I agree that Christian mysticism, in any organized form, is pretty much gone, — Metaphysician Undercover

And that is a shame. Christianity would be much richer had it not abandoned the pathways championed by Teresa of Ávila and others. I suspect she and her followers were able to employ certain kinds of lucid dreaming in their spiritual lives. When I first experienced the Art of Dreaming, my immediate thought was, This is how religion started.

The mystic tradition in the west seems to have always been a communal practise involving words. — Metaphysician Undercover

Wrong. Quietism? Teresa's walks through her mystical mansions? Vows of silence?

Philosophers should either practice a mystical art or refrain from talking about them. They know not of what they speak. (I might say the same about mathematics, but I won't :cool: )

I like thought experiments a lot. But your Universe A is too much to wrap my mind around. Sorry — jgill


:chin:

You're as fickle as the weather, Mr. Meteorologist. — TheMadFool

Too much of a stretch. But nice rejoinder! :cool:

Actually drawing a bright line between the living and the non living and the experiential and the non experiential is not such an easy task as you imply. It is precisely in attempting to draw such a line that one begins to consider, becoming over being, and process and relationship over being and properties. The task is also what leads some to consider panpsychism over mechanistic and deterministic approaches to nature and reality — prothero

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think of the "living" having the ability to reproduce. My pet rock can't seem to do the job unless I hit it with a hammer. And then it has a shattering experience.

But I see your point. :cool:

Asserting the individual constiuents of rocks "quantum events" have some form of non-conscious proto-experience is an entirely different matter. — prothero

I'm not sure I understand why we even use expressions like "consciousness" or "experience" when speaking of non-living entities. Do the planets have the "experiences" of revolving about the sun? Does a virtual particle - which may only be a mathematical device - have "consciousness" or "experience"? Do quarks have free will? Why is it important for some people to apply these and similar words removed from a context of living beings? :chin:

I think you think you're making a point that I think actually is not being made, or maybe is not the point you think is being made. Or I could be mistaken. — tim wood

No attempt to make a point beyond the notion of the individual buying a gun himself rather than being supplied one.

Precisely there are different degrees and forms of experience just as there are different measured physical properties depending on the structure of the system under observation.. Using the term “consciousness” causes an unnecessary resistance to the concept of panpsychism because the way we usually use consciousness is to describe our own self aware, self reflective, language oriented awareness and we do not attribute that degree or form of experience to all of nature. — prothero

OK. A rock has zero experience. Oh oh, there it goes, rolling down a hill! Guess it has >0 experience.

:gasp:

Thought experiments can't get simpler than the one I came up with in this thread. — TheMadFool

Well, it is simple. Too simple. Not enough information to begin an intelligent discussion, IMO. Underlying any approach is an agreement of just what math is. Is there mathematics without symbols, words, or figures? In Universe A, Motion=F(Impact), a qualitative mathematical statement. Impact produces motion. Sorry, it all seems a little flaky.

Political philosophy, perhaps. Nazism. Judicial philosophy? Areas of actual impact.

Can metaphysics be harmful? Georg Cantor suffered a mental breakdown trying to defend his philosophical/mathematical ideas. So, yes, set theory can be harmful to one's health and well-being! :gasp:

Albert Einstein used thought experiments (a lot). That should allay your concerns, hopefully. — TheMadFool

I like thought experiments a lot. But your Universe A is too much to wrap my mind around. Sorry.

Militia Act of 1792:

"That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia,... every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock."

"The right answer is not always the solution" — Marylil

I assume this pertains to a specific problem. (Otherwise, "I need to get to point A as quickly as possible. How long will it take if I run?" The right answer is 20 minutes, which is too long and thus no solution.)

3. Universe with mathematical laws. These laws, you will agree, are both "complete" and permits us to know "how" matter-energy interact. There's no room for chaos in such a universe because everthing that happens to matter-energy will evince a pattern. — TheMadFool

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287422786_The_myth_of_the_clockwork_universe_Newton_newtonianism_and_the_enlightenment

:nerd:

Have you ever wondered what would happen if instead of becoming a mathematician, you went out and decided to make pottery, how your life would change? — Justin Peterson

Well, if I had the artistic talents my daughter possesses I probably would have made more money! But, alas, I don't, so it's best I stuck with academics. Though there is not much money there, either. :cool:

By "new ideas" I don't mean just technological or scientific ones; philosophical ideas - the right ones - do have the power to change people's outlooks — TheMadFool

Certainly, in the sciences and math there are lots of new ideas. As new abstract areas of the latter open up new ideas run rampant. But these tend to be very technical and easily misunderstood and misinterpreted by the general public. Look at all the babble about quantum theory. Philosophical ideas about politics and society are more potent. For example, discussions about UBI resonate these days, although the concept is not new. But new environments require new approaches.

If there are multiple universes, then there exists other forms of me with different thoughts. — Justin Peterson

Multiple universe theory doesn't imply things or people in this universe are duplicated in others.

what if Radio waves didn't exist before Nikola Tesla discovered them? — Justin Peterson

Hertz?

Because I think that anything that is thought with enough certainty can be true — Justin Peterson

I sincerely believe the moon is made of green cheese.

......................................................

Sorry to be so picky, but I am a mathematician. I enjoy reading your posts, Justin. This is an enjoyable thread. :smile:

I doubt few would disagree with the existence of subconscious. Experiments show that decisions bubble up from those levels, making the concept of free will debatable.

that we aren't aware we're aware of — neonspectraltoast

??

That we aren't aware of, maybe? :chin:

My proposition: No proposition is possible. :cool:

So awareness is being judged by consciousness' seeming premonitory ability to react to a threat? — neonspectraltoast

Not judged, merely separated. But this is only one point of view. Most would have consciousness=awareness. It becomes a word game.

Let us assume that there is only one possible world. If this is the case, what are the consequences of any proposition being possible? — Justin Peterson

Unimaginable chaos. Might want to trim your hypothesis a tad. :roll:

. . . and Y would desperately seek an ordinary one. — TheMadFool

You underestimate Y. Being the creature you have described Y would simply move on to something that didn't bore them. X might also, but they probably wouldn't have the abilities for this to be easy. I don't think this is a good analogy with physicalism vs dualism. You could have skipped this preamble and gone directly to that issue.

Awareness for a human usually implies a sense of self, an "I". In the practice of Zen this "I" is seen to be a fabrication. But in the Art of Dreaming one becomes this "I" entirely, with apparent free will.

I doubt flowers are blessed with this experience. How would you describe the awareness of a rock?

Are flowers and rocks self-aware?

but no degrees between not being able to experience at all (i.e. the condition most people think rocks are in) and being able to experience something. — bert1

Consciousness is frequently conflated with awareness. I recall psychological experiments that illustrate someone being conscious of an impending threat, but unaware of it. One's body reacts an instant before one is actually aware of the threat. However, usually the two are perceived to be the same. One could stretch the definition of consciousness to the ability to use information to one's advantage, like a flower turning toward the sun. But is the flower aware?

I like what Biden has to say about climate change, but I think more emphasis needs be placed on preparing for climate change. Water rising in the streets in Miami, . . .. :worry:

Mathematical chaos theory is, to my reckoning, simply about unexpected complexity in fully deterministic systems. Nevertheless, there are patterns that can be discerned — TheMadFool

Well, if I could upload imagery of a dynamical system I devised I would challenge you to find a pattern.

Your comment reveals a not unexpected bias engendered by (over)exposure to the laws of this universe in which we live where all known phenomena are non-chaotic. — TheMadFool

As a former meteorologist I disagree. Your approach is very Newtonian, which is not bad, but rather insufficient.

Your Universe A is a fairy tale and thus cannot be compared to our universe. (My late Hungarian ex-father-in-law carried on a lengthy correspondence with Wigner. I'm surprised the Nobel Laureate did not formulate and advance your argument. :roll: )

Because phenomenal consciousness does not admit of degree. — bert1

"Here is how Block introduces the notion of phenomenal consciousness:
P-consciousness [phenomenal consciousness] is experience. P-conscious properties are experiential properties. P-conscious states are experiential, that is, a state is P-conscious if it has experiential properties. The totality of the experiential properties of a state are “what it is like” to have it. Moving from synonyms to examples, we have P-conscious states when we see, hear, smell, taste and have pains. (Block 1995: 230)" A. Byrne

There are many degrees of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting.

Trump will be remembered in history as the most disgusting, destructive thing that ever happened to our Republic. His supporters will be regarded as slightly below him on the ladder of loyalty to nation and and sanity.

And below them...will be the people who are doing what you are doing, Baden. That bottom group will be regarded as the true sludge. — Frank Apisa

From last time around: "Half his supporters are deplorables . . ."

That worked well.

Universe A:
1. Two objects
2. Law of motion: if one object is struck by another object the struck object will move. This law is non-mathematical — TheMadFool

I can see Tegmark's Mathematical Universe as an outlandish, but somewhat plausible argument, but I don't see a reasonable path to a conclusion here.

Every universe life exists must have order and where there's order there'll always be mathematics. — TheMadFool

Huh. Is that true? Does order always imply mathematics? A Pharaoh decrees orders that govern the treatment of slaves - does this orderliness imply mathematics?

Does chaos imply no mathematics? I think it possible to envision a chaotic universe that is entirely mathematical since mathematics underlies chaos theory in our own universe. I can easily produce a chaotic structure by simple iteration. Sensitive dependence on initial conditions (Butterfly Effect) does the trick.

Returning to the central issue: Does a rock have consciousness? If you say it does, then one can define consciousness as "A property possessed by a rock." If you say it doesn't, then the question becomes "why doesn't it?" If your answer is "A rock has no brain" , then you are a physicalist and must rethink your existence. :chin:

If one assumes there are degrees of consciousness, from zero to partial to full, then one may conclude a rock has zero degree and a bright, functioning human has over ninety degrees when fully awake. If one assumes partial consciousness does not exist, then when we awaken there is no continuity and its like a light being switched on instantly. Is that possible? More likely, consciousness underlies everything, always there, and we become aware of it.

But this is naive metaphysical babble on my part, and I apologize.

This is tangential, but to feel the breathtaking power of freedom of the will one might consider engaging in Castaneda's The Art of Dreaming. Over forty years ago I learned to practice this directed form of lucid dreaming and it was an epiphany. The first time was a profound experience, the most remarkable aspect being that one becomes pure will or intent. No drugs, and very simple instructions that worked for me on my first try. Look it up if you are interested. Philosophical discussions seem banal and flimsy compared to direct experience. :cool:

I believe we have agency, but some decisions seem to be made at a level below the conscious. So I'm not willing to accept your premise. Nevertheless, good luck.

↪jgill
Sounds like basically the same reason [you] wrote your history. To make some minor contribution to the field. — Pfhorrest

Thanks for the explanation. I do the same thing with mathematics, writing short notes on whatever topic interests me and posting on researchgate. Once upon a time I wrote and published, but I lost interest in the formalities and the topics I was writing about when I retired twenty years ago. It's a lot more fun now! :cool:

Why write books like this to begin with? If your goal is to formulate and express your ideas about philosophy for your own sake then don't worry about an external audience. But, if you anticipate a readership that embraces and appreciates your efforts, what sort of validation of this expectation do you have?

I created a website some years ago that contained original, albeit amateur, historical research on topics that had not been subject to investigations. Then, some time later, I wrote several print-on-demand books based on my site. I did this primarily to insure some records of my efforts survive after I pass away and the site vanishes. I check periodically and find that several of these books are bought each year, but, more importantly, copies reside in a library devoted to these pursuits. I make no money, and consider these books my contributions to these specific areas of activity. I suspect they are rarely checked out and read, but that's OK. The mere fact they exist provides satisfaction.

I have several old friends who are writing what I consider end-of-life projects. I doubt their books will be finished and published, but it gives them a purpose, a reason to persist and grow, even in old age. I suggest to them they have other projects waiting in the wings should they actually finish these books.

What motivates you to write this book? I'm sure you have explained this primary aspect of your project, but I would like to know.

neural default mode network — praxis

Thanks for this reference. It's illuminating. :smile:

OK. That makes more sense. a rock is not self-aware, only its fundamental particles are.

Oh oh. What about the virtual particles within the rock? How can they be aware if they are merely ripples in a field? Or worse, only mathematical entities without any sort of corporal existence?

Philosophy is truly a difficult discipline. :worry:

Does panpsychism imply a piece of rock is self-aware? :chin:

↪jgill
There’s a thread on UBI somewhere else. To my knowledge no one has mentioned UBI here. — I like sushi

The UBI concept probably lies in a socialist agenda, which itself lies between capitalism and communism.

How does a UBI relate to communism? I seem to recall most people had to work for a living in the USSR. :chin:

↪jgill
I have; and I've already made my contribution. — Banno

Yes, I know. You sent a ripple in the aether requiring serious meditation to unravel. Thanks a lot. :razz: