You’ve kind of answered your own question. — Michael

I don't think society and culture treats people like I treat my mates. There would be a lot of upset people.

It’s a biological woman who is psychologically male, and wishes to be treated how society and culture usually treats those who are psychologically male. — Michael

We can go around and around in circles. We all have a few wishes we would like to be granted but why do people need to grant these wishes? Also, I treat people how I see fit. I have some female friends who are treated like one of the blokes. I also, have male friends who are treated with a little more decorum.
How does society and culture treat a male?

You could start with sex differences in psychology. — Michael

Wikipedia? You can do better than that, surely?

Biological men and biological women tend to have a different kind of psychology. The way they think and feel and behave is different — Michael

I am aware that there are differences on average between the sexes but it is not clear cut at all. Men on average are more aggressive but not significantly and there are plenty of non aggressive men.
What kind of differences constitute a male v female?

Sometimes someone who is biologically female develops the kind of psychology typically associated with biological men, and so they identify as men in that psychological sense, and wish to be treated as a man. — Michael

Surely that is a woman who wished to be treated as a man. Not a man. I treat everyone as I see fit and how my subconscious dictates. If I see a transman then I will interact as I see fit. What does treated like a man entail? It can be different for everyone. I tailor my conversation etc to who I'm speaking to.

That their gender identity is male. Gender identity is psychological/social/cultural, not biological. — Michael

But what does that mean?

When they say “I am a man” they are not saying anything about their biology — Michael

What are they saying?

At what point is a person white or black? — RogueAI

He derailed his own thread by misinterpreting my point which was only to say that Trans women are not women. (He disagrees with me on that one) I only mentioned black people and homosexuals because, I thought , (wrongly) that someone else was equating the treatment of blacks, homosexuals and trans people as the same. My point is that there is a fundamental difference with trans people.
Your question is a great one. I am a white European and I have friends from Nigeria who are black. Where the line stops from being black to white is dependent upon definition and (I assume) how society views the person. Luckily, where I live it doesn’t matter because it’s a nice part of UK where everyone gets on together.

I answered him.

terms of gender, a trans woman exactly is a woman, — unenlightened

Ok.

I have no issue with anyone being and thinking whatever they want. How people feel about themselves and their status and how they feel about their biology and their sexual bearing is personal to all.
People need to work out where they fit in society and live their lives.
The issue is when their concept of themselves conflicts with how the world is currently ordered. Then decisions regarding certain aspects of society need to be made.

Aren't you glad that we live in a world where savage beauty can exist? — GregW

Absolutely. We need obstacles for fulfilment.

and beauty absolute have no part of ugliness — GregW

Don’t want to against Plato but I’m not convinced there is a beautifully absolute. It is all relative to the beholder.

I actually don't understand how biological absolutism has anything to do with the struggles of blacks and gays. How is it even vaguely related? — frank

I have no idea. Ask the posters

Please, no more misrepresentations of what I wrote. — T Clark

It’s a discussion and sometimes people misinterpret what someone has wrote. My post has been misinterpreted and misrepresented but I care not. I’m not here to try and persuade someone that they got the wrong end of the stick.

A question - is it still snide if it’s true? — T Clark

Of course not.

You’re missing the point of my post to Amadeus D. Whether or not he, or you, think a trans woman is a woman, it doesn’t change the fact his argument has been used to deny basic rights to black and gay people. — T Clark

I see your point and mis interpreted what your thrust was. Slavery was fine in Ancient Greece and it was fine until it wasn’t. I agree.

You prefer pontification; but only your own. I thought you were going to leave back there? — unenlightened

I’ll decide thanks.

Good idea, your flames are no substitute for an argument. — unenlightened

I prefer discussion but it appears to be beyond you. Which is fine.

Your racial absolutism wasn't very nice. And I didn't even mention black albinos, or non-negro blacks of Papua and Australia, or ...

And discrimination is discrimination, ha ha. — unenlightened

I’m not sure you are the full shilling.

I’ll leave it there.

And fuck your attempt to clarify reality for us all. — unenlightened

That isn't very nice. My point is there is a huge difference between discriminating against Black people, homosexuals versus trans people. The two aren't equivalent at all. However, people seem to make snide insinuations to racism and homophobia.

I am aware Black people and white people are not monochrome.

That's fine. I have some sympathy with your position when we're dealing with transgender issues. But the same arguments have been used for dealing with sexual orientation and race issues. At times, and sometimes still, most bodies want gay and black people to be classified as biologically, or at least socially or morally, atypical not to mention inferior. It's a bad argument in terms of what's right and wrong, but it's right politically - don't try to ram your values down your fellow citizen's throats. There are years of patient groundwork that has to accomplished first if you want to succeed in those kinds of social changes. — T Clark

There is a fundamental difference between trans and other issues.
A Black person is black, a homosexual is homosexual, A trans woman is not a woman.

Philosophical arguments for a trans affirmative stance are interesting, conceptually. — Jeremy Murray

Philosophically I don’t think anyone can jump the gap of their sex and become the opposite gender or non gender. The sex of a person is there for everyone to see unless there is significant surgery and synthetic hormones used.
I have no issue with someone adopting the stereotypical norms of the opposite gender but that is cosplaying and does not reflect the reality that men and women can be whoever they like to be.
If there were no imbalance physically and socially between the sexes then there would be no need for any restrictions on men being allowed in women’s spaces.
However, there is an imbalance so restrictions are necessary until through massive social engineering these imbalances are eliminated.
The trans rights advocates seem to ignore or not see issues that women face despite the many many advances that have been made both legally and socially over the decades.
I assume even the most radical trans advocate has acknowledged that female sports is not a place for trans women.
I have no idea why the subject is seen as complicated. It isn’t.

Just one counterexample is sufficient to disprove your claim that every single human without exception is either (unambiguously) biologically male or (unambiguously) biologically female. — Michael

It's a very very narrow spectrum. 5,999,999,984 female, 28 ambiguous, 5,999,999,984 male

Malcolm Parry and AmadeusD are claiming that every single human without exception is either (unambiguously) biologically male or (unambiguously) biologically female.

My question to them (and to which you respond) was an attempt to have them try to understand that human biology is not so black and white. — Michael

28 out of 12 billion seems fairly black and white.

Given that some human has ovotesticular syndrome caused by 46,XX/46,XY chimerism, what is the biological feature that either makes them a male or makes them a female? Of particular relevance are those with bilateral ovotestis and/or streak gonads, as well as ambiguous genitalia. — Michael

Even sex-discordant chimeras can have a normal male or female phenotype. Only 28 of the 50 individuals with a 46,XX/46,XY karyotype were either true hermaphrodites or had ambiguous genitalia.

That is total number of cases of this disorder that are known. I would say 28 out of say 12 billion. is not statistically significant number to overhaul the binary nature of sex.

But ambiguous does not mean a third sex, surely?

I think he's pointing out that you started by claiming that every human is either unambiguously male or unambiguously female without exception, then you accepted that at least 500 people are an exception, but then later went back to claiming that there are no exceptions. — Michael

I was corrected by AmadeusD.
Even if there are 500 anomalies that is exactly what they are. No spectrum

But yeah, contradiction isn't good without expressing the mental change that's occurred. Maybe he can do so... — AmadeusD

I stated that I was happy to be corrected. I should not have gone down the intersex cul de sac which some are fixated on to give credence to their delusional misogyny.

She says "trans woman" doesn't make any sense, and I can see her point. But if you don't call them that, what do you call them? — frank

Men who think they are women. It’s a bit long winded though.

Change for the better is good. But his a change for the worse, evidenced by his plain contradiction. But let him reconcile it, if he can. — tim wood

I was interested in the syndrome did a bit of googling and the conclusion was that some people were a bit of both. It was a syndrome with 500 known cases. I was corrected by a poster and was happy to be corrected because tiny pockets of developmental defects doesn’t seem change the science of 8 billion people on the planet.
Why is the change for the worse?

Quite frankly, I think that bathrooms should just be individual locking rooms, like what you see at most restaurants. For me the issue isn't whether or not the people in the room have dicks, it's the fact that there's people in the room. — Wolfy48

But the ones that aren’t. Are you happy for men to use them?

sigh*

Actually that was interesting to research.I will no longer state all individuals are either male or female. Some are mosaic 46,XX/46 XY
— Malcolm Parry
It certainly isn’t a spectrum like some claim.
— Malcolm Parry
Because there are only two sexes. Male and female
— Malcolm Parry
— tim wood
Emphasis added. — tim wood

Sigh*

They are male or female. I have responded to Michael on this, harking back to plenty of further support I've given earlier in the thread.
— AmadeusD

I’m happy to stand corrected

. But when a fact is undecided on, — Wolfy48

It isn’t.

Look, I know this is coming from a good place but that is the same excuse that people used to justify racial segregation in the States — Wolfy48

You think men should be able to use women’s bathrooms?

Giveth and taken away, see above. Hmm. Unless "female" and "male" do not correspond to sex. — tim wood

Enlighten me

there is no use arguing over whose opinion is scientifically correc — Wolfy48

Do you think scientific facts are opinions that you may or may not disagree with?

except for all the people that have their identities violated by that interpretation. — Wolfy48

It isn’t my responsibility to affirm someone’s wishes. I’m not going to play along especially if this violates female rights to exclusive areas.

The argument is on gender, not sex, and in any case, the majority of scientists state that there are more than two sexes... (though the others are uncommon) — Wolfy48

We can agree to disagree. I have stated sex is binary and I don’t ascribe to the definition of gender that has been co opted by you and many others who seem happy to allow men to cosplay as women.

Idk man, how would you even scientifically prove how to interpret a definition? — Wolfy48

Sex is binary. It isn’t a spectrum. It isn’t an opinion

Ok so now trans women can go to the bathroom, works for me ;3 — Wolfy48

They were never barred.

That's a valid opinion for you to have, but not one that everyone shares. I certainly don't think that the state should have the right to decide such matters of opinion for the people, but hey, not much I can do about it (yet) — Wolfy48

It is fact. It is (thankfully) law in UK.
I have no issue with trans people dressind and living however they like. However, women have fought for certain rights and I don’t think it is for men to barge into their exclusive spaces. It’s not a wild out there stance surely?

And how does banning trans people from bathrooms accomplish preventing sexual assault? — Wolfy48

Replace trans people with the word men.

Well uhhhh... ok? I personally think that everyone is allowed to form their own opinions when science can't provide a clear answer... — Wolfy48

It has.