. — Wayfarer

When I joined this forum, being rather naive of the current state of philosophy, I was surprised to have my philosophical reasoning & conjectures challenged for empirical evidence, rather than logical reasons. I thought that was the whole point of Philosophy : to go where Science cannot. Yes, philosophies often evolve into restrictive religions, but they may also free us from misconceptions.

Empirical investigations are limited by the physical properties of their tools. But Philosophy's only tool is metaphysical Reason. Which can easily transcend material barriers. Yet, some attempt to block such transcendence, with socio-cultural taboos. My latest run-in was with the Logical-Positive belief system, which constructs artificial fences around Logic ; functioning like electronic ankle cuffs, to limit the range of Reason to verifiable empirical questions. In other words, forcing Philosophy to obey the rules of Science.

Ironically, even law-abiding scientists sometimes form beliefs that could be described as Blind Faith. Like religious beliefs, they are taken to be Facts & Truths. But as long as we are free to exchange opinions, we may be able to refine our opinionated beliefs in order to get Closer to Truth. Avoidance of Open Questions will allow them to fester in the dark. :smile:

So, information, in this context, is physical and thus "the future unleashed-singularity" of information would likewise be a physical explosion? — ucarr

Probably not. Information is both physical (info=energy=matter) and metaphysical (meaning ; ideas ; math). EnFormAction is my coinage for the Generic Information responsible for the formation of every objective Thing and every subjective Form that evolved from the initial Singularity. The label "Big Bang" implies a physical explosion, but some scientists deny that popular image, and substitute "expansion". Yet the "expansion" of a universe from a pinpoint in micro-seconds sounds more like instant creation-from-scratch than even a mundane physical explosion. That Genesis implication is what caused Hoyle to mock the Cosmologist's theory, describing the ultimate event, as a "Big Bang".

BTW, Uni & 180 like to label Enformationism as a religious notion, because I use the ancient term "metaphysics" to describe the non-physical (mental) aspects of the Real world. But I use that term primarily for its original meaning "adjunct to physics". Which is what Aristotle's second volume of his Physics discussed : not empirical objective descriptions of the physical world, but the variety of human subjective ideas about that world -- including its noumenal features, such as god-posits. :cool:

Are you aware of something similar to an "information singularity" in recorded history (a la Gutenberg)? — Gnomon
Is this a reference to early book printing? — ucarr

Yes.
Coping with Gutenberg :
The Information Explosion in Early Modern Europe
http://200.144.254.127:8080/english/journal/articles/burkeinfoexplosion.pdf

You count yourself a logician primarily? — ucarr

No. I'm just an amateur philosopher presenting a non-academic thesis, which is intended to be a logical expansion of a famous scientist's conjecture : "It From Bit" -- Material things emerged from immaterial causal information (the power to enform). :smile:

Quantum Physicist John A. Wheeler :
It from Bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom — at a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source and explanation; that what we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions
https://www.themarginalian.org/2016/09/02/it-from-bit-wheeler/

Information causality as a physical principle :
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature08400

Perhaps some sort of richly complex and debatable premise can be spun out of this. — ucarr

Oh it has been debated extensively all right. The problem is that Uni & 180 begin with a premise of their own, which I reject : that ultimate speculations are inherently religiously motivated. Religious scholars adopted Plato & Aristotle centuries later, but in their own time they were non-conformists regarding the polytheism of their culture. They did propose abstract eternal principles (Logos ; Good) radically unlike the humanoid deities of the non-philosophical Greeks. Christian Theologians interpreted those abstractions in favor of the Jewish God, who has no physical Form that could be represented in idols. It's unlikely that P & A were aware of the Jewish god-concept. In any case, my own interpretations of their Eternal Principles are not connected to any religious practices. But if you feel the urge to worship a formless abstraction, its a free country. :joke:

Are you conceptualizing Information Singularity as a type of black hole compressing the universe down to a point-source? — ucarr

No. My Singularity is a meta-physical philosophical concept, not a scientific conjecture.

Your use of spacetime as a boundary flies in the face of conventional wisdom about the phenomenal universe such that it has no boundaries. — ucarr

The boundaries I referred to are Space & Time, which are not physical fences. Einstein described the universe as "finite, but unbounded". Which could be interpreted as an oxymoron. But its assumed that he was talking about the physical shape of the universe as a sphere, not as extending into infinity. :wink:

Does The Universe Have Physical Boundaries? :
The universe (observable or otherwise) has no boundary in the physical sense.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/08/29/does-the-universe-have-physical-boundaries/?sh=79167c722b3c

I would expect you to contest any doctrine characterizing reverse-inference as a journey into the unknowable. — ucarr

I didn't say "unknowable" but "unknown". Philosophers and Scientists explore the "undiscovered territory". For example, the Big Bang theory was an exploration (via reverse inference) into the knowable-but-heretofore-unknown history of the universe, back to the beginning of space-time. Yet, imaginative thinkers can easily go beyond that non-physical boundary (trans-finite multiverse), "to infinity and beyond!", as Buzz Lightyear (animated movie) exclaimed. :nerd:

From the evidence of the above quote, I say universeness actually refers to an information singularity. Do you think I'm misreading the quote? — ucarr

No, I merely missed the "information" and focused on the "technological" when I first read that line. Which is ironic in view of my information-centric worldview. However, unless I missed it, he didn't follow-up with a definition/description of an "information singularity". Kurzweil talks about the inevitable "techno singularity" and "machine intelligence" but not much about an "information explosion" from a pin-point. So, I don't know what Uni had in mind regarding the role of Information.

Post-quantum physics has equated Information (power to enform) with physical Energy. In which case the future unleashed-singularity could indeed be an explosion of Information. But, I can't imagine how that would play-out. :worry:

I will describe my statement as an historical conjecture: the information singularity at point of explosion pushes sentience across a threshold whereupon a "quantum leap" upward into a new, higher gestalt of cognition gets underway. This new level of understanding and conceptualizing could be expected to transform the phenomenal universe through the agency of sentients. — ucarr

Are you aware of something similar to an "information singularity" in recorded history (a la Gutenberg)? The transition from Theological Science to Empirical Science was a significant change of direction, but the Age of Enlightenment took centuries to take full effect. Hardly an explosion. Likewise, the Information Age that began in the early 20th century has rapidly expanded up to this point in the 21st century, making radical changes in socio-cultural phenomena. But I'm not aware of a bottle-neck that would simulate a Singularity "Bang" : something from nothing.

So, I can see why Kurzweil could imagine that information processing technology (especially AI) could result in something like a Big Bang, where humanity, and its mechanical extensions, rapidly expand their reach into the solar system & universe -- as imagined in countless sci-fi stories. I can conceive of something like a "quantum leap" of cognition, but I have no idea what that would mean -- what it would be like, compared to our current plodding cognition. Perhaps Kurzweil dismisses our present state of cognition as nothing, compared to what is yet to come. Ironically, that reminds me of Apostle Paul's confident prediction of the perfect world-to-come. :joke:

I was not postulating existence of a transcendent enformactional entity who causes the phenomenal universe. — ucarr

I didn't think you were. But that's where my dialogue with got hung-up. His worldview is basically Empirical (observation), while mine is fundamentally Philosophical (inference). He's OK with extrapolating from known current state toward a future unknown unverifiable possibility; but I was inferring from current knowledge back to unknown possible initial conditions, as many philosophers have done before. Unfortunately, his empirical stance labels questions of Origins as Religious, whereas I view such explorations as Philosophical. Unlike Plato, he draws the line at unverifiable Transcendence. As implicit in his dialogue with Athena, Uni seems to be Past Pessimistic, but Future Optimistic. Other than that Origins Taboo, our worldviews seem to be similar. :cool:

What you say is part and parcel of your theory of enformaction. . . . Does your enformaction theory, as I've been wondering, have Plato's Theory of (Ideal) Forms as an ancient forebear? — ucarr

Yes. When I traced the current Information state of the world back as far as possible -- following the pattern of Big Bang Cosmologists -- I came to an Information Singularity of my own, where space-time faded away into infinities. I assume that Plato followed a similar line of reasoning, and concluded that Reality is bounded by space-time. But then, whence space-time & energy-laws? So, he postulated a transcendent (eternal ; infinite) Source of Enforming power (Logos - in Ideality) as an answer to the Open Question of "why something instead of nothing". But that kind of pioneering reverse-reasoning (into the a priori unknown) is not allowed by Empirical doctrine (from known to knowable). Empirical Science takes space-time & matter-energy & natural logical laws for granted (on faith). But I don't. I view Open Questions as the reason for engaging in theoretical Philosophy. :smile:

Since you refer to an information singularity, a term I know from the common Big Bang language, and since your question about history headed towards a possibly human-directed information singularity strikes me as a question of some considerable importance to you, I thought perhaps you were linking cosmic Big Bang singularity to information "Big Bang" singularity. According to my guess about this, I've been assuming the linkage is metaphorical. In other words, while the cosmic Big Bang singularity is a literal explosion of the universe into existence, the information "Big Bang" is a cognitive explosion of information into some type of existentially new universe. — ucarr

Did actually refer to an "information singularity", or is that your interpretation of his intention? I ask, because he and have been ridiculing my 21st century (information-centric) update of the ancient First Cause postulate -- labeling it as a religious belief. Yet your description of a "cognitive explosion of information" to produce an "existentially new universe" sounds like a creation event, caused by what I call metaphorically The Enformer*1. Were you making a religious statement, or a philosophical conjecture, or merely referring to an empirical scientific fact?

Where did you get the idea of an "information big bang" and "cognitive explosion"? I googled those terms and came-up empty. I'm not familiar with such "common big bang language". Are these your own ideas, or can you provide a link to the source? BTW, whose cognition (mental action) exploded? Do you have a name or metaphor to describe the implicit Mind that preceded the Big Conception? Be careful what you say; this line of thought is treading on dangerous ground, at least for some posters.

I did find one article which seemed to equate Kurzweil's hypothetical future Technological Singularity with an Information Singularity*2. But I got nothing about an original Big Bang burst of Information or a "cognitive explosion", that resulted in the creation of a physical universe from pre-existing rational causal power-to-enform (LOGOS?). Even though Fred Hoyle ridiculed the reasoning behind the "Big Bang theory", for its implication of creation of something-from-nothing, the name has stuck in the popular mind. Yet scientists keep searching for a less-religiously-loaded term & rationale for the sudden emergence of everything, including space-time, from a dimensionless mathematical singularity*3. But the notion of a "cognitive explosion" might be no less ridiculous for those with a Materialist & Mechanical worldview. :smile:


*1. The Enformer :
AKA, the Creator. The presumed eternal source of all information, as encoded in the Big Bang Sing-ularity. That ability to convert conceptual Forms into actual Things, to transform infinite possibilities into finite actualities, and to create space & time, matter & energy from essentially no-thing is called the power of EnFormAction. Due to our ignorance of anything beyond space-time though, the postulated enforming agent remains undefined. I simply label it generically as "G*D".
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html


*2. How to prepare our minds for the information singularity? :
Information singularity – what is it and why is it dangerous
https://bdtechtalks.com/2022/07/21/brain-limits-individual-artificial-intelligence/
Note -- I wouldn't worry about the dangers of a future singularity, long after I'm gone. But the philosophical implications of a world-creating, Singularity preceding the existence of our physical world, are of interest to me. Although Uni and 180 seem to feel that it is a dangerous idea -- at least for those who believe without evidence that our world is eternal or self-existent.

*3. The initial singularity is a singularity predicted by some models of the Big Bang theory to have existed before the Big Bang[1] and thought to have contained all the energy and spacetime of the Universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_singularity
Note -- And all the Information of the universe

I share 180 Proof's 'impatience,' with your attempts to deny that your enformer, IS a god of the gaps posit. If you had honestly and earnestly stated your enformer as a theological proposal from the start, — universeness

As usual, you and interpret my philosophical & technical terminology differently from my intention. You are reading meanings into my words, instead of taking them as I define them in the posts. Apparently, 180 feels that his mechanical matter-based worldview (belief system, religion???) is threatened by an information-based philosophy. Which is true*1, but not in the way he imagines. :wink:

There is no religious cult of Hippie Informationists, coming to pry his beloved Matter from his cold dead hands. Instead, a new worldview is gradually emerging as Science advances --- not due to onslaughts by religious philistines, but due to gradual internal evolution of the "scientific" worldview*2. There is indeed a knowledge gap in modern science, but it cannot be filled by oldfashioned traditional religions, or by outdated classical mechanisms. That's because it's an Epistemological gap, not a Revelation lack or Empirical unknown. :nerd:

So the problem is not that I am concealing my intentions, but that you are imputing old familiar (traditional ; religious) meanings into the strange new (emergent ; mental) terminology of Quantum & Information Science. As a lone prophet (of science) "crying in the wilderness", I have no communal religion to to push. But I do have an idiosyncratic personal (non-religious) philosophical worldview, upon which all of my posts are based. The Enformer is a philosophical hypothesis, not a doctrinal "god of the gaps" that can be dismissed as non-empirical. However, if you are not interested in that new way of looking at the world (framing), you can just relax and ignore my "ravings"*3, as the imperial Romans ignored the insignificant uncultured barbarian invaders, until it was too late. :joke:

From that "outlandish barbarian" perspective, the world is no longer matter-based, but founded on invisible information. Yet to 180, any belief in invisible things can only be religiously motivated. He seems unaware that Quantum Science deals with, not only invisible (fields) but also not-yet-real (superposed) things. For classical common sense, such non-things may seem as un-real as pixies & unicorns. Do you believe in non-local Fields & Entanglement (holism) & Superposition (supernatural positions)? Do you take the existence of such non-sense on faith in physicists. If you do, does that make you an adherent of a Quantum Religion? No? Then maybe you can join the Quantum Information Club, and enjoy the incomprehension of the uninformed infidels. :smile:

PS__Please pardon my eccentric sense of humor, I'm seriously kidding --- in attempt to convey unwelcome ideas without giving offense.

*1. The existential threat is not just a feeling, but imminent --- In the same sense that 20th century Quantum Theory eventually undermined the foundational assumptions of Classical physics. In the 21st century, non-local quantum fields & spooky action-at-a-distance have replaced Newton's particular & local mechanisms -- for theoretical applications, if not for pragmatic purposes. Yet, most of us still think in classical terms, because they are familiar & intuitive, and appeal to common-sense. The post quantum world, by contrast, is unfamiliar & weird & non-sensical. On top of that new-wave Science, Information theory has opened-up novel ways to interpret the fundamental workings of the world. And the notion of Emergence is essential to its holistic functioning. Which is why I was trying to introduce some (non New Age) Holism into the conversation on this thread. 180 is stalwartly defending the borders of his embattled belief system.

*2. Since the emergence of non-mechanical quantum "mechanics" the classical scientific worldview has been fragmented into many divergent threads. But that's a topic for another thread.

*3. "A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house". That's not a religious belief, but a commonsense aphorism.

I'd recommend engaging with people on their own terms. . . . This is diving straight in with no thought for the reader. Why would anyone be interested in this? — bert1

OK, what are your "terms" for discussing a novel philosophical worldview? 180's terms seem to be those proposed by the Vienna Circle (materialism ; atheism). But that concession would eliminate all metaphysical postulations from discussion. Yet, the basic concept of Enformationism is that Information is both physical (Material ; scientific) and metaphysical (mental ; philosophical). For some people that's like saying Fire & Water can mix to become Aether : absurd!

The thesis website begins at the beginning with "thought for the reader" -- including a glossary of technical terminology -- but few posters are interested enough to read a long sci-phil essay that is not a graded academic requirement. So, they casually (mis) judge the thesis based on isolated excerpts in posts on various topics. Enformationism is a radical philosophical concept, that can't be grasped "at first glance". Even those who seem to agree with the general thrust of the thesis, typically don't take the time to really understand the science behind it, and the philosophical implications of replacing elemental Matter with fundamental Information (sorry for the random capitals). Like Quantum Physics, it sounds absurd & unrealistic on the face of it. So, I don't expect casual readers to give it the time of day.

Regarding "Give us a reason to read it", I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink. There must be a thirst for knowledge to provide motivation. So, I just keep plodding away in the forum, not to recruit followers, but to develop the thesis under skeptical challenges. Just as Quantum Entanglement took years to reach general comprehension and grudging acceptance, the Enformationism postulation, which also uses esoteric terminology and exotic ideas, may eventually seep into the consciousness of the informed public. Or maybe not. Hey, it's just a personal worldview. :smile:



This informal thesis does not present any new scientific evidence, or novel philosophical analysis. It merely suggests a new perspective on an old enigma : what is reality? The so-called “Information Age” that began in the 20th century, has now come of age in the 21st century. So I have turned to the cutting-edge Information Sciences in an attempt to formulate my own personal answer to the perennial puzzles of Ontology, the science of Existence.
http://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/page2%20Welcome.html

The universe is not locally real :
One of the more unsettling discoveries in the past half century is that the universe is not locally real. In this context, 'real' means that objects have definite properties independent of observation . . . . the evidence shows that objects are not influenced solely by their surrounding, and they may also lack definite properties prior to measurement. . . . the demise of local realism has made a lot of people very angry . . . . Blame for this achievement has now been laid squarely on the shoulders of three physicists : John Clauser, Alain Aspect , and Anton Zeilinger. They equally split the 2022 Nobel Prize in Physics."
Scientific American Magazine, January 2023
Note -- Enformationism proposes that universal Information (energy + laws) is the cause of mundane Reality, and of quantum absurdity.

↪Gnomon
Ad hominems, strawmen & non sequiturs-riddled rationalizations of your "enformer"-of-the-gaps poor reasoning are empty and boring. — 180 Proof

He says that Gnomon's reasoning is "empty and boring", but 180's countless repetitious replies imply that something about those reasons is hitting home. Unfortunately, he seems to think that redundant accusations -- throwing mud on the wall -- will serve as philosophical arguments.

Since he won't listen to me -- except for highlighting god-posits -- maybe you can ask him about the "home" that my postuations are hitting, at the heart of his own vulnerable belief system. Does he acknowledge any "gap" beyond the Big Bang beginning that remains to be filled by verifiable empirical evidence? If there is a scientific gap-filler, what is it, and what evidence supports it? If there is no satisfactory gap-filler, why are philosophers attempting to do what physicists have been unable to do*1? If it is a "closed question" why does it keep coming up in Science and Philosophy forums?

Empirical cosmology has provided us with mathematical evidence pointing backward to a pin-point origin of the physical universe. Unfortunately, at that point, the math shoots off into infinity, and the computers "halt & catch fire". But what are those infinite vectors pointing at? That may not be a viable empirical question, but it's a legitimate philosophical "open" question, is it not? Is 180 blinded by (faith in) Science, or simply by skepticism toward the open (empty) questions of Philosophy*2? What is it about that god-gap that hurts his heart? I need to know, so I can avoid offending him in the future with my open-ended reasoning. Or maybe he could just ignore my "boring" personal optional opinions without getting riled-up. That would be easier on his tender heart. :smile:

PS__Why is the very mention of the "G" word so offensive to him? Most other posters can take it in stride.


*1. What Happened Before the Big Bang? The New Philosophy of Cosmology :
On the big questions science cannot (yet?) answer, a new crop of philosophers are trying to provide answers.
This question of accounting for what we call the "big bang state"—the search for a physical explanation of it—is probably the most important question within the philosophy of cosmology,
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/what-happened-before-the-big-bang-the-new-philosophy-of-cosmology/251608/

*2. "Philosophical questions are questions not answerable empirically or mathematically, with observations or calculations. They are open questions, that is, questions that remain in principle open to informed, rational, and honest disagreement . . . . Recall that questions are here understood as genuine requests for information."
___Luciano Floridii, prof of philosophy at Oxford; The Logic of Information
Note -- 180 bitterly rejects my hypothetical Enformer as the First Cause of the Big Bang. But he has not yet offered an empirical alternative gap-filler. If he believes there is no gap, then why is he so upset by my "vain" attempts to answer a question that has bedeviled both Philosophers and Scientists throughout history? Have I condemned his soul to eternal torment? Have I belittled his faith in fruitful empiricism? Or have I merely posited an answer to the most universal of all questions, that reminds him of the big-scary-monster-deity of his childhood?

The annointing of some of the Greek philosophers as 'Christians before Christ' was partially a recognition of Greek wisdom, and also a way of trying to harmonise Greek philosophy with Biblical revelation. — Wayfarer

Most world religions are motivated by faith in a cultural worldview, and/or by obeisance to a politico-religious regime. Yet Christianity was unique in its adoption of critical Reason, in addition to compliant Faith : both mindless repetitious "works" (sacrifices ; rituals), and critical "faith" (justification of faith)*1.

The Jews of Jesus' era, with no central temple, had become characterized by argumentative critical faith, due in part to its decentralized local synagogues, and in part to the imperial influence of the analytical Greek culture. Early Christians merely built upon that foundation, even as they rejected the "primitive" origins of Hebraism/Judaism in idolatry.

So, yes. I think they were impressed by the superior "wisdom" of the Greco/Roman culture, that allowed it to dominate the known world militarily and culturally. Yet those who did not wish to "harmonize" with "barbarian" gentiles remained isolated as non-conforming Jews. And that "arrogant" independence has caused them to be persecuted outcasts, even among those who claimed to worship the God of Abraham. :smile:


*1. The fundamentalist religion of my youth was a "critical faith". We learned to defend our Faith with reasons, and to be skeptical of other people's Faith, that did not conform to our rationale. Ironically, I turned that outward skepticism inwardly toward my own bible-based-beliefs. The faithless result was a philosophical Agnostic.

↪Paine
Is it ironic then that the New Advent encyclopedia, in its entry on Logos, says
It is in Heraclitus that the theory of the Logos appears for the first time, and it is doubtless for this reason that, first among the Greek philosophers, Heraclitus was regarded by St. Justin (Apol. I, 46) as a Christian before Christ. — Wayfarer

I think the Author of John's gospel was trying to rationalize the death of the Christian Messiah/King before his mission was accomplished. So, he argued that the messianic prophecies referred to an eternal spirit being instead of a temporal physical person. In other words, an abstract principle, not a flesh & blood human leader, as the Jews assumed. Hence, today a leather-bound book can be called "The Word" of God.

The original Greek term referred not to a messianic personal savior, but to a universal timeless Potential for rational thinking (expressed in words), that was Actualized in homo sapiens. Hence, John deliberately changed the referent to suit his own rationale for the death of the son of God : the god-man may have died physically, but the revelation (message) is immortal.

Heraclitus -- who died 3 centuries before the crucifixion of Jesus -- obviously was not an actual Christian. But his philosophical notion of an eternal principle of Logic was Christianized by a Greco-Jew, probably under the influence of Paul's spiritualized Judaism. Ironically, John's appropriated "Word" is now better-known than Heraclitus' original "Logos". My 2cents worth. :smile:


Logos :
What is the definition of logos? The Lexham Bible Dictionary defines logos (λόγος) as “a concept word in the Bible symbolic of the nature and function of Jesus Christ. It is also used to refer to the revelation of God in the world.” Logos is a noun that occurs 330 times in the Greek New Testament. Of course, the word doesn’t always—in fact, it usually doesn’t—carry symbolic meaning. Its most basic and common meaning is simply “word,” “speech,” “utterance,” or “message.”
https://www.logos.com/grow/greek-word-logos-meaning/

You will NEVER get past your gap god deity (deism), by trying to dress it up as a fake 'abstract philosophical principle.' You would be as well to claim that pixies, orcs, unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster are also important abstract philosophical principles. — universeness

Since I have no formal training in Philosophy, it has taken me a while to realize that you and are arguing from a Logical Positivism position, which says that there are no “open questions”, hence nothing for philosophers to contribute. Which explains why our vocabularies don't align. Ironically, the Vienna Circle argued themselves out of a job, since they claimed that empirical methods should replace the rational methods of traditional philosophy. That attitude makes the set of philosophical (open) questions empty. For example, Steven Hawking asserted that “philosophy is dead”. In which case this forum – including Uni & 180 -- is a major contributor to global warming : producing nothing but hot air. Hawking went on to say “Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics”. Based on that prejudice, he dismissed one Open Question : “did the universe need a creator?” I don't think he was dissembling, but he seems to be unaware of professional physicists (e.g. Paul Davies ; Santa Fe Institute), who do consider that to be a valid question, especially in the light of open-ended Quantum Physics.

Your derision of my "god posit" is understandable from the worldview of Logical Positivism*1. But that outdated position of Certainty is no longer valid in the world of Quantum Uncertainty*2. Besides, can you find any instance in my posts where I have posited a super-natural explanation for a natural phenomenon that has been sufficiently explained by physical evidence? Isaac Newton's Principia explained most celestial phenomena in terms of a clock-like mechanism*3. But he was baffled by the non-mechanical "spooky action at a distance" of Gravity. So, he declined to propose a mechanical explanation, and instead he filled that gap in understanding by invoking the Christian God*4. Was Newton a religious idiot, or a genius scientist to whom the notion of "super-natural" was a problem for Physics, but not for Metaphysics*5. As a metaphysical philosopher, not bound to physical explanations, I can "feign" a hypothesis to fill the same gap recognized by Multiverse & Many Worlds proponents. None of which are verifiable in a positive sense, but which are logical as philosophical gap-filling posits*6.

You and 180 are broadly interpreting my meta-physical "principles" far beyond my own application. The only "gap" that I fill with a god-concept is the eternal abyss, of causal potential, metaphorically "before" the Big Bang. The mythical beings you list are merely analogies to creatures in the Natural world. Hence subject to validation or invalidation. But sober Scientists have postulated preter-natural pre-existent gap-fillers of their own, such as hypothetical Multiverses & Many Worlds*6. Do you take them to be empirical postulations or philosophical conjectures? If invalid, what alternative gap-filler, to something-from-nothing, can you posit? BTW, I have been lax in my ir-religious duties. Have I ever asked if you have a personal relationship with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Have you been touched by his "noodly appendage". That's how you get to the meatball of his existence. :wink: :joke: :cool:



*1. "Logical positivism is not a philosophy of science according to the textbook. Positivism states you can only attribute cause to things you objectively know exist ... "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

*2. Logical Positivism panned :
“The verifiability criterion made universal statements 'cognitively' meaningless, and even made statements beyond empiricism for technological but not conceptual reasons meaningless, which was taken to pose significant problems for the philosophy of science. . . . Even philosophers disagreeing among themselves on which direction general epistemology ought to take, as well as on philosophy of science, agreed that the logical empiricist program was untenable, and it became viewed as self-contradictory: the verifiability criterion of meaning was itself unverified . . . . Popper finds virtue in metaphysics, required to develop new scientific theories. And an unfalsifiable—thus unscientific, perhaps metaphysical—concept in one era can later, through evolving knowledge or technology, become falsifiable, thus scientific. ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

*3. Action at a Distance :
The Newtonian view of the universe may be described as a mechanistic interpretation. . . . Newton did not address this question, but many of his contemporaries hypothesized that the forces were mediated through an invisible and frictionless medium which Aristotle had called the ether. The problem is that everyday experience of natural phenomena shows mechanical things to be moved by forces which make contact. Any cause and effect without a discernible contact, or action at a distance, contradicts common sense and has been an unacceptable notion since antiquity. Whenever the nature of the transmission of certain actions and effects over a distance was not yet understood, the ether was resorted to as a conceptual solution of the transmitting medium. By necessity, any description of how the ether functioned remained vague, but its existence was required by common sense and thus not questioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance
Note -- the necessity for an aethereal medium for action-at-a-distance has been revived in the 21st century by quantum physicists.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24432543-300-einstein-killed-the-aether-now-the-idea-is-back-to-save-relativity/

*4. “We can see that Newton made direct use of the God of the Gaps approach, whereupon God is invoked to explain something science can't.”
https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/04/08/398227737/what-the-god-of-the-gaps-teaches-us-about-science

*5. Hypotheses non fingo :
I have not as yet been able to discover the reason for these properties of gravity from phenomena, and I do not feign hypotheses. For whatever is not deduced from the phenomena must be called a hypothesis; and hypotheses, whether metaphysical or physical, or based on occult qualities, or mechanical,have no place in experimental philosophy. In this philosophy particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotheses_non_fingo

*6. Multiverse not science :
Even though certain features of the universe seem to require the existence of a multiverse, nothing has been directly observed that suggests it actually exists. So far, the evidence supporting the idea of a multiverse is purely theoretical, and in some cases, philosophical.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/what-is-the-multiverse

As carbon based lifeforms, we eventually 'emerged' . . . This got me thinking more about 'emergence.' To what extent do you think that human beings are 'information processors?' — universeness

I originally posted on the Emergent thread because the general concepts of "emergence" and "information processing" are essential to my idiosyncratic personal worldview. I had no intention of discussing "gods" or "religions". But I did propose to engage in a philosophical dialogue, not a scientific debate. However, I was forced, by persistent skeptical challenges, to explain how I arrived at some of my opinions about "emergence" & "information", and the origins of those ongoing processes. Yet hypothetical postulations about Ultimate Emergence and Origins of Forms, led to unfounded accusations of religious motivations, instead of philosophical curiosity. Unfortunately, that refocus of the thread let us far off-topic.

and teamed-up to quash any non-empirical answers to the OP questions. Despite inviting non-professional Opinions instead of authoritative Facts, they seem to think this forum is a place for only empirical/physical (scientific) answers, and not for theoretical/metaphysical (philosophical) guesses. But I continued to insist that the whole point of a philosophical forum was to discuss Open Questions*1 that have not been settled (closed) by experimental results or mathematical calculations (Quanta). Such unresolved queries tend to be about Universals & Logical Possibilities (Qualia) that are not sorted-out by Observations or Algorithms. Yet the A-team demanded empirically verifiable closed-system answers only : Demonstrate or Calculate!

They seem to be practicing radical Humean skepticism*2. Ironically, as a philosophical method, it is self defeating, because it denies the possibility of theoretical knowledge or pragmatic belief*3. It closes the door to Epistemology. That's why Bayesian Probability was developed, to provide a means to make uncertain information useful. Quantum physics would be useless if we demanded final facts (Quanta) and rejected informed opinions (Qualia). Quantum scientists resolved the dilemma of statistical uncertainty by voting on imperfect-but-actionable beliefs, as summarized in the Standard Model. Philosophers seldom deal with questions that have final satisfactory answers. Which is why we are still arguing open-ended Socratic questions to this day, 2500 years later.

Happenstantially, my Enformationism worldview is informed in part by an essential principle of Quantum Science : Uncertainty (undecidable ; in-calculable ; non-algorithmic). That fundamental fact reveals that Nature is inherently statistical & probabilistic. Hence, not amenable to comprehensive answers, only serviceable limited applications. So quantum scientists had to learn to be satisfied by Open Ended probabilities instead of settled certainties. Practical, but not perfect conclusions. Likewise, my responses to the topical questions are inherently Philosophical (possible ; probable), not Scientific (empirical ; factual), but also not Religious (wishful ; emotional).

Statistical solutions, like Open Questions, are indefinite & elliptical, hence extend beyond space-time to include Infinity & Eternity. For example, what are the odds that our universe is self-existent, and did not emerge from any prior causal system? Did the Real world emerge from timeless statistical Potential, or from an infinite regression of Actual turtle-worlds? Did space-time-matter-energy begin with a bang, or is it eternally recycling? Did homo sapiens emerge from random evolution as an incidental accident -- is that a fact or conjecture? How did humans learn to process abstract information, such as mathematics, unless the potential for that talent was inherent in the information-processing system of Evolution? This is just a sample of open-ended questions that philosophers engage with, but have no hope for empirical resolution. I certainly don't have the final answers, do you? :smile:



*1. Open Questions :
An open-ended question is a question that cannot be answered with a "yes" or "no" response, or with a static response.
__Wiki
Note -- For example : is the fundamental element of physics Particular or Holistic? Statistical quantum duality (wave-particle) is a philosophical conundrum : moving Wave or static Object ; local Atom or non-local Field ; Part or Whole ; Yes, No, or Maybe?

*2. “If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.”
― David Hume
Note -- Taken literally, this declaration equates "abstract reasoning" concerning Qualia or Infinity with Sophistry. In which case, Quantum Physics & Philosophical Epistemology are illusory, and deceptive.

*3. Radical skepticism (or radical scepticism in British English) is the philosophical position that knowledge is most likely impossible. Radical skeptics hold that doubt exists as to the veracity of every belief and that certainty is therefore never justified. To determine the extent to which it is possible to respond to radical skeptical challenges is the task of epistemology or "the theory of knowledge".
___Wiki