↪Gnomon
Philosophers talk about (understanding) ideas and possibilities and scientists talk about (knowing) facts and probabilities, no? The latter propositions and the former suppositions, right? Yeah, in practice there are overlaps but the respective functions (i.e. epistemology & epistemes) are distinction. — 180 Proof

Yes. But, there is a wide range of those uncertain "overlaps" between "known" or "proven" facts, and "received opinions" or "heresies". The Scientific Method is a set of guidelines, intended to prevent scientists from confusing little "F" facts that are "adequate for some particular task", and capital "F" Facts that are True, now & forever, here & there. Philosophers have also devised long lists of Fallacies, to deter them from stumbling into the pitfalls of False Generalization from "known facts".

And yet, both professions still have room for disagreement on "facts" that fall into the gray area, between proven and proposed. Both groups try to walk the chalk line, but all too often stray from the strait & narrow. Which is one reason we have online Philosophical forums, where rational thinkers with slightly different worldviews, can share Facts and Opinions remotely without the danger of throttling each other.

For those of us, who are not omniscient, all our general "facts" are also personal "opinions". In all ages, the list of "proven" scientific facts is contingent upon further evidence, and always subject to change. For example, the Standard Model of Quantum Theory was essentially a contentious quorum consensus, similar to that of the official Catholic Canon of Nicaea -- not a revelation from above. And, many of the "propositions" of that theory would have been preposterous to Isaac Newton, who worried about his own proposition of "spooky action at a distance" : the pull of gravity.

That's why a touch of scientific humility is advisable for those on internet forums who wish to argue fixed facts and potential probabilities. Because Your Facts are pre-suppositions and My Facts are mere opinions. So, I could be wrong . . . . but I doubt it. :grin:

Scientific Humility :
Humility means being open to the possibility of being wrong, being willing to consider other people's ideas and being respectful
https://in-training.org/humility-science-science-always-wins-11239

Science is not about certainty. Science is about finding the most reliable way of thinking at the present level of knowledge.
https://newrepublic.com/article/118655/theoretical-phyisicist-explains-why-science-not-about-certainty

I May Be Wrong but I Doubt It is a memoir by former American professional basketball player Charles Barkley.

Or is it more accurate to say that some people have false beliefs. I wonder if using the word facts here blurs the issue. There have always been people who held false beliefs, assuming them to be facts. — Tom Storm

Yes, but the problem with any true/false dichotomy is "who says", and "whose facts". The current issue of SKEPTIC magazine has a Conspiracy Theory article entitled : "The fringe is mainstream". Professional skeptics have been struggling for almost 60 years to definitively define the Paranormal (weird, but not exactly super-natural), and to draw a line between fringe (presumably false) beliefs, and Normal/True/Mainstream worldviews.

By their own admission, in surveys, millions of Americans believe in "weird things". So, the article concludes, "the reality is clear : when we talk about 'fringe believers', we're actually talking about most people. . . . skeptics are the outliers." Moreover, some modern-day politicians, pointing the finger at "fake news", practice the very false-fact dissemination that they preach against. And are avidly supported by almost half of the US voting population. Obfuscating smoke & mirrors are essential to Magic, and to Advertising, and to Politics, and to Sophistry..

Ironically, most posters on this forum are strongly skeptical about some ideas, and are well-trained in Critical Thinking. And yet, we vociferously disagree on some dearly-held beliefs. And that's not due to ignorance or stupidity, but to the shades of gray surrounding some of the most important philosophical issues --- topics that are still debated after 2500 years of philosophical and scientific analysis. So, it seems to be a Mexican stand-off, between My Truth and Your Falsehood.

That's why I have adopted the BothAnd Principle to monitor my own beliefs, and of those I dialog with on this forum. Belief systems typically have a true/false hard core and maybe-yes/maybe-no soft edges, or fringes. If we disagree about the core issues, there's nothing to be done, except agree to disagree, or to step-off 20 paces. Yet, if we can find some common ground on the mushy-maybe terrain, perhaps both sides will get a little closer to big "T" Truth. :cool:

Both/And Principle :
My coinage for the holistic principle of Complementarity, as illustrated in the Yin/Yang symbol. Opposing or contrasting concepts are always part of a greater whole. Conflicts between parts can be reconciled or harmonized by putting them into the context of a whole system.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page10.html

BothAnd-ism :
An inclusive philosophical perspective that values both Subjective and Objective information; both Feelings and Facts; both Mysteries and Matters-of-fact; both Animal and Human nature. . . . ambiguity as a natural fact of life to be dealt with rationally and pragmatically.

We All Believe in Magic :
The widely spread view on magical beliefs in modern industrial cultures contends that magical beliefs are a bunch of curious phenomena that persist today as an unnecessary addition to a much more important set of rational beliefs. Contrary to this view, in this article, the view is presented, which suggests that the belief in magic is a fundamental property of the human mind. Individuals can consciously consider themselves to be completely rational people and deny that they believe in magic or God despite harboring a subconscious belief in the supernatural. Research also shows how engagement in magical thinking can enhance cognitive functioning, such as creative thinking, perception and memory.
The Belief in Magic in the Age of Science
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2158244014521433

To my mind, a philosophical expression amounts to a supposition – 'Suppose X, then possibly Y' – that is, a proposal for reflective consideration (e.g. dialectics, gedankenexperiment, daily (fitness / therapeutic) praxis, etc) tested only by its comparatively rational adequacy for some reflective task, and not a proposition asserting what is or not a fact of the matter. — 180 Proof

That's why most of the assertions on a philosophy forum should be taken with a grain of salt. Unlike physical scientists, philosophers -- and theoretical scientists -- are not bound by proven physical facts. Instead, they are free to suppose -- to say "what-if, given a few assumptions, X is true?" This is how Einstein discovered the physical implications of living in a relative, rather than an absolute & deterministic, world. Hence, most modern scientific "facts" are relative to a point-of-view or frame-of-reference. And they are provisional, given certain presumed preconditions.

By contrast, many informal philosophical expressions are based on un-stated pre-suppositions (beliefs), in which the conditions & limitations on the truth of the statement are not clearly defined. That's why Voltaire warned that, before making a definitive assertion, "first define your terms". Unfortunately, all too many of those implicit "facts" are only loosely defined -- adequate to a narrow task -- and may be interpreted to suit a presumed inference. Even Skeptics argue from a complex worldview that seems to them to be The Simple Truth. So, it's easy to be skeptical of other people's beliefs (presuppositions), but harder to skeptically dig around in the foundation of your own worldview, for fear of undermining The Truth. :smile:

Suppose :
1. assume that something is the case on the basis of evidence or probability but without proof or certain knowledge.
1a : to lay down tentatively as a hypothesis, assumption, or proposal

False Consensus :
"Everyone tends to assume that most normal, decent, intelligent people believe what we believe.":
SKEPTIC magazine, v26 n2

Or is it? I think the above needs to be qualified and that It is a case of the magic being in the eye of the beholders — Jacob-B

The current issue of SKEPTIC magazine has an article debunking the modern-day belief that Giordano Bruno was a martyr to Science, as opposed to myth-based religion. In fact, his notion of many other inhabited worlds out there, was at the time, not Science but science-fiction, since he had no evidence to support that imaginative scenario. Ironically today, a primary focus of "scientific" off-world exploration is to discover tangible evidence of life on other planets, such as Mars. And the faith that life is ubiquitous & cheap, rather than rare & precious, remains an article of motivating faith in search of facts. Bruno's mistake was not in speculating that stars might be suns with solar systems of their own, but in stubbornly insisting on that 17th century fiction as a matter of faith, for which he was prepared to die.

The same issue recounts a modern-day martyr, who blew himself, and a city block of Nashville, to kingdom come with a fertilizer-filled van. He left behind treatises declaring that his self-martyrdom was grounded in the faith that lizard people were running the country, and the world. As science-fiction, the notion of disguised reptoids taking-over the world might be amusing, as in the TV series "V". But as a belief to sacrifice your life for, it sounds insane to us enlightened skeptics. But the article notes that 12 million Americans believe the government is run by lizard people. Apparently, they don't think of that worldview as magical, but factual. So, it seems that facts are also in the eye of the believer. :gasp:

We are not merely some mammally organic ‘luck’,
But purposely evolved on this planet, near a star,
In that intended long and winding mindless ‘birth’
Of slowly drifting time, dust, and selection by death
That ever sifted the best from the rest: Sapiens! — PoeticUniverse

:up:

We don't know the utter end of this ever-changing cosm,
progressing by degrees from single spark to fathomless abyss,
with sentient eyes always looking up.
But, whatever end we are tending for,
its path has gone through us,
the fittest of the fit, so far. :cool:

Yeah, the consequences of such believe might be very devastating; makes me wonder why such a believe would ever arise under evolutionary constraints. — Daniel

The "belief" that Self is more important than Other seems to be inherent in how sentient beings perceive (awareness) their environment. All of our senses, including the extended sensing of Consciousness, are rooted in the brain & body of the sentient organism. And the primary purpose of sensation is to distinguish Self from Other. Once that dichotomy is established, the next determination is between Food and Self-sustenance. However, that Predator vs Prey relationship can also be reversed, as when the little fish is swallowed by a larger fish. So it's also important for survival to distinguish between Self-interest, and the interest of other Predators & Prey. Yet, it's only natural for personal interests to be most important to the self-centered Self-conscious organism.

Therefore, it seems that a hierarchy of interests is inherent in Darwinian evolution. Survival of the fittest, makes setting priorities paramount for every organism. Each "object" of evolution must value its own interests above those of other "subjects" of the weeding-out process of competitive fitness. Consequently, each organism, or "object", has a mandate to "out-fit" the competition. And humans seem to have taken that imperative to an extreme. Fortunately, we have also learned to moderate our self-aggrandizement to include the interests of Others within our own sphere of interest. That's why super-sentient humans had to develop a more formal cultural sense of communal Morality and inter-personal Ethics, that goes beyond what physical evolution could produce via natural instincts. :nerd:

Super-sentient : human senses have evolved beyond physical senses, to include meta-physical perception of self-other relationships. And that is a primary topic of human Philosophy.

SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING INTERESTS :

SHARED INTERESTS :

Man, it seems to me, gives itself a special status among existing things; special in the sense that Man thinks Man, somehow, is more particularly unique OR essential (OR divine) compared to other existing things. — Daniel

Any Self has special status in its own eyes. The fat cat purring in your lap may be thinking that you exist only to serve her own needs & purposes. Any organism capable of a self-image would presumably place its own Self at the top of the value scale. Unfortunately, we can't read the minds of all those other self-centered beings. So, we point the finger of blame at the over-weening minds that are capable of expressing their smugness in words as well as deeds.

As a practical limitation, we can't all fit on the peak of a social pyramid. And the consequences of playing the king-of-the-hill game can be devastating to fragile egos. So, at least some introspective humans are acutely aware of the negative social effects of self-aggrandizing Egoism, and have developed counter-weights to selfish behavior. That's the primary purpose of man-made Morality : to round-off the sharp edges of ambitious Selves to make them less dangerous to other Selves.

In George Orwell's Animal Farm, the "pigs" declared that all animals are equal, but some are "more equal" than others. Likewise, in the Human Farm, the homos have proclaimed their kind as "more equal" than all other sentient beings. And buoyed by that inflated self-image, they have proceeded to turn the natural world to their own artificial purposes. Ironically, their almost total dominance of the world's resources, still has at least one nemesis. Invisible and insentient organisms (loosely categorized) continue to terrorize humanity with plagues and pandemics, by merely implacably pursuing their own selfish purposes. Then again, the sapiens continue to assert their divine role as the collective rulers of this world, by creating means of mass-destruction of those pests. So, who's "da man" in this eternal struggle for supremacy? :wink:

History taught us that there was a fatal systemic deficiency within all Communist forms of government. Communist governments' centralized planned economies simply could not produce enough quality goods and services to meet even the basic needs of their citizens/subjects. — charles ferraro

A pragmatic accommodation to that inherent weakness of top-down planned economies may be why China has quickly converted from a purely Socialist economy to a Mixed economy. That switch has allowed them to become an economic powerhouse. But the political ideology is still basically Marxist & Communist, which tends to minimize political independence, and to mandate Unity (collectives, communes), which minimizes Diversity, and suppresses minorities. So, they have adapted to the practical requirements of a complex economy, even as they are reluctant to follow the West into their currently chaotic social systems, pitting individual rights against collective rights, and the few rich against the many poor.

However, I suspect that social unrest will eventually catch up with them. As it already has in Russia, nominally Socialist, but ruled by Oligarchs. Finding the sweet spot between a free economy and an inverted social pyramid, is like walking a tightrope : it helps to have a counter-balancing pole with enough inertia to keep the struggle between left & right from throwing the system off-balance. In the US, the Constitution has so-far provided sufficient moderating stability to keep us from plunging into the safety-net of Left or Right-wing Totalitarianism. But, the tightrope walker is trying to walk a fine line between two kinds of fatal systemic social failure. And is currently recovering its balance from a near fall into National Socialism, with a "free" economy for the rich & powerful, but requiring elimination of de-stabilizing social elements (those who are different). And the wavering goes on . . . . :cool:

Just look in the mirror at the increasing disorder that's organizing you, Gnomon! From what you've written, it appears you profoundly misunderstand (or "metaphysically" deny) entropy. And btw, I'm not a "reductionist". — 180 Proof

Again, you seem to be talking nonsense : "disorder that organizes". That paradoxical notion goes right over my pointy little head. It sounds like the "emptiness of space that is full of energy" in the quote below.

Can you explain "disorder that organizes" in dumbed-down terms for a simpleton like me. I'm sure you know more about such things that I do. However, since I'm neither a physicist nor a mathematician, I am not interested in the narrow technical details of Energy/Entropy. My concern is only in the broad general philosophical implications of such abstruse topics. If I really had a use for the arcane details, I would ask you to teach me.

But I can be satisfied with illustrative metaphors, such as "Entropy is the flip-side of Energy". And although they are discussed as-if they are physical substances, they are more akin to spiritual substances like ectoplasm. In that case, "Entropy is like the ghost of Energy past". Neither is a material substance, but merely a condition, a state -- like before and after. That's why mystified scientists use poetic terms like "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" and "Dynamic Fluid" as placeholders for real understanding.

Perhaps you are actually being poetic, and ironic, when you speak of "disorder that organizes". Are you just pulling my leg? Are you actually a holist, pretending to be a reductionist? Are you metaphysically equating destructive Entropy with constructive Energy to emphasize the paradox of all change : Life is merely the process of approaching Death. :joke:

Dark Energy, Dark Matter :
"empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. . . .
The thing that is needed to decide between dark energy possibilities - a property of space, a new dynamic fluid, or a new theory of gravity - is more data, better data.
https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy

“Exergy balance equation” :
There is a direct connection between exergy destruction, entropy generation, and the reference temperature of environment, namely Exd=T0ΔSgen
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/exergy-balance-equation
Note -- the poetic expression of Entropy as-if it is generated as a positive product of expending available Energy (exergy), rather than another step on the slippery slope that leads to the Heat Death of the universe. :cool: .

Energy is the potential for positive change (work, construction, organization)
Entropy is the result of negative change (dissipation, destruction, disorganization)

Nope, just dark energy. Phantom energy is something on top of that, that may or may not exist. Dark energy definitely does. — Pfhorrest

Oh! I thought you were proposing some novel form of energy. :smile:

Instead, the universe seems to be gradually maximizing order and organization. — Gnomon

This makes no sense; in fact, it's contradictory. According to thermodynamics: order is DISorganization ... DISorder is organization. — 180 Proof

I understand that you don't agree with my holistic & positive assessment of the direction of evolution. But how did you come-up with that Big Brother oxymoronic assertion? I assume you are thinking of Entropy as merely a mathematical description of the energy availability in a system. How can you equate "order" with "disorganization"? Is that how the world looks from a reductionist perspective?

In a non-mathematical sense (common sense), meaningful synonyms of Entropy are "disorder" and "disorganization". And in the context of describing the universe as an evolving system, dis-organization is the measurable effect of Entropy. A randomized system is not a system, because it lacks the patterns of organization that constitute a system. Entropy breaks down the order and organization of a functional system. That's why Claude Shannon defined "Information" in terms of Order (certainty ; meaning) versus Entropy (uncertainty ; meaningless). :cool:

Entropy as Disorder: History of a Misconception :
The claim “entropy is analogous to disorder” fails for one additional reason: the word “disorder” is hopelessly vague. Entropy is a precise, measurable quantity.
https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.5126822

Entropy :
1. a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"
2. lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
___Oxford dictionary

Entropy :
In thermodynamics, entropy is often associated with the amount of order or disorder in a thermodynamic system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(order_and_disorder)

Systems Theory :
Some may view the contradiction of reductionism in conventional theory (which has as its subject a single part) as simply an example of changing assumptions. The emphasis with systems theory shifts from parts to the organization of parts, recognizing interactions of the parts as not static and constant but dynamic processes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Universe is an organized System :
A system is an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its boundaries and is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Evolution, the argument goes, is a decrease of entropy, because it involves things getting more organized over time, while the second law says that things get more disordered over time. So evolution violates the second law. ...
http://physics.gmu.edu/~roerter/EvolutionEntropy.htm


“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, 1984

And so a universe that began as literally just an empty set, a zero, one black pixel, evolved more dimensions, larger dimensions, and more and more complex structure, because that became the best way of increasing entropy. — Pfhorrest

My personal cosmology is just the opposite of maximizing Entropy. Instead, the universe seems to be gradually maximizing order and organization. But, since we are currently at the You Are Here mid-point (in the graphic of my last post about the Big Rip), the amount of order right now is roughly equal to the amount of disorder.

However, if the "black pixel" was programmed to evolve in a positive (relative to humans) manner. That would imply that the original "set" (Singularity) was not "empty", but bursting full of Potential. If so, Evolution could be interpreted as the gradual actualization of that latent constructive Energy. Perhaps the destiny of this experiment in evolution would be something like a second Singularity -- as envisioned by Ray Kurzweil, or by Teilhard deChardin. :yum:

So, could perhaps the second law of thermodynamics itself therefore be responsible for the creation of new energy via the expansion of space, which in turn undermines the effects of the second law on the universe as a whole? — Pfhorrest

I just came across the term "phantom energy" which seems to be what you are talking about. If such inflationary energy actually existed, it would result in a sudden "Big Rip", which sounds more dramatic (and unpleasant) than the current projection of a "Big Sigh" during the prolonged "heat death" of the universe. This reminds me of Woody Allen's quip : "I'm not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens". :joke:

Expanding Space -- Negative Gravity :
However… it is possible that our universe contains what is known as “phantom energy” in the literature. A universe with phantom energy is unstable, because the density of phantom energy is increasing when the universe expands, but just like dark energy, phantom energy accelerates expansion. But in this case, it becomes a runaway process, known as the “Big Rip”.
https://www.quora.com/What-if-space-expanded-so-fast-that-virtual-particle-pairs-were-pulled-away-from-each-too-quickly-for-them-to-annihilate-each-other/answer/Viktor-T-Toth-1?ch=99&share=a86bfb9b&srid=ozk3M

Phantom Energy :
Phantom energy is a hypothetical form of dark energy satisfying the equation of state with w < − 1 {\displaystyle w<-1} w<-1. It possesses negative kinetic energy, and predicts expansion of the universe in excess of that predicted by a cosmological constant, which leads to a Big Rip. The idea of phantom energy is often dismissed, as it would suggest that the vacuum is unstable with negative mass particles bursting into existence. The concept is hence tied to emerging theories of a continuously-created negative mass dark fluid, in which the cosmological constant can vary as a function of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_energy

Big Rip :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip

I just wonder what the implications are of this and:
-how much of our world view is stuff we invent ourselves
- how much control we have over our world view — John Paterson

See my reply to for an introduction to Don Hoffman's answer to your question.

didn't know Hoffman had discussed his ideas with THE Francis Crick? I'm not surprised he was a critic.

I take it Hoffman is a lot more radical than the rather tame view that reality and our perception of it are not one and the same? — Down The Rabbit Hole

Don Hoffman was a close associate of Francis Crick, and they worked together for years. But Hoffman was a lot younger, and began to diverge from Crick in his basic worldview. Crick was a fairly traditional reductive-materialist-classical scientist, and famously said "you are nothing but a pack of neurons". Yet, over time, Hoffman's views turned toward more holistic Eastern models of reality, in which "You" are more than your physical structure. He also was influenced by the contra-classical findings of Quantum Theory -- including the role of the observer in constructing models of reality. And I wouldn't be surprised, if Crick lived long enough to read Hoffman's latest books, that he would find his ideas "radical". Nevertheless, Hoffman remains respectful of his mentor's contributions to science.

Hoffman's "astonishing hypothesis" is just the opposite from Crick's. And he turned the old evolutionary arguments for reality (arbitrary & random reshuffling of matter) upside-down, by implying that even hard-nosed no-nonsense scientists are dealing with illusions of their own making. This does not necessarily mean that there is no ultimate true Reality, but merely that each of us is like the blind-men and the elephant story, in which each observer sees only a part of the whole. In that case, the role of science is to have a meeting of minds, and to merge our various "illusions" into a single useful approximation of Holistic Reality. :nerd:


The Astonishing Hypothesis is that “You,” your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased it: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” ___Francis Crick
https://todayinsci.com/C/Crick_Francis/CrickFrancis-Quotations.htm

The Evolutionary Argument Against Reality :
The cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman believes that evolution and quantum mechanics conspire to make objective reality an illusion.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-evolutionary-argument-against-reality-20160421/

BLIND MEN OBSERVING A WHOLE ELEPHANT'S PARTS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

I think the most popular is Donald Hoffman's The case against reality. — Down The Rabbit Hole

FWIW, here's my blog review of Hoffman's book, and its thesis of Model Dependent Realism.

Reality is not what you see :
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html

Model-dependent realism :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism

I don't see how you're getting that claim. I am both talking about the Principle of Least Action, and also talking about Noether's Theorem, but I don't see why you'd say one is a special case of the other. — Pfhorrest

It wasn't exactly a "claim", but just an observation. I don't know much about either theory. But after reading descriptions, the "principle" seemed to be more general in application than the "theorem". In any case, I concluded that the PLA would have the opposite effect from "efficiently" Increasing Entropy. Instead, it would tend to conserve available Energy, acting as a brake on the dissipating effects of energy decay -- the end result of which is the projected Heat Death of the universe.

A more positive outlook is important to my philosophical worldview, including the hypothesis of Enformy (negentropy), which works in opposition to deconstructing & digressing Entropy. I had coined the term "enformy" before I had heard of "negentropy". And one reason that awkward word is not better known, may be that some misanthropic physicists appear to be less interested in positive evolution, than in the scary negative impact of the motor of the world running down, leaving us stranded in a bleak future, with nowhere to go. :grin:


Enformy :
In the Enformationism theory, Enformy is a hypothetical, holistic, metaphysical, natural trend or force, that counteracts Entropy & Randomness to produce complexity & progress.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

Negentropy is reverse entropy. It means things becoming more in order. By 'order' is meant organisation, structure and function: the opposite of randomness or chaos. One example of negentropy is a star system such as the Solar System. ... The opposite of entropy is negentropy.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy

As though the conserved quantity is not just energy per se, but free energy: so as some energy becomes unfree as entropy increases, there's a commensurate creation of new free energy to keep the total free energy constant, which new energy is added everywhere equally, manifesting as an expansion of space. — Pfhorrest

Again, I'm not qualified to comment on the mathematical or physical aspects of your proposed symmetrical relationship between Space & Time, or between Free Energy & Spatial Expansion. But, I am interested in the Philosophical and Cosmological implications of the proportional relationship between Energy and Entropy.

Noether's Theorem seems to be a special case of Maupertuis' Principle of Least Action. Which has been metaphorized as "The Lazy Universe Principle". But I would prefer to call it the "Conservative" or "Frugal Universe" principle. That is how I interpret the First Law. It's like Fossil Fuels : petroleum is not a renewable resource, so it must be used sparingly and recycled when possible. "A penny saved is a penny earned".

In this case, "Free Energy" is not free; it comes with a cost : Entropy (unavailable energy). So, the source of energy for the expansion of space is not a freebie. Therefore, the moral of this story is that Energy and Space-Time are finite --- hence, the expansion cannot go-on forever. :cool:

Maupertuis's principle :
It is a special case of the more generally stated principle of least action.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maupertuis%27s_principle

The Lazy Universe :
https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.5024210

Thermodynamic free energy :
Since free energy usually contains potential energy, it is not absolute but depends on the choice of a zero point. Therefore, only relative free energy values, or changes in free energy, are physically meaningful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_free_energy

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.

By our current best understanding of physics, the universe as a whole is not a closed system, because there's new energy being created everywhere all the time by the expansion of space. . . . what the corresponding symmetry to conservation of free energy would be. — Pfhorrest

Not necessarily new. I'm not a physicist, but I am interested in the symmetry between Energy & Entropy. Apparently, the universe began with all the energy it would ever have. But energy is a shape-shifter, in that it is constantly changing form, from potential to kinetic, from energy to mass, and back again. The traditional list of energy forms -- chemical, electrical, radiant, mechanical, thermal and nuclear -- may need to be updated to accommodate "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter". But the general rule seems to be : "conserve energy, because it doesn't grow on trees". Therefore, despite speculations about "continuous creation", or "exchanging energy between mini-verses in a multiverse, our world still remains a closed system. But it's a dynamic system, and cybernetic system. So, it's a slippery bar of soap, for physicists to pin down. :smile:


What is the source of energy that is accelerating space? :
No new energy is created, it is potential energy converted into kinetic energy. ... The expansion is accelerating constantly, so that would seem to require a constant addition of energy. But if our universe is self contained, there is no external source of energy to create a force to accelerate space. . . .

There is no force or energy involved in the expansion of space. It is merely a natural result of the General Theory of Relativity.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/What-is-the-source-of-energy-that-is-accelerating-space

Enformy :
In the Enformationism theory, Enformy is a hypothetical, holistic, metaphysical, natural trend or force, that counteracts Entropy & Randomness to produce complexity & progress.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Note -- (amateur guess) apparently, Enformy is symmetrical, in that it maintains a dynamic balance between Potential (stored) and Actual (kinetic) Energy, by cycling through various physical forms. As space expands, its potential energy is converted into kinetic or inertial energy. But the total (whole) energy content of the Cosmos remains the same as in the beginning, when it went Bang!.

If you had only reason and no passion, you would be a computer. If you had only passion and no reason, you would be an animal (sorry animals, I couldn't find a better example). — TheMadFool

:up:

As I see it, the Stoic ideal was a harmonious balance between the extremes of Spock Logic and Captain Kirk passion. It was the Cynics that tended to the extreme of living life like a dog (sorry mutts). :grin: :lol:

I have searched on and off for years on what philosophical movements promote, or are in agreement with, the idea that everything in our experience can be interpreted/translated as mathematics. — Paul Fishwick

I tend to equate the human science of Mathematics with knowledge of the Logical structure of the universe. In mathematical analysis, we are describing certain logical relationships between things. And one result of those "equations" is a unified & holistic view of otherwise independent parts of reality. The physical parts of reality are visible and tangible. But the web of interrelationships is invisible, except to rational minds. So, Mathematics is essentially a form of Mind-reading, in the sense of Hawking's quote about knowing the mind of God.

With that broader notion in mind, I would call the mathematical aspect of reality : Meta-Physical. That's because it applies, not just to material relationships, but to meaningful & moral human (mental, emotional) relationships. Logical relationships have both numerical values (ratios) and moral values (true/false; good/bad). But those who focus their mathematical investigations on the parts, may not "see" the whole picture, that Hawking referred to as "God". Of course, he was not referring to the god-model of any particular religion, but to the Nature-god (or Logos) of the philosophers, specifically Spinoza. And, in that all-encompassing sense, Mathematics (Logic) is part & parcel of "everything". :smile:


"If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would know the mind of God" ___Stephen Hawking

Logic is empirical — RussellA

OK. You have made your semantic point. But my semantic point is that "Probability" is Virtual, not Actual ; Potential, not Real ; Future, not Here & Now. :smile:


In conclusion, theoretical probability is based on the assumption that outcomes have an equal chance of occurring while empirical probability is based on the observations of an experiment. There are two other types of probabilities and these are axiomatic probability and subjective probability.
https://medium.com/@emmabudu/the-difference-between-empirical-and-theoretical-probability-d42938aa8b7

Probability tells us how often some event will happen after many repeated trials. This topic covers theoretical, experimental, compound probability, permutations,​ ...
https://www.khanacademy.org/math/statistics-probability/probability-library

They're used to make empirical predictions. How much more factual do you want? — Kenosha Kid

Those hypothetical dimensionless mathematical points do allow predictions that can be empirically tested. But the "objects" themselves are Theoretical, not Empirical ; Possible, not Factual. That's all I'm saying. I have no problem with hypothesis or conjecture per se. :cool:

Potential energy is still energy. You can weigh it, for instance. — Kenosha Kid

Yes. Potential Energy is Virtual Energy. And unhatched eggs are virtual chickens. :joke:

However, I don't understand the mechanism for teleological "intention". — RussellA

Teleology is an inference from observation of tendencies in natural patterns. If you watch a landslide, the only "intention" (tendency) you will see is that of gravity. Which dictates that an object with no means of self-movement will be caused to move by the outside force of gravitational "attraction". In this isolated case, we don't say that gravity is an "intentional" agent, but it is a "causal" agent. However, if you add-up all the uni-directional patterns in physics, you may notice that the current state (pattern) of causal change points back to what cosmologists call a "Singularity", where the causal lines disappear into the black-hole (metaphor) of Infinity.

Since everything that happened after the Big Bang -- including the emergence of flesh & blood intentional agents -- was fore-ordained (programmed) in that dimensionless point (no extension, only intention) , it would be reasonable to look for an intentional agent (outside force) to do the programming of the "mechanism" (evolution). The only other reasonable conclusion would be that a random confluence of atoms, accidentally caused a functioning world -- complete with life & mind & intentional agents -- to appear, as-if from nowhere. That's what you call a "Cosmic Coincidence" or a "miracle". So, which is more reasonable : coincidence or intention, to explain the progressive patterns of Nature? :smile:

Teleology and the intentions of supernatural agents :
These results are consistent with an intention-based theory of teleology, and help to reconcile the finding of a positive relationship between teleological endorsement and belief in supernatural agents, with the those of an enduring teleological bias.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32155580/
Note 1 -- by the same reasoning, you could conclude that those who do not endorse the notion of super-natural agents, are those with an enduring anti-teleological bias. So, it comes down to a matter of opinion, not fact. In my case, I am open to the notion of pre-big-bang agency, but it's not an article of faith. Is a consistent tendency in a specific direction (arrow of time) a sign of random coincidence, or goal-directed intention?
Note 2 -- a fireworks explosion has no inherent ordering mechanism (laws). So it's a self-destructive flash. But cosmic evolution shows evidence of on-going self-organization. So it's an enduring constructive evolution toward some unknown (to us) ultimate state.

Tracing current cosmological pattern back to its origin :

He is a panpsychic: "Koch has come around to the view that all forms of life — from apes, dogs and dolphins all the way down to microbes — possess a modicum of consciousness. — Pop

I respect Koch's authority in neuroscience, but I disagree with his philosophical interpretation of the universality of Consciousness**. That's because I reserve the "C" term for the only psyche we know directly : self-consciousness. All other forms of information processing are hypothetical. Panpsychism has the "virtue" of minimizing the importance of humanity. And a bit of humility in science & philosophy is necessary to avoid over-generalizing ideas (abstractions) beyond their proper scope. On the other hand, I assume there is a hierarchy of Consciousness, with atoms at the bottom of the pyramid, and humanity at the peak -- but with more evolution to come. :cool:

** For me, Consciousness is a highly-evolved form of Generic Information (EnFormAction). In my thesis, Information (the power to enform, to cause change of form) is universal. Its best known form is ubiquitous causal Energy, which Physics views as the most essential aspect of our world : no energy, no matter, no minds, no consciousness.

Note -- Panpsychism, as a belief system, should lead, not only to Vegetarianism, but to Inedia, or Breathairianism. One example of such extreme views is the Jain religion in India, where people believe that humans could be reincarnated as insects, so they cover their faces in order to avoid inhaling gnats.

A generalization is a form of abstraction whereby common properties of specific instances are formulated as general concepts or claims.
___Wiki

Overgeneralize :
draw a conclusion or make a statement about (something) that is more general than is justified by the available evidence.
___Oxford

Mass is indeed a property of matter. But, in that stable form it is no longer the same as dynamic Energy. — Gnomon

I think the distinction you're after is potential energy, which it has by virtue of its position in spacetime, and its mechanical energy, such as momentum and spin. — Kenosha Kid

Exactly! According to Einstein, the potential energy of a rock (uranium for example) can be converted into actual energy by deconstructing (disintegrating) its atoms. :nerd:

Aristotle describes potentiality and actuality, or potency and action, as one of several distinctions between things that exist or do not exist. In a sense, a thing that exists potentially does not exist, but the potential does exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiality_and_actuality

Or predict future empirical observations, such as the decay chains of the Higgs boson involving W bosons (which are virtual particles). — Kenosha Kid

Yes. Virtual particles are theoretical objects that are used to make logical, not yet factual, predictions. Both the particles, and the prophesied future are imaginary until actualized in the real world. :smile:

Predictions :
While a causal hypothesis is a proposed explanation, a prediction is the expected result of a test that is derived, by deduction, from a hypothesis (or theory). The expected result is a logical consequence of assuming that the hypothesis (or theory) being tested is correct.
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1057150.pdf

I would argue that logic is empirical, as logic cannot exist in an empty domain.
There is no instance where a logical truth doesn't correspond with the world
]IE, ignoring coincidence as an answer, logic is empirical because logic is an intrinsic part of nature. — RussellA

I agree with last two assertions. But I think you are using the term "empirical" to mean "real", rather than "verifiable" or "testable". In definitions, "empirical" is usually contrasted with "theoretical" or "logical". Logic is indeed an inherent (real) aspect of Nature. But it is associated with metaphysical relationships, rather than with physical, empirically verifiable, objects. So Logic is more like a mental Theory about Reality, than a material Thing in the real world. :smile:

Empirical : based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic ___Oxford Dictionary

There seem to be many measurable physical effects that seem to point to the existence of virtual particles, but "virtual particles" are not the only possible explanation of these measurable effects. — RussellA

Yes. Like Dark Matter, Virtual Particles are imaginary objects created from logical reasoning to explain otherwise puzzling empirical observations. And I don't doubt that they are useful constructs for the purposes of science. But I'm also aware that ancient people imagined invisible human-like agents to explain the otherwise inexplicable manifestations of invisible energy. For example, lightening reminded them of spears from heaven, so they assumed that someone was throwing them at specific targets, such as humans who offended the gods.

That general theory of disembodied Spirits was useful to pre-scientific thinkers for thousands of years. But we no longer need to imagine those natural effects as caused by human-like intentions, because Nature seems to be operating on auto-pilot. Hopefully, the need for ghostly objects will also no longer be necessary for future science. My money is on the causal (energy) and substantial (matter) effects of Generic Information (EnFormAction) in the natural world :nerd:

If you had a definition of consciousness then you may be able to make a coherent case for such a proposition, by examining whether the definition "only" fits humanity.

I have a definition of consciousness that fits humanity very well - "information integration for the purpose of self organization". — Pop

Yes. Your definition is broad enough to include almost anything that "processes" information, including a rock that absorbs radiant light energy, which it then "integrates" into its structure as thermal heat energy, which it then radiates back into the environment. Since I define Energy as a form of Generic Information (EnFormAction), the rock is "aware" of that incoming data only briefly. Whether that constitutes self-organization though is debatable. The rock may be changed by that interaction (thermal expansion), but the effects of such a minor change in structure might take eons to make a discernible difference. So I would reserve the term "information integration" for a more dramatic change, such as what happens when an animal "integrates" food into its structure and metabolism. That subliminal integration is essential for self-organization, but is it sufficient for meaningful Consciousness?

A dictionary definition of Consciousness is "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings." But it's hard enough to detect minimal consciousness in a comatose human, let alone a stone. Christof Koch laments the lack of a "consciousness meter" for that purpose. And elementary particles are even more remote from our concept of "awake" and "aware" than a rock. So, I prefer a narrower application of the term., that is more meaningful to the human mind, and to the human perspective. I'm not really concerned with what an atom thinks or feels, as it is dis-integrated in an atom smasher. However, I am interested in the advanced form of Information, that can be described as "Self-consciousness" --- knowing that you know. :grin:

Christof Koch -- What is Consciousness :
Consciousness is everything you experience. It is the tune stuck in your head, the sweetness of chocolate mousse, the throbbing pain of a toothache, the fierce love for your child and the bitter knowledge that eventually all feelings will end.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05097-x
Note -- he sounds like a homo sapiens chauvinist.

Is this due to G*D? I understand it as the laws of the universe ( including the ones we haven't discovered yet ) combining to cause Self organization, in an intrinsic way - Teleology, no externals necessary. — Pop

I think your "law of the universe" may be similar to my notion of EnFormAction. I didn't define it in terms of Self-Organization, but I suppose that's one way to look at it. Since the hypothetical Enformer is out of the picture, physical changes appear to be self-caused. That may be what Sheldrake had in mind for his notion of Morphic Resonance. But, I remain skeptical about his inference that "paranormal" events, such as mental telepathy are attributable to the Morphic Field. :smile:

EnFormAction :
Ententional Causation. A proposed metaphysical law of the universe that causes random interactions between forces and particles to produce novel & stable arrangements of matter & energy. It’s the creative force (aka : Divine Will) of the axiomatic eternal deity that, for unknown reasons, programmed a Singularity to suddenly burst into our reality from an infinite source of possibility. AKA : The creative power of Evolution; the power to enform; Logos; Change.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

Morphic Resonance :
Morphic resonance is a process whereby self-organising systems inherit a memory from previous similar systems.
https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance

But if everything is caused to self organize, then an intrinsic consciousness is necessary, in order to intrinsically navigate the information, and form an intrinsic "self" in the process. :cool: Which do you think it is? :smile: — Pop

I think the automatically evolving (self-organizing) processes of Nature imply that Organized Intention, rather than Disorderly Randomness, is at work. That's why I describe Evolution as functioning like a computer program, which seems intent on reaching some ultimate solution to an open question -- hopefully, the answer will be more enlightening than "42". But the original teleological Intention was in the mind of the postulated Programmer, and was eventually expressed in the emergence of creatures capable of their own self-control (cybernetics) and self-directed Intentions.

However, I refrain from applying the notion of self-consciousness to the lifeless & mindless elements (particles) of Physics. Instead, the "intrinsic consciousness" was in the Enformer, who achieves He/r goals by means of EnFormAction (a combination of causal Energy and cybernetic Information). Hence, Nature is a goal-directed cybernetic organism (a holistic system), imbued with self-directed consciousness by its Intentional Designer. But, I have to be careful not to say such outrageous things out-loud on this forum. :cool:

Principia Cybernetica :
Philosophies traditionally start with an ontology or metaphysics: a theory of being in itself, of the essence of things, of the fundamental principles of existence and reality. In a traditional systemic philosophy, "organization" might be seen as the fundamental principle of being, rather than God, matter, or the laws of nature. However this still begs the question of where this organization comes from. In a constructive systemic philosophy, on the other hand, the essence is the process through which this organization is created.
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/METAPHI.html
Note -- but who or what organized the process of Evolution???

Mass is energy, and that's generally considered a material property. — Kenosha Kid

Mass is indeed a property of matter. But, in that stable form it is no longer the same as dynamic Energy. I like to think of Matter as a condensed form of slowed-down Energy. For example, as the frequency of light energy slows down, it's vibrations are less energetic. So at some point, light energy is transformed, as-if by magic, into a sluggish material form. That's how plants make potential-energy-rich, but low-frequency, sugar molecules from sunlight. Technically, Mass per se is not Energy. But it is mathematically equal to the frequency of the energy multiplied by the speed of propagation of light (E=MC^2). :smile:

mass–energy equivalence :
the energy E is measured in Joules, the mass m is measured in kilograms, and the speed of light is measured in meters per second.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

But, on the other hand, if logical truths hold in any domain, then any domain has to contain the logical objects. Thus for logical objects there can be no empty domain. — RussellA

I am in general agreement with your assessment of Logic. But the quoted statement reminded me of the weird notion of Quantum Fields and Virtual Particles. The field itself is defined mathematically (logically) as a grid or matrix of dimensionless points (i.e. no extension, no measurable contents). And the Virtual Particles that theoretically occupy those points can be described as Potential-not-actual particles. Therefore, as a "logical object", a Virtual Particle seems to be an Empty Domain that could potentially be filled with substance.

Of course, most physicists prefer the positive-sounding term "virtual" to the negative implications of "not actual". In any case, the theoretical mathematicians don't really care that those "point" domains are mostly empty, until randomly-and-without-provocation, those vacant domains are filled with measurable particles of matter. It's only in an averaged statistical sense that the field is real. So, it seems that the human mind can "see" logical relationships between imaginary "objects". In that case, Virtual Particles could be described, philosophically, as Metaphysical instead of Physical. But that's a no-no in Physics. :smile:

Do Virtual Particles Really Exist? :
The effects of the quantum vacuum are real; the virtual particle visualization is useful, but the particles themselves are not real.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/05/07/ask-ethan-do-virtual-particles-really-exist/

Virtual reality (VR)is a simulated experience that can be similar to or completely different from the real world.

3. If everything is made of energy and information, then so is consciousness. — Pop

My understanding may be a little different, in that I would say that every thing and every process in the world is a form of Generic EnFormAction (the power to cause change of form). One form is Matter. which is what we know as physical Objects. Energy is another form, but it's a process of change, not a static object. And Consciousness is also not a stable thing, but an ongoing process of interpreting incoming Information (energy) into Subjective Meaning. So, consciousness is more like Energy than Matter. But it's hard to say what an ongoing process is "made of". You could say that C consists of a stream of Ideas or symbols or meanings. But that's a metaphor analogous to flowing water, which is actually made-of both Matter (H20), and energy (momentum). Maybe C is like a water-wheel mill that uses flowing energy to convert raw material (grain) into edible (meaningful) flour. :joke:

This wavicle interacts with another wavicle, and in the interaction the frequency and amplitude ( information ) of the two wavicles modulate to form a third wavicle. This third wavicle in its form of frequency and amplitude symbolizes the interaction of the first two wavicles. — Pop

I think I vaguely grasp what you're saying. But to me, "symbolize" is a metaphor for what goes-on in a conscious mind, not in abstract space. Are you implying that the wavicle "memory" and "symbols" are in G*D's mind?

A symbol is a subjective idea (metaphor, analogy) that represents an external object or someone else's idea. For example, the NAZI swastika originally symbolized divinity & spirituality, or just good luck. But it was adopted by the NAZIs to symbolize the dynamic "spirit" of the German folk. So, like beauty, a symbol is in the conscious mind's eye of the beholder. :heart:

This is what consciousness does, it integrates information to a symbol. — Pop

Yes. C converts objective coded energy (out there) into subjective Meaning-to-Self (in here). In its coded form, the energy is meaningless. So, I guess you mean by "integrates", that C "interprets" patterns into meanings or symbols. :chin:

mind is the arena that facilitates the self organization of information. — Pop

Yes but, I would interpret "self-organization" as an action that is automatic, and inherent in the coded information, and requires no interpretation by the recipient. Something like a self-extracting ZIP file. But for me, it takes two to "integrate" or interpret many possible meanings into a singular relevance to the recipient's Self. So, I would say that incoming information (usually in the form of energy) is meaningless and non-symbolic, until it is process in a prepared mind with the code-key (reason) to extracting the potential information. Of course, the meaning of the incoming data was known to the sender (G*D??), but not to the receiver, until the mind "faciitates" the decoding process with a "code key" (Logic) that is known to both parties in the communication. :nerd:

Fair enough. Your understanding seems to have evolved since last we spoke, and so has mine. — Pop

My philosophical understanding has been rapidly evolving since the core concept of the Enformationism Thesis occurred to me about 12 years ago. I continue to develop that kernel in my blog, and on this forum. Having my solipsistic ideas challenged is key to making philosophical progress in the complex world beyond the Self. :smile:

The information of the first and second Wavicle is integrated ( and memorized ) to the form of the third Wavicle. — Pop

Unfortunately, that assertion seems to be based on assumptions that I am not privy to. I can vaguely imagine that each wave-front is altered (form changed) by its interaction with another wave. Thereby retaining a "memory" of the event, long after it happened. Is that even close to your understanding of wavicle "memory"? :chin:

consciousness as information integration — Pop

I interpret that assertion as saying that Consciousness is a process of "connecting the dots", or categorizing independent external factors into holistic meaning, to the observer. :nerd:

If a big bang is a disintegration, the opposite of a big bang will be integration. So, following a big bang period ( disintegration period ), one would expect an integration period . — Pop

That sounds like what Teilhard deChardin called the Omega Point. I just started reading the 1987 book by astronomer John Barrow and mathematical physicist Frank Tipler : The Anthropic Cosmological Principle. Both of those "visionary" scientists reached somewhat religious or mystical conclusions about the destiny of the universe. But they are usually ridiculed by scientists and philosophers who still hold the Copernican Principle dear. :cool:


The Omega Point is a supposed future when everything in the universe spirals toward a final point of unification.

Copernican Principle :
In physical cosmology, the Copernican principle states that humans, on the Earth or in the Solar System, are not privileged observers of the universe.
Note -- this is usually interpreted to mean that the universe is not Anthropic -- that there is nothing special about humanity, and the universe is not teleological.

Therefore, as the logic of the physical world is verifiable by observation, "logic is empirical". — RussellA

OK. But it's the physics that's empirical, not the logical inferences. Logic is not a physical object, it's a mental process of making meaningful connections between otherwise meaningless events. The distinction is between the physical event and the metaphysical observation. People tend to see only the object in front of them, and ignore the seer (with knowledge and prejudices) behind their eyes. Simply seeing the obvious is not scientific observation. Classical Physics allowed scientists to ignore the observing mind. But, Quantum Theory requires scientists to include the Observer in the observation. :smile:

I thought I did explain. But I forgot you are a dualist, so it wouldn't make much of an impression on you, I'm sure.
For a dualist, information exists as patterns of energy / matter everywhere else except in mind! — Pop

If you explained the meaning of "information integrates itself", I missed it. Would you run it by me again?

Actually, I am both a Dualist and a Monist, just as I am both a Realist and an Idealist. That's how I unify a universe of many parts into a single whole system. But I don't understand how Holism could explain how a bit or byte of Information could "integrate itself". That seems to attribute some self-control to abstract Information/Energy -- as-if a bit of information is a self-conscious entity. I sometimes describe EnFormAction, metaphorically, as-if it works like the Holy Spirit of God, "moving on the face of the waters". But, it's not intended to be taken literally or physically or religiously.

As a world system, Information (EnFormAction) is already integrated, but when Generic Information takes on the form of Matter or Energy, it necessarily dis-integrates. Maybe what you meant to say was that Information is inherently unified in its holistic form. But the Integrated Information Theory, postulates that the real entities, that we perceive around us, must somehow become re-integrated. I'm not sure how the mathematical manipulations would actually achieve that goal. But we do it instinctively all the time when we change our perspective from subjective to objective, and vice-versa. So, information is constantly changing form, from holistic Potential, to particular Actual, and back again. In the human brain/mind, information is converted from neuro-chemical processes into the idea processing that we call "thinking". But the information doesn't re-integrate itself, because it requires intention on the part of the thinker. Anyway, this seems to be minor semantic distinction for me. But, I could be missing something important. :joke:


EnFormAction :
Ententional Causation. A proposed metaphysical law of the universe that causes random interactions between forces and particles to produce novel & stable arrangements of matter & energy. It’s the creative force (aka : Divine Will) of the axiomatic eternal deity that, for unknown reasons, programmed a Singularity to suddenly burst into our reality from an infinite source of possibility. AKA : The creative power of Evolution; the power to enform; Logos; Change.\
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

PS__I do see signs of Intentionality in the process of Thermodynamics and Evolution. And I propose a hypothetical deity to provide the teleological direction to the system as a whole. But taken literally, that could imply hard determinism. So, my metaphorical deity is assumed to give the world a push in a particular direction, then leave it alone to find its own path through almost infinite possibilities to a destination that is determined only in outline. Sadly, all of that hypothetical nonsense sounds like mere philosophical quibbling. So, I don't make a religion of it. :cool:

You are using an idealist argument - I love it! :razz: — Pop

Yes. But I also use Realist arguments where appropriate. However, it's the Idealist notions that tend to inflame some posters on this forum. I coined a term to describe my BothAnd philosophy : I'm a Redealist. I don't have to deny physical Reality in order to "see" meta-physical Ideality, the invisible world of interrelationships, that we know as Ideas or Meaning. Depending on what you are looking for, you will see and experience either the immaterial ideal world of Relationships. Or you can see the real world of Objects. It's a matter of perspective, as in Einstein's principle of Relativity. But some people seem to be blind (intentionally ?) to the reality of Relationships. And that is the whole point of Carlo Rovelli's latest book, HELGOLAND. The traditional belief of Science was that scientists can stand outside the Real world, and see it as it really is. But Kant shot-down that notion, long before Quantum Theory undermined the material foundation of Reality. Rovelli says, "the external point of view is a point of view that does not exist".

Rovelli goes on to say, while discussing the meaning of Information, that "this condition [subjectivity], which is perhaps a problem for naive materialism, is beautifully satisfied if we rethink matter as interaction and correlations". [my bracket] In my experience, the primary argument against Ideal concepts is based on the authoritative belief system (dogma) of Naive Materialism. That prejudice is understandable though, because we are all materialists, when we tend to the needs of the body. But the tip of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is "Self-Actualization", which has nothing to do with the physical body, but focuses on the meta-physical Self, which is merely an idea in the mind. Naive Materialism tends to view the mental aspects of the world as merely various functions of Matter.

My "Idealist" perspective turns that primacy around, to view Matter as merely one form of meta-physical Information. Rovelli emphasizes that Real/Ideal distinction by listing some of the obviously immaterial forms of mentality : "The mental world has different aspects --- meaning, intentionality, values, objectives, ends, emotions, aesthetic and moral senses, mathematical intuition, perception, creativity, consciousness . . . ." When Plato imagined a separate realm of Ideal Forms, those immaterial qualities are what he had in mind. Of course, that ideal realm is not really separate, just metaphorically on a different plane, so to speak. And it's metaphorical language, comparing ideal concepts with real objects, that annoy Naive Materialists. They will, of course, deny that label. But, you can label me a Redealist. :cool:

Naive Materialism :
According to the naïve realist, the objects of perception are not merely representations of external objects, but are in fact those external objects ... ___Wiki

Ideality :
* In Plato’s theory of Forms, he argues that non-physical forms (or ideas) represent the most accurate or perfect reality. Those Forms are not physical things, but merely definitions or recipes of possible things. What we call Reality consists of a few actualized potentials drawn from a realm of infinite possibilities.
1. Materialists deny the existence of such immaterial ideals, but recent developments in Quantum theory have forced them to accept the concept of “virtual” particles in a mathematical “field”, that are not real, but only potential, until their unreal state is collapsed into reality by a measurement or observation. To measure is to extract meaning into a mind. [Measure, from L. Mensura, to know; from mens-, mind]
2. Some modern idealists find that scenario to be intriguingly similar to Plato’s notion that ideal Forms can be realized, i.e. meaning extracted, by knowing minds. For the purposes of this blog, “Ideality” refers to an infinite pool of potential (metaphorically equivalent to a quantum field), of which physical Reality is a small part.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

Not really. The distinction you make here makes no actual difference because frequencies of "blinking" are mathematically – not "figuratively" – synonomous with wave patterns. — 180 Proof

OK. What is mathematics made of? Is it a collection of discrete (quantum particles), or universal fluid substance of some kind? Or is mathematics a human construct of imagination to represent the invisible relationships in nature? Do you think a dog would see a geometric triangle in an array of three unconnected dots? If the dog "sees" invisible lines between things, he may have a rudimentary grasp of geometry.

The distinction I was making is between the actual dots (objects) and the imaginary links (subjective). The white triangle illusion in the post above is an illustration of how human minds (dog minds??) fill-in the absences between things. Mathematical relationships (ratios) are imaginary (figurative, metaphorical) connections, not real (physical, material) bridges between objects. A mathematical "structure" (geometry) is not synonymous with a physical structure (steel beams) :cool:

"When an image is incomplete, your brain fills in the gaps by figuring out the most likely interpretation."
https://www.amnh.org/explore/ology/brain/optical-illusions-and-how-they-work/filling-in

I don't think this works. Information is perturbations of a field. Without these perturbations a field would be flat , no information would exist, so nothing would exist. — Pop

You're aware that the notion of a field is an imaginary mathematical construct, right? It's used like a matrix to organize abstractions into something resembling concrete reality. The field is physical only in the sense that it is a tool for mathematical physicists. They can't smash a field in a cyclotron. It's actually a metaphor, but they treat it as-if it's a real thing.

Do you disagree that Information is "weightless, frictionless, undetectable mathematical relationships"? If not, do you imagine those "perturbations" as literal waves in a fluid medium? :chin:

If the quantum field is not composed of "particles", what is the field made of?
https://www.quora.com/If-the-quantum-field-is-not-composed-of-particles-what-is-the-field-made-of

The mystery is what specifically integrates the information, given that the integration of the information is subconscious, and the answer seems to be that the information integrates itself. Given that information integrates itself everywhere else, why should it not in mind? — Pop

In the case illustrated in my post, the integration of discrete bits of information into a smooth curve is done in the mind of the observer. I'm not sure what you mean by "information integrates itself". That does sound mysterious. Please explain. :smile: