Oh well whatever.

This topic makes me too angry.

It would be interesting to know the specific offenses. — Vera Mont

It is too controversial people are in denial.

I posted a link to a site documenting crimes based on gender identity on another thread which you can seek out yourself

and someone here wanted the web site to get banned but the website still exist.

This whole gender identity are is now the most toxic subject on line. J K Rowling get has got numerous death threats, abuse and rape threats because of her comments in this area.

The result is a toxic environment of denial delusion and censorship which is shameful, like a lot about this period in history. Lies upon lies by people who apparently don't like reality.

I have to be careful what I say to avoid my own censorship. If I was drunk I would be more loosed lip but shame on these new tyrants censoring free speech and denying reality. Men have chopped up their penis to make a pseudo vagina. Gay men who were led to believe they could be women and now they regret it and people are enabling this social disaster to go on by lies and censorship it enrages me. I nearly feel hate towards the people enabling this.

Has someone posted an explanation yet of why most violence, sex offences and crime per se is committed by men throughout history.

It clearly isn't socialisation. There is no evidence it is socialisation and there is no evidence of a change in trends. I have never been in a formal situation where men have been encouraged to be antisocial outside of male banter (all male social situations) and the school playground. Men are spontaneously aggressive. Men and women want to do different jobs. Women aren't desperate to be car mechanics and plumbers.

I think there is some reality denial going on and a lack of evidence being presented over quite trite theories and wishful thinking.

Reality doesn't care about feelings and hypothesises.

Someone trying to behave like the opposite sex is futile. I am a male all my behaviour is male by dint of it being mine. I live as a male not a non binary multigendered invented woo entity.

"Globally, 12 million girls each year get married before the age of 18 - roughly 33,000 every day, or one every two seconds. There are some 650 million women alive today who were child brides."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/surprising-stats-about-gender-inequality/

This happen to biological females in societies controlled by men.

Here is the evidence presented to the Women and equalities commission in the UK parliament on crime levels among transgender Women. From a long Term Swedish study"

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

"The researchers state: ‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.’ MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or
for violent offending. The group examined were those who committed to surgery, and so were more tightly defined than a population based solely on self-declaration."

These are people who are going out of their to present as female yet retaining male patterns of criminality.

Obviously there are biological differences between the sexes, and traits that are biologically based: chromosomes, genitalia, differences in average height/weight/etc. No one is claiming that there is no such thing as biological sex — busycuttingcrap

Here's an article entitled the Myth of biological sex:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/?sh=5da28cc876b9

"But, biological sex isn’t as straightforward as they likely think, and there is no one parameter that makes a person biologically male or female"

Opinion: Biological Science Rejects the Sex Binary, and That’s Good for Humanity

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/biological-science-rejects-the-sex-binary-and-that-s-good-for-humanity-70008

"The oceans are filled with species of fish that change from one sex to another midlife, and some who change back again. There are invertebrate hermaphrodites and ladies-only lizards who reproduce by recombining their own chromosome"

Because women and mens bodies differ that is good reason to expect their psychology to differ. Using outlying cases of developmental disorders that affect men or women (to create an imaginary spectrum) and using other species that can change sex or are hermaphrodite as examples is tool to undermine the importance or relevance of widespread sex differences.

And the kind of traits you keep talking about are generally not traits dictated by biological sex, but traits associated with socially-enforced gender roles and expectations- that women are caring and nurturing and so on, that men are strong and assertive and aggressive and all that. — busycuttingcrap

Women are more caring and nurturing they are consistently more involved in caring roles and males are always incarcerated at much higher rates and commit the vast majority of sex crimes.

As a male growing up no one discouraged me from being caring and encouraged me to commit violence and sex crimes.

There are biological explanations for this especially since a woman carries a child for nine months and can breast feed it and is best suited for the primary child care role.

I posted a study in a previous thread I stared about Changing Sex that showed that Trans women exhibit the same criminality patterns as biological males. I can repost it here if you want it.

My identity is very important -- to me. Important enough that I spend quite a bit of time dithering about it -- privately. No, I have no doubts whatsoever about my past, present, or future sex, gender, or sexual orientation. I know where I come from, though my background is not necessarily consistent with where I find myself today (retired old gay man). I presented myself frankly: what you saw was what you got. — Bitter Crank

This seems true for me.

But could it be illusory?

Are we same person through time or have we changed in many ways without realising it?

I believe I am the same sex and sexual orientation and the same person that went to a particular school decades ago. But I know some of my beliefs and values have changed.

I still have a love of classical music and playing musical instruments and I have always been philosophical. I discovered a love of music of black origin and lost an interest in cookery.

Something persists in me that allows me to know I am the same person over time. It may be a soul or spirit or just a persistence of core memories.

On The movie database IMDb's "Top 100"

The top move rated movie is the Phallocentric The Shawshank Redemption with 2,676,899 votes cast

followed by The Godfather and The Dark Knight

Of the top 100 only 2 have female leads including Silence of the Lambs and two or three more have joint female leads and only one of the films is about the female experience.

You might say "Psycho" has a female lead although she is someone who is brutally stabbed to death in the shower in the nude in the movie so not really aspirational.

A man can act "feminine" by changing his behaviour and vice versa. — Benkei

How could I act feminine?

Here is some interesting detail on the characters male creator:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Moulton_Marston

"Marston posited that there is a masculine notion of freedom that is inherently anarchic and violent and an opposing feminine notion based on "Love Allure" that leads to an ideal state of submission to loving authority"

Though Marston had described female nature as being more capable of submission emotion, in his other writings and interviews,[23] he referred to submission as a noble practice and did not shy away from the sexual implications, saying:

The only hope for peace is to teach people who are full of pep and unbound force to enjoy being bound... Only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self in human relationships can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society... Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element.[32]

One of the purposes of these bondage depictions was to induce eroticism in readers as a part of what he called "sex love training." Through his Wonder Woman comics, he aimed to condition readers to becoming more readily accepting of loving submission to loving authorities rather than being so assertive with their own destructive egos. About male readers, he later wrote: "Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves!"[33]

Marston combined these themes with others, including restorative and transformative justice, rehabilitation, regret and their roles in civilization. These appeared often in his depiction of the near-ideal Amazon civilization of Paradise Island, and especially its "Reform Island" penal colony, which played a central role in many stories and was the "loving" alternative to retributive justice of the world run by men. These themes are particularly evident in his last story, in which prisoners freed by Eviless, who have responded to Amazon rehabilitation and now have good dominance/submission, stop her and restore the Amazons to power

Big thanks to the contributors to these articles.

Here is some Background on Wonder Woman.

"Wonder Woman is a superhero created by the American psychologist and writer William Moulton Marston (pen name: Charles Moulton),[2] and artist Harry G. Peter. Marston's wife, Elizabeth, and their life partner, Olive Byrne,[3] are credited as being his inspiration for the character's appearance"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman

"Although created to be a positive role-model and a strong female character for girls and boys,[250] in the controversial Seduction of the Innocent, psychiatrist Fredric Wertham claimed, as a point of criticism, that Wonder Woman's strength and independence made her a lesbian"

"In 1972, just months after the groundbreaking US Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade, science fiction author Samuel R. Delany had planned a story for Ms. that culminated in a plainclothes Wonder Woman protecting an abortion clinic. However, Steinem disapproved of Wonder Woman being out of costume, and the controversial story line never happened.[256]

The original significance of Wonder Woman had the intentions of influencing many women of all ages, displaying the physical and mental strengths, values, and ethical attributes that not only men acquire. "Wonder Woman symbolizes many of the values of the women's culture that feminists are now trying to introduce into the mainstream: strength and self-reliance for women; sisterhood and mutual support among women; peacefulness and esteem for human life; a diminishment both of 'masculine' aggression and of the belief that violence is the only way of solving conflicts," Steinem wrote at the time."

It is so easy for people to criticise trans people for what they are doing. — Jack Cummins

What is a trans person and what are they doing? I know a lot about this area. There isn't a coherent consistent definition of trans and it is now a legally recognised right to be skeptical of gender ideology (see Maya Forstater) I don't share your gender religion.

There are hundreds of identities and people are having bizarre frankly unethical surgeries like having their nipples or part of their breasts removed to express their androgyny and non binary identities. (I can present photos and links)

I think the onus is on gender ideologist to explain and defend their claims. If someone trans identified or with a special gender identity wants to defend there position on this thread (through reason) nothing is stopping them. I would welcome the enlightenment but I have read peoples own accounts numerous time and they are incoherent and fantastical.

History is about dominance and even this thread could be seen as sexist because it is largely men talking about women. — Jack Cummins

There is nothing stopping women participating in this thread, joining this forum and disputing claims made on this thread. This happens to be a male dominated forum as is philosophy as a subject.

Men interact with women a lot, read women's accounts, read about human biology, there are many male gynaecologists. they are not unexposed to women, the concepts involved and have informative interactions with them usually from birth.

I am happy for women to talk about men and happy to challenge there opinion if I disagree with it.
You seem to be implying that no one can have any insight into anyone else if they are not them. (solipsism?)
There appears to be objective facts about the world such as biological facts and statistics about male and female criminality etc.
I am not going to ask anyone's permission to have an opinion on them that is thought policing and a dishonest form of communication.

How should I know, and why is it relevant? Also, aren't radical feminists basically the female equivalent to incels? — Tzeentch

Have you heard of a radical feminist going on a shooting spree?

Radical feminism maybe damaging in its own way that I can accept.

But we are talking about crime, anti social behaviour, murder and war. I can also accept this may be caused by male DNA and Hormones but this thread is about celebrating what women bring to the table (even if some of these things prove to be exaggerated stereotypes.) Not bashing men.

Judith Butler, spoke of gender as performance — Jack Cummins

I view her as a big villainess who has encouraged the rejection of reality and the mutilation of bodies. Apparently she may have had her own breasts removed.

If gender is a performance apparently, for her, part of the performance is poisoning yourself on wrong sex hormones that increase your risk of dementia, eyesight loss and heart attack
and then the sterilising effects of genital mutilation and puberty blockers.

I can't imagine our biology intended to get it self mangled for a mental image we have of our self.

I see the performance of gender as lying and unnecessary in the same way I felt no shame what so ever reading books written for teenage girls (Sweet dreams/Sweet Valley high) and I felt no shame for not liking football and cars.

I hate the mindless stupidity of the easily led. To be blunt. Now even non conformity is conformity and people pretend to have a series of wacky identities which are all seeming to be annoying, shallow, unintellectual postures.

Now I have big reservations when I see someone with blue hair, tattoos and piercings and so on.

Women carry a child to term and give birth and are the primary care givers of children.
It makes sense that women and mens biology and psyche are different for survival reasons and child care. Men may need to use superior strength to protect a woman when she is very pregnant. It would explain aggression trends and other things.

Biology creates an immutable division between men and women and that is the only way children can be produced.

Crude prejudices and stereotypes exist but dismantling them does not dismantle biological difference.

People may play up to stereotypes of be unable to fulfil them. I am a tall bulky gay man who doesn't like sport and used to hang around with girls in primary school and read loads of books aimed at teen girls.

I never questioned my sex because I never identified stereotypes as having much substance. But stereotypes may emerge from trneds among population groups and have some truth.

What doesn't follow from what?

I don't know what you mean by a stereotype here.

Most sub Saharan Africans are black. The white people living there are not a sub category of black. It doesn't disprove the the idea that Africa is a black continent.

Things that are mainly exhibited by women are because women exist not because someone invented these traits. Gender ideology doesn't make sense especially if you don't recognise biological reality as a basis for traits.

If I wanted to be more Chinese I would have to have skin colour and feature alterations under surgery to Match the biological reality of ethnic Chinese eating loads of Chinese food and learning to speak mandarin would not make me Chinese.

Isn't parenthood greatly valued in any society? Guess how much that pays. — Tzeentch

The argument is no and that is why it is unpaid work.

Super heroes are for children. — Tzeentch

I would wager that most people that watch super hero films are adults and that they have some cultural influence. Why do you think things like the Dc franchise are so popular?

How come there is not the female equivalent to Incels?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

Incels have now committed acts of mass murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#Mass_murders_and_violence

"On August 4, 2009, George Sodini opened fire at an LA Fitness health club in Collier Township, a suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Three women were murdered and nine other people were injured before Sodini killed himself.[142][143] He purportedly expressed sexual frustration and complained of constant rejections by women on a website registered in his name.[144] Sodini and his actions have been embraced and glorified by some members of incel communities, who sometimes refer to incel violence as "going Sodini"

Those aren't male or female traits but gender stereotypes. — Benkei

Statistics would disagree.

I don't think the statistics about the number of women working in care and the amount of men in prison are caused by stereotyping but likely by biological traits.

Do you think men should ape women and vice versa?

Where men occupy a role usually occupied by women that can be an outlier like a male nurse but not evidence that men and women are the same.

By whom? I can't think of anyone I know that doesn't value those traits highly. — Tzeentch

Popular culture.

I grew up as a male around young males of my age and older and I was badly bullied physically and otherwise. Completely different experience with men and women. I have had problems with women but not the same kind as with men and also the crime rates reflect the differences between males and females 90% of crime done by men including the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes. Also most suicides are men which you can view as violence against the self.

What evidence do you have that society values female traits (considering the pay for jobs dominated by women) How many super heroes are female.

How come heroes have to be aggressive and strong and vengeful and not caring and nurturing and reasonable?

Here are some suggestions of what we are listed on: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/

We are biological organisms (“animalism”: Snowdon 1990, 2014, van Inwagen 1990, Olson 1997, 2003a).

We are material things “constituted by” organisms: a person made of the same matter as a certain animal, but they are different things because what it takes for them to persist is different (Baker 2000, Johnston 2007, Shoemaker 2011).

We are temporal parts of animals: each of us stands to an organism as your childhood stands to your life as a whole (Lewis 1976).

We are spatial parts of animals: brains perhaps (Campbell and McMahan 2010, Parfit 2012), or temporal parts of brains (Hudson 2001, 2007).

We are partless immaterial substances—souls—as Plato, Descartes, and Leibniz thought (see also Unger 2006: ch. 7), or compound things made up of an immaterial soul and a material body (Swinburne 1984: 21).

We are collections of mental states or events: “bundles of perceptions”, as Hume said (1739 [1978: 252]; see also Quinton 1962, Campbell 2006).

There is nothing that we are: we don’t really exist at all (Russell 1985: 50, Wittgenstein 1922: 5.631, Unger 1979, Sider 2013).

Of course, vulnerable as we are, we are cradled within the family, society, a bedrock of rules etc, but with the purpose of becoming individuals, people realizing their autonomy. — Tobias

How does one realise their autonomy?

They can't choose their genes, their parents, their country of birth, their sex and so on on.
A lot of theorists no longer believe in free will. How are autonomy and the belief in no free will compatible?

I don't think that necessity to get a job or to work/strive to avoid starving is autonomy
but brute necessity. If you need someone to assist and legalise your suicide that does not indicate autonomy either.

At best committing suicide by your own hand is autonomy but not involving others and enforcing legislation that effects others.

Autonomy has a large discussion page on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy#Philosophy

This topic can also be linked to the topic of personal identity which I made a thread about as well and who is it that persists over time. If, as I mentioned earlier, you are put in a coma before dying naturally does that person in a coma have interests? Who is this autonomous individual? Peoples beliefs and identities change through time and this applies to peoples suicidality and value towards life.

Because you say so, nice. — Tobias

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see a definition of it here. Listening to debates on this on You Tube people used the autonomy argument there but failed to define or justify it as if we all agreed on something before hand (Begging the question).

That people need each other does not mean that one can make decisions for them. Sure I am reliant on my parents up until a certain age, however when I am 'of legal age', I can decide for myself how long I stay out at night. — Tobias

You can only safely stay out at night because of a social contract and a police service.

Some people are attacked when walking at night so this doesn't prove you have an autonomy that is not provided or dependent by social structures.
I think the theory of social autonomy leads to antinatalism and defeats itself because autonomy is not possible due to the nature of procreation and fundamental lack of consent.

In the Netherlands where we have such laws, physicians will not just put you down (at least they should not lest they commit manslaughter) because you have lost the will to live. — Tobias

But they have done that.

I think if you are something you don't need to identify as it.

For example if you are black you are black and you won't become white by identifying as white and vice versa (Rachel Dolezal). The act of identification seems to be an appraisal of the truth of a claim. Am I a man? Yes AM I pianist? Yes

Personal identity probably consists in facts about yourself in one sense or just Personal facts about you such as height, job description, intelligence, preferences.

Self appraisal and the appraisal of others could consist of numerous things but without necessarily carrying truth.

I don't think you can create a true personal identity by wishful thinking or artifice. People might misidentify you if you are a non police officer dressed as a serving officer etc.

Because we consists of a huge range of things including biology, memories, life decisions, life events etc there probably isn't a word or a few words to encapsulate a personal identity. An autobiography might be more accurate.

I think people have failed to defend the notion of autonomy.

The people who have the most autonomy are the people with the most interventions and assistance and the most access to resources.

It is not a Natural state. We are not created through or with our autonomy. We are unable to care for ourselves for several years so cannot rely on our autonomy as we are reliant on parents and other adults.

If we have a desire to be a doctor or pilot etc we need pre-existing societies structures like scientific institues, roads, money and welfare systems. The more of these societally created tools the more we can fulfil our desires. There are few desires we can fulfill if left alone in the wild. So we are in something of a social contract where we are provided services due to cooperation and giving up some freedoms for others.

Assisted suicide is being pushed by people who are already privileged have increased autonomy given by others through societal innovation and support not the truly disenfranchised who have been the biggest victims of euthanasia and have lives determined unworthy.

Lack of desire to live can often be associated with and induced by helplessness, learned helpless and disenfranchisement and that was my experience of feeling suicidal. Not autonomy and choice. Feeling pushed to die by suffering or fear of is an experience of coercion.

What you provided was evidence that people who disapprove of assisted suicide disapprove of itand don't discuss it with people who do approve of it. — Vera Mont

Where did I do that?

My dad worked with the Elderly for decades. I had a discussion with him and he talked about his experiences of working with the elderly not about whether assisted suicide should be legalised and his experience that they often were reluctant to die. Neither of us were on a campaign trail or doing political advocacy.

He is also the person who encouraged the doctors in intensive care to keep my older brother alive and not turn off his life support and after my brother survived that he went onto meet his wife and get married and lived for another 10+ years.

I went into hospital in the ambulance with my brother when he had pneumonia But I couldn't stay and advocate his wishes because I had a severe cold and had been up all night with him so I had to go home to bed.

My brothers carers and may have supported assisted suicide but didn't express that in the years I was involved with them. The other evidence I provided in my next post was a survey of doctors and palliative care experts

You provided no evidence but claimed people that work with the ill and dying strongly supported assisted dying.

I don't know anyone who is politically campaigning against assisted suicide. I have not been involved in politically campaigning. Your position is the most political it seems. Voicing concerns is not politically campaigning.

Here is an example of a Doctors survey from 2009 UK.

"There are many other (non peer-reviewed) surveys of British doctors' views in the public domain, a total of fourteen of which are thoroughly reviewed in the seventh appendix of the 2005 report of the House of Lords Select Committee on the Assisted Dying for the Terminally Ill Bill [24]. In addition to these is the submission to the committee by the Association for Palliative Medicine of a survey of 610 members carried out in 2003 showing 565 (93%) opposed legalising assisted suicide. "

https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1472-6939-10-2

There is a range of studies I can find eventually including when where the public were questioned about the definition of assisted suicide and it was clear a lot of people did not know what it was and what it entailed and support for it dropped when they knew the true definition.

It isn't necessary. There are plenty of people ready to help voluntarily. Many of the strongest advocates of legalizing assisted suicide have been health-care workers who had too watch too many patients suffer through terminal illness that no decent person would allow their pet to endure. — Vera Mont

Can you provide any evidence for this claim? I can provide evidence to the contrary.

My Dad was a geriatric nurse for the largest part of his working life working in a hospital for the elderly. He saw lots of old people dying and he didn't witness a demand for an assisted death but did witness people reluctant to die. He died this year and was not eager to die despite a range of health problems including chronic back problems and diabetes.

One of my Sisters was a community nurse for ten years who also witnessed people dying and she didn't support assisted suicide and talked about how good palliative care could be.

My late brothers illness left him severely disabled, paralysed for several years and only communicating by blinking and he wanted to be kept alive until the last moment when his body completely gave up. (It's called a desire for life)

None of the nurses and care workers involved involved with him expressed an opinion on assisted suicide that I can remember but none of them advocated it loudly if they held that opinion.

Old people in reasonable health are killing themselves long before they need to die, and in unnecessarily painful and messy ways, for fear that if they are no longer strong and independent when the time is right — Vera Mont

Statistics please.

There are quick accessible ways to potentially painlessly kill yourself if you are able bodied.
And if you don't fear death.
If people don't have access to advanced palliative care how would they have access to assisted suicide?

Your side of the argument are doing your own scaremongering and convincing healthy old people that they could face and unpleasant and unbearable death.
Several of the most prominent terminally ill assisted suicide campaigners died peacefully and or quickly in the end

Terry Pratchett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett#Death
.
"Pratchett died at his home from complications of Alzheimer's disease on the morning of 12 March 2015. He was 66 years old.[59] The Telegraph reported an unidentified source as saying that despite his previous discussion of assisted suicide, his death had been natural."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian#Illness_and_death

"Kevorkian had struggled with kidney problems for years.[61] He was diagnosed with liver cancer, which "may have been caused by hepatitis C," according to his longtime friend Neal Nicol.[44] Kevorkian was hospitalized on May 18, 2011, with kidney problems and pneumonia.[1] Kevorkian's condition grew rapidly worse and he died from a thrombosis on June 3, 2011, eight days after his 83rd birthday, at William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan.[1][5] According to his attorney, Mayer Morganroth, there were no artificial attempts to keep him alive and his death was painless"

I can cite several more if needs be

millions of other people should not have to suffer, for the sole purpose of safeguarding your specific personal vulnerabilities. — Vera Mont

No you are throwing millions under the bus and the integrity of the health and care systems and the value of life due to your desire to have someone help kill you. Something you could easily do yourself. Where suicide is legal millions of people are not using it only a few thousand at the most and a minority of the terminally ill.

I have already provided evidence of who is being affected by assisted suicide such as the poor, the lonely and victims of abuse from others.

You could have been drawn to jump off a bridge without any help from me. Are you going to make bridges illegal - just in case? — Vera Mont

There is a bridge that attracts suicides in Bristol UK where I live, it has phone booths on either side for phoning the Samaritans suicide help line. It has guards monitoring each side and cameras. Most bridges like this have phone numbers on them for suicide charities and people volunteer to patrol them looking for distressed people and peoples lives have been saved.

I also raised the cases of my brother who didn't want an assisted suicide despite being paralysed among other things and the case of myself who had undiagnosed cognitive conditions that I received no help for and nearly ended my own life because of the side effects of these conditions.
— Andrew4Handel

I would not have interfered in either of your decisions. But you want to interfere in mine. — Vera Mont

You would have interfered because you want assisted suicide legalised which would mean I could have been drawn to an assisted suicide before knowing I had autism and ADHD. You would have compromised the tricky process of diagnosis and enlightening social attitudes towards cognitive disabilities.
You want to throw vulnerable people under the bus with health systems that are complex and easily compromised and societies marred by social inequalities that make slow progress.

You want a law that effects everyone because of a personal preference. And you fail to comprehend the vulnerability of people who don't want an assisted suicide under your legal system.

You don't have a right to be be killed by someone else and by state legislation, if you do that right has been invented on your behalf and it is not a natural right.

Rights are invented not natural.

This is the comment that triggered me to eventually start this thread.

I have no problem with your faith. You can linger as long as your health care insurance lasts; I won't unplug you against your will. But you just bloody well keep your pious paws off my right to die. Religious people have caused an incredible amount of unnecessary suffering with their "value of human life" claptrap — Vera Mont

↪Andrew4Handel Read the rest of the sentence like you want to comprehend it. — 180 Proof

I am just looking for evidence people value human life. I started this thread with examples including a 44 year old and 24 year old who had assisted suicides for mental health reasons not terminal illness and whose lives were shortened considerably. How is that valuing human life?

Assisted suicide had never just been used on people right at the end of life in severe pain (unless you can provide evidence of this) it has been used to shorten viable lives.

I also raised the cases of my brother who didn't want an assisted suicide despite being paralysed among other things and the case of myself who had undiagnosed cognitive conditions that I received no help for and nearly ended my own life because of the side effects of these conditions.

Keeping the not-quite corpse on ice until God sees fit to collect them — Vera Mont

I see this as hyperbole. In the case of Graham and Dyanne Mansfield you cited earlier

"In evidence from Professor Sikora, by the 23rd March 2021, her life expectancy was between one and four weeks"

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/you-killed-your-wife-tried-24558942

This type of palliative care is used at end of life and not to keep someone in a coma for years or it would not be classed as palliative care.

Texas and Florida have the most guns and the highest suicide rates. Both forbid assisted dying. Texas is second in executions; Florida is 15th. Texas banned most textbooks; Florida was third. — Vera Mont

I do not live in the US of A.

Assisted suicide is illegal in the UK. It doesn't follow logically or causally that the forbidding of assisted suicide leads to high suicide levels and lax gun laws.

Are you claiming that follows logically or are you just trying to claim some kind of logical inevitability.

The value being....? — Vera Mont

Not causing someone's death and devaluing life. Not causing suffering but not ending life. Not making the value of life dependent on one subjective individuals evaluation.

Like this?
I'm beginning to think the pro suicide people lack values and morals.
— Andrew4Handel — Vera Mont

I am basing that on this thread and people contributions, you are linking people who don't want assisted suicide to people who support the death penalty and want lax gun laws.

I am in the UK we don't have lax gun laws or the death penalty and I oppose the death penalty, corporal punishment, indoctrinating children in religion and I strongly oppose the death penalty and support abortion. Your position seems to depend on hyperbole and slurring the opposition. I have personal relevant experience that I have referenced.

People on your side appear to assume they are right and have the good on their side ( for no reason) maybe without the slurring the opposition, hyperbole, bad faith arguments and a heavy dose of personal ideologies your position would be much weaker.

One palliative care option is that people can be put into a coma until they die.

I value "human life" — 180 Proof

In what sense?

It is a fallacy to infer that people who are against assisted suicide support the death penalty.

And it is poisoning the well or guilt by association. There is no logical connection between the positions.

The Nazis had the death penalty, genocide, involuntary euthanasia and assisted dying.

It is like polluting other peoples characters based a complete other persons collection of ideals. That sets the the bar of the debate low and inflammatory.

And by no means are you entitled to impose values on me or anyone else — Tobias

That is what happens when you live in a society and in a democracy.

You are being protected against those who would do you harm by a police and army and laws exist to create a framework for civilisation.