And these societal differences have nothing to do with biology. Gender is distinct from sex. — Michael

The person's biology has a huge influence on the development someone. Society treats the sexes different and certain aspects of society are governed by a person's sex. There are reasons why it is a societal taboo for men to hit women.
Men growing up will not have the same experiences women. these forge the person you become. The influences are changing on a daily basis but until there has been some massive social engineering the status quo will (and should) remain.

But speaking as a man, I don't care what other men think. Trans men ought be allowed to use the men's bathroom. — Michael

I doubt many men would care.

These societal differences are distinct from any biological differences, so clearly gender is distinct from sex. And people can identify as belonging to the gender that is not typical for their biological sex. — Michael

No it isn't. The gender is reflection of the societal differences between the sexes. The word was hijacked by the muddle headed.

When including transwomen who have had gender-affirming surgery, 45% of women say that transwomen ought be allowed to use the women's bathroom compared to 34% who say they shouldn't (with 21% saying they don't know). 45 is greater than 34. — Michael

read the link

Disagree with me on what? — Michael

Allowing men into women's bathrooms.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

Many woman won't have a problem with it. like most things in society it isn't binary.

Many women won't have an issue walking through a park late at night.

Looks like the majority of women disagree with you. Do you dismiss that?

So you deny the reality that gender is distinct from sex? — Michael

I don't believe you (and similar advocates) use the concept of gender correctly. Gender is the societal differences between the sexes. If everyone else in the world thought it was good thing and agreed I would still see a man in dress. once all of the issues women face are ironed out and females don't feel threatened or vulnerable then maybe men would have access to exclusive places.

An example would be a night club that attracts the trans/queer community. If women in those places are comfortable then there would be no issue. Until then men need excluding. These are private places and probably exclude most of the "bloke" element anyway.
Sport is a different matter but there would be nothing wrong in setting up other organised leagues where women accept the risks and disadvantages of playing with men.

I am questioning the claim that certain bathrooms ought be exclusive to biological women. — Michael

Dismissing their concerns and shared experience.

I'm not dismissing it. — Michael

You want males to enter their exclusive places. Is that not dismissing it?

Again with the equivocation. Nobody is claiming that a biological man can become a biological woman or that a biological woman can become a biological man. What is claimed is that biological men can have a female gender identity and that biological women can have a male gender identity. — Michael

I think that is a meaningless concept and dismisses what it is to be female.

I'm not dismissing it. But you certainly are dismissing transgender experience. — Michael

You are 100% dismissing women and their experience.

You have dismissed the concerns of females in spaces where they are may feel awkward and vulnerable. The toilet is one of those places.

I reject the notion that man can become a woman. I agree with you there.

I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina. — Michael

Separate bathrooms is not just about sex organs and the place of females in society is not based just on sex organs.

I find the whole dismissive attitude to female experience in society quite sad. Luckily females in modern western liberal countries have it fairly good but there are still threats to females and unique challenges for females that means some areas of society have to be barred from males.

As for faith, I choose to believe in the God of perfection. The God who is not only perfectly good but also perfectly powerful, which means that He cannot use His power for evil. — GregW

He seems nice

The frame of reference for true beauty and true goodness is perfection — GregW

What for you is perfection?

I agree; it seemed natural and organic. But if you think about it, there is not much natural or organic about it. Such things do not occur in nature, and are not universal in human societies either. — unenlightened

We are social animals and take millions of unconscious cues every day. No one learns the etiquette of buying rounds at a bar but everyone in UK knows it.

Let me tell you why I believe that beauty is not relative to the beholder. I believe that it is our own measure of beauty that is relative to the beholder. Beauty, like truth, justice, piety, and the other virtues are a part of good; andtruth absolute, true beauty, true virtue, and true love are a part of goodness absolute; and goodness absolute is a part of God. — GregW

Expand on that, please. What is the frame of reference for true beauty etc?

Is it your faith in God? If so, I'll stick with my original statement.

Hermaphrodism and gender dysphoria are rare conditions. These are obviously not the target of the discussion. — Tzeentch

Often used to justify everything else.

, but as far as I'm concerned there's only one sane answer to it isn't particularly hard to see. — Tzeentch

That sane answer eludes quite a few.

This is probably the elephant in the room that is rarely talked about, because it's obviously an unfortunate thing to have to tell someone that they are unable to pass for the opposite sex, but it's the reality for many. — Tzeentch

It isn’t unfortunate. It is fact.

Let them use the women’s changing room. They shouldn’t be required to use the men’s changing room. — Michael

Why should women have to give up their hard fought for rights to men?

And I’m sure trans women who have surgically transitioned feel the same. — Michael

That is a consequence of a choice they made. I'm not sure what the authorities could do to accommodate them.

This is a genuine social dilemma I have faced with my daughter — unenlightened

It just came naturally. Just like being naked in front of your child stopped after a time. I think my child chose the time. It seemed organic

Incidentally, speaking of changing rooms - what does one do if a man wants to take his young daughter, or a woman her young son, to the swimming bath? — unenlightened

In my local pool they have recently installed more cubicles for changing. The showers are still open. I took my daughter in with me until she was old enough to change on her own. Still remember many times when I'd have to send in a female attendant to tell to stop messing about and get a move on.

So why is that? — Michael

Because women cannot compete with men in sports and because many women feel threatened and uncomfortable when men are are around when they are undressing, changing sanitary products etc.

The pertinent question is: should bathrooms, sports teams, prisons, etc. be divided by biological sex, by gender identity, by something else, or by nothing at all? — Michael

Which we disagree on.

One can psychologically identify as belonging to the social and cultural group that is usually occupied by the opposite biological sex — Michael

I agree.

And words like “man” and “woman” can refer either to a person of a particular biological sex or to a person who belongs to a particular social and cultural group. Usually these are congruent, but sometimes they’re not. — Michael

I disagree.

So engage! Stop playing the cheap attorney, trying to catch me out with leading questions, and respond to what I am actually saying. You cannot even respond to my answers to your stupid leading questions except to find fault with my style. Pathetic! — unenlightened

I'm not trying to catch anyone out. I'm interested in the topic and why people think the way they do and why society is in such a muddle about it. It's fascinating.

Stupid leading question leading nowhere, deserves a little ridicule. — unenlightened

Leading nowhere with you. I agree.

The fact that you even use the phrase “act like a woman” shows at least a partial understanding of gender-as-distinct-from-sex. — Michael

Gender was a word to describe the social and cultural characteristics of the two sexes.

So a man (Adult Human male) is acting in the manner associated with the social and cultural characteristics of a woman (Adult Human Female).

Of course! Whatever is considered acceptable is considered acceptable until it is considered unacceptable. Slavery was accepted and normalised. When I was at school, corporal punishment was accepted and normal; now it is not. So bite me! — unenlightened

So bite me!:smile:

Proper debate on here.

What is tolerated depends on the culture of the time in relation to the social construct in each case. — unenlightened

Hence, slavery was perfectly acceptable until William Wilberforce wasn’t happy. (I know it wasn’t just him)

So has anyone disambiguated the concept of gender?
My concept was never ambiguous. Sex of a person is immutable.
Gender was a word to describe the social and cultural characteristics of the two sexes.
It became ambiguous when people thought there was a magical way to cross this boundary of immutable sex and become a different gender. Now in 2025 when anyone can take on any role they wish (in western liberal democracies at least) then the concept of gender is becoming less and less important. The only issue is when the magical gender morphing men come up against current norms for sex based exclusive places. No one has an issue with women in men’s spaces. There is an issue of mutilation of women’s bodies and flooding them with synthetic hormones but that is for the butchers of the medical profession.
It all seems fairly simple and the ambiguity started with the assumption that men could become women and vice versa.
Muddled, deluded and (sometimes) politically motivated people took a perfectly unambiguous word and made a mess which thankfully is slowly unraveling.
The only reason that it is an issue is because females still have a way to go before the social imbalance of power and safety is levelled. That will not happen in anyone’s lifetime posting on here. Until then they need to have exclusive places.
People can be whoever they are, can present however they like but the red line for me is women having a right to compete in sport and to have spaces without men when they are vulnerable.

What about women's rights? Nobody even wants to mention the issue that brought on the recent UK ruling. Aren't women's rights enough of a concern to even talk about it? — frank

I think it's just old fashioned misogyny.

How is a cisgender woman to know if the person naked next to them is a trans man with an artificial penis and not a cisgender man with a natural penis?

How is a cisgender woman to know if the person naked next to them is a cisgender woman with a natural vagina and not a transgender woman with an artificial vagina — Michael

It's fairly obvious in most cases.

And you would include some trans women (i.e. those who have had bottom surgery) and exclude some trans men (i.e. those who have had bottom surgery) from women's changing rooms where this is nudity? — Michael

So you think a penis or lack of penis is important criteria in changing rooms? Is that correct?

I would prefer women to decide and if they were all happy to include everyone, so be it. But they aren’t and I’m aligned with women who want women’s spaces exclusively for women.

If there's full frontal public nudity then I don't think it matters whether your genitals are natural or artificial, and so a trans man with a penis should use the men's changing room and a trans woman with breasts and a vagina should use the women's changing room. — Michael

So you would exclude most trans women from changing rooms where there is nudity?

It's a start, I suppose.

Yes, much like a nightclub I used to frequent. — Michael

Changing rooms?

But, if we do have bathrooms that we name "men's bathrooms" and bathrooms that we name "women's bathrooms", and if only certain types of people are allowed to use the bathrooms named "men's bathrooms" and only certain types of people are allowed to use the bathrooms names "women's bathrooms", it's makes more sense for the division to be based on gender rather than sex. — Michael

So you would immediately take the male and female signs down and anyone can use them?

On the basis that we have separate men’s and women’s bathrooms. If cis and trans men are allowed to use the women’s bathrooms and cis and trans women are allowed to use the women’s bathrooms then we don’t actually have separate men’s and women’s bathrooms. — Michael

But why would you exclude them? What reasons would you give?

That was premised on the fact that we do have separate men's and women's bathrooms.

So, my position is:

1) bathrooms ought be unisex
2) but, if we have separate men's and women's bathrooms then they should be separated by gender, not sex — Michael

We do and you excluded cisgender men. On what basis?

Cisgender men, sure. — Michael

Is your quote

I'm not excluding anyone. I've said many times before that I think bathrooms should be unisex. You're the one who is saying that bathroom usage should be divided by biology. Why is that? If bathrooms are to be divided at all, why not instead by gender? — Michael

see above.

That just seems to be some minister's interpretation of the ruling. As far as I'm aware there's no law on bathroom usage at all. — Michael

I don't think there ever was.

Which are? — Michael

You tell me. You are excluding them.