I'm not sure I'm following that. If we could create something from nothing, to posit meaninglessness, frankly, would not even be an issue or concern.
Ex nihilo creation is logically absurd. Thus if it is true the universe is logically absurd. It would then be incomprehensible and mysticism would not exist. If the idea is that God created it from nothing then this is not an ex nihilo theory. — FrancisRay
Just curious as to your take on this. Do you think Kantian intuition, noumenon, etc. is closely related to Christian Revelation (revelatory knowledge about a novel thing)? — 3017amen
Yes! The underlying idea is that Reality is a Unity as described by the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity. Kant got most of the way there but we have to go beyond Kant for an understanding of the noumenal. .
. . — FrancisRay
Unfortunately, using logic, the subconscious and conscious mind would transcend common logic. Like the law of bivalence, one cannot clearly delineate the object perceived as being unitary, or describe it in a unitary fashion without contradiction. For instance, driving while daydreaming, then crashing and dying, provides for the phenomenon of the mind performing two functions simultaneously. In that case, either the conscious or subconscious mind was driving, not dreaming of a beach in the Med.. And so in that strict sense neither the conscious nor the subconscious was driving, there was some combination of both at work.
And that suggests, although a great description (yours!) in its own right, a self-organized mind or entity is nonetheless incomplete, in a strict logical sense. And accordingly, we know Heisenberg and /Gödel demonstrated the flaws in logic's completeness and resulting randomness, which perhaps leads us to this... . — 3017amen
Good point. I guess this is based on Kant's pure reason? This is applicable to all and every thought. It is really a criticism of dualism. — Pop
a monist ( where everything is made of the same stuff ) and a believer in phenomenology I wonder If emotions play a role at the fundamental level in the same way they do in consciousness, causing integrity. The best way that I can currently put it is that things are biased to integrate, and a bias is an emotion! It sounds crazy in our time, but I can not absolutely exclude it, and I am attracted to the idea of a world where everything is conscious and emotional. I think it would be an improvement on the world we currently have. Any thoughts? — Pop
Can you kindly explain in what sense religion is a "natural/physical science"? Thank you. — EricH
If I am self aware one way and you are self aware in another way, can it be said we are self aware? — Pop
I like both being in and getting out. — Manuel
I think that, in many instances such as "meaning questions", Louis Armstrong's phrase can be applied:
“If you gotta ask, you ain't never gonna know. — Manuel
Tell me more about Kantian intuition, and perhaps I can add more. — Pop
do you think that non-mental being exists? That is existence that has no mental properties whatsoever? — Manuel
Does science tell us about things in themselves generally? Can we have an idea of what they could be? — Manuel
Could you describe what you mean by being and becoming? — unintelligiblekai
Well said. My apologies. A trap I often fall into indeed. Be well. — Xtrix
Paul Davies' book The Mind of God' is an excellent introduction to metaphysics. — FrancisRay
Not at all, If ex nihilo creation was the case then the universe would be absurd and meaningless, and we could never know much about it. — FrancisRay
...or is understanding of its existence and properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought?
A subtle issue. The Truth would be beyond thought, much as Kant surmises, but this is not to say we cannot usefully think about it. An intellectual understanding would be possible, but only for those who have explored what lies beyond the intellect — FrancisRay
In that sense, the theories of multiverse and other possible worlds come into play. Meaning, there may be a whole other metaphysical language (mathematics, logic, etc.) that is needed.
I think not. But we have to be much more careful than usual with our use of logic. ... . — FrancisRay
It is generally assumed that metaphysical questions take the form 'A/not-A', but the mystics deny this. . . — FrancisRay
Mr. Wood,
Thanks again for your question(s). I would suggest you, at the very least, start here (that way you might find you'll have to reformulate most of your questions): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_science ↪3017amen And you found a reference to religion there where exactly? ....under life science.
— 3017amen
Fifth time asking. — tim wood
which is devoid of meaning. — Xtrix
This response is as coherent as anything else you’ve said. — Xtrix
What you say makes some sense. But for me metaphysics is a matter of logic and reason and it makes no difference who's doing it or what we want from it. It's just cold, hard logic.The facts of metaphysiis are demonstrable. It makes no difference whether we're a physicist, a mystic or a plumber. — FrancisRay
It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just a word used to explain another word, and this is supposed to be interesting. It’s really the incoherent ramblings of someone on the Internet. Even if it were true— who cares? Maybe everything is organization. Yes. Maybe everything is God, nature, energy, will, reason, objectivity, etc etc. Just add it to the list and then we can feel like we’ve accomplished something. — Xtrix
And so if we were to use this logic, our own sense of logic, it would not be able to explain the nature in this case of [your] self-organization. For that reason it transcends our sense of logic. (The conscious and subconscious mind all working together of course is a whole nother discussion/distinction.) — 3017amen
The conscious and the subconscious are not necessarily in conflict. Recent research shows brain structure changes in response to new ideas. — Pop
Complexity theory would have it that self organization arises fundamentally from fluctuating patterns of energy. Is this all there is to it? Is it arbitrary? — Pop
Is time merely a concept or the interpreted signals of what the world may be like to the senses? and by the world I mean experiences of physics in motion.
Then again with my own word. The concept of time, how would one best describe it? — unintelligiblekai
recent years Heisenberg's uncertainty has been challenged by decoherence - this story is yet to pan out, imo.
By transcendent I assume you mean subconscious. Self organization is largely subconscious, but this doesn't mean its totally beyond understanding. — Pop
If a dualist believes in the necessary phenomenon of subjective and objective truth, does that in itself imply a dichotomous cognition?
In constructivist psychology, holding two contradictory concepts as being equally true is the model for mental illness. — Pop
consciousness, which we don't understand, happens because of the "will," which we also don't understand. — Xtrix
They're both abstract. Whatever an "a prior syllogism" is, I don't know. But if it's a syllogism, it's abstract. — Xtrix
Either define your terms or stop wasting everyone's time. — Xtrix
The study of metaphysics reveals that all extreme metaphysical theories are logically absurd. — FrancisRay
Quite why so few people see it is a comlpex question, but I think mainly it is because professional philosophers don't do their job properly. — FrancisRay
That neat & tidy Black & White worldview allows him to make concise & emphatic comments on the ambiguous & equivocal concepts that frivolous philosophers concern themselves with. — Gnomon
Heisenberg, accepted the challenge of their baffling "facts", and attempted to reconcile their ambiguous quantum calculations with the mysticism of Eastern Philosophy — Gnomon
Consciousness can be anything we define it as, because we don’t understand it. — Xtrix
However, for the sake of logical discussion, what makes that question incoherent?
— 3017amen
Because it’s like asking about the molecular structure of ectoplasm. Or like asking “Why do things happen?” — Xtrix
No. You said logic isn’t abstract. Logic most certainly is abstract, as is mathematics.
Consciousness can be anything we define it as, because we don’t understand it. — Xtrix
No. I’m referring to what you and I do every day, almost every second of every day in fact. We talk to ourselves all day long. Introspect for a while and you’ll see what I mean. — Xtrix
This gives us the 'One ' of Plotinus and the claim that Reality and Consciousness are the same unitary phenomenon.
Thus while the rejection of mind-body dualism opens the door to various other ideas, the rejection of all dualism leads ineluctably to mysticism and the single, unique metaphysical doctrine that is non-dualism. . — FrancisRay
It's a great topic, but I agree with Xtrix in that it lacks definition. We are considering one indefinite term ( metaphysics ) as it relates to another indefinite term ( Philosophy ), as it relates to another indefinite term ( consciousness ). The result is frustratingly vague for me. — Pop
The words consciousness and self - organization are interchangeable - — Pop
...the mind is viewed as something like a vast blank form which determines the kinds of answers that can be given, but not the specific content which only experience can determine. The forms of intuition, the logical functions of judgment and the categories, fix the necessary conditions of both experience and knowledge but the actual content arises only from something independent of us
Are you basically saying consciousness is a mystery?
— 3017amen
Yes, in a scientific sense. In a practical sense, it's the most obvious thing in the world. — Xtrix
To say formal logic isn’t abstract is absurd
— Xtrix
Really? What's abstract about all men are mortal?
— 3017amen
This is baffling. What's abstract about syllogisms? It's like saying "What's abstract about 2+2=4?"
Logic is usually called a "formal science." It's very similar to mathematics. Both are grounded in abstractions. I don't see how this is difficult. — Xtrix
1. What are feelings?
2. What are my experiences made of?
3. Where do my needs reside? For example, is that some sort of metaphysical Will (Schopenauer)? Are the manifestations of the Will itself abstract?
4. Are junk thoughts a euphemism for Maslonian stream of consciousness, and if so, does the law of non-contradiction/excluded middle logically apply to the conscious and subconscious mind?
Maybe just pick one, if you care to... I'm trying to understand your assertion that consciousness is not abstract.
— 3017amen
I'm saying the sentence "consciousness is abstract" is completely meaningless. Abstraction is a cognitive process -- conceptualizations, symbols, words, etc., are all involved in abstraction. Consciousness -- in the ordinary use of the word -- is simply human life, human experience. Abstraction -- like thought, like language, like vision, like hunger -- is one feature of human experience.
So to make a wild statement like that is equivalent, in my view, of saying "experience is hunger," or "consciousness is vision." It's just confusion through and through. — Xtrix
Question 2 is completely incoherent, as I've pointed out before. It assumes there's a materialist explanation for something we have no concrete understanding of, apart from our own subjectivity. — Xtrix
It's what goes on all day long when you're talking to yourself. — Xtrix
think most of what you said is rife with confusion, to be honest. — Xtrix
The difference between what’s abstract and what’s logical isn’t that clear. — Xtrix
To say formal logic isn’t abstract is absurd — Xtrix
say “consciousness is abstract” to me is utter nonsense. I think you’re just confusing yourself with semantics—a common occurrence. — Xtrix
We’re alive, we see and hear things, we have experiences, feelings, emotions, needs, etc., and much of our lives consist of junk thought, phatic communication, and unconscious activity — Xtrix
And so we don't actually see the math that is unseen, behind the design of the structure. Yet its essence is abstract and can be replicated/built/created through math and material. — 3017amen
This is like saying we don't see the "words" behind things. Mathematics is something humans do. There's little reason to think the structure of everything is essentially mathematical. That's a projection. — Xtrix