The argument is that some of these spaces shouldn't be exclusively for those who are biologically female or for those who are biologically female; that they should be exclusively for those whose gender identity is female or whose gender identity is male.

So what good reasons are there for saying that Bathroom A should only be for biological males and that Bathroom B should only be for biological females? — Michael

The same reason that you yourself happily exclude cisgender males. All those reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role — Michael

Wiki again.

What does it practically mean? People can wear what they like, have sex with who they like, have any job they like, enjoy any pastime they like.

What does living like a woman mean? I know many woman who would be affronted if they were deemed men because they eschewed gender roles.

Someone people, like Malcolm Parry, clearly misunderstood both what laws are and how courts work. — Michael

I didn't. I couldn't care less about anyone's identity apart from when it bumps up against women's rights to fair sport and exclusive places.

The only issue I have is why people insist men have a right to access women's exclusive places. What people think and how they act, I care not.

Yes, words can mean more than one thing. So when you ask "what man is female?" what do you mean by the words "man" and "female"? Do you mean "what biological man is biologically female"? Because the answer to that question is "none", and everyone will agree.

But when someone else says "transgender men are men" they are not saying "transgender men are biologically male" because they mean something else by the word "men".

Your apparent inability to understand this is precisely why you are getting nowhere. — Michael

So, if I go with this definition of men and women.

How does a biological male live like a woman in 2025?

What characteristics mark a male living as a woman?

How does a biological female live like a man in 2025?

What characteristics mark a female living as a man?

Apart from pronouns, infiltrating women's sport and toilets, what is now deemed as living as a woman/man?

Well, for example, I typed "Is a transgender man a man?" into Google and got the result:

"Yes, a transgender man is considered a man. The term "transgender man" refers to an individual who was assigned female at birth but identifies as a man. — Baden

Their gender identity is male, and they live as a man. — Baden

."

She isn't considered a man in UK law. The person is a female trangender man" not a man. They weren't assigned at birth, they are female. No one assigned the sex. It just is.

Their gender identity is male, and they live as a man." — Baden

What does this even mean in 2025? What does living like a man entail?

The reason I got this result is that the dominant current discourse of developed nations does indeed go against biological reality. — Baden

It is utter nonsense and UK law agrees.

That words can mean more than one thing and that the English word “man” doesn’t just mean “a biological male” — Michael

Words can mean more than one thing but what man is female?

A simple list would be sufficient.

My understanding of what you are doing is expressing a cultural value that was formerly implicit due to the absence of a trans discourse, but you would like to be explicitly accepted in opposition to this new discourse. It seems then that you and your interlocutors have different values that you would like to be discursively dominant. As it stands, the idea of gender being separate to biological sex is dominant in most developed countries. Everyone has a right to openly argue for their discursive preferences, but that dominance can be demonstrated as an institutional fact. E.g. Webster's and the Oxford dictionary, recognize gender as having a legitimate meaning that can oppose biological sex.

All I am saying here is that a focus on arguing for your values would seem more productive than denying an institutional social reality. — Baden

I have no issue with anyone one claiming to be whatever gender they like. It is meaningless in the modern world until it comes up against biological reality. When that happens, then biology matters. Sport and women's exclusive places are for women only.

I'm not sure what trans discourse there is that trumps biological reality.

It is a very simple issue people appear to wish to make complicated. I have no idea why.

It is also a fascinating subject. The most fascinating bit is the reactions to the subject.

The phrase “goodwill to all men” from the Bible does not mean “goodwill to all biological males”. It means “goodwill to all people”.

Some words mean more than one thing. The word “bat” can refer to a flying mammal or it can refer to a type of club used in baseball or cricket. The word “man” can refer to a biological male or it can refer to any human. — Michael

You still don't get it. What is your point? Just because mankind or human refers to all humans does not mean a woman is "a man".

The fact that I have to keep repeating this clearly shows that you have reading or comprehension problems. I can’t help you any further. — Michael

I'm fine I understand the subtleties of language well. I know when some people are shoehorning nonsense into a conversation to defend their feeble stance.

We agree on everything other than that some men can be women and vice versa.

That the word “man” doesn’t just mean “a biological male”. How many times do I need to repeat this? — Michael

It does. How many times do I have to repeat this.

Mankind is not a man. Transgender man is not a man. Human is not a man. A man is a biological male.

I'm still not sure what you are trying too prove.

You just desperate for men to infiltrate women's spaces?

That the word "man" doesn't just mean "biologically male". I've been very clear on this. — Michael

But a man is a biological male.

So not all lions are large tawny-coloured cats that live in prides, found in Africa and north-western India. A stuffed toy lion is toy made from fabric that is filled with a soft material, like cotton or synthetic fibres and not a large tawny cat.

I’m still not sure what you are trying to prove. It’s fun though.

"transgender man" being a meaningful phrase in the English language. And sometimes "man" means "human". — Michael

Transgender man is a transgender man. Not a man.

A human is a human. He or she can be a man or woman. The two words came from different sources.
I’m not sure what you are trying to prove.

I’m not saying anything about what words should mean.

I’m saying that:

1) the English noun “man” doesn’t just mean “biologically male”, and
2) transgender men ought be allowed to use men’s bathrooms

Do you understand that these are two completely independent claims and that (1) is simply a descriptive fact about how English speakers speak? — Michael

I’m saying that
1) English noun “man” does mean biologically male in the dictionary I use.
2) women should be allowed to use women’s bathrooms. I agree

The English noun “man” only means “biological man” and the English noun “woman” only means “biological woman” — Michael

That is exactly my argument and you have not convinced me why it should be different.

We’re not discussing what is allowed. We’re discussing what ought be allowed. — Michael

That is exactly what I’m doing.

They can dictate who is allowed to do what, but that’s not what’s being discussed — Michael

That is exactly what is being discussed because that is the only thing that matters. As long as men don’t access women’s spaces you can call them whatever you like.

It’s not a mantra. It’s an accurate description of the English language. The nouns “man” and “woman” are not each just used in a single way. — Michael

You believe whatever you like. I’m happy to exclude trans women from women’s spaces. Luckily the UK law and most sports bodies are catching up with me.

But as I mentioned before, the terms “man” and “woman” are not only used to refer to biological sex; they are also used to refer to gender identity. — Michael

You can repeat this mantra as much as you like.

Cisgender men, sure — Michael

So we disagree on virtually nothing. One small point. I think no man is a woman. Maybe trans women could do the decent thing and not invade women’s spaces.

I don’t think all biological men should be excluded from women’s bathrooms, changing rooms, or shelters. I — Michael

But most should?

effeminate men and masculine women — Michael

Exactly and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And on that we agree, as I’ve mentioned before. — Michael

So for sport they aren’t women but they are women for other purposes?
So women already have exclusive places. Bathrooms, changing rooms and shelters for victims of male violence. Do you think men should be excluded from these places?

Okay, but sex differences in psychology are still a real thing, and in a minority of cases someone can have the psychology typically associated with the opposite sex. — Michael

What is the mechanism for someone to gave the opposite psychology to their sex? I’m intrigued.

Why? — Michael

Because men should be excluded from women’s sport because they have a competitive advantage. A huge competitive advantage. Shall we start there?

The point I am making is that you clearly understand that in many cases someone’s sex determines the way that they are treated, and that this treatment has nothing really to do with their sex at all - hence when you treat your female friends “like one of the blokes” you are not treating them as “having a penis”.

Obviously the wider society and culture is not identical to your friendship group, but the same principle is at play. — Michael

The point I'm making is that in 2025 people can be whatever they like. No sexist tropes are needed to define a person. So in sports and women's exclusive spaces biology trumps feelings. Everything else, people can be what they want. Like ladies being treated for who they are not what they are.

You’ve kind of answered your own question. — Michael

I don't think society and culture treats people like I treat my mates. There would be a lot of upset people.

It’s a biological woman who is psychologically male, and wishes to be treated how society and culture usually treats those who are psychologically male. — Michael

We can go around and around in circles. We all have a few wishes we would like to be granted but why do people need to grant these wishes? Also, I treat people how I see fit. I have some female friends who are treated like one of the blokes. I also, have male friends who are treated with a little more decorum.
How does society and culture treat a male?

You could start with sex differences in psychology. — Michael

Wikipedia? You can do better than that, surely?

Biological men and biological women tend to have a different kind of psychology. The way they think and feel and behave is different — Michael

I am aware that there are differences on average between the sexes but it is not clear cut at all. Men on average are more aggressive but not significantly and there are plenty of non aggressive men.
What kind of differences constitute a male v female?

Sometimes someone who is biologically female develops the kind of psychology typically associated with biological men, and so they identify as men in that psychological sense, and wish to be treated as a man. — Michael

Surely that is a woman who wished to be treated as a man. Not a man. I treat everyone as I see fit and how my subconscious dictates. If I see a transman then I will interact as I see fit. What does treated like a man entail? It can be different for everyone. I tailor my conversation etc to who I'm speaking to.

That their gender identity is male. Gender identity is psychological/social/cultural, not biological. — Michael

But what does that mean?

When they say “I am a man” they are not saying anything about their biology — Michael

What are they saying?

At what point is a person white or black? — RogueAI

He derailed his own thread by misinterpreting my point which was only to say that Trans women are not women. (He disagrees with me on that one) I only mentioned black people and homosexuals because, I thought , (wrongly) that someone else was equating the treatment of blacks, homosexuals and trans people as the same. My point is that there is a fundamental difference with trans people.
Your question is a great one. I am a white European and I have friends from Nigeria who are black. Where the line stops from being black to white is dependent upon definition and (I assume) how society views the person. Luckily, where I live it doesn’t matter because it’s a nice part of UK where everyone gets on together.

I answered him.

terms of gender, a trans woman exactly is a woman, — unenlightened

Ok.

I have no issue with anyone being and thinking whatever they want. How people feel about themselves and their status and how they feel about their biology and their sexual bearing is personal to all.
People need to work out where they fit in society and live their lives.
The issue is when their concept of themselves conflicts with how the world is currently ordered. Then decisions regarding certain aspects of society need to be made.

Aren't you glad that we live in a world where savage beauty can exist? — GregW

Absolutely. We need obstacles for fulfilment.

and beauty absolute have no part of ugliness — GregW

Don’t want to against Plato but I’m not convinced there is a beautifully absolute. It is all relative to the beholder.

I actually don't understand how biological absolutism has anything to do with the struggles of blacks and gays. How is it even vaguely related? — frank

I have no idea. Ask the posters

Please, no more misrepresentations of what I wrote. — T Clark

It’s a discussion and sometimes people misinterpret what someone has wrote. My post has been misinterpreted and misrepresented but I care not. I’m not here to try and persuade someone that they got the wrong end of the stick.

A question - is it still snide if it’s true? — T Clark

Of course not.

You’re missing the point of my post to Amadeus D. Whether or not he, or you, think a trans woman is a woman, it doesn’t change the fact his argument has been used to deny basic rights to black and gay people. — T Clark

I see your point and mis interpreted what your thrust was. Slavery was fine in Ancient Greece and it was fine until it wasn’t. I agree.

You prefer pontification; but only your own. I thought you were going to leave back there? — unenlightened

I’ll decide thanks.

Good idea, your flames are no substitute for an argument. — unenlightened

I prefer discussion but it appears to be beyond you. Which is fine.

Your racial absolutism wasn't very nice. And I didn't even mention black albinos, or non-negro blacks of Papua and Australia, or ...

And discrimination is discrimination, ha ha. — unenlightened

I’m not sure you are the full shilling.

I’ll leave it there.