Modern day blood libel. Mass starvation? Seriously? :lol: Israel has let in more aid than those idiots at the UN know what to do with. Doesn't it bother you that there there's never a peep of protest when violence occurs in Africa? Christians getting hacked to death by Islamists in Nigeria, not a peep. Not a peep for Assad or Hussein, but the Jewish nation responds to Islamist aggression in a very civil manner and all hell breaks loose. No Jews, no news.

I'd wager less than 10k civilians killed.

"From the river to the sea" is itself a call for ethnic cleansing. A call for a return to dhimmi status. Parents of Columbia students may be questioning their decisions after learning that they've been spending $90k/year to have their children turned into little intifada warriors and while getting lectured & taught by open supporters of terrorist groups.

Exactly how I feel about the American left turning out en masse on college campuses to support genocidal murderers. Protestors chanting "we are all hamas."

The quote I posted was existentialism. Man creates his own values. I thought a comparison of belief systems might be fruitful to the discussion. I sought to understand my interlocutor's belief system. The discussion at this point was about Judaism.

If a minority population of white supremacists under a white supremacist government killed 1200 blacks in an alternative timeline where blacks are the dominant power group, would you appreciate people calling for a ceasefire or to not respond at all? How would you respond to the world telling you that you need to be nicer to them and stop oppressing them. You need to let them import whatever weapons (i.e. grant them statehood) despite their government's stated intention to either murder or subjugate you. Anything else would be apartheid.

You don't view intention as morally relevant. :roll: :lol:

False dichotomy. — Benkei

Is my quote representative of your beliefs or not? I'd figure it is. You're an atheistic materialist. No? The universe has no real meaning/value save what we choose to impose?

But nice try trying to make this personal and misrepresenting what I said so you can pretend I'm just another bigoted antisemite. — Benkei

But I really get the sense that you are. You talk about xenophobic rabbis. I can tell you don't like that the Jews stick to their own. You probably think they believe themselves superior. You may not be a Christian, but you're familiar with the New Testament - a massive source of anti-semitism. You routinely criticize Jewish barbarism, yet never really Muslim barbarism. And now you want me to condemn Bibi for waging war on Hamas after murdering 1200 Israelis? The idea that Judaism is the dumbest religion is also anti-semitic and ridiculous. But above all, it would be your attempt to deny and deconstruct Jewish identity that is anti-semitic. Judaism is passed on through the mother and Judaism is indigenous to Israel. It is the historic homeland of the Jews with Jerusalem as the cultic center.

You're an atheist who doesn't believe in anything. Reminds me of a quote.

"Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves; go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us."

Yet you continue to moralize, hate, and judge -- especially the Jews. Why do you even care how a group defines itself? You need a therapist who you can talk with about the Jews who are apparently the worst of all religions, the source of all religious evil.

Come to think of it, isn't a 28 year old Dutch woman due to be euthanized next month for depression? Why is death a bad thing, after all. Why prefer it over life? Why does life even have value? :chin: Death does mean no more pain, after all. Why drudge yourself to work in the morning when you could just euthanize yourself? The muslims will not have a hard time with this country - although you have a potential savoir in Geert.

Is the man allowed to sign the document to order the deportation process given the reasonable assumption that it would happen regardless of his signature?

What are your thoughts on self-sacrifice in this instance? The refusal to sign could be reasonably inferred to make no essential, utilitarian difference.

Regardless of whether we call Palestinians "indigenous" or not -- and I've heard all types of theories e.g. that many of them descend from workers imported by the Ottoman empire in the 19th century, that they're genetically closer to Jordan or Egypt.... Whatever it is, I think most Israelis would be fine giving them a state as long as they accepted the existence of Israel which they have not and have instead just engaged in constant violence since Israel's inception. It's a security matter above all else. Israel doesn't want Hamas or the PLO importing nukes or biological weapons.

Did you get that line from the Talmud? — Lionino

:roll:

This depends on the particular persons engaged that "futile" situation. — 180 Proof

I don't see how the particular individual matters much. Historically, he would be a community leader. Do you understand the scenario?

Tbh I mentally checked out when I read Judaism is "fucking dumb." I get it, you think all the religions of the world are "fucking dumb" except, apparently, whatever you follow (which you have not made entirely clear). That belief would be truth and it is that which must be taught to everyone else including those idiots in the Middle East. I'm just not dealing with it today. I'll respond to your bigotry before anything else. So no, you don't get a response from me until I deal with the attitudes/assumptions behind your response. Saying Judaism is a "fucking dumb" religion is a ridiculous statement. Maybe it's that monotheism is stupid? Or all theisms in general are stupid? Then just say that. :roll:

But I suspect that there's something about Judaism in particular that you do not like which is what makes you a bigot. :wink:

All true. But what of self-sacrifice in an instance where, according to the social reality, it would seem completely futile?

Consider the Judenrat in the Lodz ghetto. This example is drawn from Arendt's work in Eichmann in Jerusalem. You can sign the document to summon the police to round up some of the populace to send them off them on trains to certain death, or you could choose not to sign. But if you don't sign, you'll be hanged the next day and someone else will fill your position who will sign and the group will be rounded up regardless. Your sacrifice will be completely meaningless and make no ultimate difference to the matter. Do we still self-sacrifice here?

Perhaps, but then I don't think we have Christianity given Paul's role in spreading it. I wasn't raised Christian so I don't have that baggage. I understand though that many Christians focus quite strongly on Paul's views and place them essentially on par with Jesus's word.

Iran might hope for this, but perhaps the lure for Bibi is too great now. IDF is already talking of counter strikes. — ssu

After the attack I figure Israel must respond in some way to save face even if its orchestrated. Yet Israel did not respond militarily within a day or two of the attack so clearly they're taking their time with it. Bibi already has a war with Hamas and I don't see potentially sparking WWIII as something that he'd hope to get involved with, yet he must respond in some way. How - I don't know.

And this just undermines also the idea that all Arab countries are just waiting to get the chance to kill all the Jews and/or push them into the sea. — ssu

Yeah, this idea is somewhat of a relic of wars of past decades as well as the fact that Israel has no true friends in the region. It is not the case for all the Arabs, but some certain wish for Israel's demise. Israel and Jordan or the Saudis may share common enemies, but I would hardly call them "friends" like the US-UK are or the US and Canada. Even biblically, Israel is described as a nation which often goes at it alone. And Israel is not wrong in being cautious of Islam. The last Jewish state lasted 103 years (2nd and 1st century BC), this current one is at 76 and has had 8 wars so I'd expect a few more over the next few decades.

Whatever it is that you or your ancestors believed in, I want you to know that it's fucking dumb and it's clearly devolved from what it was. Let me explain it to you. Let me tell you what it means to be Dutch. Now go open your borders and welcome in more migrants.

I hate the 72 virgins crowd as much as anyone, but sometimes one must be willing to lay down one's life especially against totalitarian systems which thrive/perpetuate off the idea that a single person's death is meaningless and futile and makes zero ultimate difference. See Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.

Paul says a lot of things I don't much like. I like the idea that one's good deeds should outnumber one's bad deeds. That is something we flawed creatures can manage. — BC

I also do not agree with everything that Paul says nor do I believe his word should be taken as absolute truth. That's Jewish tradition. Paul has always seemed to me a very flawed person trying to make the best of his situation.

Nor would it fly in Jewish circles. I'll hear this song and think to myself "no way." Paul is right when he says all have sinned. But Judaism doesn't say we're all rotten to the core with sin. As long as your good deeds outnumber your sins you're considered righteous. :ok:

So just do more good than bad. But Paul falls short in many ways and he knows he's gonna need a lot of grace and a lot of faith.

And this just shows how difficult it is to get a negotiated peace in the Middle East. — ssu

However, as recent events have demonstrated, the entire Arab world is not Israel's enemy. Jordan and the Saudis evidently are not fans of the Iranian regime and the Arab world has its own divides.

Why not would they? They still need to have relations with European and Asian states. They couldn't do it unnoticed, that's for sure. — ssu

Did the Gazans think this way on 10/7? Or during the second intifada? Their plan is to defeat Israel and then it's onto Europe. Look up the Banu Qurayza. You'll hear "Khybar, Khybar ya Yahud" chanted.

You can convert to it — Benkei

And try converting out of it. A Jew who believes Jesus is divine is a heretical Jew. You don't lose your Judaism by accepting Jesus you just invoke the wrath of the community. As you should by accepting a man who walked the Earth as God. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

You can call Judaism dumb, I don't care. Go back to your own worldview where humanity (European humanity, that is) apparently only becomes intelligent during the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. Or is it later with the rise of atheism? I guess who needs religious thought when you've got Dawkins and Harris. The Middle East is stupid because they are religious but you are smart because you know there is no God. :up:

If Judaism is a dumb religion can you show me a smart one? If you think all religion is "fucking dumb" just say that :vomit:

You know so little about Judaism, yet judge so much. And surely if Judaism is "fucking dumb" then Islam must be really fucking dumb. So are there smart religions or is only secular atheism smart?

You don't believe that one's conscience could lead one to, for instance, retrieve an escaped slave or euthanize something or someone hastily (or not euthanize where it should be done)?

I honestly do believe people's consciences can lead them very astray (or to very different places morally). Today in the US we had many people openly supporting Hezbollah and Hamas out on the streets willing to risk arrest. Morality is different across time and place and these societies can foster very different "moral intuitions" or "consciences" among its inhabitants. Also people perceive reality in vastly different ways through factors such as IQ, education, and experience. So yes, I believe one's conscience can tell one to do vile things.

I make no claims about the existence of an afterlife. I simply state a belief in one tends to lead to heroism and martyrdom, while a conviction in the lack of one wouldn't really encourage such things.

Several of the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials claimed to be motivated by their conscience. They saw what they were doing as best for the fate of their country as well as humanity as a whole. IIRC Hannah Arendt in Eichmann in Jerusalem describes how Nazis were taught to e.g. resist the "temptation" to be merciful and instead dutifully perform their national mission. Nurture can lead one's conscience down very strange paths.

peacefully to what they believe is their ancestral home due to religious claims — Benkei

Not due to religious claims. It's due to history. The Arab muslims built their buildings on the ruins of Jewish civilization. Jews are the older strata.

Judaism - as a religion, as an ethnic identity, as a national identity (and yes it is all 3) -- forms in the land of Israel. Archaeology supports it. Anthropology supports it. Linguistic evidence supports it. I don't need to invoke God in this discussion.

Jews were expelled from their homeland under the Romans yet Jewish tradition has never abandoned its ties to it. Take the Shema -- a prayer ushered morning and night by observant Jews in Hebrew (a language formed in Israel) derived from the words of Deuteronomy (a text formed in Judea under King Josiah in the 7th century BC.) It's maintained all this time.

Not trying to be offensive, but where is the Palestinian history? Or they just assumed to be the original inhabitants? It's in the name, after all, guess it has to be true. /s

And since religion is made up bullshit — Benkei

Judaism predates modern notions of religion. Judaism is an evolving civilization. Its basis is in practice, not creed.

It's funny you say this while in the same post citing Ruth and Boaz as well as Joseph (!). You call it bullshit yet rely on Scripture to make your argument...

mixed race — Benkei

Which is fine. There are Jews from all over. Judaism is not a race. Genetic testing does bear out certain common markers among Jews. You can convert to Judaism. But could you become a Palestinian, Benkei?

Wonderful village people on the other side too. — ssu

If the shoe were on the other foot, and Arab muslim armies were prevailing over Israel, I would expect Israel to fight to the last man. Israel would qualify as an "enemy population" from the arab perspective. But I wouldn't expect the arabs to send in aid trucks or coddle the Israelis there. It would truly be genocide.

Sweden is experiencing considerable social upheaval at ~1.5 million migrants entering over the past decades and we've seen the far right take power. Such a thing would have been unheard of in such a civilized country years ago. But here we have it. Their education system has taken a dive and gang violence has shot up. Sweden is maybe 8% muslim? Israel is 20% and has been dealing with the issue for longer. The point being, mass immigration and such demographic differences will cause such attitudes to rise. Ireland is also seeing nativist marches.

It's not that those european countries are inherently superior -- it's that they don't deal with the same types of issues as Israel has, but right now Sweden is getting a taste of it. Try letting in a sizable majority of a population which doesn't accept your history or your claim to your own land and see how it goes. 59% of Israeli Arabs don't believe that a Jewish temple ever stood on the temple mount! The ruins are still standing!!

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-attitudes-of-israeli-arabs-005-present

And, in the main, belief in "the hereafter" tends to devalue here & now — 180 Proof

Which can also lead to great heroism, such as with Maximilian Kolbe. If we knew, for certain, that this life is all there is why not just be epicureans? Why even plant trees that will take decades to grow?

Now I don't have personally anything against you, but I do find talking about an "enemy people" disturbing, even if you likely make a separation with "enemy soldiers" and "enemy people". — ssu

I'm not offended, and we can call them what you like, but the unfortunate fact is the majority of Palestinians -- according to polls -- are sympathetic to the events of 10/7. On 10/7, many palestinians civilians stormed in and murdered and raped their neighbors. We can call them "wonderful village people" for all I care, but treatment-wise, if I were a soldier or commanding them, I would advise extreme caution. I will concede that we don't need to use the term "enemy" especially if it leads to bad treatment.

Thanks! So I guess with recent events you're on team Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas now? Anything to beat Israel. Way to go! :rofl:

I can guarantee I know history in this region better than you. Jews are indigenous, thus zionism - jewish self-determination -- is decolonization from later colonizers.

Jews are indigenous to the region. You would know this if you knew the history of the region before 1948. But none of this apparently matters because you only think in terms of abstract notions like states, not actual, flesh and blood people.

And that's what it comes down to. You don't really appreciate or understand the region or the people. Religion is stupid for you, after all. And you're an intelligent, secular European who is far above any of this.

At least Begin was honest about it: there's no Israeli village that hasn't been build on an Arab ruin.

Israeli or Jewish? Wording is key here. Israel, as a modern state, is new. Israel as an entity is not. And I would remind you that al-Aqsa mosque was built on Jewish ruins. As were those later Arab buildings. The point is not that property shifts hands but rather how is shifts hands.



Read. Your. History.

Israel will help settle disputes involving families who were displaced in previous wars. Many Jewish families lost their homes in 1948 and Arabs took over so reclaiming that those homes would actually be decolonization. Zionism is decolonization. These cases go to court and the Arab families are compensated but they are treated individually.

Yes I will mourn when a 14 year old Jewish Israeli shepherd boy is abducted and stoned to death by knuckle draggers. And again one cannot colonise the land to which one is indigenous to. I understand that for you, as an outsider, everything just starts 75 years ago but not everyone shares your European, state-centered perspective of history.

You're guilty of genocide of the English language.

When everything is genocide to you, just response to an attack feels egregious.

I suppose the US committed genocide in Iraq. Or in Afghanistan. Innocents did die. Everything is genocide.

Yes, I do deeply hate and blame the organization that murders LGBTQ and tortures its own dissidents and indoctrinates its population with virulent anti-semitism and strives openly and boldly to destroy the Jewish people.

a) Hamas uses child fighters. Is the IDF allowed to kill a 16 year old firing a gun at it?
b) Hamas's figures are highly questionable.

No, see I’m the one against killing innocent civilians. — Mikie

Yet when this happens, as it does repeatedly to victims of islamic terror, you put yourself in a bind: Innocents will die when a country responds militarily.

To insist on zero civilian deaths = no military response permitted to murderous attacks.Especially when the attackers place themselves among the populace as they deliberately do.

Alter is indeed brilliant. One of the top in the field.

I have not read Spinoza but I'm sure I could gain something from it. I'm not partial to pantheism but I know Spinoza was brilliant. Heschel I would read but have not yet. Am currently reading Nahum Sarna's work on Genesis and Exodus. Recently read Shaye Cohen's "From Maccabees to the Mishnah" which is a good overview of later second temple Judaism, roughly around the time of Jesus.

The Gaza Health ministry only has data -- names, ages, etc. on 22k of the 33k claimed. Israel claims to have killed 13k hamas.

Palestinians are not the enemy, but I do see them as an enemy population in the same way that a highly pro-nazi town in 1945 would have been. The citizens themselves aren't inherently evil and deserving of death, but I would be very cautious of them. This is just based on statistics -- 70% of palestinians sympathize with the 10/7 attacks. Israel still allows the transport of aid and medical treatment to palestinians. Israel can provide aid but the reality leaves one skeptical of "winning hearts and minds." Yet Israel is and should treat them with basic decency. Soldiers who blasted Jewish prayers over a loudspeaker of a defeated city were reprimanded.