Can we please steer away with a very wide birth from the "psyche" of a group of people? Smells too close to racism to me. Cultural and material conditions have caused both sides to have a majority of people that can drink the other sides blood. That is a consequence of a decades long (rather one sided) conflict but little to do with "psyche". After WWII my grandfather-in-law hated Germans for the rest of his life - that was only 5 years of conflict. — Benkei

Not racism, religious difference. Schopenhauer described the Quran as containing a "remarkable contempt for death" as opposed to Judaism, the oldest of the Abrahamics, which has more time to develop/moderate and contains much less eschatology than Islam. In that sense, we can speak of different "psyches" -- not due to race, but by religious/cultural upbringing. According to the Pew Research Center, 85% of Muslims in the Palestinian Territories say religion is very important in their lives.

And note, IDF cannot surely beat the movement called Hamas, but present military units of Hamas the can take out or degrade to a point that they can say to the Israeli public that Hamas isn't a threat. And that's it. That's the objective. Same is for Hezbollah they have a huge stockpile of rockets, so the issue is to destroy the existing capability. — ssu

What if I were to say, "the US and Britain surely cannot beat the movement called Nazism, but only their present military units"... I suppose I would be technically right also but not making much of a point. Nazis do still exist.

Hopefully Israel won't need to "mow the grass" in another decade or two if real, systemic changes can be made and if the Rafah campaign is successful. Several military commentators, including ones from West Point, have commented that Israel is conducting this war quite humanely with less than a 2:1 civilian to terrorist ratio.

Isreal and Bibi react. Then think about tomorrow. 'The distant future' is not on their minds. — ssu

I can't think of another country that doesn't respond similarly when 1200 of its own are slaughtered and ~300 taken hostage. What are we negotiating about??? What's the response? Embargo Hamas? Write them a strongly worded letter from the UN demonstrating international condemnation and a promise to restart the peace process? There is no peace process with Hamas in charge. Or the PA, for that matter. Israel is to be made Muslim according to them.

Another point I thought of regarding anti-semitism: Could you think of another country whose hostage posters would be torn down if its citizens were kidnapped by another group? I struggle to think of one. Israel is regarded as the nexus of worldly evil for so much of the world, especially on college campuses and among the youth. It's disturbing.

Moreover, why are so many of the pro-Palestinian protests violent and destructive while in the pro-Israel ones I've never heard of any vandalism and everyone's sitting around singing "HaTikvah." The difference in "culture" between the two groups is stunning. The Palestinian crowd disturbs cancer wards with their bullhorns. It's self-righteous psychopathy. Extremely dangerous.

Prussia was abolished in 1947, deemed a "bearer of militarism and reaction" by the Allies. Could this be genocide? Genocide of the focal point of German militarism?

The displacement and destruction of an entire regional culture or people is genocide. — Benkei

Do you think a culture can ever be so wicked that it deserves to be destroyed?

So just what you earlier said means that if the IRA had killed 1200, then you would have been totally OK with air strikes! — ssu

You can compare Israel-Palestine to the IRA conflict and I can compare it to Nazism. After all, 1200 is a number reminiscent of early Nazi massacres c. 1941. The reason Israel isn't in more danger is because Israel and Egypt control Gaza's borders and monitor them for weapons.

I'm not hugely familiar with the IRA conflict. If 1200 were killed in the attempt on Thatcher's life in the 1980s with 3/4 being civilians and many rapes occurring and hundreds of Protestants taken hostage in brutal conditions, would the Irish be out on the streets cheering in mass? Beats me. Not my neck of the woods. Would we have seen the Irish beating these hostages as they were paraded down the streets of Northern Ireland because they were English-Protestant? Time to bring back Cromwell I'd be thinking if I were English.

Israel does not bomb neighborhoods because the residents are sympathetic to Hamas; it bombs them because they contain military infrastructure. If Israel bombed a populace because it supported Hamas, virtually all of Gaza would be leveled.

Do you understand that your response can be the intent of the perpetrator? — ssu

Yes. Hamas intended to open the gates of hell on 10/7. I'm sure Japan knew that war would begin on Dec 7 1941. But one ever really argued that bombing Nazi Germany or Japan would just lead to more Nazis or Imperial Japanese. Perhaps the reprisals against those two nations initially did strengthen their resolve?

Do note what Maggie did after the actual bombing: she continued the conference and declared: ""this attack has failed. All attempts to destroy democracy by terrorism will fail." — ssu

The world would have been in a very different place if the IRA had managed to kill ~1200 British in one day, including the Prime Minister... but we enter into thought experiments here.

Just shows how absolutely crazy these "anti-racism" racists are. But naturally there's no logic to these stupidities, it is only a matter of convenience what the present hated or feared group is by the haters, be they the Jews, the Irish, the Muslims, the Japanese, the Chinese, whoever and whatever. — ssu

Some of these groups are nationalities, others are religions -- can one not question an ideology? Or should we just immediately accept it if it's a religion? I'm wary of any religion which seeks to convert the world to its creed.

And that makes my point that religious zealots have hijacked the situation on both sides. — ssu

I'm no expert on Israeli politics, but Netanyahu, while certainly right wing, does not strike me as a religious extremist. I would question his level of observance/religious outlook and I do not group him in with e.g Kach although I understand the relationship between the two groups is nuanced and do share some common goals.

That rise only shows the failure of "Mr. Security", prime minister Netanyahu. Because to assume that people like Ben Gvir will fix the problem is simply delusional. — ssu

What I was saying was if it is true that Palestinians working at these kibbutzim aided Hamas in the 10/7 attacks then that lends credence to Ben Gvir's (and his party, which is the ideological successor of Kach -- Meir Kahane's party; the true far right of Israeli politics) notion of the Arab muslims as a fifth column that clearly threatens the democratic health of the state. It's unfortunate. Israel can attempt to integrate. There are muslim judges and muslims who hold respectable posts in the IDF, but Israel is still a new state and these religious differences are deeply entrenched.

Yep, guess what the response would have been by the IRA? You think they would have less volunteers?

I dislike comparisons between the IRA conflict with Britain and the Israel-Palestine conflict. When 1200 are murdered I'm fine with shelling. I'm fine with air strikes.

Catholics and Protestants are the same religion. Jews and Muslims (Jews and muslims almost surely have more in common than Jews and Christians, theologically) are not -- especially the fundamentalism of Hamas that seeps through the society through every institution. Islam (especially fundamentalist Islam), imho, manages to combine the most dangerous, potent elements of Judaism and Christianity and does so as the youngest of the bunch having undergone the least amount of reform.

I'd be more sympathetic to the IRA/UK comparison if the IRA wanted to capture all of the UK, establish hardline Catholic rule and subjugate the Protestants.

Bibi needs his coalition partners, who actually are quite close to Meir Kahane. That's the problem here. They really are former terrorists... or terrorists that got free and to positions to further their agenda now. — ssu

For sure people like Ben Gvir are right-wing extremists.

Many if not most of the kibbutzim that Hamas attacked on 10/7 were some of the most left-leaning, pro-integrationist settlements in Israel. They would employ Palestinians, drive them to hospitals, etc. It was those Palestinians who gave Hamas the intel it needed to successfully attack. And we wonder why people like Ben Gvir rise to power.

Personally I don't have anything against Jews or Israeli Jews. I've met few, they were very smart people and actually didn't like how politics were going in their country, but naturally were very patriotic. Yes, the truth is that those lunatics dancing around in meetings and purposing new settlements in Gaza with the "voluntary removal" of Palestinians won't create empathy for the Jewish cause.

Yes, it will also increase anti-semitism as there are those that are prone to hate all people of certain group for the actions of either governments or some people (like terrorists). Hatred of Russians is another perfect example of this. But many Russians here were shocked by what Putin had done when attacking Ukraine. Hence I'm not going to for example ban Russian restaurants... they don't have President Putin's photo or the orange-black colours or "Z" up on their walls.

And what "Canary in the coal mine" are you talking about? — ssu

It's more than that, at least in the US. I don't know how things are in Finland. Plenty of countries have right wing leadership and are involved with land disputes with other countries. Yet we don't hear about those, Somalia for instance. Today 19 students from Brown decided to go on hunger strike for Gaza. We're seeing roads get blocked and airports blocked off by protesters for Palestine. IIRC there's been like an 800% in antisemitic incidents or attacks quarterly... city council meetings in California where blood libels about israel stealing palestinian organs are mentioned. numerous violent protests against the police here in the US and across the world far exceeding anything we saw opposing Russia. Public figures such as politicians and CEOs who support Israel are harassed in public and their private events crashed by screaming protesters who have begun hiring their own security services (yellow armbands.) Synagogues faced with bomb threats and graffiti here in the US.

Federal investigations have opened against schools, IIRC, in New York and California for preaching antisemitism. DEI has ignored Jews for decades, portraying them as white oppressors. Dozens of Jewish families have withdrawn their children from these areas. I could go on about this. Check out the Ami Horowitz video where he goes to a college in San Francisco:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbm4mao4-k0

Much of it occurs in educated cities, liberal areas. By "canary in the coalmine" I see it as an early sign of things to come especially if this remains unchecked.

Netanyahu has no right to speak of deradicalizing anyone. He's a radical himself. Hamas is his baby. The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is his brain child. The death of Israel will be in large part his doing. — Tzeentch

aaannd we've entered into conspiracy theory territory. Or is Netanyahu actually Meir Kahane in disguise, back from the dead?

But I guess it's convenient to portray Israel as the little guy facing off a huge powerful menace. — ssu

It very well can be; it depends on the scale. Are we talking just the IDF vs Hamas? Then obviously no. But what if it's Israel versus the muslim world/those who strive to spread Islam? Then it does start to look a bit like that.

Israel's survival should not be taken as a given. Jews know very well that the unthinkable can happen and the world will very much let it happen. Israel as a state is still a baby.

Regarding anti-semitism, the scale of it is shocking if you look at the stats. Cultural factors have me worried as well. Jews are the canary in the coal mine.

The PLA and Hamas are roughly of equal shittiness. The PLA has a martyrs fund that pays out funds to the families of those who kill Israelis. I don't hate the strategy of playing the two against each other. Both strive to destroy Israel.

Still shrugging off the intentional murder, kidnapping and rape of innocents because they happened to be born Israeli as "resistance against Israel" while palestinian victims are the greatest tragedy known to humanity? Classy.

Blame Hamas for militarizing schools, homes and hospitals and endangering their population. There was no need for destruction to be this widespread, but when an enemy does not wear a uniform and militarizes their entire population neutralizes comes at a cost. Hamas commits constant war crimes and indiscriminately murders, while Israel allows in aid and takes comprehensive steps to minimize casualties.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-thinks-the-holocaust-is-a-myth

Although in their propaganda they say that it's them who are on the verge of being wiped out. — ssu

Antisemitism has once again become normalized; Jews are seen as the oppressors by 2/3 in Gen Z and 1 in 5 in Gen Z believe the holocaust to be a myth. The First Minister of Scotland gave a holocaust address where he never once mentioned Jews. We have seen the erasure of Jewish suffering since 10/7 with everything being deserved because Jews are deemed the oppressors. Hostage posters torn down. Jewish restaurants destroyed and terrorized around the world. Some of the older Jews have compared this environment to the 1930s -- not a second holocaust, but scary.

It's almost like they don't really believe a genocide is going on.
— RogueAI

No. — Mikie

I encourage you to read Judge Sebutide's view.

https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203449

"During the oral proceedings in the present case, it was brought to the attention of the Court that South Africa, and in particular certain organs of government, have enjoyed and continue to enjoy a cordial relationship with the leadership of Hamas. If that is the case, then one would encourage South Africa as a party to these proceedings and to the Genocide Convention, to use whatever influence they might wield, to try and persuade Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release the remaining hostages, as a good will gesture. I have no doubt that such a gesture of good will would go a very long way in defusing the current conflict in Gaza."

Some might call it western paternalism to liken the palestinians (or Hamas) to children or dogs.

Once again: understand what an analogy is. Everybody understands beating a dog just makes it aggressive; this is no different than people. Why abused kids often become abusers, why dangerous neighbourhoods raise dangerous people.

And you have it reversed. Their actions result in who's better or worse. It's because Israel had no rights to the occupied territory, so armed resistance is just. It's Israel having collectively punished Gazans for decades. It's a matter of applying legal and moral principles as a result of which Israel is much worse than Hamas. Any tragedy visited in Israeli citizens is by their own making, Jews sacrificed on the Zionist altar.

I understand that you're making an analogy. In your analogies, you repeatedly metaphorize Palestinians are dogs and/or children while Israel is metaphorized as an adult.

Interesting how you describe Israel in the collective abstract, i.e. an impersonal state, while you write of the opposite side as "Gazans" i.e. actual people who are victimized.

Except I'm not. As I've stated before I don't condone all their methods. But nuance is difficult. The point is, why don't you demand Israel to deradicalise their insane colonisation policy, apartheid regime and war crime tactics? No, in your mind, Hamas and PA need to take steps to become peace loving hippies while being ethnically cleansed by their neighbours. It's an idiotic ask. When Israel stops its crimes, then you can expect these things. — Benkei

It's become apparent to me that the palestinians could do anything -- any number of beheadings, rapes, murders, tortures, paying the families of those who kill Israelis -- and you'd say something like "I don't condone this" and that would be the end of it. I think it's because you view it in terms of group dynamics -- palestinians good, israel bad -- so anyone under the palestinian banner can only be so bad given they're on the right team/side. And you seemingly compare them to dogs biting an abusive master 2 pages back.

So when a Palestinian cheers an Israeli death, it's not the same thing. If an Israeli is killed in this conflict, it's not the same thing. To interpret the violence between these two groups as morally equivalent is wilfully ignoring context. — Benkei

I've noticed that you repeatedly liken palestinians to dogs or children. Given this is the case, how can one believe that they're ready of self-rule? The international community ought to set them a proper bedtime.

But yeah, it's not the same thing when a dog kills a person versus when an adult willfully murders a child even if the child is throwing pebbles.

If that's what the palestinians are then you're right on the money. I was silly enough to assign them responsibility.

Hamas isn't the Palestine state, just like Hezbollah isn't Lebanon. — ssu

Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza and were voted in democratically. If elections were held in the WB, Hamas would win. I want to believe that Hamas is not the voice of the palestinians, but they quite likely are.

Even the "moderate" PLO has the martyr fund where they pay families of those martyrs who kill Jews.

Who is the leader of your race/religion? Who do I go to if I need to speak to, e.g., the leader of the black people? Take me to your leader so you can become blameworthy through him.

According to wikipedia Palestine is a state. If so, it is a state that Israel is at war with. It is a state that claims all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

It makes no sense to me how the Palestinians, a group which only gains its identity in the 1960s, just magically have a right to the entire west bank. And of course the Jewish inhabitants of that region will be faced with genocide if such a thing actualized.

I don't know whether states can have rights, but there has been a continual Jewish presence in the WB since antiquity which ought to live under Jewish governance. Jewish roots and claims in that land go back thousands of years and Jews refuse to be dhimmis or ethnically cleansed under Arab rule.

Where are the ancient Palestinian claims to that land?

...and then has the occupied territories, where non-Jewish people are have different laws (military law) to the Jewish people there. In addition to that, it has laws like the 'Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law', which prohibits inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that are usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen (i.e., family reunification).

But South Africa was too a democracy under the Apartheid era... to the whites. — ssu

"Occupied territories" is itself a misnomer. It implies the palestinians are entitled to 100% of the west bank which is a ridiculous idea. Is it non-Jewish people or non-Israeli citizens? My understanding is that Christians and Jews tend to get by the checkpoints better while palestinian muslims are held up at the checkpoints. In the WB Israelis are under Israeli law and Palestinians are under the law of the PA so yes the rules are different. There were fewer checkpoints before the intifatas and violence. Just today or yesterday the IDF did an operation in Tulkarm in the WB and found 400 explosives. It would be ridiculous to treat Israeli civilians like Palestinian ones security-wise.

Israeli arabs have equal rights under Israeli law. They are represented in government and hold high places across the society. Given that Jews were ethnically cleansed across the arab world ("judenrein"), what do you think of the comparison between the arab world and nazism?

Were black south african allowed to vote under apartheid? did they have political representation? the apartheid comparison is ridiculous.

Judaism is an ethnicity... it's an ethno-religion. It accepts converts but does not actively seek them out. There are many different sects.

Would be Assad or Raisi be representative for Arabs? When Assad kills 500,000 of his own people does that represent Arabs around the world? Netanyahu is the head of state in Israel and nothing more. He is not a rabbi. He holds no religious post. Jews are not blameworthy through his actions.

Personally I'd have a hard time living by a "master morality" that values noble birth, physical strength/size... if you have a disability in that society or you're of low birth or God forbid both you're just kinda fucked. You ever see 300? I can hardly blame that cripple for betraying the Spartans. What is his role in that society?

Judaism has a nice mix of slave and master elements to it imo. It is Christ who goes full throttle slave morality. There is something quite terrifying and powerful about slave morality. But the Church has tempered Christ's original message.

If the objectivity part of Judaism is what supposedly leads to hate and resentment then there's no need to single it out among the Abrahamics... Christianity and Islam contain objective claims as well as well as many other religious systems.

You are equivocating a people with a religious movement. I said the Jewish people. This is a racial group, it just happens to correspond also to the members of the Jewish religious group, but I was not referring to the members of the Jewish religious group, but to the racial group.

Who other than Netanyahu speaks for the Jewish people and to be more pertinent, who conducts foreign policy, provides security for this group? — Punshhh

Judaism is both a religion and a people, but not a race. One can't convert to a race, but one can convert to Judaism.

Who speaks for black people? Who speaks for the Arabs? No one has appointed Netanyahu "spokesperson for the Jews."

The vast majority of world Jewry did not vote for Netanyahu. There is a dangerous phenomenon emerging where Jews across the world are being targeted simply for being Jews due to this idea that Netanyahu represents all Jews.

But 85-90% of Jews are zionists and zionism is heavily embedded in Jewish culture. Jews will fight for their state because they're all too familiar with what happens without one.

My point was directed to Punshhh who stated that Netanyahu represents the Jewish people.

Israel has a diversity of parties in its Parliament and has Arab muslims represented on its judiciary as well. Israel has a considerable minority arab muslim population as well as christians and druze.

Which assertion in particular?

Judaism is also a religion with various sects/denominations. Within those sects/denominations there is leadership/authorities.

Then who does represent the Jewish people here? Ask someone in a neighbouring state who represents the Jewish people here?

Or do we have a vacuum of leadership/representation of the Jewish people? — Punshhh

Who represents the Protestants? Or the Muslims? Does the President of Iran represent the Shia and are all Shias answerable for his actions?

You've glossed over what i've said. Hamas is an interloper, not an actual Government and Ismail is not an actual head-of-state. I did point this out... — AmadeusD

I very much consider Hamas as the actual government of Gaza. If it's not Hamas, who is it? Haniyeh may not be head of a state, but he is head of a government. Hamas rules Gaza, not Israel. There were no Jews in Gaza prior to 10/7.

I find this wanting of fact. I do not see any clear-cut policy whereby this is actually happening. Particularly given the Israeli propensity to literally refer to Palestinians as animals and worthy of eradication.. — AmadeusD

They do not. Netanyahu has drawn a clear distinction between the wicked Hamas and innocent Palestinians (who are not to be intentionally targeted). The IDF has called off attacks due to civilians being in the area and there is footage of this. Yes Israel will target houses and hospitals because Hamas will militarize houses and hospitals, but Israel will provide aid to innocent Palestinians.

This doesn't have anything to do with which individuals are liable to be attacked. But i understand the emotional behind that fact. It just isn't what i've asked about. — AmadeusD

palestinian civilians are in danger because hamas wears no uniforms and blends in with the civilian population. Any IDF soldier who intentionally targets civilians is guilty of war crimes, but targeting houses which contain weapons and hamas operatives is not a war crime.

Not trying to stir anything up, but surely this kind of thinking also exculpates all Palestinians who would not be represented by Hamas? — AmadeusD

There are innocent Palestinians and there are guilty Palestinians. Some legitimate targets of war, others not. Israel does not indiscriminately target all Palestinians; Hamas will consider all Israelis legitimate targets for violence/death/kidnapping/rape.

I'm not pretending you don't see the distinction, but in the Israel case, Netanyahu is the actual head-of-state, not an interloper, which Hamas can be seen as. — AmadeusD

Netanyahu is the head of state, Hamas is the governing organization of Gaza. Ismail Haniyeh is the leader.

Surely, the proportionality question, comes, in some sense, down to who is actually liable to attack?

This is an armed conflict. Both sides attack. Hamas has launched thousands of rockets into Israel since 10/7.

As I see it, Israel has already lost and Netanyahu, who represents the Jewish people, in this, has blood on his hands. — Punshhh

Netanyahu does not represent the Jewish people. He is the prime minister of a state, not a religious authority.

Everyone has built on top of everyone else because buildings become dilapidated and lands change hands whether through sales or conquering. Israel preserves Muslim holy sites (the main ones, at least); fundamentalist Muslims have a very poor track record for preserving the holy sites of other groups. There are many mosques in Israel and virtually no synagogues in the Arab world.

And those Arab towns are built on Jewish ruins.

I also don't see an Israel that doesn't fully destroy Arab history and culture in greater Palestine — Benkei

wym by this? Arab culture or Islam? Do you see Israel banning falafel, tzatziki and hummus or Arab architecture? Or will zionist imperialists readily raze muslim holy sites (like the dome of the rock which Israel protected against Hamas's rockets) and build their Temple on its ruins? Like how dome of the rock lies on top of the ruins of the second temple.